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Ari Bolden
09-10-2003, 04:26 PM
I'd Like to hear from those who have come across this "problem" at their dojos.

A "student" walks into your dojo and says "hello, I'd like to train with you. I have my gi with me as well."

Instructor: "Have you done aikido before?"

"Student": "Yes I have. In fact, I hold my shodan in Ki Aikdio."

Instructor: " I see. Do you know this is an Aikikai dojo?"

Student: " I do. I actually trained in aikikai for a few years. I hold my 3rd kyu in aikikai."

Instructor: "Great.....Come on the mat and welcome."

Problem: Does that student train on the mat, at that dojo, as a 3rd kyu or at a shodan level? Two different styles, yet both aikido.

Of course the student has put in many hours of dedication to ki aikido (to get his/her shodan). Does that count for something?

I recall on of my sensei's saying " Aikido is AIKIDO. Different families. Same vision. I don't care what style you practice or what Uchi deshi you trained under. Every student recieves their aikido and it changes little by little. The students of O Sensei, when they began to teach, taught as themselves."

To me aikido, regardless of style, is a wonderful thing. It disturbs me when I encounter people and they say " I do "CAPITAL LETTERS" style of (lower case letters) aikido!"

I understand the differences between the schools/styles. I don't care what style you do. You are always welcome in my dojo.

Warm regards,
Ari Bolden

Hanna B
09-10-2003, 05:04 PM
It is up to the instructor. Personally, I would never suggest anything else than the person wearing his black belt and participate in the advanced group, if there is a such.

W^2
09-10-2003, 05:51 PM
Any visitor should be treated with the utmost respect first and foremost - it's a reflection upon the quality of character prevalent, and instruction given at a Dojo.

Having said that, it's a matter of comfort for the visiting Aikidoka.

Ciao,

Ward

Amassus
09-10-2003, 06:01 PM
You are a shodan in Aikido? Great then you will be treated as such on our mat. :)

Our dojo recognises any black belt from any school of aikido.

I think this rule contributes to the welcoming attitude that most Aikido dojos have.

"Of course the student has put in many hours of dedication to ki aikido (to get his/her shodan). Does that count for something?"

Most certainly. I admire and respect anyone who can stick it in there to gain their shodan ranking.

Power to Aikido!

:D

Larry Feldman
09-10-2003, 06:11 PM
I think there are 2 questions here. Are they coming in to practice for the night or a short period of time? Or are they joining the dojo as a regular.

Not saying my answer is any different.

I let them wear what they earned. If they want to test in our style, their stuff should look like ours.

Adrian Smith
09-10-2003, 06:54 PM
We're always told that when we visit other dojos we should train as they train, meaning that if they're yoshinkan we should be ready to train in yoshinkan even if we usually train in aikikai. I think that while both 'sides' (the regular attendees and the visitor) should be equally polite the visitor's responsibility is to train as the sensei of the dojo expects.

-drin

Ari Bolden
09-10-2003, 06:58 PM
Great...I am seeing a pattern here. Now, does it change if the student is a jiu jitsu or judoka?

cheers

Ari

Largo
09-10-2003, 07:06 PM
So long as both sides are mature, and expecting things to be different, I wouldn't figure that there would be any problems. Those are however two really big "if"s

PeterR
09-10-2003, 08:13 PM
Truth be told it mattered much more when I first got the BB. I still subtly let it be known that I have yudansha rank (last visit was dropping the BB to the floor as I put on the white belt) but what I wear has no meaning.

Mudansha in Aikikai dojos don't generally wear hakama and I hate hakamas. Under these circumstances I would stand out too much if all I wore was the black belt. Of course if requested I will wear the hakama - last visit I did not bring the latter.

Most senior instructors know pretty quick who and what you are - and a piece of cloth has very little to do with it. The subtle hints mentioned above are for the 5th kyu shihans. My last visit I had one, albeit yudansha, trying to teach me how to do a proper backwards breakfall - from the Shodokan perspective in a seriously flawed way. I of course adapted for the evening.

