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Amassus
08-31-2003, 11:59 PM
We talk of spirituality in aikido, this made me think about the emphasis of spirituality in the dojo and how it applies to aikidoka who already have a strong religious background.

In fact, it was because of a strong religious background that one of the people at my club had a constant argument with her husband just to attend the sessions.

How much is spirituality emphasised at your club and have you had a similar clash of ideas as I mentioned above?

Just interested...



:ai: :) :ki: :) :do:

justinm
09-01-2003, 11:27 AM
At the club, none whatsoever. As for each individual student, mostly I have no idea. I think some people would say they are christians, some buddhist, some atheist, some have other views and believes. It has never been an issue in the dojo & never discussed on the mat. Not specifically excluded - just never come up as it is not seen as relevent to our training as a group.

In a previous dojo I did come across this as an issue personally, where we were studying ki aikido and my brother & wife considered the concepts we were talking about as against the teachings of Christ. We never managed to resolve this between us but it is not a major problem. Occassionally they comment that I am "learning how to fight" and I just reply "you mean learning how to not fight".

Justin

twilliams423
09-01-2003, 11:31 AM
I think if one understands the difference between spirituality and religion the potential for conflict disappears.

The spiritual aspect of Aikido is very important in our dojo but is rarely emphasized as it is inherent in our daily training.

In my understanding, one cannot separate any particular moment or activity as spiritual or not.

Steven
09-01-2003, 12:18 PM
In my dojo, I have christians, non-christians and some who don't practice any religion at all. We all practice in complete harmony with one another. I've had at least two students say to me they joined my dojo because I was a Christian. That's cool! But we keep such conversations "OUTSIDE" the dojo as to not exclude anyone from our training time.

This is true for my home dojo as well. I think this is possible because those of us who practice Aikido in the Yoshinkan, do so with the understanding that Yoshinkan is not a religion. It is a the unification of the mind and body through our repetitive way of training.

In my school, when we speak of one's spirit, we speak not of some mystical being we can't see or touch, but rather all those things that make us who we are as individuals. To make your spirit strong is to bring your mind and body together as one.

So for those who train at my dojo, it is not a problem. In my opinion, you alienate a large number of people when you start talking about religious and spiritual things that fall into conflict with many other religions and peoples beliefs. And if you create that conflict, then your not doing a real good job of teaching Aikido. (IMHO anyway)

Well, that's my nickles worth anyway. No offense intended ....

Peace ...

PhilJ
09-01-2003, 10:25 PM
I agree with Tom -- in fact, I often teach that spirituality (or what I know of it) will help you and your faith in whichever religion you practice.

But then again, I don't know much of anything...

*Phil

SeiserL
09-01-2003, 11:24 PM
We do not much talk about spirituality. In fact, we don't talk about or discuss much of anything. We practice the physical techniques which demonstrate and illustrate the underlying principles. With physical practice we hope to change our minds so it can apply the same principles to life and being open to spirituality. But we don't talk about it, it just is.

Aristeia
09-02-2003, 05:09 AM
We do not much talk about spirituality. In fact, we don't talk about or discuss much of anything. We practice the physical techniques which demonstrate and illustrate the underlying principles. With physical practice we hope to change our minds so it can apply the same principles to life and being open to spirituality. But we don't talk about it, it just is.
There! Right there! That's exactly what I was *trying* to say on the "influences" thread. Thanks Lynn, as always you've nailed it.

shihonage
09-02-2003, 06:06 AM
As the blade comes
Ignore the darkness
And like wind,
You're already sliced into two pieces
You slow fuck.



O Sensei once wrote this, but then erased it when he got sober.

Vic Robinson
09-02-2003, 01:03 PM
Several points: Aleksey, I don't appreciate the language used in your last post. It is not appropriate for this forum. O'Sensei may have understood that as well, hence he erased it, as you say.

When we speak of "spirituality", we need to distinguish between it and religion. Spirituality is an entity of and unto itself, although all religions have a degree of spirituality to them. The concepts of spirituality in Aikido have nothing to do with religion. We had a student in our dojo who refused to bow in before class or bow out after class because he said he could not bow down to a graven image. I tried to explain that the bowing is just a show of respect, and has nothing to do with worship, but he wouldn't buy it.

