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Unregistered
09-16-2003, 11:56 AM
I'm just wondering about this cos my friend brought up the subject of "ki" today.

In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares... much like in Bruce lee's Dragon... Now is this a coinsidence, dreams are strange things and maybe just the fact that I have seen Dragon and have also heard rumours/opinion that Bruce lee died an early death cos he couldn't control his "ki" power...

I have a Christian friend who says "ki" power comes from the devil and is evil... but why do we all have it inside us assuming you believe we were created by God??

Conversly to the bruce lee arguement O sensei was 86 when he died and must have done a lot of exercise to build his "ki" power

What does everyone think about this?

twilliams423
09-16-2003, 01:51 PM
The concept of evil and the devil is exactly that.... a human, intellectual concept. It "exists", as such, in our minds.

Ki,subtle universal energy, is outside the realm of what we think about things. It isn't restricted to what you want to think it is.

Is there a relationship between ki and mental energy, thoughts, dreams, etc.? Sure.

Everything dies. That's natural. Just like ki. Death is not evil. It's just in the nature of the way things are.

Don't worry about it. Enjoy Aikido.

akiy
09-16-2003, 02:02 PM
This thread moved to the Spiritual forum.

-- Jun

ChristianBoddum
09-16-2003, 02:12 PM
Hi !

Regarding the bad dreams,

you have the option of prayer before sleep,

I sometimes pray specifically for the way my dreamlife works when I feel it's needed,

you could try it.

The issue of Ki/Chi is a little complex,

your christian friend may refer to the chinese concept which is different than the japanese (you could read "Ki in daily life by K.Tohei).

Extending Ki in training needs not be related to any internal energy/spirit that

is part of the Chinese styles,

this I say based on the little I know now,

please someone correct me if I'm far off.

twilliams423
09-16-2003, 03:02 PM
Again, Chinese concept of ch'i, Japanese concept of Ki, whether it's Tohei Sensei or whomever, are in the conceptual sphere.

Primal ch'i is one. Its manifestations are innunerable.

It's not that you can't talk about it in intellectual terms, because obviously you can. The problem is when you confuse the words and ideas with subtle reality.

Directly experience ki/ch'i every moment. More words mean less.

ChristianBoddum
09-16-2003, 03:53 PM
Tom !

If you are a non-believer say it !

When you accept Christ as Lord guess who shows up shotly after to annoy you ?

The devil exists and he's an asshole but

he is to be ignored,he's worth no attention,

and he hates believers.

I have speak up for my saviourer.

The devil can hate me for it,that's fine with me.

yours sincerely.

PhilJ
09-16-2003, 04:00 PM
See if you still have the dreams a month from now.

I think ki is ki, there is no inherent 'good' or 'evil'. If anyone tells you otherwise, you're hearing an opinion, a perception. Your friend perceives 'ki' to be evil, and that's fine -- incorrect, but okay, because the universe doesn't care about that sort of thing. Trees don't care what we think, neither do rocks, rivers, planets, etc. It's all around us at all times.

Your friend may be confusing 'ki' with magic or something else supernatural. Get him/her on the mat (literally or figuratively) and then demonstrate ki using a blend against an attack, see if that has any effect.

That, at least, is my experience of 'ki'.

*Phil

twilliams423
09-16-2003, 05:19 PM
The sun shines, the farmer's plants grow. The sun shines, it hits my face, I lose a chunk of flesh to basal cell carcinoma. The sun shines, and reflects off the mooon. Is the sun good, bad, neutral, a gift from God,a manifestation of evil? Is it the natural world expressing itself? In a relative sense, we can ascribe a value to all our experiences. We can certainly be convinced of inherent truth of our perceptions and understanding or not. This a matter of spiritual growth, not belief.

Largo
09-16-2003, 08:14 PM
I think the misunderstanding is on what "ki" is. Ki is not witchcraft, magic, etc. According to various forms of asian medicine (such as acupuncture) it is one of your body's systems.

Couldn't adrenaline be more evil because of what people do when they're upset or angry?

"Ki" in the japanese language is really not all that mystical, and in fact pops up in every day conversation.

Ghost Fox
09-17-2003, 08:20 AM
I think the misunderstanding is on what "ki" is. Ki is not witchcraft, magic, etc. According to various forms of asian medicine (such as acupuncture) it is one of your body's systems.
If you do some research into the Western Magickal tradition, they have similar concepts to ki. Ceremonial magick speaks of extending one's personal power, when casting a circle of protection, and that one can use the Athame (ritual dagger) as a focus for ones power during magickal workings. If ki is a universal concept then it makes sense that other cultures would have learned how to utilize the phenomenon to their own devices, although maybe differently than they did in Asia. IMHO, animistic spiritual traditions such as Wicca and Taoism probably have more in common with Ueshiba brand of spirituality and Aikido than Zen Buddhism.

Although ki (qi) travels through our vessels via meridian according to Chinese medical theory, ki (qi) is manifest in all things. That's if you believe all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo.

SeiserL
09-17-2003, 01:07 PM
IMHO, Ki is energy. As we exercise in Ki the energy flows through our bodies. The clear circularion of Ki creates health, while the blockage creates illness. If you are holding tension in your body from past trauma or fear you may be blocking ki with your body or character armor (Wilhelm Reich) and that blockage can create stress and even bad dreams. Lee had a lot of demons psychologically he was running from. In other words, IMHO, Ki training can gives us the opportunity to face all the demons that are chasing us.

Gotta agree with Tom somewhat, while I accept there is evil in this world, most of what we label evil is just the fear we create within our own minds that we don't want to accept responsibility and accoutnability for.

Ki is life. Life is not evil. What you do with it, just may be though. The question may not necessarily be is Ki power bad or evil for you, but rather is what you are doing with your life energy (Ki) in the best interest of all or just in the service of our individual selfish ego.

Largo
09-18-2003, 12:44 AM
If you do some research into the Western Magickal tradition, they have similar concepts to ki.
Really? I guess you learn something every day. With all of the negative associations that magic/witchcraft have with them, I'm not sure that's something that I would tell most people, especially religious fundamentalists.
Although ki (qi) travels through our vessels via meridian according to Chinese medical theory, ki (qi) is manifest in all things. That's if you believe all the metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
Agreed. That was the point I was trying to make. I believe that ki is a natural force which can affect us physically (and spiritually...but that's a post for a different time). As a 'natural' force, I wouldn't really call it good or bad. That's why I made the comparison to adrenaline. At times, it serves useful purposes (extra energy, focus, etc) but also can be negative as well (hyper-agression, causing ulcers, insomnia, etc).

Thalib
09-18-2003, 07:53 PM
The only way one could start to understand the concept of Ki is when one searches to unite with oneself. In other words, know oneself.

When one does this, one will find things that one wouldn't like within oneself. One will find one's own demons to battle with. The greatest enemy is oneself.

I have been battling my own demons lately. Drove me to depression. I'm not saying that I have resolved my own problems, but at least the way has been shown to me.

I've learned that when I practice Aikido, it's not about defeating the other person, it's not about learning techniques, it's about learning about oneself. It's about becoming acquainted (did I spell that correctly?) with the stranger that one sees in the mirror each morning.

You, Anonymous one, could explain to your Christian friend that Ki is as natural as the gravity that holds us down to earth. Ki is a gift from God to humans, it is part of His creation. Do not fear it, embrace it.

tedehara
09-20-2003, 09:24 AM
I'm just wondering about this cos my friend brought up the subject of "ki" today.

In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares... much like in Bruce lee's Dragon... Now is this a coinsidence, dreams are strange things and maybe just the fact that I have seen Dragon and have also heard rumours/opinion that Bruce lee died an early death cos he couldn't control his "ki" power...

I have a Christian friend who says "ki" power comes from the devil and is evil... but why do we all have it inside us assuming you believe we were created by God??

Conversly to the bruce lee arguement O sensei was 86 when he died and must have done a lot of exercise to build his "ki" power

What does everyone think about this?After seeing Bruce Lee's film, perhaps your subconcious believed you needed to have these "nightmares" as a rite of passage.
A man visits his doctor. He swings his arm around and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor replies, "So don't do that!"If you keep having these disturbing dreams and relate them directly to these ki exercises, stop doing these ki exercises.

Bruce Lee died a young man because he died young. Morihei Ueshiba died an old man because he died old. What counts is how they lived their lives.

The concept of ki or chi is foreign to the Christian belief system. Besides which, this concept is so broad, as others have pointed out, you need to define your terms and references in order to explain accurately, what you are talking about.

Pretoriano
09-22-2003, 10:18 PM
The closest meaning is of course "Spirit" that forms, interlace and interpenetrates everything that exist. Close to is "free will" and next step is "grace" wich is created by the concious armonious use of energy and forces available by "Habit" not by casual exeption.

I think theres no room anymore for to consider "evil things we dont understand for todays people, it was ok somewhere in the past

In my very humble opinion energy and spirit are so natural, pure and cristaline that man tries to put some color on it, add some racional attributes and elements that fit their present level of think, being and live concept for better undrstanding.

Why talk about fundamentalist? look at their myths, secrecies, chimes, gossips, herarchical closed circles. Whoom of you will let these people tell you the reasons why ki is evil or not.

Praetorian



"I have never been contained except I made the prison

PhilJ
09-23-2003, 06:33 AM
In my very humble opinion energy and spirit are so natural, pure and cristaline that man tries to put some color on it, add some racional attributes and elements that fit their present level of think, being and live concept for better undrstanding.
Agreed. Understanding is very limited if only used via what one is capable of perceiving; there is usually something more than what we can see.

*Phil

Pretoriano
09-24-2003, 09:25 PM
Agreed. Understanding is very limited if only used via what one is capable of perceiving; there is usually something more than what we can see.

*Phil
Yes Mr. Phillip, but at least we have our perception to know whats going on in "our world" and in the World, the Primordial here I think is to plenty accept that we sometimes percive "wrong" consecuently thinking and acting wrong, nobody I know escapes from this.

Of course constantly redefining and refinning the way we Percieve

takes all life, the thing is to be suficiently Humble, self controlled and flexible to deal properly with facts, perception, thinking, decisioning and acts.

Like the art of Aikido were youre in your Right to call Earth or Universe to control and redirect/reversal chaotical innercial or concious forces.

It is a personal solely decision to chain violence and desorder adding points to the big summatory of world chaos.

It is not to believe in Peace and Harmony, it is to Act every time without dismay knowing that rewards is another illusion.

Try fear: "no fear inner changes" no fear physical confrontation, no fear enemies, no fear right perception...

Try above the opposites like in chess board:

"white pieces are winning, no wait black ones are winning...and so on, see the game, realise that never changes...

blabla

Hope you dont find my way of thinking too twarted.

Praetorian

Caracas, Venezuela

ian
09-25-2003, 09:50 AM
Unfortunately much of organised religion demonises other religions to prevent people 'swapping over'. Such is the use of devils etc and there is no evidence that such talk of good and evil were ever used in the book of Q (source book of the christian gospels). In fact there are strong relationships between buddhist thought and early christianity (as there was between buddhist thought and Stoic roman philsophers e.g. Marcus Aurelius). Anyone that takes a religious view without question, testing or deep realisation is just asking for trouble.

Chi does have many definitions. We are born with it so it cannot be 'bad'. However you must be careful with chi exercises - try to find someone with some experience of chi exercises (I know someone who got kidney pain from chi exercises and no western doctor could spot anything wrong but he ended up going to a traditional chinese medicine doctor who diagnosed the problem immediately).

Therefore, do chi exercises, but do them properly (and get over your indoctrination, which may be the real cause of the nightmares!)

Ian

Pretoriano
09-27-2003, 06:49 PM
Quote.-"In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares..."

Too much brain oxigenation maybe?

Every people haved nightmares several times on live: from bad meal, stress, bad day to psychic attacks.

They should be not recurrent, and they should bother you just few minutes and no more, even if you can bring to present some of that images they can't harm you not during the dream, not after.

Mother nature wisely takes charge on Abuse-Overtrainning to natural prevent serious prejudices to your health: exhaustion, dismays, injuries likely warnings about energy and vitality.

Ive never heared about nightmares in Aikido Not uncommon people that have overworked and probably have suffered from insomnia for a while.

Movies are just for fun and relax, dont get too impressed, you should role play Lee that would assure better dreams:)

Pretoriano

Kensho Furuya
09-28-2003, 01:07 PM
In the very traditional definition of "ki" (or "chi" in Chinese), Ki always moves towards "goodness," or contains "the essence of goodness." In the West, we have God and a moral consciousness of good and evil and see Nature and the "laws of nature" or "natural order" as something impersonal or devoid of consciousness. Some scientist declare that nature is "random" and "directionless." In Eastern thought, the idea is slightly different. When, in the East, we speak of Nature or laws of Nature, we are also speaking of a "moral force" or "moral consciousness." This is the original meaning of "Do," or the "Path" as in Aikido. This natural law is also referred to as "toku" ("virtue" or "te" in Chinese). "Do" contains the essence of "Ri" or "kotowari," the law of Nature and this action or interaction is the manifestation of "ki." In Neo-Confucianist thought which had a tremendous influence on Japanese thinking and the samurai ideology in later generations, state that, "ki" is "ri" (Nature) as stated by Chi Hsi. Another later philosopher, Wang Yang Ming (Oyomei-gaku, or the Oyomei School) who influences Samurai thought tremendously, refined this to "ki" is "shin" or "mind "("ki soku shin")."

Today, we tend to give "ki" our own interpretation and speak of it from our own world, experiences and modern point of view. In the original or ancient usage of "ki," it has always contained the essence or idea of goodness.

When this flow or movement (ri) of ki is stopped or blocked or distorted, then everything, - natural order, also becomes distorted or removed from the "do" or Path. This is "not" good.

Even in modern Japanese, the term, "byoki" or "stopped or plugged up ki" means "disease" or "sickness." This is when the ki in the body is not functioning or flowing properly. In traditional terms, health means that the ki is always flowing properly and strongly.

If we try to hard or use excessive force or strain at something, we say, "muri" or "no 'ri'" meaning going against the laws of nature. "Muri" also infers moving away from "do" or not using our "ki." If we "give ki to it" (ki wo tsukeru) we are mentally aware or alert. If we give it "an abundance of ki" (ki wo komeru) then we are giving our loving care or compassion to it.

If our "ki" seems bad, it only means, in traditional terms, that our "ki" is distorted or plugged up. Ki should always be flowing and moving and it always moves towards goodness.

"Man's nature is always inclined towards goodness, just alway water always seeks the lower level."

This is just a very brief and superficial summary. Many thanks.

Pretoriano
09-30-2003, 11:12 PM
First of all I wish to give my deepest apretiation for your experienced comments here and in other treads and for to show tales from the True spirit of martial arts as well.