If you have yudansha rank in a recognized Aikido style you will be asked to wear your colors when training with my group, however as for Judo/Jujutsu people in an Aikido dojo my concern would be for my own students. They might assume the visitor knows more than they do in an Aikido context.

Bronson
09-10-2003, 10:04 PM
I let them wear what they earned. If they want to test in our style, their stuff should look like ours.
That's how we work it also.
Now, does it change if the student is a jiu jitsu or judoka?

Yup, we recognize ranks from other styles of aikido. Judo and jiu jitsu, while similar, are different arts. If they wished to test in our style they may move up the ranks very quickly because of their previous knowledge but they would start at rokkyu like other beginning aikido students.

Bronson

Bronson
09-10-2003, 10:51 PM
If you have yudansha rank in a recognized Aikido style...

What about mudansha rank? We had someone show up last night with nikyu from an independant dojo. He just moved here and was wondering if his rank would transfer. I told him I'd check with sensei and let him know next week.

Bronson

p.s. I should clarify that in my previous post I should have said I know we recognize yudansha ranking from other styles, I'm not sure about mudansha.

PeterR
09-11-2003, 12:27 AM
What about mudansha rank? We had someone show up last night with nikyu from an independant dojo. He just moved here and was wondering if his rank would transfer. I told him I'd check with sensei and let him know next week.

Bronson

p.s. I should clarify that in my previous post I should have said I know we recognize yudansha ranking from other styles, I'm not sure about mudansha.
This one is quite easy - no. Curriculum differs just too much and at mudansha level it really is just about doing the curriculum.

If he is good - give him a fast track grading such as letting him do two grading where he would normally do one.

sanosuke
09-11-2003, 12:52 AM
that depends, if he wants to train as a 3rd kyu then train as a 3rd kyu, if he prefer to train as a shodan then train as a shodan. basically all are welcome to train regardless their styles and rank except you want to switch styles.

batemanb
09-11-2003, 02:01 AM
Anyone coming to our dojo is welcome to wear any previous Aikido grade they may have earned, regardless of the style that they earned it in.

Ironically, when I moved to Japan, the Aikikai wouldn't recognize my grades because the English association was not affiliated to them. When joining, I dropped all grades and continued as a beginner (as one always is, but you know what I mean). As Peter said, your experience soon becomes obvious, I had a very understanding Sensei, I still had to practice the recommended number of sessions before takig a grading, but I was jumped up a fair few levels at the first one.

Regards

Bryan

Hanna B
09-11-2003, 02:19 AM
Great...I am seeing a pattern here. Now, does it change if the student is a jiu jitsu or judoka?
I have once been asked to wear my black belt when practising an unrelated art! "We respect your rank, this is how we do it here". Well... I had difficulties in taking it. I felt like I should live up to my rank, which in another art with another pattern of movement... of course was impossible. I swapped back to a white belt. Nobody complained about it, and I was relieved; I felt like a beginner and wanted to be treated like one.

adriangan
09-11-2003, 03:47 AM
it shouldn't matter right? a yudansha should be treated the same regardless whatever aikido style he/she practices. that's why we have the certificate and the yudansha card right?

happysod
09-11-2003, 03:52 AM
Ari, I'm afraid I'm guilty these days of mentioning style when in a dojo outside my association. However, this is because of a couple of unpleasant dojo experiences I've had where the fact that I was from a different style was used an an excuse to demostrate that dojo's obviously more advanced and true aikido. So, these days if the dojo is a different style I mention my own lack of knowledge of their style and join with them as a white belt beginner, just one with more advance ukemi.