As to the spiritual aspects of Aikido, I tell my students that in class we only have time for the physical aspects of learning Aikido, but that in the practice of shugyo and in study outside of class they will gain a deeper meaning of Aikido allowing it to help them in their everyday lives.

Bronson
09-02-2003, 01:13 PM
Just in case anybody is counting. I DID appreciate Aleksey's post and found it quite funny.

That's one for and one against.

Lighten up and appreciate it for the joke it was.

Bronson

opherdonchin
09-02-2003, 02:59 PM
I find Aleksey more and more funny with increasing exposure, although I think that he would do well to remember that that kind of language can be offensive to many people.

I'm just waiting for Aleksey to have a spriritual awakening that he shares with all of us here at the forum where he explains how he has suddenly seen the light. Suddenly, this spiritual side of Aikido has been revealed to him in all of its glory and he will henceforth stop actually practicing Aikido so he can devote full time to preaching about its spiritual relevance.

PeterR
09-02-2003, 07:31 PM
Suddenly, this spiritual side of Aikido has been revealed to him in all of its glory and he will henceforth stop actually practicing Aikido so he can devote full time to preaching about its spiritual relevance.
:p Brilliant

jk
09-02-2003, 09:48 PM
The last time Aleksey had a spiritual awakening, didn't he get his ass kicked by some snowmen?

Erik
09-02-2003, 10:37 PM
I find Aleksey more and more funny with increasing exposure, although I think that he would do well to remember that that kind of language can be offensive to many people.
They'll get over it. Besides, sometimes that's the whole point.
I'm just waiting for Aleksey to have a spriritual awakening that he shares with all of us here at the forum where he explains how he has suddenly seen the light. Suddenly, this spiritual side of Aikido has been revealed to him in all of its glory and he will henceforth stop actually practicing Aikido so he can devote full time to preaching about its spiritual relevance.
It will never happen. He's a godless Communist. I could, however, see Marxist thought in all it's glory.

Pretoriano
09-02-2003, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE="Aleksey Sundeyev (shihonage)"][b]As the blade comes

Ignore the darkness

And like wind,

You're already sliced into two pieces

You slow fuck.

O Sensei once wrote this, but then erased it when he got sober.

----------------------------------------------

Crazy Taisho men! thats true, interesante.

What you have to tell your students frequently

is that Religions doesnt have to oppose themselves, that conflict caused by Religious Beliefs is not going along with the Truth, that a Human soul suffering because religious struggle is a nonsense, that Spiritual limitations are only found in our narrow minds not in Universe, that Shinto will make you to "understand better Aikido not to "perform better a one, that Spirituality is a natural human Posibility and proper concience for to understand it will arise at proper time and none ever any imitation or artifise of any kind will never remplase it never.

Praetorian

"The funniest line in English is ''Get it?'' When you say that, everyone chortles."



Garrison Keillor

pointy
09-03-2003, 01:32 AM
ive heard, 2nd hand, something related that Yamada sensei said. he said (im paraphrasing, obviously) that if you do aikido's physical techniques properly, the ki aspects will already be there.

meaning, you dont have to specifically try to do the techniques with ki. do em right and you'll already be there with it.

i think this business about spirituality in aikido is the same. just do the techniques. not much other discussion is necessary (even though it's awfully fun). any reasonably intelligent person will be able to extract the occasional life lesson from their training in the dojo.

not that there is anything wrong with letting students like me know they are there to be extracted :)

maybe i got lucky and was matched with a good teacher at my first dojo (actually he is a really good teacher)- the first day when i learned tenkan, it seemed to include a pretty obvious philosophical implication. "ok now we're looking ACROSS each other, (tenkan), and now we're looking in the same direction. SEE?" ohhhhhh i get it!

mike lee
09-03-2003, 03:21 AM
As the blade comes

Ignore the darkness

And like wind,

You're already sliced into two pieces

You slow fuck.

O'Sensei never could have wrote this because he new that the essence of martial arts is respect — and unlike Aleksey, I don't think he wasted his time standing around in the dark.

