using legs/feet

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[Paula Lydon]

~~Hi all!

Tell me, if you're training and somewhere in the movement your leg/foot naturally finds intself in a position to trip, sweep, clip, lock or pin your partner's leg/foot do you take advantage of that or feel that you've messed up and this is 'wrong' in Aikido practice?

:ai: :ki:

[jxa127]

Hi Paula,

During my most recent rank test, I used my leg to trip my uke. We were doing jiyu waza (single attacker, any attack) and my initial blending movement set me up for a trip, so I took it.

I don't see anything wrong with this as long as one's uke can take the fall.

Regards,

-Drew

[DaveO]

Hi Paula!

I suppose using the leg to trip/sweep an attacker isn't 'correct' in shin-shin (ironic, don't you think? :D ), but I've never exactly been one to worry about what 'correct' is (heh heh heh). We don't do them for kumi-waza of course; but I've been known to drop the odd leg in during randori and other forms of free practice. The thing I've noticed is, this may be a bit of a downfall in many dojos' training systems - since the legs are largely ignored in training, the aikidoist may develop a bit of a blind spot towards them, concentrating on the torso and arms, forgetting that two very versatile and powerful limbs are within range as well.

I've done this one a couple times during randori: as uke comes in, I slide forward so my fore leg crosses behind his forward leg, while performing a sort of deep sayu. I lower the forward leg; the bending knee causes his knee to bend, and with uke already moving to deal with my extended arm, he finds one of his pins suddenly gone and winds up staring at the ceiling.

Kinda hard to describe; but it works to a certain extent; sort of a variation of the 'high-low-high' philosophy of attack in some forms of martial arts.

Cheers! :)

[ChristianBoddum]

Hi Dave !

If I get it right ?

after tenkan you should be in position to

bend ukes knee - kind of collapse by bending your knee into his knee from the back side.

If this is the one - I do it too, but not often,I know it's there and it works,that's enough for me,I'll sometimes demonstrate it but it locks me too so it's only an option.

yours - Chr.B.

[ChristianBoddum]

By the way -

I sometimes try to sneak in a legsweep,

but find it very hard to get away with on good dokas,they seem to stand in a way that

makes it hard to make legsweeps work !

[akiy]

Hi Paula,

I often use my legs and feet for kuzushi purposes. Last night, I did a pretty interesting reversal on our senior student by affecting his ankle...

-- Jun

[MikeE]

If it's there I use it. Like Jun alluded to it can be a great way to get someone moving the way you want or to position for a nice koshinage.

[L. Camejo]

Interesting.

When I train Judo, leg sweeps are par for the course for kuzushi etc, but when I train Aikido I think the idea is to execute technique by utilizing correct body positioning, timing, kuzushi and tsukuri. If I end up using my legs to sweep to make a technique work (which happens every now and then, especially in hard randori :)), I consider it a personal loss, since if I am doing things correctly I should not need to rely on leg locking to make my technique effective.

Having said this though, I believe it is unwise to remain unaware of the application of the feet in applying Aikido techniqe. When teaching things along a more "self defence" slant I remind people that the legs are available for application of kuzushi, atemi waza and whatever else one may think of.

I guess I just tend to separate the two, attempting to truly internalise and apply a technique during kata and randori without having to rely on my legs to do what my positioning and balance breaking should have done in the first place.

Have also seen what happens when an applied leg does not work as well, even more embarassing as Tori is now on one leg and not in the best place to maintain his own balance and centre and Uke takes Tori to the floor instead. :)

Just some thoughts.

L.C.:ai::ki:

[PhilJ]

Using something to 'make a technique work' does imply something may be missing, and I think that applies to any body part(s) you choose to use. :)

I agree with the rest: if it's there, use it, so long as the technique follows the basic principles of aikido.

*Phil

[Bogeyman]

I tend to use my legs during takedowns more than most people that I train with but it could be a result of my stance being too wide. I have studied othe arts that do use sweeps and leg throws though.

E

[kokyu]

Hi Paula,

I often use my legs and feet for kuzushi purposes. Last night, I did a pretty interesting reversal on our senior student by affecting his ankle...

-- Jun

I recently attended a seminar where the use of legs was pointed out to me - actually, it was a bit of a revelation... I am hoping to extend this thread to 'catalog' the use for legs for kuzushi...