With regard to jujitsu and judo grades, the general rule seems to be start them at the beginning, but fast-track them as quickly as possible. The caveat to this is they must show that they have learned (and can teach) the intermediate grades they jump. Black belts from other aikido associations will be treated at their grade and probably interrogated on their technique so we can steal the good bits :)

Yann Golanski
09-11-2003, 04:29 AM
When I go to a course, seminar or to another dojo that is not affiliated with an organisation I hold rank in, I wear a white belt. I don't even say what my grade in other things is, just that I ``did some of that before for a little while''. Which is true, I've only trained for 6/7 years. Nothing.

Of course, it is quickly obvious to anyone that I am a bit better than I appear. In the same way that I have seen visitors to our dojo claim to know little of Aikido and find out that they are yudansha in Ju-jitsu or judo or karate!

The same goes for etiquette. I use the most formal and polite forms to start of with and if that's too much then someone will tell me (or it becomes obvious) and I'll revert to something less formal.

For example, My first sensei would insiste that she was called Tish and not sensei. Called her sensei resulted in a telling off. When I train with Jon, I call him sensei because that's what he wants to be called. Some clubs allow talking and others look down upon it. And so on, and so on...

Check the waters and do nothing to insult the others on the mat.

aikidoc
09-11-2003, 09:32 AM
Our dojo policy is to accept the rank, no matter the style. Yudansha wear their colors. Mudansha are held at the level if they want to train and advance with us until they get their skill level to our standards. That depends on the individual and the quality of their training and closeness of style. I've had visitors that trained with us for the summer while on college break from several styles. Their skill level becomes apparent on the mat. I've had one yudansha who had a different style and he was a nidan who could not do a backward roll! He did not hang around long as his style was just too different from aikikai.

One thing I do on everyone coming in with out side rank is verify it-had some problems with non-verifiable ranks in the past. Dishonesty does not start the relationship off well-I let them know I will verify their rank.

Ari Bolden
09-11-2003, 10:32 AM
Hello all...

Great reading your answers!

I'd like to point out a few things to consider.

Not everyone has their certificates/ or cards on them while travelling (my aikido stuff hangs on my wall at home).

Some aikidoka don't have affiliations behind them (Ronin) like the USAF or Hombu.

I, in fact am guilty of this for my daito background (I studied with my sensei, who was not affliated with any organization for 3 years, 10 hours a week). My certificate consisted of a great tea ceramony and dinner with him and other students (a wonderful experience I might add).

My aikido background got me to 'fast track' because many of the techniques were familiar.

There are important uses for these organizations (don't get me wrong, I support them). But sometimes learning can come from individuals without a formal home or affiliation.

Cheers!

Ari

bob_stra
09-11-2003, 11:27 AM
Here's a radical idea from the world of MMA -

No belts. Just train.

I've met some *asshole* black belts in aikido and other arts. I've met some *fantastic* black belts in aikido and other belts.

I will not treat you with any more or less respect than anyone else simply because you have black cloth around your gut. The way you behave and what you show *will* garner my respect.

As for transference of grades ... dunno. Perhaps an equivilancy test of some sort? Ikkyo is ikkyo is ikkyo?

Other than that - why do you need to trasfer your grade? If you want to be an instructor is style X, and you have a black belt in style Y, wouldn't it be better to learn X, (albeit quicker than most)?

Finally, on the topic of wearing black belts from other arts - huh? If the dojo treats all visitors with respect, then why do you need the special marker?

Just shooting the breeze. Go abt your normal business ;-)

Bronson
09-11-2003, 11:34 AM
I've met some *asshole* black belts in aikido and other arts.
We've met? :p

Bronson

bob_stra
09-11-2003, 11:44 AM
My last visit I had one, albeit yudansha, trying to teach me how to do a proper backwards breakfall - from the Shodokan perspective in a seriously flawed way. I of course adapted for the evening.
In my younger and more foolish days (ie: yesterday ;-) I almost tried to correct the ukemi of a visitor to our judo club. He was slapping out on his forward rolls. Having never seen that, I decided he *must* be doing it wrong, because *I* never slap out...