Question: How one knows how long is for to work Chi in terms of mind, emotional and body (development, control, balance, all oneself practical)

And when is time to take this knowledge a little far and start concerning and dealing (practically) about the Chi that links Everything that exist? I mean the energies that links the mind, the hearts, the happens in the human kind?

Im not sure my way of writing is enough clear for to be properly understood, I beg for your comprehension.

Muchas gracias,

Praetoriano

Caracas, Venezuela

"It's not only the most difficult thing to know one's self, but the most inconvenient."

Josh Billings

Kensho Furuya
10-01-2003, 02:55 AM
Thank you very much. I think you are directing this question to me and it is a question I deal with a lot in my dojo with my students and in my writings but it is also a very difficult question to answer and I am not sure I can do a good job here in just a few words. I hope that you will not misunderstand or misinterpret my words here.

Briefly, and in my own humble opinion, I think that it is a matter of perception more than a definition of ki. In a traditional interpretation, ki is inherent within the individual and not apart from him. This is why, in the East, we speak of ways of centering or concentrating or moving this energy throughout our body. Ki is also the "stuff" that not only ourselves but all things in Nature are made of. In the East, the idea is to allow ki to move freely through our bodies. We do this, not by conscious or deliberate control, but by bringing a so-called "harmony" to the bodies in which it is allowed to flow freely. In Aikido, we do this by a balanced, circular and free flowing movement. On the contrary, we understand that if we are too tight or hard or inflexible, the ki does not flow well at all.

I am trying to understand your question but I think you may believe, like many, that it is something attainable or, if I do this, and this, and this, such as train or study or contemplate ki, then I will have it. In a more traditional view, it is not something attained or grasped, but something which is "realized" internally. I hope I am not splitting hairs here or being too confusing for you.

This is why in the East, there is a common attitude of "non-doing" and everything gets done. This sounds very Taoist or Zen-like to us. The idea here is that ki is allowed to flow naturally by itself if we leave it alone or "let Nature takes it own course - we try to attain this state in our Aikido technique. How we reach this stage of realization of this energy and this flow is a matter of "transformation" or refinement of ourselves. This is the meaning of "practice."

In very ancient times, ki was interpreted to have "substance" - meaning to the ancients that it was not material but it was not im-material as well. The character for ki is written with the radical for "gas" over the radical for "rice" or, in other words, ki resembles the "steam" rising over cooking rice - something which seems to have substance and seems not to have substance at the same time. It is only much later in the evolution of the idea of ki, as I spoke of before, did ki become more of an abstract energy or principle (ri). The reason why I mention this is because we often interpret ki today as something which is very "mental" or "psychic" and this is not quite right, ki still has not only a connection within ourselves but with all of Nature as well. . . . .it is not a totally, human, "mental" thing, exclusively belonging only to us human beings.

Another complex aspect of this question is where the refinement of O'Sensei's genius has brought us Aikido's own unique idea of ki energy. The idea of ki projecting through the hands outside of one's body is not a part of the traditional or older definition of ki, this is something which is uniquely O'Sensei's idea. I hope I am not getting too long winded here.

Omoto Kyo is one of many "new religions" (shinko shukyo) to spring up around the turn of the century. These are called "new" religions and are very eclectic embodying aspects of many religions, not only Shinto, but Buddhism, Christianity, mysticism from the West and Europe which was very popular at this time. In one of the primal sources of Omoto Kyo, there is the strong influence of the Christian idea that man is a creation of God (from the Genesis, and "Omoto" is a reference to the Genesis in the Old Testament meaning 'Great Source.'") God wthin us (as his creation in this Japanese interpretation) can be projected outwards from the body to another (as God's Love.) In the early days, this idea took the form of healing practice. A characteristic of these new religions is this feature of "spiritual" healing. By the laying on of hands onto another, we can project God's Love, according to them. through the hands and heal another with this "energy.". This is how Japanese "new" religions understood this. God's Love in this case was called "hikari" or Light (as in God's Light) which gave rise to other new religions as Mahikari (Great Light) and Johrei (Purifying Light) etc. I think the refinement in O'Sensei's teaching was to take this concept of "hikari" which is projected from the hands and adapt it to his idea of ki in his Aikido. In the early days, O'Sensei sometimes referred to ki as "hikari" or light. This is part of the Omoto Kyo influence on Aikido. Whereas these religions used this concept for healing, O'Sensei adapted it into his Aikido in a martial way. Even in this, this light is something which flows freely from the body. It is not something that can be manipulated or controlled - what we do is to allow it to flow freely.

There is one more aspect I would also like to briefly touch on to help you with your understanding of this. In the traditional concept of ki, there is this idea of free flowing or Natural flowing as a part of the natural activity of ki. In Chinese, this was, as I mentioned before referred to as "non-doing" or "non-activity" ("wu-wei" in Chinese), I think in O'Sensei's Aikido we understand this as "purification" or misogi. In the Japanese idea, we come closer to Nature or achieve the "pure" state of Nature, as we, at the same time, achieve the free flowing state of ki - as we "purify" ourselves in our training or in the execution of Aikido techniques. In other words, "Aikido is misogi-waza." as we understood O'Sensei to say.

It is much better to understand all of this in your training on the mats. I indulged my own bad habit of yakking too much here. I hope I haven't confused you too much. Many thanks for your patience.

Paula Lydon
10-01-2003, 11:01 PM
~~Hello Unknow Person! In my view and experience ki is one of the many names for life energy (call it God if you wish) and as such is neutral in and of itself. You can cultivate yourself to tap into or allow more to move through you and what you freely choose to do at that point is up to you. You are already full of and channeling ki or chi or prana, etc, or you wouldn't exist in any form.

~~As for the dreams--again, 'bad' is only a term applied--I would say try to record them regularily and let them work whatever they came to work out or on for you. I've gone through boughts in my life of horrific dreams, and in the end it always turned out to be something I needed to confront and process through. So in that light, maybe they're actuall 'good' dreams as they are appearing for some reason at this time to help you grow. We push our bodies to sweat and pant and ache, most uncomfortable, all of which works out toxins and builds overall health. Is this a bad thing?

~~I would say, if you're enjoying you training, just try to relax, breath through the unfamiliar or uncomfortable and let things arise and pass as they naturally will. If that is not possible at this time for you, then stop training. You were drawn to it once, it will probably come around again when you're more ready.

~~Take care

Ghost Fox
10-02-2003, 07:31 AM
Whenever you truly train in a spiritual discipline you start contacting those aspects from the darker side of your subconscious, namely the Shadow. All the repressed and denied memories, impulses, and emotional traumas that we don’t want to acknowledge come floating to the service like a rotting corpse filled with gases. Sometimes these darker aspects manifest themselves as nightmares. You have to analyze/meditate on them to understand what your spirit is trying to tell you.

Most people who meditate, practice Aikido or any other Do tend to use it as an escape from life or to try to feel better about themselves. I’m not saying this is bad, but there is a deeper level that only comes about though embracing our Shadow and integrating it into our larger consciousness. Shin Shin Toitsu talks about Mind, Body, and Spirit united. If you deny an aspect of yourself, whether it be a negative conditioning or a physical limitation due to an injury your Aikido will reflect that. Aikido is a mirror of ones spiritual development.

JMHO

:triangle: :circle: :square:

Ghost Fox
10-02-2003, 07:48 AM
People talk about Ki development, as it is the final step of the process. The accumulation of Ki into the body and getting it to flow properly is only the first stage. Ki is just raw energy, without direction and purpose the Ki will be channeled haphazardly into reinforcing negative conditioning or spent fruitlessly.

In Aikido by focusing on the aspects of harmony, peace, and compassion we seek to channel this new energy into developing new patterns of interacting with those around us. You have to be mindful of what you give energy to in life. I think Aikido makes us aware of what we choose to give life to.

JMHO

:triangle: :circle: :square:

Kevin Leavitt
10-04-2003, 06:35 PM
Several people of already stated it above, and very well might I add.

KI is Energy. Energy can be neither positive or negative in nature it just is energy.

Energy can be directed in the wrong way (negatively).

For those that believe in the typcial christian concept of God and Christ, they can be KI as well. Because KI is all encompasing in the universe. everything is KI.

Some one above said that KI was a foriegn concept to the Christian Dogma. Not really, just explained in different ways.

As far as dreams go. Yes they probably are figuratively a result of KI. Remember KI is everything.

From a western standpoint you probably are feeling some sort of guilt or apprehension towards the changes you made in your life, possibly starting to study aikido??? It will probably take some time to reconcile your mind! Hang in there.

I think at somepoint in everyone's martial arts career when they move from simply practicing an external art to internalizing it, they experience a life shift that causes them a great deal of turmoil.

If you read some of Saotome Sensei's writings he expresses it.

Good luck and sweet dreams!

Steven Tame
10-07-2003, 04:08 AM
Ok I think I have figured out the reason for the bad dreams.... maybe

since I`m living in Japan now which I don`t usually it seems that everytime there is a small tremor/earthquake I get bad dreams of somekind.

Probably cos I`m not used to earthquakes at all and it sub-conciously scares me.

The other night I had a dream in which I was trying to do imimi nage but I couldn`t throw the person for some reason they seemed to have a force around them... then all of a sudden I was attacked by a wild animal of some kind... very odd but it was a bit scary at the time.

Kensho Furuya
10-18-2003, 06:43 PM
Offer an "O-Sonae" or an offering for flowers, or a couple of fruit or a small glass of sake to O'Sensei's picture, and all the bad dreams will go away. . . . . it always works!

Chuck.Gordon
10-20-2003, 02:50 PM
In my experience after I started training in Aikido "ki" exercises I started having very bad demonic nightmares... much like in Bruce lee's Dragon... Now is this a coinsidence, dreams are strange things and maybe just the fact that I have seen Dragon and have also heard rumours/opinion that Bruce lee died an early death cos he couldn't control his "ki" power...
Dude. Get off the drugs. Now.

Or get into some serious analysis and therapy.

Geez. What the heck do you think you are studying? The answer to life, the universe and everything?

Wait, that's 42.

Seriously. Don't take this too seriously.

If you do, it can f**k with your head. Actually, you are th eonly one who can f**k with your head.

Just go train. Live, breathe, train, enjoy. Don't look too deep. Deep gets here soon enough. Especially if you really live ...

Chuck

Troy
05-11-2004, 09:09 PM
This is my first post on AikiWeb, and I think this is a good place for me to start.

Ki is the internal energy generated by your living essance. Some even believe it to be the energy from your Soul. One has the choice of either being a Good person or an Evil person. So, if you treat everyone with kindness, and do the right thing, and use your energy for Good, then the Ki is good. If you do the opposite, then the Ki is bad. Energy is Nutral untill we make it otherwise.

The dreams, you said you had them when you first started the Ki training. Sence you probably hadn't done any energy training/work before (at leaste i am assuming) your mind might have been over stimulated, even if you felt totally calm. It happens to me all of the time, and I have funky dreams because of it as well.

Your friend, on the other hand, saying that Energy is evil? Ask them what their soul is made from... I bet they will say something like, energy, or energy from God, or something like that. I've had an argument like that before. And I am a Christian.

Orihime
05-12-2004, 04:12 AM
I don't know, but as for me I don't see any evident link between Ki and religion.

Pauly
05-12-2004, 07:06 AM
It might help if everyone had the same definition of Ki. I think that people's individual experience of it is so subjective that it can't really be called bad or even good.

Is your experience of Ki been entriely by yourself? With one other person? At a seminar with 50 other people? On the street? What and where?

Also I agree with Chuck Gordon about not taking it too seriously.

Terencentanio
05-12-2004, 03:21 PM
Hey all :) This post got my attention so I'm gonna voice myself.

Ok, starting with religion. I see religion as a story made up by someone to explain the unprovable... in a way that won't be questioned. This is only my opinion (no, I'm not a believer in "the one all powerful being known as God)

I am a firm believer in Ki, yet I have had no experience with it.. although once I thought I did but I couldn't be sure...

About your bad dreams:-

(1) Bad dreams such as yours occur when you feel you've done something that you shouldn't have or you have played where you're not welcome to. Say, manipulating Ki and finally getting a sense of it may scare you into thinking you've done something wrong and it's or something is angry..

(2) Something you did recently may of provoked deapened thought... something linked to your past and your dreams.

(3) You could be eating cheese before you go to bed)

I have always had bad dreams.. mostly around the time I started testing psycic powers and was scared by the results. I won't go into detail as you'll only laugh.

I advise you perhaps sleep with your head on 2-3 pillows (although over 1 is unhealthy) ... but this should stop your bad dreams if it's pysical. Otherwise, read something funny or light before you go to bed.. this should relax you (don't watch TV as this will cause sleep problems and make your mind over active)

Also try other methods found above,

Hope this helps somehow :)

whitelion
07-12-2004, 09:05 AM
Please do not consider this offensive in anyway, but in your post about the experiences about Dragons, Bruce Lee, Ki and nightmares could be 1) joke 2) normal "visions" that your brains have created since you have been under influence of Klegends and possible some films about Bruce Lee & mysticsm etc.
3) OR these phenomenons and your feelings are really result of supernatural, or should I say un-natural spirit force.

please, forgive my "broken english", it is not my first language.

As cristian nowdays, I have quit training aikido ( and Ki-training ), because of its spiritual, non-christian nature.
From that point of view, It is not strange that you possibly have had strange feelings, that YOU have analyzed somehow
frightening or strange.

If someone is analyzing aikido or any form of ki-training, sports, spiritualism, religion with cristian background or just comparing the two
different ideology, he/she must ( at least I would suggest ) follow these principles:

First, all ideologys can NOT be true. Either something is true, or it is not.
Secondly, do not be frighten about being wrong. With proper knowledge you can change you view. Millions of people have been led to believe false gods, spirits, politics thousands of years. Different beliefs, like believing that "ki is good/bad/natural/ power that anyone
can learn to use" is not true, even some phenomenons might support this.

Third, IF you believe that Bible IS the true word of God, everything in it must be then true and every doctrine or belief that is
not TOTALLY symmetrical with Bible, * MUST HAVE DIFFERENT ORIGIN THAN BIBLE ! *. I think this is very simple logics.

Before we can analyse Ki or other form of power, like "holy spirit of God", ask from your self, what is life ? Or what powers does it require to stay alive ?

So, if anyone says to you, like "Ki is same as your life force that exists in your souls", please ask this person to prove that it is so. No-one has been able to do this.

- the physiological/chemical reactions makes you as "living soul",
your life is based on complicate chemical/physical reactions, that are depended of certain physical elements ( liquid water, temperature, air pressure etc.and suitabe enironment.

Bible is TOTALLY in harmony with this: Adam was CREATED from earth, and God stared his life ( the reactions that you have also ) and ADAM BECAME LIVING SOUL. God
did NOT put any spiritbody or immortal soul inside Adam. Please, read the creation of man from your own Bible.