1) When doing shihonage, I was cautioned not to step forward with my inner leg (the leg closest to uke) unless uke was off-balanced, otherwise she could just sweep out her leg and knock me off balance
2) When doing ikkyo omote, I was cautioned not to step forward too early as uke could grab hold (or strike) my inner leg and cause me to lose balance
2) I was also shown a variation of kokyunage, where tori would knee uke at the back of the knee, to make uke lose balance
3) Another type used the hands.. from shomenuchi, tori would block and then suddenly drop down, using the hands in a scissoring motion to cut the knees and ankles of uke in opposing directions, causing uke to fall down

Would appreciate others sharing in detail on how they use the legs (or hands) on uke's leg(s) to effect kuzushi... Thanks :)

[SeiserL]

IMHO, if just during training under a Sensei, use it if its part of the technique demonstrated. Initially I try to rigidly stay within the box or curriculum offered.

If it presents itself during more free form practice, then by all means.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

The way I was taught, irimi and kokyu nage movements are both usually "tripping" in a sense, as nage gets bent over your thigh by the arm/upper body movement - one over the inside, one over the outside - as you step way into or through their space. If you want these moves to really work, a lot of the time it seems the leg has to be there to trip them, as knocking someone over by just pushing your arm into someones face/neck area seems like a pretty low percentage finesse move. Coincidentally, I just visited a dojo where someone asked me whether I did judo because he wasn't used to being bent over the leg so extremely during these movements.

At my home dojo, we also practiced a step between the legs from behind and extend the leg 'tripping' movement. I've never seen stepping on and pinning the foot in Aikido. I have seen the shin pushing trip mentioned above rarely, and occasionally techniques where you squat down and manipulate the lower leg with the hands. "Aiki nage" is a standard technique where you trip uke with your whole body.

I think reaps usually aren't considered good Aikido because tipping over while on one foot represents too much jeopardy to one's balance. It probably wouldn't be a good technique for multi attackers and I think that is sort of a litmus test for Aikido techniques. Since Aikido doesn't have ground fighting, a high premium is placed on remaining standing.

[kokyu]

If it presents itself during more free form practice, then by all means.

From the comments, it appears that tripping is more of a randori thing than a technique that's part of the curriculum... I've never seen it in the books... but I thought some Sensei might do it fairly regularly as part of their 'trademark' move... for example, when I was demonstrating the scissoring technique described above, I was asked if I had seen a particular Sensei in action...

BTW, I recently purchased 'Aikido Weapons Techniques' and wanted to thank you for co-writing the interesting book... only thing I wondered was why the ken suburi was not included :(

[SeiserL]

BTW, I recently purchased 'Aikido Weapons Techniques' and wanted to thank you for co-writing the interesting book... only thing I wondered was why the ken suburi was not included :(
Thanks for the kind word.
We (Tenshinkai) don't practice the ken-suburi much and had a very limited length/space available to us. We had to be more representative than inclusive. Did our best to hopefully provide a useful resource.

[raul rodrigo]

I think reaps usually aren't considered good Aikido because tipping over while on one foot represents too much jeopardy to one's balance. It probably wouldn't be a good technique for multi attackers and I think that is sort of a litmus test for Aikido techniques. Since Aikido doesn't have ground fighting, a high premium is placed on remaining standing.

I've seen video of Seigo Yamaguchi shihan, Tissier and Yasuno all doing irimi nage with an accompanying leg sweep. Doesnt seem to jeopardize their balance at all.

[L. Camejo]

Hi Raul,

Any chance of those videos being available online?

One does not necessarily lose balance when doing a foot sweep but one does stand on one leg which creates a much greater chance for unbalance and also causes one to stop moving until the other foot is planted. As indicated before, having the foot planted while doing a sweep is not too good for multiple attacker training since you become static for the time it takes to completed the sweep and open to attack by another person.

Lastly, many techniques if executed with poor posture (whether one sweeps or have both feet planted) can result in balance disruption if the Uke is resisting and trying to reveal the holes in Tori's technique. Happens a lot when folks hold onto their partner and pull while falling for irimi nage for example.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

[raul rodrigo]

Any chance of those videos being available online?:


Not that I know of, but I'll see what I can dig up. I agree that doing a technique with one foot off the ground is in general a bad idea, balance wise. Its just that there are sensei who break these rules without much effort. I can't do the leg-sweep irimi nage, either, but my teacher can. Its something i'm still working on, among many many things.

I have also seen film of Saotome engaging in a randori and about to throw one uke with irimi nage when another uke attacks from behind. Saotome stops the irimi nage motion, takes out the second uke with a karate side kick, and then completes the irimi nage. Not something I'd recommend for your plain vanilla aikidoka, but interesting just the same.