Arieru
09-03-2003, 12:22 PM
at the dojo where i train, only one instructor places emphasis on how the lessons of aikido can be used in daily life. it doesnt take the form of spirituality per se. we joke amongst ourselves that our dojo is non-demoninational.

opherdonchin
09-03-2003, 10:45 PM
the first day when i learned tenkan, it seemed to include a pretty obvious philosophical implication. "ok now we're looking ACROSS each other, (tenkan), and now we're looking in the same direction. SEE?"I would certainly count this explanation of tenkan as 'hooking into the spiritual side of Aikido.' I would say that teachers who use this sort of language regularly are conveying a spiritual message. Does anyone have teachers who regularly go beyond this and talk directly about "the great spirit energy" and the importance of studying Aikido because it "brings the whole world into harmony"? I've never run into this personally, although I would claim that most of my teachers (especially before I got to ASU) made a point of emphasizing the spiritual side of Aikido.

pointy
09-04-2003, 12:14 AM
I would certainly count this explanation of tenkan as 'hooking into the spiritual side of Aikido.'
sorry, i wrote that a little strangely i guess. he didnt actually say any of those things. in fact he didnt say anything not related to the physical movement at all. the quotes were sort of what went on in my head while first learning tenkan. yeah, it was late when i wrote that duh :freaky:

in a way it's kind of funny - the teacher i was referring to says that he thinks this whole ki thing is a bunch of bull. he loves the techniques and all the other good stuff, but his opinion is that aikido is all just brilliant mechanics. the philosophy is there to take if the practicioner should want it.

mike lee
09-04-2003, 01:57 AM
in a way it's kind of funny - the teacher i was referring to says that he thinks this whole ki thing is a bunch of bull. he loves the techniques and all the other good stuff, but his opinion is that aikido is all just brilliant mechanics.
Mechanics don't work without energy — that's where ki comes in. If a teacher can't explain ki, then he's not worthy of teaching aiKIdo.

PeterR
09-04-2003, 02:14 AM
I have never met anyone who can explain Ki - a good number of those I would consider worthy Aikido teachers.

Perhaps you could explain it to us.

mike lee
09-04-2003, 09:22 AM
I just did.

Bronson
09-04-2003, 09:58 AM
I just did.
Hey thanks! It makes so much more sense now :rolleyes:

Bronson

opherdonchin
09-04-2003, 10:27 AM
If a teacher can't explain ki, then he's not worthy of teaching aiKIdo.Hmmm ... lots of excellent teachers believe in teaching silently, or nearly so. They don't explain anything. They just demonstrate techniques, and their students learn by watching. This builds up an amazing awareness and sensitivity. (Other excellent teachers teach using other approaches, and some talk all the time, of course.) Is it "can't" or "won't" or "doesn't" that you mean? Also, how do you judge an explanation of ki?

The point I was trying to get at earlier, though, is that ideas about 'ki,' ideas about 'ai' (like in the tenkan example, or teachers who emphasize the effectiveness of soft technique) and ideas about spirituality and the great oneness of the universe tend to get mixed up in our discussions.

While all of these connect to the 'spiritual side of Aikido,' I'm not sure that they are all exactly the same thing. I can easily call to mind teachers who emphasize one of them more than the others. However, I can't really call to mind any who emphasize the third, 'spiritual' aspect.

Neil Mick
09-05-2003, 02:11 PM
We talk of spirituality in aikido, this made me think about the emphasis of spirituality in the dojo and how it applies to aikidoka who already have a strong religious background.

In fact, it was because of a strong religious background that one of the people at my club had a constant argument with her husband just to attend the sessions.

How much is spirituality emphasised at your club and have you had a similar clash of ideas as I mentioned above?
But, to return to the original question:

In my dojo, great emphasis is placed upon the spiritual aspects. Occasional classes are offered in chanting (the seven sacred sounds, etc), and 1/2 the Summer Intensive was dedicated to meditation and chanting.

When he was here last, I asked Anno Sensei about any connection between Omotokyo (the religion that O Sensei practiced) and Aikido today. He simply said: "None." Except, he added, for the chants he uses, as part of his daily practice.