Could this phenomenon create "power of Ki ?". Lets see what the history of Ki/Chi/Zi - or history of Ai-ki-do says. As I was told,
aikido means "the way of harmony", so the FALSE logics says that:

- Since "ai" is harmony, and aiki is "power of harmony/universe/life etc." everything in aikido is "harmonical and good". I know someone could say I am
offensive, but I would like that ANYONE ask from themself, what they thought when they heard these kind of "proven thruths" from their sensei.?
How was it proven ? With several Ki-training techniques ( stiff hand, body mass extending...) or stories ( true or legends.) that were about the masters, like O-sensei.

Do I make myself clear ? Didn´t we WANT to believe that this is the case ? Didn´t we want to believe that these ki-training techniques would eventually lead us to same "masterity" than the real masters ? Ofcource we did. So, if we start asking questions like,
"what is the source of this ki-power?" you normally get two explanations: 1) ki is your lifeforce OR/AND 2) Ki is universal non-personal force that can be "channeled" into and out from you body with different methods.

What are the methods to gain KI ? Please study carefully the history of Aikido and see/read YOURSELF what O-sensei did. He was Shinto-practicer, I have understood that he had very deep RELIGIOUS conviction. I have PERSONALLY met sensei´s that have trained with O-sensei, and
they authenticated that believing to "Kami", SPIRITS ( they even have names ! ) was essential at his training and - teaching.
His trainings started with rituals, that are clearly religious and spiritual. Do not believe, if someone trys to say something
else, he/she is then:
1) totally ignorant about true aikido
2) trying to lie to you ( even he/she does know the origin of KI )
3) trying to lie to him/herself, since the TRUTH would collapse his/her view of life.

Consider this with respect: If the founder of aikido said SEVERAL times that the power of AIKI "is not from us, it is from universe..."
we have to believe that there have been at least one person who has been honest. Please, study more, and you will see
that "Kami" , the spirits, their influence at his and his closest followers aikido has been important.

One of the great misconseptions is actually the term "the way of harmony". It is NOT true translation. Actually the phrase means
that "way to harmonize/connect yourself with aiki". So the ULTIMATE goal of aikido is to CONNECT yourself with this power !
And the method is to worship spirits that will eventually to help you to gain more and more Ki. And your problem in this is that the "alarm bell" was ringing. GOOD, very good.


So, either these statements are true or they are false. Now you must study the history of Ki and aikido, so that you will see am I liar or not.

The most important question: What does Bible or history say about this? Similar practice of ki was known at Babylon, thousands years ago. It was called
"Zi", and the PRIESTS of Babylonian gods were able to use or control this. Does this sound familiar ? Zi -> Chi -> Ki and the priest ?
It does. The methods have been translated to different cultures, but the principle is same: Gods/spirits -> give power to priest -> priests will
teach this further and so on. Like babylonian priest and WW-second time Japan Shintoism, the state-religion was accepting war. Nothing new under the sun, I would say. As you read more bible, you will see clearly that
the Satan was using Babylonian religion to spread the "spiritual religion" all over the world. Historians prove this also.
So, from the point of the Bible, the God of Israel ( Jehovah ) was against ALL form of their religions.

One of the misconseptions among the "christian" budo-trainers seems to be that they have connected the "ki-power" to God´s Holy Spirit.
This is really dangerous, and can eventually lead to blasphemy. Ask from yourself, how could some "Kami-worshipper" demand/get power of God with methods that are based on false beliefs ? Such persons must be:
1) totally ignorant about the Bible, its meaning and christianity generally.
2) they believe that all form of religion is good. See again 1)
3) they have gain some personal benefit from ki-training, and do not care anymore is it Satan or God.
4) they want deliberately lead spiritually/religious minds towards the spirit world and Satan/Demons.

Again, we can find answer from the Bible. Do not believe my words no more than the words of ki-teachers.
In the book of "Works of Apostoles" have SEVERAL occasiations, where the power of God = the Holy Spirit and the spirit forces of Satan
were against each others. Read the chapter 13 forexample. Well, generally read and study the whole Bible :-)
Every person who made something "strange"- or lets use the term "supernatural" - got the power from spirits. Jeesus Christ said several times that all of his works were done with power from God, NOT with his own force. Christ also pointed out that some Israelians were using demonic powers, and spirits ( the kami again ! ) were able to enter humans and these persons had supernatural experiences - and forces.
Maybe you remember that normal humans were unable to control their power, but when Jesus helped, the spirits left, and the became normal.

I have tried to be as thruthfull as I can. I am expecting very hard critisism towards this reply. Actually, I am looking forward to it.
But as my last quote, I would challenge anyone to examine more history of Aikido and ofcource history of Religion and carefully study the Bible.

If you are true "truth seeker", nothing can not hide the real source of Ki from you, even the wolf comes in sheeps clothes.
"THe Satan himself disguises himself as the angel of light"... ( Galatians, in the Bible that is.) I am sure that God will show
to you "the way" how to harmonize yourself with true God Jehovah. The Way is told in the Bible through Jesus Christ.

- Richard -

happysod
07-12-2004, 09:22 AM
As cristian nowdays, I have quit training aikido ( and Ki-training ), because of its spiritual, non-Christian nature With all due respect, please sod off and die you objectionable little troll.

Your meandering post just reeks of smug self-satisfaction, right down to the "I expect to be picked on for this". What is objectionable isn't so much your belief on what ki/aikido is in relation to your religion, but the sheer bravado you show in that it is obvious that you have already made up your mind and would not actually be open to any sort of discussion, only more insipid reiterations of your own personal viewpoint.

As such, your only contribution can ever be "don't do this as you will be damned in the afterlife you godless pagans" I'd appreciate your silence. There are many posters on this board who hold strong religious values (not just Christian) while being able to practice aikido in all its manifestations. I find your puerile dismissal of their religious views an affront to common courtesy and your general demeanor an affront to intelligence in any form.

Beholder
07-12-2004, 12:13 PM
With all due respect, please sod off and die you objectionable little troll.


No, no, Ian I think you read the post wrong. If people with thought processes as astounding as that quit aikido, that's a good thing surely?

Looks like I'll be training with all my aikido friends when I get to hell then. Ah well... at least the mats won't be cold.

Greg Jennings
07-12-2004, 02:12 PM
My dojo is in a apostolic protestant church. I'm practicing Catholic, the senior student is a serious protestant church-goer of some ilk, another student is a serious Baptist, I have an Anglican priest training with me, one fellow, if you ask him (he doesn't volunteer it), says he's an atheist. I have the adjunct priest from my parish attending class tonight and a friend of his "from the office".

Ya know, I feel pretty good about what we're doing.

FWIW,

kironin
07-12-2004, 02:35 PM
I have tried to be as thruthfull as I can. I am expecting very hard critisism towards this reply. Actually, I am looking forward to it.
But as my last quote, I would challenge anyone to examine more history of Aikido and ofcource history of Religion and carefully study the Bible.
- Richard -


if you are expecting and looking forward to very hard criticism,
then I really strongly suggest that you go and post this sort of stuff
here:
http://www.atheistnetwork.com/

They are much more likely to respond in a lively way to your thoughts on the history of religion and the Christian Bible.


otherwise,
have a nice day,
plus ki,

:ki:

Craig

gilsinnj
07-13-2004, 03:30 PM
In general, all religions that are open to real spiritual growth and understanding have discovered some form of what we as Aikidoka call "Ki". Whether they call it the "power of God" or "Ki", the energy is the same. Many things are taught and studied as dogma with little understanding as to the real meaning.

I grew up Catholic and converted to Islam a few years ago. In my study of Catholocism, Islam, and Aikido, I found that there are many different levels of spiritual learning in each. If you simply want to do the minimum, you can learn the the words you are supposed to say at mass and take everything that is said to you at face value. This would be the same as only learning the physical techniques in Aikido. Some religions or sects of some religions encourage their members to stop there and not to persue further knowledge. (I'm sorry if that statement offends some people, but it seems to be true in my experience.)

Other religions or sects of other religions encourage their members to study and persue knowledge that delves deeper. Both the church I grew up in and the islamic center I worship at now encourage these studies, as well as the Aikido dojo I practice at. I've noticed a lot of similarities between Aikido and Islam, especially when it comes to the spiritual study of both and the concept of what Aikidoka call Ki.

In Aikido, we study Ki breathing and the use of Ki in our techniques. This is very similar to meditation and the power of God in Islam. While Aikido teaches "mind, no mind", trying to empty ones mind but yet become aware of everything, Islam teaches one to focus on God and only God. The physical practice of each is very similar, and the sensations felt during the practice of each is very similar. After introducing the concepts to both my Aikido instructor and my Imam (Islamic scholar), I learned that both also have the concept of being able to feel/see others energy, and tapping into Ki energy or the power of God.

Most Aikidoka have heard the amazing stories of what O'Sensei was able to accomplish by using Ki power. Things like the touchless throw, moving large boulders in his old age, holding off multiple attackers with one finger, etc. These stories aren't much different than the ones from the Torah, Bible, or Qur'an that describe amazing feets by the prophets. Stories like David and Goliath, Noah parting the Red Sea, and countless battles where a few devout followers were able to overcome overwhealming odds to be victorious. While there are many who question the validity of all these stories, I believe that the Ki that O'Sensei tapped into is the same power of God that the prophets tapped into. They were all able to use that energy to do seemingly amazing things.

The differences occur when we as human beings try to describe that energy. Since none of us fully understands the concept of this energy to begin with, none of us can fully understand how it relates to the world around us. Because of that, we try to box it in and explain it in terms that we CAN understand. The people in ancient Arabia had only the power of God to explain these events. The people around O'Sensei only had their spiritual teachings to describe the events they saw. (I think I've heard that O'Sensei himself never used the word Ki to describe what was going on, but don't quote me on that.) Because of this, its hard for many people to understand the relationships between the different terms and understand that they probably describe the same thing.

Sorry if I rambled on there. I've been thinking about these types of things for a while. I've seen many similarities between religion and Aikido ever since I started discovering some of the more spiritual concepts in each.

-- Jim

Charles Hill
07-13-2004, 09:59 PM
Jim,

It`s great that you have found connections between your two practices. In myself, however, I found that I occasionally let preconceived notions cloud what I find. I read an interesting interview with the guy on whom they based the character in the movie Jurassic Park. He is considered the top guy in the field of dinosaurs. When the interviewer asked him how he was able to make so many advances in the field, the scientist replied that he goes out into the field without any specific thoughts as to what he is looking for, he`s not looking for something, he is just looking. Other scientists, he said, start with any idea and then go out to look for proof. That is why they miss so much.

I think comparisons are important and help us to understand things. However, I`ve realized that it is possible for them to trip us up as much as help us.

As for Richard`s post, not to stir up trouble or anything (ok, to stir up trouble :), when I visited Omoto Kyo a number of years ago, I asked about learning Onisaburo Deguchi`s Chinkon Kishin which the founder practiced. I was told that they no longer teach it because they were having trouble with people becoming possesed by evil spirits throught the practice and jumping off buildings and such.


Charles Hill

xuzen
07-13-2004, 11:25 PM
Dear anonymous,

Ki and chi litterally translate as breath in chinese and japanese language. tell me, which part of the word breath sounds evil to you? About you having n'mare, I guess it could just be a coincidence or maybe you went to sleep with a full stomach.

Boon

Kyri Honigh
07-14-2004, 12:50 AM
Hahaha omg lolz. Some people hahaha...don't understand why they are so chained to a certain doctrine. Don't have the ability to think and sort things out for yourself?Mr Nevalainen, how can you be so sure about it all? I am a catholic myself, but I am sure of one thing. The bible is a book written by humans and not by God. There's a very big possibility that things happened slightly (lol) different than said in The Book. But what you wanna believe is up to you, just don't try to force your faith and ideology on others. Good luck to you crusader!


P.s People with attitudes like you TOTALLY piss me off...thinking they all know about what's going on.. You think you are save now right, cause you believe ( I believe in God too). But you're forgetting about something. Should you not respect the beliefs of others? I don't know what the truth is, but I am willing to accept it if it's revealed to me, whether I am dead or alive. But HOW will you cope with it, if it's any bit different from your rigid view?

Kyri Honigh
07-14-2004, 12:53 AM
sorry if there are any typos or whatever, hehehe got all fired up there.

whitelion
07-15-2004, 07:00 AM
Charles Hill[/QUOTE]


As for Richard`s post, not to stir up trouble or anything (ok, to stir up trouble :), when I visited Omoto Kyo a number of years ago, I asked about learning Onisaburo Deguchi`s Chinkon Kishin which the founder practiced. I was told that they no longer teach it because they were having trouble with people becoming possesed by evil spirits throught the practice and jumping off buildings and such.


Charles Hill[/QUOTE]

Thank you for very interesting reply. First - even for me - It was almost too difficult believe what you had told about Omoto Kyo. ( which has had influence of Aikidos spiritual side.)
Luckilly, there is interesting article at:
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/osensei/bio/mori2.html

So, anyone who is interested to read, whatkind of persons defined the modern aikido´s spiritual lines, should see that my poin of view (what I tried to explain ) that believing "spirit world" and practising "spiritual" things, really exists. It is up to you, do you want to examine more what we can know about "spirit world". I can recommend the Bible as good source to these things. This is also my answer to some critisism that has came. Thank you for your comments.

Aikido and christian trainers

I am really sorry if my explanation about Ki and christianity has uppsetted someone. I must point that I was not raised as christian no more than average western citicen is about to have, but not given any "liberal" education that "all religions are good". Different religions or "systems of belive" is proof that people are not satisfied with their religions/beliefs. Thats why I was interested about aikido: I had just resigned from Luterian Church due its connection with false teachings about Bible and Christ, its connection to support wars etc. I think anyone can understand history of "Christianity" ( Catholic mostly ) as blood-thirsty and hypocrite, by the standards of Christ. So, if anyone has been on crusade, It has been catholics, not persons who believe like me. If someone is not accepting my point of view, I do not underestimate or start using provocative sentences. If someone sees some logical flaw in my text, please comment and also try to prove that I am wrong. It is always good to know that.

Famous Indian, Gandhi, has said during his times in England: " I learnt to love Christ, but to hate priests.".Maybe he knew what he was talking as beeing slavered by "christians". So, in that sense, anyone saying "I believe in God too" has really no value as proof that someone´s way of live is really close to any God. Does believing in God effect to president of US ? If some priest practices aikido, what does it mean ?
Can he explain why Bible says "not to bow any idols or any picture.." if he is willing to do so ? Could it be so simple that such person is neglecting the "rules" ( at least it is common believe that christian priest should accept the Bible as word of God.) which he is expected to follow.?