Anyway, the guy was the national Iranian judo champ. And not a friendly man IIRC. I thank providence for keeping my mouth shut that day ;-)

Peter what was this seriously flawed way you mentioned? Can you describe it - your perspective and the flaw? Ukemi is one of my more favourite part of aikido, so am always keen to learn more about it.

Cheers

bob_stra
09-11-2003, 11:49 AM
We've met? :p

Bronson
Couldn't have. Assholes don't know they're assholes.

It's a whole quantum mechanics thing.

;p

All kidding aside, aikido seems to be disproportionate in its collection of assholes. I'm not sure why (like everyone else, I have some pet theories), but I gotta say, it's one of the things that keeps people *out* of aikido.

Ari Bolden
09-11-2003, 12:00 PM
I was going to comment of the "All kidding aside, aikido seems to be disproportionate in its collection of assholes" comment.

I figure why bother. No more or less than any other style.

Surround yourself with good people.

Cheers!

Ari

Bronson
09-11-2003, 12:29 PM
Couldn't have. Assholes don't know they're assholes.
Isn't one of the differences between a psychopath and a sociopath that the psychopath doesn't understand what he's doing is wrong and the sociopath understands but just doesn't care? Maybe I'm a socioasshole?
:confused:

All kidding aside, aikido seems to be disproportionate in its collection of assholes.


Maybe it's not aikido...maybe it's Australia ;) (see above)

I've been really lucky in that most of the people I've met in aikido have been great. I've met a lot worse assholes in the medieval fighting community.

Bronson

PeterR
09-11-2003, 02:30 PM
Peter what was this seriously flawed way you mentioned? Can you describe it - your perspective and the flaw? Ukemi is one of my more favourite part of aikido, so am always keen to learn more about it.
Hi Bob;

Shodokan atemi waza usually result in uke being projected backward at speed. Our ushiro ukemi match that landing pretty much on our backs with no roll. The role in itself is dangerous for the neck but even worse uke is vulnerable to tori following and inflicting even more damage (if he was so inclined). But really the role is not what bothered me but the exagerated tucking in of the leg prior to the roll. I feel that it puts undue pressure on to the knee. The whole exercise seemed to rely on tori being nice and gentle. Doing the waza and stopping. Things of course seldom work out that way.

That might sournd all wise and lofty but the truth is, after training with some Aikikai groups in Canada, I returned to Japan and during randori tucked my leg in for an ukemi. Nariyama Shihan freaked - I think he was seriously worried about injury.

bob_stra
09-11-2003, 04:23 PM
Hi Bob

>Shodokan atemi waza usually result in uke >being projected backward at speed. Our >ushiro ukemi match that landing pretty much >on our backs with no roll.

Back breakfall, ala judo?

> But really the role is not what bothered me > but the exagerated tucking in of the leg

> prior to the roll.

Wow. Ok. I've seen some clips of Waite style ukemi and have been doing the above ever since. ;-(

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/_XOOM/marcvanriet/martialarts/Yamada%20(waite%202%20irimi).avi

That the kind a thing you were talking about?

bob_stra
09-11-2003, 04:27 PM
Isn't one

I've been really lucky in that most of the people I've met in aikido have been great. I've met a lot worse assholes in the medieval fighting community.

Bronson
The Diffin-Strahinjevich theorem

Assholeness is proportional to the degree of actual fighting

:-)

BTW: I like the medieval stuff too! Spooky. I've been downloading some of the old sword manuals (eg: Cold Steel). It's all good - y makes you appreciate the european martial arts traditions.

bob_stra
09-11-2003, 04:30 PM
I was going to comment of the "All kidding aside, aikido seems to be disproportionate in its collection of assholes" comment.

I figure why bother. No more or less than any other style.

Surround yourself with good people.

Cheers!

Ari
Aikido has the granola crowd like no one else ;-)

Besides which, sometimes you can't pick with who or where you train.

*shrugs*

'Tis what it is. Train the best you can with what you can find.