There are no clashes between the spiritual practices and religious beliefs at my dojo, AFAIK.

mike lee
09-06-2003, 01:30 AM
Also, how do you judge an explanation of ki?
the teacher i was referring to says that he thinks this whole ki thing is a bunch of bull.

mike lee
09-06-2003, 01:38 AM
Hey thanks! It makes so much more sense now

It's all in the thread entitled "ki and scientific thought."

Although the word "thought" in this case is a contradiction in terms.

But excuse me — you guys are looking for deep, dark mysteries that will make you unbeatable warriors. (Only the Japanese can know and understand those things.)

Nobody's interested in the plain old simple truth these days.

Bronson
09-07-2003, 12:30 AM
But excuse me — you guys are looking for deep, dark mysteries that will make you unbeatable warriors. (Only the Japanese can know and understand those things.)

Nobody's interested in the plain old simple truth these days.
Wow! You sure have me pegged. It's amazing how you know exactly what we are all looking for without ever having met or trained with us....really impressive :rolleyes:

Bronson

tedehara
09-07-2003, 03:00 PM
...(Only the Japanese can know and understand those things.)

Nobody's interested in the plain old simple truth these days.Like a fish who has no understanding of water, most Japanese don't know what's in their culture.

Sometimes the simplest truths are the hardest ones to realize.

I know some Ki Society members have found Aikido compliments their religion, rather than conflicts with it. This might depends more on the "style" of Christianity and Aikido you practice.

It sounds like the husband has control issues and is just using Christianity as a behavioral model.

Kevin Leavitt
10-04-2003, 06:50 PM
I think that Ki just IS. You can't explain it.

Many of us know how to drive a car. But few of us can expertly explain how to get the metal from the earth to build it, drill and refine the gas that fuels it...but most of us know how to us the KI that is present in it and drive it down the road. And THAT we can teach to others!

It's not important to be able to explain KI, just important to know how to use it and THAT is why we have teachers to teach us!

RoninKivjoru
10-20-2003, 01:22 AM
Ki was never explained to me. But they showed me how I could feel it and understand it myself. I think that words tend to fail anyway. Especially since many people experience Ki in many different ways. If you explain how you discovered it, they may be watching for the wrong things.

RoninKivjoru
10-20-2003, 01:30 AM
I know some Ki Society members have found Aikido compliments their religion, rather than conflicts with it. This might depends more on the "style" of Christianity and Aikido you practice.
I agree with Ted. I am a Christian, and I've found that there's no conflict either in my mind, or the minds of the pastors I've talked to about it. I'd say if a Christian was hung up about it not being a "Godly" power, likening it to their understanding of The Holy Spirit, is helpful. I honestly believe it's a labelling issue, that's it. God gave us this energy, but most mainstream churches have downplayed it because it sounds to much like "witchcraft." Aikido got me back in touch with a part of me that western culture had, unfortunately failed to teach me about.

Suzanne Cooper
10-20-2003, 03:03 AM
I hope I'm not reading, in places throughout this thread, that Christianity is being blamed for being out-of-touch with what is really real, or possible, or present, in and with the human soul?

Jesus said that if we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we could say to a mountain 'throw yourself into the sea' and it would do it.

The unbendable arm, as an exercise, doesn't have a Christian equivalent since the mountain-into-the-sea thing can't be 'done' just to test God (expressly forbidden, that is), but the human part of the action is present in both--faith, ki, it has other names too.

I feel completely certain that once I've trained and learned, I will be able to toss an attacker around a bit and say, 'jump in a lake, mate' and it will happen.

Depending on how much ki I can put with my mustard seed, of course! :)

Alan Lomax
10-20-2003, 03:14 AM
We do not much talk about spirituality. In fact, we don't talk about or discuss much of anything. We practice the physical techniques which demonstrate and illustrate the underlying principles. With physical practice we hope to change our minds so it can apply the same principles to life and being open to spirituality. But we don't talk about it, it just is.
Lynn,

Isn’t it quite interesting that spirituality is very seldom even discussed by Phong Sensei, especially when his spirituality is so profound? From my perspective no person I have ever met teaches more by example in his personality, character and actions.