Ichimura-sensei and his problem with aikido

My experiences with budo started at age of 10 with judo, and by that I had my first experience about aikido, when our instructor ( at kids judo) demonstrated us "aikido".He was working for Japan embassy at Finland as "chaufferin" or something like that. Some years later, at the age of 17 I started training aikido, when one student of Toshikazu Ichimura started to teach us. ( Ichimura was in charge of aikido at Finland and Sveden at 70/80 ). I get to know Ichimura also, by the years he was still here. He was really warm-hearted teacher, really good and respectful sensei. At that time he had 6th dan, ( please see: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia.php?entryID=282 ) As I studied more aikido, and some other martial arts ( jujutsu was good for physics ) and I also meditated to gain level of "un-knowing" so to clear my mind and also to be more open to new things. Something was still bothering: since I knew about western occultism and its clear anti-christ attitude, I was aware that not all "spiritual" things comes from good source. Ki can be used even with assasins, so have I read from books that deal some "not-so-peaceful" martial-arts. I believe that anyone who has read some issues of BlackBelt can see that ki-training is common among persons, who have very little any idea of "spiritual progression" other than in military/martial sense. To me, it is obvious that Ki does not come form God of Love. If Ki is some unknown, but natural force, like electricity two hundreds years ago, why God had said to avoid occutism ? Because all it practicers must be connected to something that they can not control. Your statement about Omoto Kyo is good example. You can not control something that is too powerful for common humans, It will be that they will control you.
To my surprise, sensei Ichimura started to study christianity - and he became one ! I do not know which "sect", but it is not so important than his will to follow his consciences and sincere attitude. So, actually Ichimura started to explain that christianity and aikido has indeed similar view: peace among the humans, and non-violence attitude towards conflicts, however he pointed that he can not practise anymore rituals that has shinto background. Several years before, he had conflict with his close student, Rainer Varis, who left aikido and formed Ki-aikido training here at Finland. Ichimura was against this "fast way" to Ki-powers. I think he had enough experience to jude that.
I was amazed, when he announced that he will stop teaching and practising aikido. I had same problem: how to justify practising aikido, and same time to be in harmony with Christ.? Solution was: they can not be united, since following the Christ should be enough. He was right. I do not have any merit in aikido, but please believe his. ( You may confirm his reason to withdraw from some long-time finnish senseis, if you know any.)
After Ichimura left, some turmoul was going through aikido in Finland. Some other senseis took care of business here. Soon I discovered, that there was no point to continue in Aikido, without wholly accepting its "power source". Some finnish trainers visited at Michio Hikitsuchi dojo, and things they saw there confessed me about Ki-powers relation with worshipping the spirits. If you know someone who had change to visit his dojo, he/she can tell a lot more than I can. Not all dojos follow this traditional, Usehiba-style. But generally, if someone does not follow Ueshibas instructions, how he could progress in aikido ? It was under their supervision that I got my first "heavy body" experience at one training camp for short time. Since then I got interested more about this side of training. Finally, after some strange events what happened to me and to my girfriend who started have more strange visions when he was training aikido, I realized that it was time to move on and concentrate totally to Christ. As you may read from Bible, christians do not need any idols of Gods, nor altars of sacrifice, or any priesthood. It is really "The Way" like it was said in Bible.

I could write hundreds of pages about this issue, but I would be useless. I do not want to "crusade" against anyone, specially if he/she has very little experience about martial arts or "supernatural" phenomenons. Life generally is different than what we have taught. All I wanted to point out that people should not make decisions with weak reasons. And - like I was reminded - always be ready to change you view if you are wrong. But please do not say that Christ/God/Bible is in harmony with Aikido/ki or anything else, if you do not know these ideolgies enough to say so. Maybe someone remembers person called "Saul" who later came known as Paul. He was confirmed that Christ was wrong prophet ( because he believed in God without proper understanding.) but later accepted Christ wholly.
So, I am not worried about negative comments, maybe your time is coming. :-)

-Richard -

happysod
07-15-2004, 07:38 AM
All I wanted to point out that people should not make decisions with weak reasons. And - like I was reminded - always be ready to change you view if you are wrong. But please do not say that Christ/God/Bible is in harmony with Aikido/ki or anything else Dad, dad, I've found a baby fundamentalist, can I keep him eh, eh?

Just remember folks - using the above "logic" - God is NOT your friend as he's not in harmony with anything else

justMe
07-15-2004, 08:12 AM
******************************************************************************** ************************************
Re: Aikido and being Christian

This is a most interesting thread. After I read all the entries I was quite pleased to note that there are many who seem who share my personal point of view: Aikido is what you make it! So is ki! Our intent, interpretation, use and experience of a thing define its quality of goodness or badness. For example there are those who feel handguns are bad and should be banned. Others believe (myself included) that guns are inanimate objects incapable of any such anthropomorphic qualities. In my view, it is the intent of the bearer that is either good or bad.

Just so, if one wishes to bring religion based spirituality to their Aikido practice, then Aikido will be a spiritual thing to them. So will ki. Others who do not assign a secular element to Aikido or ki will practice in religious neutrality. We all choose our path. We personally assign value and meaning as is congruous to our own perspectives on living, which includes our faith selections (and yes, not choosing is a choice).

However, I did strongly disagree with those who stated that meditation and emptying the mind could allow something evil to enter. My opinion? Impossible! First off I need to say that I do not anthropomorphize deities, evil, goodness etc. Evil is not some sort of mystical sneak-thief awaiting for the owner of the house to leave before robbing it. It is a personal quality that, like honesty, goodness or morality, must be intentionally developed within ones self. That being the case, I offer the following analogy. If you empty a glass of its water, the glass still remains. If you attempt to fill the glass with vapor, the glass will not hold it because it is the wrong type of substance for that container. In the same manner, evil can not take over a good person. They are simply the wrong kind of containers!

Also, this idea of ki being from the devil is actually anti-Christian. Consider: all things come from God. Even Lucifer, according to doctrine, was created by God. So Lucifer is unable to create anything new and must content himself with warping that which already exists, hence his reputation as the Father of Lies and The Great Deceiver. This turns the ki conundrum into the handgun example I gave earlier. The practitioner of ki development will decide for him or her self via intent, interpretation, use and experience, just what exactly the nature of ki is for themselves.
******************************************************************************** ************************************


I posted the above as a reply to a different thread. It seems to me that it is relevant here as well so I am repeating myself. I am also adding the following observations:

Dreams tend to serve as pressure valves that release both conscious and subconscious tensions that remain unresolved when we go to sleep. For example, I was for years engaged in aggressive and violent work. Often I came home so weary that I would go straight to bed. In these instances I was more likely to have violent dreams than those times when I would come home and have a few hours to unwind.

Sometimes as we search for meaning we erringly assign weighty significance to ordinary things. I am reminded of a scene from “Apollo 13” where an astronaut’s wife laments “Of course it had to be 13” alluding to unlucky superstitious connotations regarding that number. Her husband simply points out, regarding the number 13, “It follows 12.”

In my humble opinion, we, all of us, myself included, tend to take ourselves too seriously. Just like Don Quixote, we engage what we perceive as savage dragons to defend our “territory,” be that physical possessions, emotional states, or religious/philosophical perspectives. To outside observers, our savage dragons are simply windmills.

Chuck.Gordon
07-15-2004, 02:32 PM
Actually, aikido and christianity are quite incompatible. You should go do christian kurotty.

Sigh.

Look, you want to reconcile your faith with your budo, fine. Just do it in private and wash your hands afterward.

If you want to do BUDO (no really, BUDO, you know, a Japanese system of martial endeavor?) then you'd better be prepared to accept the fact that your chosen art will have roots in and connection to the spiritual aspects of Japanese belief systems.

That don't mean you have to ACCEPT those belief systems, but that you have to be open to and accept the influence they had upon your chosen art.

In the case of aikido, the art was built upon a foundation of Daito Ryu Jujutsu and Omoto Kyo.

If that bothers you, go do something else.

No, really.

The core philosophies of aikido are inextricably entwined with esoteric Shinto and Omoto Kyo religion.

Can you do aikido and realize that and still hold to your own accepted faith system?

Well, yeah. IF your faith is strong.

If not, then you have a problem that no amount of apologia or rationalization will deconflict.

If you want to do budo, do budo. If you want to praise god, go to church.

But, then, YMMV, of course.

Chuck

kironin
07-15-2004, 05:20 PM
All I wanted to point out that people should not make decisions with weak reasons.


Great! got the point. Your sensei had a conversion experience that really twisted your melon. Always diificult to reconcile things after someone you are following makes an abrubt change. No more need to be said.

You just need to recognize that others who strongly disagree with your beliefs/viewpoint may have just as strong if not stronger reasons for doing so.

I am not holding my breathe.

Yours in Ki :ki:

p00kiethebear
07-15-2004, 08:19 PM
No one said you had to believe in ki. Maybe in your mind, there is no universal energy? There is perhaps only the coordination of your mind, muscles and nervous system which the chinese and japanese call "ki" energy. Ki is whatever you want it to be. If you believe it to be a making of the devil then don't practice it or believe in it, practice the techniques without thinking about it.
If i remember correctly, Christian scientists believe extremely strongly in that we are all made in god's own image. And therefor have the power of god within us all. Could their faith healing miracles be the power of ki? Or just coincidence? Is there anyone out there who can give me a better description of the christian scientists? This goes on mostly what i've heard from my mothers practices.

Peter Seth
07-16-2004, 07:14 AM
A general note about KI.
Its like a loaded gun, totally unbiased just sitting there doing its 'thing', in total balance and harmony with itself and all around it. - Then along comes this person (idiot) and upsets the balance!!

malc anderson
07-17-2004, 04:10 AM
Hi ya Riki, some questions for you. If the Bible is the WORD of God, what was in the beginning? (In the beginning was the word and the word was God) Was it a huge Bible floating in a void? What language was it written in at that time?
Let go of your concepts of God and carry on worshiping if that’s what you want. As Jesus said,” It is the peace that passes all understanding”, so how can you understand it? Surely Jesus wasn’t lying? In a recent program on language the word translated as ‘wind’ in the bible can also be translated as ‘breath’ so when Jesus said that ‘the spirit is like the wind no one knows where it comes from and no one knows where it goes to’ change the word ‘wind’ for ‘breath’. So the Spirit is the breath, or Ki or Chi. Think about it you can play a guitar or hit someone over the head with it, does the guitar become evil?
I agree with what Boon Soh has written. Ki or Chi (Breath) is not only not good or bad, it is VITAL to your existence and with out it you can’t go to church, or read your bible or do anything. Let me finish by saying that I respect most of what the bible say’s but I also respect most religions and their written texts to. How can the words in ‘The Way of Peace’ be devilish? malc

silverlion
08-02-2004, 11:24 AM
Hello everyone,

silverlion
08-02-2004, 11:37 AM
Hey everyone,
I am just a beginner myself, however I believe "ki" is the universal energy that creates and destroys.
What we do with it as humans dictates if it is bad for us or not.
One will either create something beautiful or destroy something beautiful, however a balance must be kept.
The individual decides what part of the balance they wish to be.
It is like the common saying "guns dont kill people, people fill people."
Anyone else feel the same way?

Tim Clark
08-06-2004, 11:43 PM
What is ki? It is different things to different people, Shioda (in Total Aikido) defined it as when correct posture, timing etc all came together.I feel it (at this point in time) as energy, which is manifest as sound, heat, movement, etc. Posture and body position play a big part, because that is how that energy is directed and transferred. So ki can be seen in more natural terms.

Since energy is neither good or bad, its what the mind makes of it. I am Christian and I see nothing evil with ki.

Happy training

RichGar
09-25-2004, 06:51 PM
Very interesting theories on what Ki. Ki Qi, Chi, Energy are one and the same. There is only one energy in the universe. "Uni" means one and "verse" means song. Or better stated one source. As far as the "Word" in the beginning being true, it is. For you "Christians" the believe that the "written" Word is the only "valid" word of the creator didn't occur until 1526 when Martin Luther decided to call it so. Before that time it was the "Apostolic" or "spoken" word that existed from the time of the Master Jesus until Martin Luther thumped his finger on a bible and proclaimed "It's in the Book!"
Energy belongs to the world of duality and came after the "word" was spoken or "intended" by the One Mind, God. What we generate in our exercises and or our techniques when performing, is energy, Ki. The power of the technique expressed in spirit. What makes the expression of the technique by one who has trained diligently and has "connected' with the triune of mind, spirit and energy is flawless, smooth and effortless. O' sensei and Koichi Tohei's way of executing technique.

jester
09-27-2004, 09:39 AM
There's a lot of responses here, but I never saw a second post from the person who started the thread.

It almost reads as a joke post. I don't think he can be serious.

davidraybell
09-30-2004, 11:42 PM
I've heard several different ideas of what Ki is, from simple breath power to metaphysical cosmic goo that binds the universe with phenomenal cosmic powers, dark and beautiful...
Any how, we don't do much Ki at my dojo, however it all seemed to sound familiar and then I remembered where I've heard this before... :)

Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

So, I've decided... Even though I believe in God and think that Jesus was a "groovy cat" with lots of cool things to say, I'm going to start practicing Ki in the hopes that I too can snatch a bokken or shinai from across the room to defend myself against Sith randori!

(BTW this is supposed to be funny. :D )

Kevin Masters
10-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Duct Tape is like the force.
It has a light side and a dark side and it binds the universe together.

Feel free to give me an irimi-noogie if you've heard that before.

giriasis
10-01-2004, 03:06 PM
Feel free to give me an irimi-noogie if you've heard that before.

~Anne Marie promptly performs an Irimi-noogie to Kevin~

Kevin Masters
10-03-2004, 03:29 PM
Hehe.
:D

Ow. Too much noogie-Ki.

-Kev.

David_francis
10-24-2004, 06:14 PM
My friend who did karate for a while told me that his sensei said that his ki was an animal. This animal was inside him and he had to pick an animal which he thought defined himself eg tiger, bear etc. My friend who i admit is quite strange chose his ki animal to be a warthog.
I was thinking i might choose this way to try and find my ki, do you guys agree with this or do you think it would only be appropriate in karate?

deepsoup
10-24-2004, 06:49 PM
This animal was inside him and he had to pick an animal which he thought defined himself eg tiger, bear etc.
Sounds like your friends karate instructor is a big fan of Philip Pullman. :)

Yokaze
10-27-2004, 04:53 PM
I admit I'm fascinated by this entire thread.

If I'm not mistaken, trying to keep from using/feeling your ki would be like walking around with your eyes closed, or trying to stop breathing. It is a part of you whether you know, accept, like it or not. Some people like to think of it as their "soul," some think it's just another form of electromagnetic energy.

Let me explain my humble position in a way that might make sense. I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and in the Star Wars universe, there exists the Force. It binds all living things together and is the energy from which life comes and returns. With training, some have the ability to manipulate this energy to suit their purposes.