PeterR
09-11-2003, 08:42 PM
Back breakfall, ala judo?
Yes
That the kind a thing you were talking about?
Yes although in the dojo I was talking about it seemed even more extreme.

L. Camejo
09-11-2003, 10:11 PM
Hey folks,

I can relate to the backward breakfall thing that Peter was talking about.

Had and interesting experience with an instructor who told his students that "we don't breakfall like ninja" (after seeing me do some breakfalls and his students started to follow) with one leg folding under the other to stand up out of ushiro ukemi without using hands.

It's the way I was taught and have taught my students, and it makes perfect sense to me, so I tried his way, but found my own more comfortable, but even more so, much more practical for me. Don't know where he got the ninja idea though :p.

Interestingly enough, I've trained in both Yoshinkan and Ki Society who both told me to wear a white belt when practicing their style (no biggie for me, the belt only covers 2 inches of yer butt anyway :), the rest you have to back up with skill :)). Funny enough though, an Aikikai group I usually train with had no problem with me wearing black or anything else for the matter. Of course I do stand out with no hakama :p. But I honestly expected them to be the style Nazis, not the other way round.

Back to topic, I have had visiting instructors in my dojo, I've let an Aikikai shodan teach a few classes in my absence (after checking him out of course). Have had a 4th Dan in TKD wear his black belt in class, and another of his compatriates wore white, as he was planning on grading within our style.

I guess to me it does not matter what colour belt you wear, but who you are as a person and what you can do, which I prefer find out in training, not by judging the colour alone.

If one plans to grade in our system though, I request they wear a white belt at the beginning. There is no guarantee of accelerated grading, since I've yet to see another stylist come to our dojo and not "catch hell" to keep up. :p The tanto randorigeiko always gets em :). Though I must admit, I am very impressed by the ukemi skills of most other style Aikido visitors I've had :).

Just my thoughts.

L.C.:ai::ki:

PeterR
09-11-2003, 10:34 PM
Back to topic, I have had visiting instructors in my dojo, I've let an Aikikai shodan teach a few classes in my absence (after checking him out of course). Have had a 4th Dan in TKD wear his black belt in class, and another of his compatriates wore white, as he was planning on grading within our style.
That reminds me about my past and its not so cut and dry. There is a difference between someone taking a class and you inviting somone to join in or actually teach.

I've specifically invited ranking TKD, Karate, and Judo people to the dojo - I treated them as an honoured guest because basically I wasn't trolling for students. I specifically asked that they wear the blackbelt and that worked out fine because in each and every case they contributed something to the class. If by chance they were so smitten by my awsome abilities (hey it could happen) that they decided to pack in their chosen art and dedicate their life, money and first born to my well-being - then they would revert to white belt.

I have never met a Dan graded Aikidoist of any style that I would ask that they not wear it.

Bronson
09-12-2003, 12:59 AM
BTW: I like the medieval stuff too! Spooky. I've been downloading some of the old sword manuals (eg: Cold Steel). It's all good - y makes you appreciate the european martial arts traditions.
The old manuals are fun to try to read sometimes. Assuming you can get past the Olde English. Right now on my bookshelf I have copies of: DiGrassi, His True Arte of Defence circa 1594 (1 old english, 1 American english); Vincentio circa 1595; and Swetnam's School of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence circa 1617. To be honest I usually end up losing interest before I get used to the Olde English but occasionally I can keep my attention focused long enough to read a fair bit...though it's been a while since I've tried.

Bronson (bow before my seething assholiness :p)

bob_stra
09-12-2003, 02:12 AM
"Bronson Diffin (Bronson)"

>The old manuals are fun to try to read >sometimes.

More than that - they are *useful*.

The Art of the Long Sword is fan-bloody tastic for aikido style footwork. There's a whole raft of good PDF sword manuals here -

http://tinyurl.com/n3j9

> Assuming you can get past the Olde English.