[kokyu]

Not that I know of, but I'll see what I can dig up. I agree that doing a technique with one foot off the ground is in general a bad idea, balance wise. Its just that there are sensei who break these rules without much effort. I can't do the leg-sweep irimi nage, either, but my teacher can. Its something i'm still working on, among many many things.

I have also seen film of Saotome engaging in a randori and about to throw one uke with irimi nage when another uke attacks from behind. Saotome stops the irimi nage motion, takes out the second uke with a karate side kick, and then completes the irimi nage. Not something I'd recommend for your plain vanilla aikidoka, but interesting just the same.

Raul, I'd also be interested in seeing a clip as well... :p

I think your second comment probably hits on why certain sensei do leg sweeps/trips (or in this case a karate kick)... I'm guessing they are use their training in other martial arts to create a 'mixed' technique.. I'm not a judoka (although I hope to try judo a few years from now), but I understand there is a group of judo waza called ashi barai which focuses on foot sweeps... adding it to kokyu ho/irimi nage could add oomph to the technique...

Having said this though, there is this interesting article on foot techniques (http://www.aikidofaq.com/philosophy/a_section32.html) from Hombu Dojo that was pointed out in an older thread

[kokyu]

There's also mention of taking ukemi from ashi barai in this excerpt from Kanai Sensei's unpublished book (http://www.aikidoonline.com/) on Technical Aikido

In addition, a certain ki society mentions ashi barai, ashi sukui and zenpo-nage ashi-tori

[raul rodrigo]

In this clip from the 2003 Boulder seminar, Tissier does the irimi nage with a sweep at the 1:30 mark and then again at the 1:50 mark. His sweep is relatively high and goes for both legs. From what I recall of the Yamaguchi version of the same waza, the sweep was lower, more subtle, and went for only one foot. Tissier's first art was judo after all and he should be comfortable with sweeps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax-_dria6XY&mode=related&search=

[L. Camejo]

In this clip from the 2003 Boulder seminar, Tissier does the irimi nage with a sweep at the 1:30 mark and then again at the 1:50 mark. His sweep is relatively high and goes for both legs. From what I recall of the Yamaguchi version of the same waza, the sweep was lower, more subtle, and went for only one foot. Tissier's first art was judo after all and he should be comfortable with sweeps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax-_dria6XY&mode=related&search=
Saw the vid. It was pretty much what I expected, an application of osoto gari (major outer reap) while executing irimi nage (aigamae ate). We do this a lot in Jujutsu class. Works well if Tori has total control of Uke's balance by fully controlling the head and spine, but then if this is the case one would not need a foot sweep to throw Uke anyway. If one does not have good kuzushi this technique is easily countered however, either with a variety of what some folks call kokyu nage (e.g. sumi otoshi) or via the use of a sacrifice technique like Yoko Otoshi (in a Judo/Jujutsu context). This also applies if the waza was attempted purely Judo style also.

From my perspective (being Shodokan where Tomiki was strict to keep Judo and Aikido waza separate) the application of the foot sweep here is really an application of Judo/Jujutsu waza and not Aiki waza. However in a free practice environment I guess it is applicable and the opportunity does appear quite regularly. In our method the need for the sweep is negated by deep, penetrating kuzushi at the point of touching Uke, placing him completely off balance by the time he completes his attacking step. In this case the sweep just slows the technique down as Uke's own intertia is often enough to effect a throw.

I often use the counters I outlined above in both Aikido and Jujutsu to ensure that folks maintain proper footing and posture when executing throws like Irimi Nage and not get taken down into a grappling position on the floor or get caught in their partner's guard.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[Ron Tisdale]

Mainline Daito ryu uses sweeps as well...and they are definately aiki in their use of them. Some require very precise timing. As always, proper kuzushi is key against larger, stronger partners.

Best,
Ron

[raul rodrigo]

I agree with Larry C that the Tissier osoto gari cum irimi nage looks more like a judo waza inserted into an aikido movement--not something that looks "very aiki" in and of itself. The Yamaguchi version that I have seen, on the other hand, looks pretty clean and "sweet," if I can call it that. From what I have seen, a lot of what Yamaguchi did had that quality of clean, effortless elegance.

[kokyu]

Mainline Daito ryu uses sweeps as well...and they are definately aiki in their use of them. Some require very precise timing. As always, proper kuzushi is key against larger, stronger partners.

Best,
Ron

This might have been asked somewhere else, but where do we draw the line between something being 'aiki' and 'not aiki'?

Also, does Omiya Shiro Sensei's book 'The Hidden Roots of Aikido: Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu' cover sweeps?