Would this power be evil? What if it was used to crush the windpipe of an incompetant subordinate? That use of the Force would certainly be considered evil by many. This type of use is commonly known as the Dark Side of the Force. On the other hand, if I use the Force to cloud an enemy's mind so I can slip by him without having to kill him, this would commonly be known as a good use, or the "Light Side" of the Force.

The Force, then, is both good and evil, and neither, depending on the user. It merely exists.

Ki, and Martial Arts in general, can be used for great good or great harm.

If a Reiki doctor can use his ki and the ki of his patient to kill cancer cells, is this not a gift? A miricle even?

Thoughts for you to chew on...

thomas_dixon
10-28-2004, 07:47 AM
Martial Arts are the Devil!!! (http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm)

Yes...I'm kidding. No, they're not.

Miguelspride67
10-28-2004, 10:40 AM
Aikikai ''is now at Dominican Republic" please enter this foro, answer my question.

Miguelspride67
10-28-2004, 10:44 AM
Chi or KI, is the universal energy, and we are an essential part of that universe. How could that be bad or evil?

thomas_dixon
10-29-2004, 06:50 PM
I think this is a classic example of people damning what they don't understand.

Infamousapa
10-29-2004, 08:08 PM
I Am Going To Be Straight Out. You People Need To Stop Thinking You Have Any Special Power Or Any Hokus Pokus Bullshit.ther Is Some Energy That Circles And Flows Throughout Our Bodies.and Thats That..some Martial Arts Out There Have Figured Out How To Re-use This Energy That Flows Against Us But That All.i Am Sick Of Seeing These Threads With Shit Like Ki Power Good Or Bad For Us.a Lot Of People Are Just Sick Of Living Or Having A Regular Life Or Shall I Say Being An Average Joe And Need And Want Some Excitement And Join Something They Think Is Supernatural And That They Are Becoming Super Human Beings..this Is What Is Bad For You.aikido Is A Great Martial Art And Really Works With Self Devolopment And Thats As Spiritual As It Gets..god Is The Only Way The Truth And The Life And Ill Talk To Yall Later..

thomas_dixon
10-29-2004, 08:18 PM
You need to stop capitalizing things.

People have different beliefs. Just because you believe in God, doesn't mean the next person doesn't believe in Shintoism, Buddha, etc.

Some people are afraid for what ever reason that belief of Chi or Ki is blasphemous, and will land them in hell. Aikido is based on Ki, that is part of the Martial Art.

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
10-30-2004, 02:26 AM
Ai Ki Do, I'm pretty sure the word Ki is in there somewhere Tony.

Aikido is based on ki. Get over it. It's not a big deal. Ki isn't hokus pokus at all. In fact there are some schools of thought I've come across referring to ki in very simple, practical, physical terms. Ki is like water, or Air, only much finer.

One Chinese Master I've had the privilege of talking to on the subject finds the way so many people speak of KI / Chi extremely hilarious. In the system he teaches Chi / Ki must be used the way a muscle would be, the same way the blood moves through the veins. It must also be present for the technique to work well. Just like AIKIDO.

The people we see in the world who have exceptional skill in this area have simply learned how to flex their Ki muscles effectively. Nothing mystical about it really. Its just that most of us haven't figured it out yet (me included).

It is a shame that you are so upset by KI. Considering that your Body is comprised of it.

Happy training to you.

Kevin Leavitt
10-30-2004, 06:10 AM
Tony you can make things even more simple than that. You live and then you die period. That is all their really is to "life" isn't it?

Fortunately, alot of interesting things hopefully happen in between that makes it worth living.

I think to not be on some sort of spiritual or exisitential quest is to mean that you are already dead. What is the point of an ant's life? He lives, but can he celebrate his living or does he just go about life reacting to things his instincts tell him to do?

While I believe all life is devine and humans have no more right to the ability to experience all that life has to offer, there is something special about being human and I am glad that I am.

Certainly it can be frustrating having KI discussions that seem to get rehashed over and over and over and over. I too find it frustrating sometime...if I didn't, I would not be honest or human.

However, as I have matured in my practice and in life in general, I now see and understand the need for aikidoka to discuss this ad nausem as it may be.

We are all in different stages of our quest to understand ourselves and understand all that is the world and all that is humanity. In fact, I think that is the reason many of us are involved with aikido whether we know it or not!

KI may be interpreted and experienced differently by different people. Just as we all have different paradiqms and backgrounds. That diversity is what causes conflict and at the same time is what we celebrate as the human dimension!

Sometimes people need to feel special. I know I do from time to time. It is human to want to feel that way and no one should feel bad about it. What I think is healthy is to recognize it for what it is..ego. It is only when we really start to believe that we are truely more special than others that causes problems.

As far as being average: I don't think anyone is average. We are all human beings and thus we are special! We have abilities and powers that exceed anything in the universe!!! Wow! How powerful is that!

If only we would recognize our specialness and use our powers for good things such as peace, harmony, and maybe trying to save our planet and world instead of systematically destroying it.

I believe the thought that we are average, or not special in anyway is really what is hurting us as humans...I mean why bother doing anything since we are all going to die any way....let someone else worry about it!

This is just another way to look at things, or the way I do!

Have a nice day!

Pauliina Lievonen
10-30-2004, 06:12 AM
Martial Arts are the Devil!!! (http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm)

Yes...I'm kidding. No, they're not.

Oooh, I loved this:

"Over and above this, there are Martial Arts techniques which cannot possibly be performed by anyone without the use of demonic power. Such a technique is the directing of ki at an opponent, or to lead the opponent to do what you want him to do, as is done in Aikido "

Demonic powers... :D evileyes :D

"Rigmarole of judo" was another favorite...

Thanks, that made for great reading with my breakfast!
kvaak
Pauliina

Kevin Leavitt
10-30-2004, 08:30 AM
Avoid an class which teaches breathing exercises;

So breathing is bad for you.

Avoid any class which teaches "meditation";

Thinking is bad for you.

Avoid any class which claims to teach a particular school, system, or type of "Martial Art", such as Wu Shu, Karate, Ju-jitsu, Spirit Combat, Feng-sao, or anything ending in -do (e.g. Judo, Yudo, Iaido, Aikido, etc.), as all refer to "Martial Arts";

Any thing Shu is bad for you so stay away from Wu Shu Pork.

Avoid any class which teaches "Eastern philosophy"

Expanding your mind and learning is bad for you..

Avoid any class which claims to utilize "latent power", for example, by encouraging students to develop their "inner potential" or "spiritual potential";

Tapping into your own self potential is bad for you.

Avoid any class which claims to give specific training to achieve "calmness of mind" or "equanimity", which is usually a euphemism for training in the cultivation of occult passivity;

Being calm and stressless is bad for you.


Wow, this article really cleared things up for me! Do people honestly live in so much fear of the what they do not know or understand.

I always thought fear was the enemy or the devil as some believe. It would seem to me that if you put your faith and trust into your lord or god you would not need to fear things such as KI.

Oh well! To eaches own.

MaryKaye
10-30-2004, 10:47 AM
Parts of this discussion remind me very much of something JRR Tolkien said (quoted, I think, by CS Lewis). He was commented on attacks on his books by people who felt that fantasy and "escapism" were dangerous.

"What kind of people would be the most concerned about, and the most hostile to, the concept of escape?

"Jailers."

When I see long lists of things you mustn't know about, study, experiment with, or even think about, that's my conclusion too.

Mary Kary

Kevin Leavitt
10-30-2004, 11:54 AM
It becomes an interesting topic discussion what things are "bad" and what things are "good".

It is quite possible, IMHO, to take something that is in the good category and have it be bad for you.

Both Buddha and Jesus talk about the concept of moderation.

While it may be "good" to read the bible and to try and live a good life, at some point I believe you can take it to an extreme and completely lose touch with reality and it become a "bad" thing.

Just like it may be good to eat certain foods or do certain activities, but when you over consume them, they become as bad.

If you practiced Aikido everyday 8 hours a day you may be very good at aikido, but if it causes you to neglect your spouse or family then it would be a bad thing and I would submit while becoming proficient at the skills offered through aikido, that you are probably a bad aikidoka.

Back to the thread:

It seems to me that the basic concept of fundamentalism in itself may not be a bad thing, but when taken to extremes and used as a tool to control it can be bad.

While we typically associate fundamentalism with things such as religion, we have it in aikido as well. Some dojos concentrate on KI. Nothing wrong with that, but I think if you take it to an extreme and take it very literally, you miss the point of aikido and you are missing out on alot of great experiences that the other aspects in the art have to offer.

I think it is good to experience things. Maybe not everything. For example I don't need to snort cocaine to know that it might be a bad choice. Society and the institutions tell me it is bad for me. I can accept that. I have also seen the effects on others to use as an example.

On the other hand, someone telling me that dogmatically the bible says that breathing exercises are bad for me gets a little more complicated. It might be good for some and not good for others. I think if someone tried it in moderation and then determined that they did not spiritually feel right when doing so, they could cease and then say that they feel they are wrong.

I guess we all make choices in life based on our belief systems and experiences. I think discovery learning is the best most of the time as long as you approach things in moderation.

Just some quick thoughts!

Qatana
10-30-2004, 06:16 PM
hmmm,Toga breathing.

Infamousapa
10-30-2004, 08:30 PM
You guys have many points there and much respect to your reply to my quote.But I do and felt the power of ki>What I was trying to say though is that it is completely natural.We are born with that ki energy..What is pissing me off though is when people take that term and want it to be spiritual or whatever.It is simply a matter of understanding ki principles vs becoming a spiritual ki god full of powers..

Kevin Leavitt
10-31-2004, 01:18 AM
ahhh...I have learned in my short life that whatever is pissing you off is your problem, not the other persons.

Aikido, IMHO, does a wonderful job of showing us that it is extremely difficult to force our will on other people.

And also, why bother.

who cares what other people find in KI? to you it is simply energy. To others it becomes something deep and spiritual. What does it really matter.

Moderation is the key (KI). On the extreme side someone who walks around the world pointing at objects thinking that he can move them with his mind and KI projection is probably deluded by his own ego. So be it.

How does that impact you? It really becomes the equivilant of the "emperors new clothes".

I do find "spiritual powers" within KI personally. I reallly don't understand how you cannot if you believe that life energy permeates all that exist and everything is interconnected. But that is me.

Somedays I do not feel spiritual and to me it is simply energy.

Again, to eaches own. We all as aikidoka must work together and be patient and cooperative with each other to learn this wonderful art. That means listening and understanding to me.

Hiros_Angel
11-02-2004, 06:28 PM
who cares what other people find in KI? to you it is simply energy. To others it becomes something deep and spiritual. What does it really matter.

...

How does that impact you? It really becomes the equivilant of the "emperors new clothes".

....

Again, to eaches own. We all as aikidoka must work together and be patient and cooperative with each other to learn this wonderful art. That means listening and understanding to me.

It doesn't matter what YOU, I, or ANYONE believe about something. The truth is out there, and there is only one truth. I can believe with all my heart that the sky is green while someone else may believe it's pink. Doesn't change the fact that it's actually blue.

I try to find the truth to everything I can. I've found the truth to life, and I'd like to find the truth behind ki. ..And there is a truth, no matter what we feeeeel. I don't claim to have that truth about it at this time, but please don't act like everyone can be right about ki when everybody's ideas totally contradict eachother.


:square:
*Sarah*

Hiros_Angel
11-02-2004, 06:35 PM
Chi or KI, is the universal energy, and we are an essential part of that universe. How could that be bad or evil?

... yes, but how do you know that's what ki/chi is?

Qatana
11-02-2004, 08:01 PM
Because O'Sensei Said So

L. Camejo
11-02-2004, 09:21 PM
... yes, but how do you know that's what ki/chi is?

Hi Sarah,

To start - if you've really found the truth to life, then I'd think Ki would be a no brainer. Just something to think about.:)

As far as "knowing truth" goes, this is based a lot on perception imo. We can only truly know anything when our perception is clear (or developed) enough to see something in it's true and basic form (something I think very very few humans if any are actually able to do, since our unconscious and subconscious minds can create many illusions that appear very real to us on the conscious level). I believe Ueshiba alluded to this and there are elements of this reality (about clearing perception to see the truth) indicated in the bible as well.

The truth is, how do you know that anything is true? What are the criteria? Does someone ancient and wise have to tell us? Does the concept have to stand up to scientific challenge and scrutiny to be true? Or do we "just know" what is true? Do our bodies truly exist or is it really an expression of energy projected from another consciousness level at a vibrational frequency that makes matter become manifest, making it appear real and true?

Imho truth itself is often a matter of perception and there are psychological tests to back this up from what I've read (finding them can be another problem though I think).

The basic definition of ki that we have heard is "energy". If we take a look at physics, matter is basically energy vibrating at a certain high frequency. So to extend the concept, one may say that matter is in essence energy. This may have something to do with the claims that ki is all around us, inside us etc. etc. etc. As such, if the various manifested religious icons (Christ, Bodidharma, Muhammad, Elvis etc. :)) existed in this physical universe, chances are they were made up of ki, in that they were beings of matter and by extension, energy. So this places an interesting dimension on the Good/Bad concept. If ki is evil and your personal saviour/prophet etc. was created from it in the physical world, what does it mean?

Personally I take a little bit of issue with those who see the world in black and white, right and wrong, the devil and God, as if in the event something is not one, it is automatically the other. Ki simply is, it exists. Just like air exists, light exists, natural elements exist. Depending on how one uses these things it can be used for good or evil purposes. If mankind did not walk the Earth and manipulate them, these things would still be existing in their natural states all things being equal.

There are people who use ki for healing, others who use it for destruction. It all depends on what you are healing or destroying. Most people don't use it at all, it's just there, existing, doing whatever it does.

So to me, searching for the truth about ki is not so important as knowing our own truth about it and really understanding why we believe it to be true. We may even go further to test the veracity of our truth by systematically challenging it's foundations. True things have a way of withstanding the various tests of time imo.

I can believe with all my heart that the sky is green while someone else may believe it's pink. Doesn't change the fact that it's actually blue.

Of course the colour blue is a human definition of a particular mixture of light as seen through eyes that perceive mixtures of red, blue and green. Suppose our natural sight as a species saw the exact same sky from an entirely different light spectrum, would it still be blue or a colour we have yet to define? Because we can perceive something does not mean that we are perceiving the totality of that thing, only what we are capable of perceiving based on our limitations as a species.

Just my thoughts. Reality is what you make it. Ki simply is - good or bad depends on you, much like everything else.

LC:ai::ki:

Hiros_Angel
11-03-2004, 08:36 AM
Because O'Sensei Said So

right .. and how did he know? He was just a man .. how can you hang so tightly on just another man's words? From what you all say about him, I have no doubts that he was very wise ...but even wise men are faulty because they are still human.