I will be returning to San Diego in late December and I am looking forward to make the trip to come back to the Dojo.

Best regards

RoninKivjoru
10-20-2003, 03:29 AM
I'm saying that the majority of modern, mainstream Christian churches, (including the one I grew up in) have let themselves become out-of-touch. It's not about testing God, you're testing yourself. You're testing your own faith. In her Book, "The Healing Light," Agnes Sanford, describes many ways to experiment with prayer for healing. It's not experimenting whether God has the power to heal, it's whether we have the faith to use his power, as He always told us we could. As Agnus says, "If we try turning on an electric iron and it does not work, we look to the wiring of the iron, the cord, or the house. We do not stand in dismay before the iron and cry, 'Oh, electricity, please come into my iron and make it work!'" My point is where the church has failed to help me find the problems in my wiring, Aikido has been succesful.

Alan Lomax
10-20-2003, 05:18 AM
" My point is where the church has failed to help me find the problems in my wiring, Aikido has been succesful.
(Here I don full rubber gear and flame resistant underwear, preparing to stir the pot)

That’s great, I wouldn’t wear it but it looks good on you. You really have nailed the point down quite well though.



We could debate “Ki” for as long as threads exist on this website and all of the others too, but really Mike does have it down. Just because some choose to accept and others choose to deify it doesn’t make it any less what it really is. Maybe it’s just me, I am pretty gullible. I do tend to take certain things for granted when presented by senseis with 50 or more years of experience, who can, not only explain but demonstrate and teach the concepts and application of “Ki”. Mike Lee, my thanks to you for keeping the BS detector on high.

“How much Spirituality?” indeed... That must necessarily be a function of each individual. Now, blaming Aikido for ones spirituality seems a bit shallow for me, along the lines of blaming any particular religion or political affiliation. All are pretty weak excuses. Now, Spirituality through life experience, challenge, adversity absolutely. Aikido is merely a conduit. Unfortunately many unusual and frankly unbelievable properties are bestowed upon Aikido and some Aikidoka just for Aikido’s sake.

As Aikido is just a means to an end, it is not in any means the end itself. To attain the spirituality, the “Ki” or any of the other highly regarded and debated properties any one is seeking, requires the same old-fashioned recipe that so many before us have tried and proven true. Repetitive, regular training and critique over an extended period.

I quite enjoy all of the folks that believe they have such a total grasp of the many facets of such dynamic stuff as Martial Arts, Aikido is no exception. Aikido is kind of new to me but Martial Arts and Martial training is not. To gain 50 or more years of understanding, savvy, experience, I will necessarily have to be directly involved for 50 or more years. To realize the spirituality I seek I must endure experiences through training and time. WOW!!! what a concept, to get it, I have to do it. By doing it over time, my perceptions are shaped by experience. My experience shapes my outlook. My outlook adjusts my direction. My direction helps me to reach my goals. My goals are formulated and shaped by all of the aforementioned factors as well as others.

It is my opinion(seldom will I be accused of being humble) all good folks who aspire in Martial Arts training, should keep the BS detectors on high at all times. Don’t blame your behavior on your respective choice of training, religion or politics. Be a good person because of your own motivation, then enjoy the enlightenment of perseverance in your chosen Art(s).

(he backs away, slowly, step by step, he turns...)

Regards

RoninKivjoru
10-20-2003, 07:13 AM
After that post, I kind of feel like I need to defend myself. But since I can't seem to explain myself very well, I'll just say this: I don't have the answers, I was just trying to explain the way some of my experiences have worked out. Sorry if it sounded like bs.

Kevin Leavitt
10-20-2003, 10:57 AM
I think spirituality is something that is discovered through experience.

Some may find the dojo and aikido to be a very spiritual place and may find that they feel closer to a God, person, or humanity in general when they are training.

Others may find drinking a good beer with the guys on Saturday watching the game to be spiritual.

Others find hunting or fishing a way of getting in touch with nature and harmony. (Not me, I find destroying life an oxymoron, but I can see how others find it that way I supose!).

I grew spiritually through the practice of the martial arts and believe it or not in much of the hard training I did in the military.