This is off tangent... but I was having dinner with a shihan some time ago and he claimed that students of kobudo try to preserve the art, rather than evolve it... but I don't think Aikido is a kobudo, so it's got to evolve right? But which way? By integrating techniques from other arts such as Judo and Karate? By integrating within Aikido itself (which we can see with groups that fuse aspects of the Ki Society and Aikikai)?

[Ron Tisdale]

Well, just as some discussion points:
This might have been asked somewhere else, but where do we draw the line between something being 'aiki' and 'not aiki'?
I really like to avoid drawing the line based on behavior...I think of aiki as more a set of physical principles. Different groups define those principles differently. You have to decide for yourself which groups physical practice embodies the principles you are most interested in.

There was a thread on e-budo many years ago that tried to define Aiki...it was a very interesting thread...but no real consensus was reached.
Also, does Omiya Shiro Sensei's book 'The Hidden Roots of Aikido: Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu' cover sweeps?
I would not look to that book myself for the definition of either Daito ryu or Aiki...just my opinion. One source I would consider would be the Hiden Mokoroku material available on DVD and video from the Mainline, under Kondo Sensei. There are other equally good or even better sources...some are not publicly available.
... By integrating within Aikido itself (which we can see with groups that fuse aspects of the Ki Society and Aikikai)? ...
I think individuals are constantly performing this sort of function when they get out and cross train with other groups...and I think it is a good thing, even if it doesn't officially lead to a merging of organizations.

Best,
Ron

[raul rodrigo]

This might have been asked somewhere else, but where do we draw the line between something being 'aiki' and 'not aiki'?

Its hard to deal with the larger issue of what is aiki versus "not aiki," so I would prefer to just refer to the specific clip of Tissier I was talking about. Here the sweep seems to be an afterthought to a waza that was already on the way. To my eyes, and perhaps to Ron T's, it doesn't seem integral to what Tissier was doing.

In fact that kind of osoto gari could conceivably arise out of a situation where an uke locks his shoulders and neck and tries to resist irimi nage, so therefore nage takes his balance at a lower point, where uke is not expecting it. In other words, it would be an adjustment to a mistake or hitch in a technique (the way we are taught to kneel in the event of a bobble in a shiho nage, for instance), and not an integral part of one whole technique.

In the case of the Yamaguchi irimi nage with a sweep, the whole waza was a seamless flow of energy from start to finish, and you couldn't separate the movement of the arm cutting down from that of the foot gently sweeping back. That is what I meant when I said that this version seemed "more aiki" -- to my eyes, at any rate.


best,


R

[L. Camejo]

From my experience a considerable amount of waza found in Judo, Jujutsu and other arts can be applied using the principles of Aiki (kokyu ryoku et al.). In this light the difference may not be one of particular techniques per se, but one of "how" these techniques are executed in Aiki arts as against Ju arts for example. This in itself of course may be a gross generalization.

I think being a very high ranking Judoka who saw Aikido as filling a technical void that was left when Kano created Judo (and the randori method in particular) out of the Kito and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, Tomiki was adamant to maintain a degree of technical separation between the 2 arts (ma ai being a primary element in this). This can be seen in the diagram on the Shodokan site here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html. As a result we are taught to avoid certain things that are normally found in Judo especially when it comes to our own type of randori and shiai. Things like grabbing of the gi and using the leg to reap or sweep is not allowed, encouraged or found anywhere in the technical syllabus for randori, shiai or kata training. Needless to say, ne waza and ground grappling are also not allowed since ending up on the floor is what happens if your Aiki waza fails. The solution to the ne waza problem is to have better posture and overall technical ability so you don't end up on the floor.

Having said the above I have heard that in Ueshiba M.'s Aikido there were times when sweeps may have been used and there is even a not so common understanding that there were also ground grappling techniques that Ueshiba M. taught to certain students as part of his Aikido.

So to be honest I am not sure what the consensus is for Aikido in general regarding sweeps, I can only go by what we are told is proper in the view of our Technical Director and Shihan Division. Having some experience in Jujutsu however where leg sweeps are a staple I can seen why Tomiki would leave this out of his approach to Aikido.

Just my 5 cents.

LC:ai::ki:

[Ron Tisdale]

Excellent post Larry.

In terms of Aikido, and teaching that, it can be very easy (read not the best path, perhaps) to supplement bad Aikido technique with, in no particular order, judo, karate, systema, atemi, etc. The systems that do this are what they are...sometimes these things work, sometimes they don't...but I think they can be problematic in terms of defining "Best" Aikido.