:straightf *Sarah*

Hiros_Angel
11-03-2004, 08:48 AM
Larry,
Thanks for the reply. :) It will take me a while to gather my thoughts about everything you've said, but I do have to say that a lot of the things you said make sense. I don't know yet that I agree, but you are the only one I think so far that has given me an explanation opposing my view that is actually thoroghly thought out. I will get back to you. Might take me a little bit. :)

:circle: ~Sarah

Qatana
11-03-2004, 09:10 AM
Sarah that was a Joke.
Sorry, i don't use smilies.
But just because something is in the Bible, how does anyone know its the truth, either?
I did give you the same answer as Larry in the other thread you asked this question in...

Hiros_Angel
11-03-2004, 12:08 PM
Sarah that was a Joke.
Sorry, i don't use smilies.
But just because something is in the Bible, how does anyone know its the truth, either?
I did give you the same answer as Larry in the other thread you asked this question in...


Firstly, I'm sorry :sorry: ... honestly, I haven't found what you've said in this thread that was like Larry's, but I believe you feel the same way. I just meant only his response gave me even a little reason (evidence) to consider other thoughts. (from the responses I've seen) Show me what you posted and I'd like to honestly read it ..because I didn't mean to offend you. If you did say the same thing, I'm sorry for being a snob. It's not your fault if I just didn't see it.

Also, I recommed the smileys :) They're just a click away, and they really do add feeling to what you type ...and prove to be less confusing to those of us who are a bit ditzy. :confused:

The reason I didn't take it as a joke is because quite a few of the replies I've come across suggest that if Osensai said it, it's true and right.

Ok, so people have been trying to prove the Bible wrong for many years, but nobody has been able to do so. Lee Strobel (author of Case for Christ) dedicated himself to proving Christianity a myth and the Bible wrong, and became a Christian in the process. When your goal is to find truth, it won't hide from you. If you study the truth, lies will become more obvious. (ex. the professionals who can recognize counterfeit money don't study counterfeits ...they strongly study real money.) If the Bible had even just one mistake, I would have to chuck it in the garbage. Everything provable in the Bible has been proven right, and some things you have to accept by faith. If the "provable" things are correct, I have good reason to have faith in the aspects that require my faith. But if there were one probable error (like a scientific error), my faith would surely be based on a lie ... which would be pointless.

How do you know the Bible isn't true? How do you know there isn't a truth? You all basically say truths are relative, not absolute. (there are no absolute truths), right? ..but by saying that, aren't you proving yourselves wrong? By saying "there are no truths" or "truths are relative" ...your statement is absolute ... Can we live without truths..? If not, there has to be wrongs..?


:straightf ~Sarah

Hiros_Angel
11-03-2004, 12:24 PM
Of course the colour blue is a human definition of a particular mixture of light as seen through eyes that perceive mixtures of red, blue and green. Suppose our natural sight as a species saw the exact same sky from an entirely different light spectrum, would it still be blue or a colour we have yet to define? Because we can perceive something does not mean that we are perceiving the totality of that thing, only what we are capable of perceiving based on our limitations as a species.

Just my thoughts. Reality is what you make it. Ki simply is - good or bad depends on you, much like everything else.

LC:ai::ki:

eee, thanks for pointing out my poor anology. :uch: I didn't think of it like that. Right now, I'm thinking there are things in life that are opinion, or different to different people depending on how we preceive them. But aren't all opinions and perceptions based on a truth? Like, people can have all the opinions about something they want, but underneath it all lies a truth..? Isn't it possible to have different perceptions about a lie and different perceptions about a truth? But none-th-less there is still a truth involved? Do you get what I'm saying ...or am I confusing..?


;) --Sarah

ps. do you believe ki is a supernatural energy..?

Kevin Leavitt
11-03-2004, 12:44 PM
how do you define supernatural?

Hiros_Angel
11-03-2004, 04:03 PM
how do you define supernatural?

like outside our natural world. a world that our natural human minds can't fully understand. the world where God, satan, spirits and angels exist ...do you believe that?

Hiros_Angel
11-03-2004, 04:09 PM
there are no truths <-- so that's true?

Charles Hill
11-03-2004, 07:01 PM
[QUOTE=Thomas Dixon]Martial Arts are the Devil!!! (http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm)QUOTE]

I found this article to be a correct description of the asian martial arts, especially Aikido. The author clearly understands the spiritual concepts of Aikido in a way that many Aikido practitioners themselves do not. I just disagree with him on whether it is good or not. I am seriously thinking about copying the article, cutting out the (faux) Christianity stuff and using it as a definition of correct Aikido. I`m not kidding.

Charles Hill

L. Camejo
11-03-2004, 07:08 PM
Right now, I'm thinking there are things in life that are opinion, or different to different people depending on how we preceive them. But aren't all opinions and perceptions based on a truth? Like, people can have all the opinions about something they want, but underneath it all lies a truth..? Isn't it possible to have different perceptions about a lie and different perceptions about a truth? But none-th-less there is still a truth involved? Do you get what I'm saying ...or am I confusing..?

Exactly Sarah.

Imo the absolute underlying truth exists and it is there all the time in our faces. It's just that I don't think that the nature of the human mind allows for a clear and definite perception of this truth easily, since the real truth actually exists beneath all the facades we subconsciously construct from a very early age as members of society, religions, families and other influences. We are from the very beginning affected by all the other constructs of our reality that starts to influence and change our basic, unassuming primordial perception as we grow older and become more immersed in the "material" or "manifest" world.

What this does (again alluded to by Ueshiba M. and Christ as well) is create a "dark glass" so to speak, a system of filters (aka the subconscious and conscious aspects of the mind) that takes in the raw, unadulterated truth and edits, modifies, censors and refines this information into something that is more palatable to our present state of mind and view of reality. As such, when in a "conscious" state we are in fact unconscious of what is really going on and only get what our self-created internal filter systems have allowed us to see.

So I agree with you, i think the truth is always there, I just don't think that the vast majority of the time we see it for exactly what it is, without the filters. Who we refer to as genii, wise men, seers etc. may be people who have been able to eliminate some of the filters, maybe even all of them to see the "real" as is, therefore being able to function in a manner that may seem supernatural to us. But this is not supernatural, it is merely the common realm of a trained and evolved mind, something all of us are capable of.

In a spiritual context (not a religious one mind you), one may see God (or the original entity that may have started creation in the first place) as the unadulterated truth and the teachings of any religion as man's perception of that truth as handed down through history by wise and learned people who shared in the same understanding and perception etc.

Getting back to the blue sky analogy. For people who wear red tinted sunglasses, the sky may appear purple. If they had been wearing red lenses from birth, everything would take on a red tinge. The sky would appear purple. For those people without the red lenses, the sky appears blue. The colour of the sky is true to both sets of people. Neither person is more correct than the other, since both are looking through filter systems that limit their perception of the whole. The person who looks with the naked eye may see more true colour, but he is still limited to the red, blue green colour spectrum of the eye itself as indicated earlier.

There are various levels of clarity and therefore many levels of perception itself, and they are all "true" to some degree on a localised, personal level. The interesting part with human beings starts when one decides to tell the other that what he is perceiving is in fact incorrect. Incorrect by whose standard? Isn't the other person's perception limited as well?

ps. do you believe ki is a supernatural energy..?

Nope, since I believe that there is no such thing as a supernatural reality, only what is not yet found to be natural by the human conscious self. The words "super natural" alludes to "that which is outside of the natural functioning of the world". It in fact means "that which is outside of our perception of what is the functioning of the natural world". In my humble opinion of course.:)

Just my 5 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
11-03-2004, 10:21 PM
like outside our natural world. a world that our natural human minds can't fully understand. the world where God, satan, spirits and angels exist ...do you believe that?

No because if I use contemporary logic it goes like this:

God created the universe, there for the universe is god.

Our world is a part of the universe, our world is god.

My philosophy has god, or the concept of god as everything.

If you believe that god is the supreme being in the universe and that the earth was literally create by him, then how can you say that there is anything that is outside of God's realm?

So I believe there is no such thing as supernatural. Concepts such as demons, angels, etc. would be a part of god, just like KI would be. Everything in the universe is unified and interrealated.

Many things are too complex for the human brain to really grasp, and that is okay.

That is my view of things.

Hiros_Angel
11-04-2004, 04:51 PM
Exactly Sarah.

Imo the absolute underlying truth exists and it is there all the time in our faces. It's just that I don't think that the nature of the human mind allows for a clear and definite perception of this truth easily, since the real truth actually exists beneath all the facades we subconsciously construct from a very early age as members of society, religions, families and other influences. We are from the very beginning affected by all the other constructs of our reality that starts to influence and change our basic, unassuming primordial perception as we grow older and become more immersed in the "material" or "manifest" world.

What this does (again alluded to by Ueshiba M. and Christ as well) is create a "dark glass" so to speak, a system of filters (aka the subconscious and conscious aspects of the mind) that takes in the raw, unadulterated truth and edits, modifies, censors and refines this information into something that is more palatable to our present state of mind and view of reality. As such, when in a "conscious" state we are in fact unconscious of what is really going on and only get what our self-created internal filter systems have allowed us to see.

So I agree with you, i think the truth is always there, I just don't think that the vast majority of the time we see it for exactly what it is, without the filters. Who we refer to as genii, wise men, seers etc. may be people who have been able to eliminate some of the filters, maybe even all of them to see the "real" as is, therefore being able to function in a manner that may seem supernatural to us. But this is not supernatural, it is merely the common realm of a trained and evolved mind, something all of us are capable of.

In a spiritual context (not a religious one mind you), one may see God (or the original entity that may have started creation in the first place) as the unadulterated truth and the teachings of any religion as man's perception of that truth as handed down through history by wise and learned people who shared in the same understanding and perception etc.

Getting back to the blue sky analogy. For people who wear red tinted sunglasses, the sky may appear purple. If they had been wearing red lenses from birth, everything would take on a red tinge. The sky would appear purple. For those people without the red lenses, the sky appears blue. The colour of the sky is true to both sets of people. Neither person is more correct than the other, since both are looking through filter systems that limit their perception of the whole. The person who looks with the naked eye may see more true colour, but he is still limited to the red, blue green colour spectrum of the eye itself as indicated earlier.

There are various levels of clarity and therefore many levels of perception itself, and they are all "true" to some degree on a localised, personal level. The interesting part with human beings starts when one decides to tell the other that what he is perceiving is in fact incorrect. Incorrect by whose standard? Isn't the other person's perception limited as well?



Nope, since I believe that there is no such thing as a supernatural reality, only what is not yet found to be natural by the human conscious self. The words "super natural" alludes to "that which is outside of the natural functioning of the world". It in fact means "that which is outside of our perception of what is the functioning of the natural world". In my humble opinion of course.:)

Just my 5 cents.
LC:ai::ki:


See, actually ... after thinking about it all, I do agree with your sky analogy ... the way you explained it. Now this is where you and probably many others may totally disagree with me, but I do believe there is one way to see that "truth" ... to remove those "colored lenses". But not by anything we do. (ex. training our mind) We are only human, and, just as I have heard a lot on this board, there are some things our human minds just can't know. Not without help, at least, as I believe. That's why I believe the Bible is our "guide book". I know I just mentioned the Bible :eek: and that seems to be a no-no here (well, to actually take it seriously) ..but just bare with me. :) Jesus was the only one who claimed to be the way. The others that I know of claimed to know the way ..but only one claimed to be the way. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I also know that so many say that it all doesn't mean He is really, actually "the way". He could have been psycho or a big liar. But firstly, he was the only one who claimed to be the way, and historical studies have been done that give evidence that He wasn't crazy (I recommend reading Case for Christ :) ) .. and for those who say he was just a "good man". a "good man" wouldn't lie. And if he's not the way.. wow, that is a pretty big lie. So, anyway, isn't it at least worth a try to look into it? What if He really can remove those colored sun glasses, and open up your eyes? I know you don't believe it, but just suppose there was one way to see clearly and remove the lenses ... wouldn't you want to?

The interesting part with human beings starts when one decides to tell the other that what he is perceiving is in fact incorrect. Incorrect by whose standard? Isn't the other person's perception limited as well?

I actually totally agree with you there. I believe that when humans use what they see with their lenses and claim them to be truth, things are confusing. That's why I feel we can't see clearly on our own. We can't go by our standards alone. Our standards need a bigger basis ..

Oh, and back to the whole lenses thing .. the Bible actually uses that. When Saul became a follower of Christ (then Paul), the Bible says "..and the scales from his eyes were removed .." So the Bible is in agreement of the fact that we are blinded from the basic truth. But it also says there is one way for our eyes to be opened. :eek:

Doesn't it make sense that all ideas form from one truth? I believe that's why there are so many religions and ideas (philosophies) out there ... because they are a result of us trying to do things on our own. (as humans) Isn't that how gossip starts ... there is one true story, but then people don't understand it, twist it, add to it, delete from it, or totally change it .. and then the result is a whole bunch of false rumors.

Also, I do believe in a supernatural world ... but you knew that, right? :) Do you believe you have a soul? I do ..and that they are supernatural. Your physical body will die ... but does your soul die too? I believe that your physical body is a physical "home" for your supernatural soul ...but when your body dies, your soul goes on ...somewhere else. (the supernatural world). And knowing the "truth" on earth determines where your soul goes.

What do you think about all this? :)



*~Sarah~*

Hiros_Angel
11-04-2004, 05:12 PM
No because if I use contemporary logic it goes like this:

God created the universe, there for the universe is god.

Our world is a part of the universe, our world is god.

My philosophy has god, or the concept of god as everything.

If you believe that god is the supreme being in the universe and that the earth was literally create by him, then how can you say that there is anything that is outside of God's realm?

So I believe there is no such thing as supernatural. Concepts such as demons, angels, etc. would be a part of god, just like KI would be. Everything in the universe is unified and interrealated.

Many things are too complex for the human brain to really grasp, and that is okay.

That is my view of things.


If you believe that god is the supreme being in the universe and that the earth was literally create by him, then how can you say that there is anything that is outside of God's realm?

because I don't believe the supernatural world is outside His realm. I believe everything, natural and supernatural alike, was created by Him.

I also agree with you that God created the universe ... but how does that make the universe God? Doesn't it just make the universe God's creation? I can paint a picture, but that doesn't make the picture me. It shows my talent, ability, and creativity (which is all a part of me) ...but the picture is not me. Our world is also a creation of God. Not God, but His creation. Everything is just a little illustration of what God can do. Maybe you could say everything is a reflection of God ...but it is not Him.

Everything created has to have a creator ..every design a designer. So I don't believe I am my own god because God created me ... but rather God created me, and I should focus on Him ....