Ye Olde German is even worse. And lets not even mention Ye Olde Frech. I think they only had one gimp scribe who did all the writing in those days. The font is desgined to induce eye bleeding.

> Bronson (bow before my seething assholiness

Well, as long as I don't have to kiss nuthin, we're good ;p

bob_stra
09-12-2003, 02:16 AM
I've specifically invited ranking TKD, Karate, and Judo people to the dojo ...

I specifically asked that they wear the blackbelt and that worked out fine because in each and every case they contributed something to the class.
Isn't that kinda dangerous tho? Someone might mistake the TKD blackbelt for an Aikido blackbelt and decide to *really* throw them?

I'll grant you it's a remote possibility.

I'm still spun out over the "no knee" back ukemi. I was feeling as pleased as punch that I'd finally "got it" - now it seems I got nuthin' ;(

Has anyone *actually* been able to use the Waite style ukem (see my previous link for video) against *agressive* throws?

PeterR
09-12-2003, 02:49 AM
Isn't that kinda dangerous tho? Someone might mistake the TKD blackbelt for an Aikido blackbelt and decide to *really* throw them?
Well we're not exactly dealing with a cast of thousands. I've only ever had small groups and then most were beginners. I wasn't worried about the guests.
I'm still spun out over the "no knee" back ukemi. I was feeling as pleased as punch that I'd finally "got it" - now it seems I got nuthin' ;(
Well you definately have something - you don't feel nearly as clumsy as I do when I go visiting. Can't do a rolling back breakfall to save my life.
Has anyone *actually* been able to use the Waite style ukem (see my previous link for video) against *agressive* throws?
I actually don't see why not - the problem is not going down but getting back up either because of a damaged knee or the fact that your aggressor is on top of you.

Ron Tisdale
09-12-2003, 08:23 AM
Has anyone *actually* been able to use the Waite style ukem (see my previous link for video) against *agressive* throws?
I was at a seminar with Waite Sensei, and quite a few of the students there were able to use his ukemi when Waite Sensei was throwing them. Is that aggresive enough? :)

Ron (he can throw like a ton of bricks when he wants to) Tisdale

Kent Enfield
09-12-2003, 03:22 PM
The old manuals are fun to try to read sometimes. Assuming you can get past the Olde English. Right now on my bookshelf I have copies of: DiGrassi, His True Arte of Defence circa 1594 (1 old english, 1 American english); Vincentio circa 1595; and Swetnam's School of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence circa 1617. To be honest I usually end up losing interest before I get used to the Olde English but occasionally I can keep my attention focused long enough to read a fair bit...though it's been a while since I've tried.Completely off-topic, but those arn't in Old English. Those tracts are in early Modern English. Old English (Anglo-Saxon) is pretty much unintelligible to speakers of Modern English.

Compare the first line of the Lord's Prayer:

Old English (11th century):

Fĉder ure ŝu ŝe eart on heofonum, Si ŝin nama gehalgod

Middle English (c 1400):

Oure fader that art in heuenis halowid be thi name

Modern English (1559)

Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Bronson
09-13-2003, 12:41 AM
I stand corrected...but they're still hard to read (maybe it's just the font :confused: )

Bronson

Qatana
09-13-2003, 10:17 AM
OT on language...

Ok pardon me but i think there is a difference between the terms "Old English" and "Olde English" even if Bronson inadvertantly referred to one as the other...

"Old" English is as Kent illustrates, gradually evolving from Anglo-Saxon to modern language.

"Olde" English, to the majority of people in the States is actually Elizabethan ( or you caould say Shakespearean) English, which actually became standardized with the publication of the King James Bible.

Those of us who work Renaissance Faire have been extensively indoctrinated in the use of "Elizabethan as a Second Language" (otherwise known as BFA-Basic Faire Accent), tho my character, being foriegn,, has managed to butcher it very well with a Russian accent...

so anyway, with the spelling he used, i think Bronson had it right the first time...

gramercy & anon...