Then you have the varients of Daito ryu...many of which already have the elements of striking, sweeping, kuzushi, relaxation that many seek in aikido but find in other arts. So some will "go back to the source" to find these things. Whether in a pre-war style of aikido or in Daito ryu.

Then you have those wonderful folks who seem to be able to pull waza out of thin air...their aikido works without these "additions"...

All of the above may or may not have that extra something special, that is the topic of many threads here of late.

You pays your money, and you takes your chances...

Best,
Ron

[kokyu]

Having said the above I have heard that in Ueshiba M.'s Aikido there were times when sweeps may have been used and there is even a not so common understanding that there were also ground grappling techniques that Ueshiba M. taught to certain students as part of his Aikido.

That's true... I've seen some of the older shihan trap their uke with a ground lock (of course, we never practiced that last part)...there's also a short discussion on ground technique in Sensei Phong's book on Advanced Aikido.

[xuzen]

I am confused... when you guys says sweep, what exactly do you mean. In technical judo, a sweep would be something like Deashi Barai. Osoto Gari is not technically a sweep, more like a reap. A sweep can also mean a transitional move from guard to mount. So what sweep are we talking about again?

P/S wrt to irimi-nage/osoto-gari similarity.
Last Sunday, I attended a judo kata clinic. The guest coach showed us how to do Osoto-Gari as kata intended. He said all this while we only think of O-Gari as reaping the leg. He showed us a version where we need to get in, tori's hip getting under uke's hip, then lifting it up while resping uke's leg under him. He said the most important thing is not the reaping action but to generate kuzushi by lifting uke's hip.

This version is how we have been doing our irimi-nage in my aikido dojo all this while (of course without the reaping action). In my heart I smiled... I know we have so much in common.

Boon.

[Ron Tisdale]

Osoto Gari is not technically a sweep, more like a reap. A sweep can also mean a transitional move from guard to mount. So what sweep are we talking about again?
Mainline Daito ryu has a waza that uses a reap much like Osoto Gari. Uke is strongly off-balanced to the right rear corner, and a stepping motion of "changing the feet" is used to deliver the reaping action. It can lead to quite a strong throw.

More in line with how you describe sweeps is in something like shihonage, where on a number two, pivoting, technique, you use your pivoting leg to sweep uke's feet from under them while applying shiho. VERY nice... ;)

Best,
Ron

[kokyu]

Excellent post Larry.

In terms of Aikido, and teaching that, it can be very easy (read not the best path, perhaps) to supplement bad Aikido technique with, in no particular order, judo, karate, systema, atemi, etc. The systems that do this are what they are...sometimes these things work, sometimes they don't...but I think they can be problematic in terms of defining "Best" Aikido.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding... but can I say there will be times when we didn't off-balance uke enough, or uke is particularly strong, and we need to supplement with atemi (or some type of leg sweep)? It could be a reflection of lack of skill, but then again... it's not easy to be perfect...

[L. Camejo]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding... but can I say there will be times when we didn't off-balance uke enough, or uke is particularly strong, and we need to supplement with atemi (or some type of leg sweep)? It could be a reflection of lack of skill, but then again... it's not easy to be perfect...The way I look at it is like this, if one is practicing Aikido in an Aikido dojo and there are certain technical requirements for Aikido waza (e.g. no leg sweeps) then if one uses a leg sweep to supplement bad technique then it means that one's Aikido waza is poor and more practice and study is required.

In the case of dealing with attacks out in the real world it does not matter whether your waza is dojo demo perfect, the objective is to survive, in this case anything goes. There may be some who practice randori in this manner where some extra things are allowed to supplement bad technique. Though this sort of training reveals one's options (e.g. atemi, leg sweeps etc.) in the event that there is poor tsukuri, it does not encourage the development of really high quality Aikido waza that is capable of functioning repeatedly in such scenarios. In this case one develops a crutch that is used to support one of the failed legs of Aiki waza. Imho one would be best served to train so that the leg is strong and still have the option of atemi, sweeps etc. if it becomes really necessary.

Just my 5 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[kokyu]

That was a beautiful reply. Thanks :)

[kokyu]

After some thought, I guess it all depends on whether the leg sweep or punch looked like it was meant to compensate for some weakness, or it really looked like part of the technique (notice I'm not saying that leg sweeps are wrong)

For example, some people might use atemi (the punch) to add oomph to tori's attempt to unbalance uke, but it looks completely blended with the technique, so it looks natural... whereas others might use it *after* trying to guide a well-balanced uke downwards... and finding she doesn't seem to want to move... so it looks like an afterthought...

Taking a leaf from Raul's comments on Yamaguchi Sensei :p