*~ :) Sarah~*

Hiros_Angel
11-04-2004, 06:45 PM
Basically, with the whole "relative" concept that you all believe ...it doesn't matter what anyone thinks it true. So who really cares? In the end, it doesn't even matter, right? What's the purpose of anything? Life is just life, and then what ...who cares? But what if what I believe really is true? Then in the end, it really does matter. Wouldn't you rather be safe then sorry? Why not learn more about why Christians believe what they do ... and learn more about the only one (Jesus) who claimed to be THE way? Some of you may laugh, be sarcastic, or take all this lightly ...but seriously.. think about it. :-/ I mean, if I'm right and there really is one way, and there really is more to life, it's not gonna be funny when you find out too late. Evidence is important in life .. and there is quite a bit out there.(in most cases, very close by) I mean, think what you will, but why not dig into this "way" ...seriously get into it, even with an attitude ... see what happens :-/ <3 :)

Pauliina Lievonen
11-04-2004, 07:24 PM
Wouldn't you rather be safe then sorry?

Please don't take this the wrong way... but I really do hope that this isn't the motivation of your belief. :)

As to ki, I'll keep out of the discussion, since I don't really believe in the idea in a meaningful way for this discussion...

kvaak
Pauliina

Hiros_Angel
11-04-2004, 08:15 PM
Please don't take this the wrong way... but I really do hope that this isn't the motivation of your belief. :)

As to ki, I'll keep out of the discussion, since I don't really believe in the idea in a meaningful way for this discussion...

kvaak
Pauliina

oh, no ... that is definately my motivation. I just hoped that maybe for others who have a totally different idea, going into the search with that mind set might reveal the real motivation. :) But no, I definately didn't mean to come across like that ... I can't even begin to describe why I need this faith ..and even if i could, and then did ... I dunno if it would matter. <33

Kristian Miller-Karlsen
11-04-2004, 09:20 PM
Aikido is a path devoted to the reconciliation of humankind. A path based on love, harmony and balance.

Christianity is a way of life based on the reconciliation of humankind to God, and of human being to human being. A path based on love and the following of certain laws and obligations.

I am certain that Jesus said that if struck, you must turn the other cheek. In Aikido we turn the cheek before it is struck.

The practice of Aikido does not impose anything on it's practitioners. It does ask however that a practitoiner maintain and practice methods/techniques based on harmony, love and respect for all of humankind. To practice Aikido one does not need to renounce any religious, political or social beliefs,provided that those beliefs are based on harmony, love and respect.

I deeply respect the teachings of Jesus. He was the same in word and deed. The followers of Jesus therefore must also be the same in word and deed, based on the life of Christ.

God is present in all our surroundings. We know God is everywhere because we are sustained. Our food, the air we breath, the very beating of our hearts are indications of Gods presence. God's essence is in all things.

To think that God would destroy us for practicing an art of peace is laughable.

No I am not a Christian. I believe in God and tolerance of others beliefs. Peace is peace, not war.

Hiros_Angel
11-04-2004, 11:01 PM
oh, no ... that is definately my motivation.

...definately NOT****** :)

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2004, 12:15 AM
Great post Kristian my thoughts exactly.

Back to the Supernatural concept.

If I understand you correctly. You have stated that God is responsible for the supernatural world. So if you believe KI to be a part of it, then how do you know if it is good or evil? If I am following you correctly, you believe that both good and evil exist in the supernatural world? Both angels and demons exist there right? Also I think you are saying that you lump everything that is not understandable by humans in there?

Based on what I think I understand about you is that if you believe in the concept of KI, then you would have to believe that it comes from God.

Hope this helps.

Infamousapa
11-05-2004, 12:41 AM
The bottomline is we have to be thankful for what we got and serve our lord.In the good old book(bible)It clearly stated not to worship the sun the moon or the stars in the sky.It only leads to deception.NOTHING IS SPIRITUAL WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST..

L. Camejo
11-05-2004, 11:24 AM
but I do believe there is one way to see that "truth" ... to remove those "colored lenses". But not by anything we do. (ex. training our mind) We are only human, and, just as I have heard a lot on this board, there are some things our human minds just can't know. Not without help, at least, as I believe. That's why I believe the Bible is our "guide book". I know I just mentioned the Bible :eek: and that seems to be a no-no here (well, to actually take it seriously) ..but just bare with me. :) Jesus was the only one who claimed to be the way. The others that I know of claimed to know the way ..but only one claimed to be the way. (correct me if I'm wrong)

See, now here is where the psychological concept of self-fulfilling prophecy comes up. Many so-called Christians believe the Bible to be the guide book and the guide book says that Christ said he was "the way, truth and the light." Now this is based on many assumptions - 1) That the humans who wrote the manuscripts initially were not in fact blurred by their own lenses to the truth while writing it, 2) That the observer effect did not take place and the stories and words were rewritten as they appeared, unchanged 3) That the linguistic abilities of the translators were able to effectively convey that which was being taught in a foreign place, culture and time. The language of Christ's day and region was Aramaic from which things were translated to Latin at some point and then into English. It'd be very interesting if the exact meanings of words came down thru the many versions. As we know, there are many versions of the guide book, which one you believe to be true determines the lense through which you perceive religious and spiritual reality. The illusions are everywhere, even in the guide book.:)

As a result I don't use the guide book as the final source of info, since the writers of the book itself cannot agree on which is correct. I think the guides who know the path and walk it regularly, or have walked it are a better source of information. The key is to clear away my own lenses to understand what they are saying. Between the guide book and the guides I may be able to get an idea of what the path is truly about and figure out how to walk it. This is just my opinion of course. I don't think any one person has the whole story.

What if He really can remove those colored sun glasses, and open up your eyes? I know you don't believe it, but just suppose there was one way to see clearly and remove the lenses ... wouldn't you want to?

And if there were many ways of removing these lenses, of which the person you are looking at now may present only one, wouldn't you want to have a deeper and broader understanding of the same concept to be able to walk the path with knowledge gained from multiple perspectives?

We can't go by our standards alone. Our standards need a bigger basis ..

Agreed, which is why it may be a good idea to check around and see what others are saying before one decides to wholly accept any truth.

Doesn't it make sense that all ideas form from one truth? I believe that's why there are so many religions and ideas (philosophies) out there ... because they are a result of us trying to do things on our own. (as humans) Isn't that how gossip starts ... there is one true story, but then people don't understand it, twist it, add to it, delete from it, or totally change it .. and then the result is a whole bunch of false rumors.

Exactly, and do you have really, any idea what has been deleted, even recently from the guide book that many Christians currently possess? Even in the early stages the Apocripher was decided by a bunch of normal people to be erased from the official writings because they were the "questionable" texts. There is a lot more info out there that makes up the "Bible" that folks are so quick to quote in infallibility.

Also, I do believe in a supernatural world ... but you knew that, right? :) Do you believe you have a soul? I do ..and that they are supernatural. Your physical body will die ... but does your soul die too? I believe that your physical body is a physical "home" for your supernatural soul ...but when your body dies, your soul goes on ...somewhere else. (the supernatural world). And knowing the "truth" on earth determines where your soul goes.

To me, the soul is as natural as the air I breathe, there is absolutely nothing supernatural about it. It's return to the universe is also a natural thing. In fact the life/death cycle is a natural and unavoidable part of existence imo. But that is my take.

Getting back to the topic of Ki, it can be many things to many people. People will always believe what they want to unless given unignorable proof to the contrary. To me, ki is a very physical thing manifested by a coordination of energy - mental, muscular, emotional and otherwise. It can also exist in a more generic form as indicated by those who say it is merely energy, the "stuff" that creates the universe, that ties together all things. I understand that the views of the world that some develop due to religious or other conceptual systems can influence one's view of something like Ki, since its definition may lie in its classification. For those who believe in a supernatural world that exists separately from the natural world, there can be a problem with Ki if it is classified as supernatural, because these people also tend to have an inordinate (and often unjustified) amount of fear and apprehension to that which they don't understand, for example the so-called supernatural. This fear is a product of their paradigms, the conceptual system through which they view things like Ki. The question is, is this fear justified or have you been programmed to fear these things for someone else's purpose?

This thread reminds me of a saying I heard once - "If we live in a world whose existence can only be defined by that which is definable, catalogable (sp?) and categorisable, then what happens to us when we encounter something that will not be defined, catalogued or categorised? For many, the answer is total confusion.

Just my few cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Hiros_Angel
11-05-2004, 03:54 PM
If I am following you correctly, you believe that both good and evil exist in the supernatural world? Both angels and demons exist there right?

mmhmm ....

.. Based on what I think I understand about you is that if you believe in the concept of KI, then you would have to believe that it comes from God. ....

Why should I have to believe it comes from God? Based on what I believe, why couldn't ki be evil? Since I believe good and evil are both a part of the supernatural world (and that our natural world is a reflection of it) ... it can be of Satan. I believe God created us in the image of Him with a free will, and he created angels with a free will. Evil formed from those in Heaven that used their free will to turn against God. (Lucifer turned away --> Satan; some angels turned away --> demons) So, I've said it before, but God did not create evil. Though, neither did Satan ... it is just the absence of good .. just as dark is the absence of light. So if ki is evil (which is possible), it does not come from God. (since evil doesn't come from God, it is the effect of turning from the true God) Evil is Satan's territory because he is as sinful as sinful can get. (in Heaven, Lucifer was supposedly God's highest angel) So I believe God created angels with a free will, so they wouldn't be "puppets". Same for us ...except he made us different, in a natural form. He made us and loved us, and wanted us to love Him back ... but genuine love is not by force, it is by choice .. the reason he created us with our free will.

I'm pretty sure of the following, but not exactly (so do correct me please :) ) ...

- you feel ... God is impersonal
- man is divine (not a sinner)
- the world is getting better, not worse (the theme of evolution ..?)
- man is getting better, not worse
- salvation has nothing to do with diliverance from sin
- miracles are from the mind of man ^
- nothing is for certain


.. let me know :) I hope I cleared my beliefs up a bit. There's so much more I could say, but that's it for now. :)


<3 Sarah

Hiros_Angel
11-05-2004, 08:52 PM
Now this is based on many assumptions - 1) That the humans who wrote the manuscripts initially were not in fact blurred by their own lenses to the truth while writing it, 2) That the observer effect did not take place and the stories and words were rewritten as they appeared, unchanged 3) That the linguistic abilities of the translators were able to effectively convey that which was being taught in a foreign place, culture and time.

1) If that's true, we should expect to find lots of mistakes in the Bible, shouldn't we? (ex. the Bible says *and always has* that "the stars are not numerable" ... if the people who wrote the Bible were "blurred" and not guided by the holy spirit, as the Bible teaches, we would not expect them to write this truth that the stars are without number. We would expect them to write what man through the centuries has thought ...that there are less than 10,000 stars. (before the time of Galileo and the telescope) Also, the book of Job says that "..God hung the earth on nothing .." .. other religions and philosophies of the time have had various ideas of what held up the earth. (ideas we laugh at today :), but they were serious .. just as serious as the Bible was and still is )

2) Again, if that were true, I would expect to see errors.

3) You're right.. different translations can have errors. Maybe not major, but errors none-the-less. BUT we can always go back to the copies of the original manuscripts that were written in Hebrew and Greek .. to check out the translations and refine them. As far as copies of manuscripts, there was a segment of Jewish society (the scribes) and it was their purpose to copy the manuscripts faithfully .. and they had special procedures to insure that faithful copies were made. --- this was varified when the dead sea scrolls were found, which are 1,000 years older than the oldest existing manuscripts at that time.




And if there were many ways of removing these lenses, of which the person you are looking at now may present only one, wouldn't you want to have a deeper and broader understanding of the same concept to be able to walk the path with knowledge gained from multiple perspectives?

I haven't always been this strong a Christian. I used to feel a little snobby about accepting only my faith as truth ... even though I still did have pretty good assurance that it was. I definately, definately had doubts (it's okay to doubt, it's how you learn) .. and I looked into other belief systems and religions. I was interested in what others believed and why they did so .. and I actually still am. Everything I studied only made Christianity and the Bible even clearer. :straightf

But to answer your question ... no, not really. :-/ According to my beliefs, I have to either fully accept, or fully decline. Jesus either really was the way, or he wasn't. I can't follow every path, or else I'd have to completely disreguard my Christian faith. Believe it or not, I do respect the paths others choose to follow. According to my faith, however, there is only one way ... and I want others to know it. I in no way would force it ... in fact I can't. I attempt to present it in a persuasive manner, but that is all I can and will do. My "guidebook" even agrees that my faith shouldn't be forced ... it says if they do not accept the truth, dust off your feet and move on. I just wanted to let it be known that it is not my motive to "force" any of this on anyone. :) I am only looking to persuade, as you are me, right? :)

Christianity is unique ... it stands out from all the other religions and belief systems. All the others focus on "self" in some way or another, while Christianity focuses on salvation though Jesus. Everything else hopes to get to "heaven", be eternally rewarded somehow or achieve peace through themselves ... it's all about self. The Bible is the only religious book that carries the message of grace.


Even in the early stages the Apocripher was decided by a bunch of normal people to be erased from the official writings because they were the "questionable" texts. There is a lot more info out there that makes up the "Bible" that folks are so quick to quote in infallibility.

The Apocripher was not originally in the Jewish Bible, before the time of Christ. It was added after the Roman Cathoic reformation. They should have never been added in the first place because the ancient writings were never biblical texts to begin with. They were only added under Catholic influence.



To me, the soul is as natural as the air I breathe, there is absolutely nothing supernatural about it. It's return to the universe is also a natural thing. In fact the life/death cycle is a natural and unavoidable part of existence imo. But that is my take.

The question is, is this fear justified or have you been programmed to fear these things for someone else's purpose?

Honestly, do you have fear? Cuz me, it's just my theory, but I think everyone has this fear ... like we're supposed to have this fear ...



<3 Sarah

Kevin Leavitt
11-06-2004, 06:18 AM
you feel ... God is impersonal

For me it is not so "black and white". God is a big concept. Too big and too great for any human to really conceive of and understand. I try not to personify, to do so confines God to the limited understanding of man. I cannot say that he is impersonal, or indifferent. Not sure it really matters what I think or feel about that. What is important to me is that I am aware of my actions and how they affect me and the world. to simplify, I try to tread lightly on the earth and do good deeds. I believe that if there exist a man sitting on a cloud up there, that this is what he would expect of all of us.

I am critical of many Christians that think the world was put here by God to serve us and that we can abuse and use it, to me if there is a God, then


- man is divine (not a sinner)

Concept of sin is also a human concept that is not so "black and white". I would not subscribe to the definition of Sin that I grew up with in the Christian church. What I experienced is man judging the actions of man based on Man's judgement and interpretation of the bible. In many instances through history the concept of Sin has been used as a tool to achieve power over other men.

If you must use the words "sin", then there are certainly actions that humans take that are poor choices, most fall in line with social values/norms that allow us to function as a society. You can find this as a common thread in all religions and societies. Certainly the bible as a "rule book" covers this pretty good.

But, then you get into the concept of divinity of man. This is where things get a little tricky. In my mind, life in general is divine. If there is a God and he did create us in his image, then we are all a part of the big machine. Everything we do affects something in the world and universe in some small way. Again, as a concept of God....way to big for any one human to understand completely.

Your basic concept is that Man is inherently bad, which is basic Calvinist, protestant doctrine. Calvin wasn't necessarily a bad person, I just don't subscribe to his belief that man is bad. Man is neither good nor bad....man just is man. Man has free will and can choose to do good or bad actions.

By believing that man is bad, I think you set yourself on a negative spiral. This dualisitc philosophy causes conflict within you, even if you aren't aware of it. You doubt yourself and think of yourself as unworthy. If you cannot love yourself and feel good and celebrate your existence and humanity, then that conflict will reflect outward in your actions.

Why bother to conserve energy and take care of the planet? We then start looking at others and judging them as "bad" you then get to War.

The protestant work ethic came from this concept formed by Calvin. If I work hard and show a humble life then god will reward my efforts. So people began to see that God rewards them on earth. Hence you have the "haves" and the "have nots".

I could go on and on...but again, Man is Man...nothing more nothing less. We need to all celebrate humanity and the world and realize that we are part of a great universe and a great god, if you will. Until we realize and embrace this, we will continue to think dualistically and continue to have conflict.

Ideal? ...Yes, but something to work toward.


- the world is getting better, not worse (the theme of evolution ..?)

Again, you pose a dualistic question. The world just exist. It is neither getting better or getting worse...it is evolving. It is getting worse in many ways from humans. We are the single greatest threat on the planet. We are destroying our environment.

Many fundamentalist Christians I know have some disturbing outlooks on this. Lets forgo the whole evolution argument for now and just say that thing are what they are today. I find it ironic that some believe that God is all divine and nothing else and man is bad. They then say that the world and all the resources were put here for man to use as we see fit..and that is okay cause in the end there will be a day of reckoning and the world will be divided into two groups those that accept Jesus as their saviour and those who have not.

I cannot fathom the concept that it is not a sin to destroy the world in God's eyes. I sit in disbelief that THEY feel THEY can interpret what is okay to do to the planet. It is ironic that while they believe that man in not divine that THEY can interpret the divinity of God!

You know, if you really must believe literally in the concept of heaven and hell...duality mind you...then I would say that it is possible to already be in Hell on earth by living a unhappy life surrounded by War, poverty, delusion etc. All self imposed through the actions of man.

- man is getting better, not worse

In many ways man is growing....in other ways we continue to not learn our lessons. I have hope that we will achieve peace in harmony, also known as heaven, one day. I think it is a cop out to accept man as inherently bad then use a concept of God to shift the responsibility on.

We do this all day long. We blame the teachers for not teaching our kids. We sue our doctors when our expectations are not met. We blame our parents for a bad childhood. We use the concept of God and our varioius books of the bible, Koran, etc...to justify our actions when we go to War.

It is not so easy to say that man is getting worse. man is man. We do need to consider our actions and the effects of them. Bottom line, make good choices.

- salvation has nothing to do with diliverance from sin

Not sure how to answer this one really...but here it goes...

Salvation lies in each one of us. If you believe God created us...I would hope that he would what us to all do our best. Using our free will to make mistakes and to learn from them...internalize our lessons and adapt/evolve.

We have great institutions for this to occur. Churches, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist what not..are all there to help us realize our inner potential and help us understand spirituality. It is personal in nature, we must all find our own path. If you and I disagree on one thing it may be that there is only one path to redemption. I think there are many, many paths...and they all lead to the same place.

Deliverance from Sin is our responsibility. I am not a bibical scholar by any means, but I believe that Jesus wanted us to love and to use him as an example of compassion and love. to use him as a vessel to realize this. Yes he is a path to greatness, but Buddha, Mohammed, and others are there as well.

I realize that you may not accept this or agree, and that is okay. The whole point to me is that you are on a path and realizing your potential.

Again, I stated in a previous post that there is room in my mind/heart for all....but is there room in yours for everyone? I know from what I was taught growing up that Jesus had room for all.

- miracles are from the mind of man ^

Not sure where miracles are from. Not sure it matters. Again, the concept of God is huge. We cannot begin to understand how the universe works. If you believe he created it that is fine too....it is still too great in scope to understand from the limited minds of humans.

While our intellectual capacity may be limited, our potential to achieve greatness is not! There are multitudes of stories where man has overcome adversity. The Catholic church tends to label these people Saints.

Again, miracles just like everything else just happen...who knows why or how. To me it is not important only to celebrate that they do occur.


- nothing is for certain

Not exactly sure what you mean by nothing is for certain. We don't really know why things happen. I do feel that the world is not random in nature. There is order and structure and everything is dependent on everything else in the universe at a basic level. It is certain that if man continues to pollute the world that it will not look like it does today in the future!

Again, we need to consider our actions and be "listen" to how they affect the world. Seeking to understand and be sympathetic to the subtle shifts that occur, watching for the changes, positive and negative. If we as humans don't do this we won't see the conflict that we are creating. It will continue to pop up.

The current wars we are fighting are third order effects from things we have been doing for well over 100 years. It was "certain" that the wars would occur based on the course of events that led up to them. Eastern Philosophy calls this Karma. Karma, might I add, is not predestination as many westerners might think. Most westerners think that predestination is unavoidable and set forth by a interferring God. Karma is your nature, but you can affect it's destiny through your actions.

So, things do happen for a reason, but we as humans have control over it in many ways. We need to realize this if we are going to have peace.

What I have just described to you is KI. It is not mysterious and not supernatural. It is inate in all of us and we can use it for good or bad.

The Aikido dojo is not a religious place, but a place for us to practice. An allegory if you will of life. It helps our small minds through the allegory of physical contact see how we can recieve and exchange energy and emotions etc. We can choose to harm some one, or we can improve ourselves to the point of being good enough to redirect the flow of energy.

Some like it just because it is fun.

Others like it because it makes them feel good.

Others like it because it is spiritual.

It doesn't matter why you like it...Aikido, KI, and all that surrounds it just IS. Not good, not bad..just IS.

Sara, Thanks for the opportunity to verbalize and express my thoughts...this has been fun!

Kevin

L. Camejo
11-06-2004, 11:03 AM
What Kevin said .:)

Honestly, do you have fear? Cuz me, it's just my theory, but I think everyone has this fear ... like we're supposed to have this fear ...

As far as fear goes, I have a saying that most of my dualistic minded so-called faith-filled peeps are quick to quote but often unable to enact - "Where there is true faith there is NO fear." When I escaped the dogma of the guide book and took a look at the real, and a look at the life of Christ and other masters I realised that I was on the right track in not having fear. So many are taught to instinctively love good and dislike evil even if they don't admit it. I have found this dualistic thinking counterproductive to understanding the negative aspects of reality and evolving as a total being. There are dangers, but understanding of that danger, not fear, keeps one safe.

I am only looking to persuade, as you are me, right?

Wrong.

As far as persuasion goes, I am not trying to persuade anyone to do or believe anything because I really, honestly believe every one has his or her own personal path, and must walk it their own way. I'm merely expressing my views, I'd prefer if no one took it to heart to be honest, because I am speaking of only the way I have found, this does not mean that it will work for you.

This is also why I have zero tolerance for the folks who want to come into your house or call you out of it or meet you on the street and hit you with a Blitzkrieg and carpet bomb you with a Bible and what they believe about God and Christ. I'm sure many know the name these folks go by, trying to say they are witness to something. For me, trying to beat your views into someone else's head shows a lack of confidence in your own understanding and moreso respect, making you need to convert people to see your view in a sad hope of gaining that confidence. If what one says is true it will become evident without any prompting or planting of ideas into someone's mind.

Like Ueshiba said and Christ instructed, respect is key. If some Christians honestly had respect for other religions they would not openly go out and try to convert people who already have a belief system. Like it or not it comes down to the "what I believe is right and what you believe is wrong" mindset. Another quality product of the dualistic heaven and hell way of seeing everything, which comes from a fear based system of fearing the devil and blaming him for everything bad and praising God for everything good and not really taking any personal responsibility for much. Dualism at it's finest.:)

To me, the concept of Shu Ha Ri applies to religion as well - Follow the guide book, Interpret the guide book, Release from the guide book. The divine self is unfettered by nature as it is of the Universe itself (call it God or whoever you want), no book or human for that matter can ever adequately and fully define the path it must take to fulfillment. Some are so enamored with the guide book that they can see nothing else unless the guide book is there to control and tell them what to think. It's interesting though that the Christ that some religions emulate never had a guide book, only the Holy Spirit and a clear mind with which to interpret it. I guess people will always see what they want to see.

Ki in the manifestations I have experienced, is as undefinable, uncatalogable and uncategorisable. Like the universal mind it's manifestations go from the most basic, simple and most obvious to the totally unfathomable.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
11-06-2004, 11:16 AM
Like you say Larry, Fear is born out of dualistic thinking. Fear is the real enemy.

IMHO, if you must personify the devil, then to me he would be born simply on the concept of Fear. Fear is the tool that he uses to control us. Fear is our motivation to take measure to protect ourselves. Any action that I have ever seen taken to placate our fears has resulted in a negative result. War, greed, glutony etc.

The antidote for fear is to recognize it, accept it, and educate ourselves about what causes our fears so we can reduce it.

Qatana
11-06-2004, 11:16 AM
Sara:

"The Apocripher was not originally in the Jewish Bible, before the time of Christ. It was added after the Roman Cathoic reformation. They should have never been added in the first place because the ancient writings were never biblical texts to begin with. They were only added under Catholic influence."



As was the Entire New Testament, Sara.Written under Roman influence, written under Christian influence. So the true Bible is the Jewish Bible, and the Jews have not recognised that the Messiah has been born yet.
Personally I don't believe in any religion that says their way is the Only way.

Hiros_Angel
11-06-2004, 05:28 PM
As was the Entire New Testament, Sara.Written under Roman influence, written under Christian influence. So the true Bible is the Jewish Bible, and the Jews have not recognised that the Messiah has been born yet.

Many Jews accepted Jesus as messiah, while many did not. Judism and Christianity have always existed together. Moses was a Jew, and a Christian, looking ahead to Christ. Paul was both a Jew and a Christian who lived at a time after the cross. Today I am technically both a Jew and a Christian. Present day Jews who do not accept the Messiah who came (Jesus) are an off-shoot from the main tree trunk of Christianity/Judism that started in the garden of Eden... and continued throughout time to this day.



Personally I don't believe in any religion that says their way is the Only way.
but you respect and tolerate us, right?


<3 Sarah

Janet Rosen
11-06-2004, 06:21 PM
Many Jews accepted Jesus as messiaht
<3 Sarah
And in doing so, stopped being Jewish and became by defiition Christians. Please do not try to impose your revisionist line of thinking on Jews. Thank you.

scorpioet2
11-18-2004, 09:28 PM
Ki, Chi, Prana or whatever you wish to call it is basically that spark that makes us alive. It is neither good nor bad. It is bio-electrical energy. When you feel good, its cause you energy in your system is flowing good, on days you feel blah, the energy is just not in sync. As to your christian friend saying it comes from the devil, I would say to him that he has Ki or Chi within him right now. Otherwise he would be dead. And even IF it came from evil has he wishes to believe, even that which is bad can have useful and good purposes. To me its like denying that the sky is blue.....it still blue no matter what you believe it to be. It is....it exists...its there. Denial changes nothing and hurts only the denier.

Ron Pyle
12-07-2004, 03:40 PM
... Please do not try to impose ... on Jews. Thank you.

Please, Janet. In the humblest way I possibly can. May I ask you to spend an evening with a group of people who call themselves; "Messianic Jews"? They are experts at showing you in the Bible where it speaks of the Messiah. It will read as if it is from the New Testament. But, surprisingly, is not!
This and what I am about to talk about are things men would not comprehend. Not because they are Jews. But because they are men.
This leads to something I wish to bring forth here. That is the fact that God is the God of all men. Not just of the Jews. Yes, that is in the Bible...not just the New Testament. The Messiah said he would build his Church on.....what? ...knowledge straight from God.
Now I read things from the founder of Aikido. When he talks about self sacrificing love of man. Or from Gichin Funakoshi where he says the greatest win in Karate is to win by losing. I have to accept that these men were opening their eyes to God. How far did they go? Did, or how much did they come short? Would they, if coming face to face with Jesus, would have fallen on their faces proclaiming: "Lord!"???????? I don't know? I do know that speaking in these ways shows something. So far, in what I know about Akido philosophy. I like the "wheat" of what is spoken. The "chaf", which there seems to be plenty. I'm willing to take and know it will fall away.
I wonder if the "Ki" that is spoken of is simply our own spirit? Yes, everything does have spirit of some kind. I do know our treatment of everything depends on where our heart is at. Is our heart in seeking our own profit, our own kingdom? If so, we bear a wicked heart. No matter how much we try to make it sound nice. Serving ourselves is wicked. If our heart is in loving man even at our own expense. If our heart is in the next life....not seeking our gain in this life. Then our hearts look away from wickedness. To see the different ways people speak of 'Ki' shows me their hearts. Not to mention the showing of the heart in some people's posts on religion. Now if our heart does truly seek love of mankind. We have simply looked toward the one who is the source of true, self sacrificing, unselfish love. That one is Jesus. Do we love ourselves more than God? More than others? It will show in what we do and say.
When Sarah speaks of good and evil. She is trying to communicate with people who cannot comprehend what she would like to communicate. The Bible is full of God bowing down to man's level and simply saying: "No, this direction. Look this direction". And man keeps looking away because he loves wickedness. God has made it so simple. All one needs to do is to accept Jesus as Lord. He'll come in and change that heart. That's not to say there isn't many who will not allow their heart to change. They won't really give in. That's because they love themselves more than God. The idea of self sacrificing love is abhorrent to them.
From what I've seen so far. This whole "ki" discussion shows me men's hearts.

Bill Danosky
12-18-2004, 04:16 PM
I think to say that Ki is evil is like saying electricity or gravity is evil. It's just a natural feature of our universe. My personal belief is that it (energy) and information are possibly the only "real" things in the universe. From that perspective, Ki exists and evil does not.

This thread seems really devisive. Anytime religious dogma is brought up a lot of argument between people, all mutual believers, crops up. What part of Christianity is unifying? I'd spend more time on that part, if I were Christian.

Kevin Leavitt
12-18-2004, 04:31 PM
me too Bill!

Bill Danosky
12-18-2004, 05:47 PM
Hey, as long as we're myth-breaking, I've heard it said that electricity existed in ancient Greece- they just didn't plug into it.

Also, dinosaurs were laying eggs long before chickens came along. :)