Earlier in my life the Christian Church served that purpose...but not any longer for me.

While I do find martial arts and yoga to be a spiritual practice, I would never discuss it while training since I am there to train and do, not talk.

I think spirituality is a individual thing that each person must find his own way through. Yes, I do think it is important to figure out how that Iron is wired to get to the root!!

tedehara
10-20-2003, 01:47 PM
I think spirituality is something that is discovered through experience...I think spirituality is a individual thing that each person must find his own way through. Yes, I do think it is important to figure out how that Iron is wired to get to the root!!Hey Kevin,

Are you on manuevers or stationed in Hohenfels?

Are there any units from 8th Infantry Division still there?

:eek:

markwalsh
10-20-2003, 03:13 PM
Off subject or on?

I'm fairly new to aikiweb and was wondering what the general etiquette is?

Quite surprised by some of the content to be honest.

Mark

x

Anders Bjonback
10-20-2003, 05:23 PM
My aikido is only as spiritual as I want to make it, regardless of what the teacher says or whatever his or her emphasis is.

Alan Lomax
10-20-2003, 09:23 PM
After that post, I kind of feel like I need to defend myself. Sorry if it sounded like bs.
Chris,

No worries and absolutely! no need to defend anything you believe. Stick to your guns. The comments I made about BS detectors was not directed at your beliefs but rather at the dangers of over inflated egos and deification of human properties.

Obviously I tend to believe a great deal of what I project to others, go figure huh. For that reason and my lack of better graces, I put forth my opinion somewhat strongly. It was not meant as an assault on you.

Regards

Kevin Leavitt
10-22-2003, 11:52 AM
Ted, Stationed at Hohenfels and love it here (aside from not having anyone to train with).

I am with the 1-4th Infantry Regiment OPFOR.

No 8th ID units that I am aware of. Just 1st ID and 1st AD, and they are not doing too much right now because of deployments to other parts of the world.

The box looks the same as it has for last 50 years...but not as much action here since the cold war end!

Johann Yaeger
01-15-2005, 12:27 AM
Ask me on tuesday or saturday off the mat and you can hear it from the horses mouth!

Dillon
01-15-2005, 03:18 PM
I don't know about this forum in particular, but general etiquette that I try to stick to is to be polite and honest. What more could anyone ask? If you breech etiquette for a particular circumstance, but are honest and willing to learn, it's hard to find fault.

"Karate begins and ends with courtesy." -Gichin Funakoshi

Bill Danosky
01-17-2005, 07:59 PM
IMHO, spirituality is a completely separate consideration from any physical reality. I believe that it's something which can only be experienced through literal spiritual practice, so learning spirituality through Aikido practice would be like trying to learn to box at a ballet studio.

In my case, spiritual practice led me to Aikido, as I was formerly learning some highly violent MA. I think if you're inspired by the non violence of Aikido, it could lead you to some separate spiritual study. I bet Ted Ehara could give you some better clues than I could, being a Ki Society brother.

I've noticed that Aikido draws very spiritual people and that is probably what makes it so easily confused with spiritual practice. You even hear a lot of spiritual talk around Aikido circles, but talk is just talk and practice is practice. Or as Alan Watts said, "You can't get wet from the word water."

Jason Haines
01-18-2005, 04:57 AM
"spirituality" vs "religious" segregates the matter completely.

Bowing is a sign of respect, not of worship. Which took me a while to get over due to false sense of considering it "idolitry" from very religious upbringing.

Aikido, beyond technique, focuses on refinement of a person's entire being and how he/she exists and reacts with nature and the forces (negative & positive) around us.

To criticize and judge Aikido, can in some ways be like criticising the bible... no one REALLY understands the bible completley. We all have different interpretations, different translations, and different applications into our individual life. But again, there is dynamic separation between one's spiritual development and one's religious development, even though they can & do intertwine like DNA, it makes us who we are.

Let me offer this. Many forms of religion, choose yours, offer unique ways of theory and principal to apply in one's life. Take for instance, Christ's teachings, if stricken, "turn the other cheek". Does that purely mean to stand there and accept persecution, hatred, and negativity.... or is 'turning' a word lost in thousands of years and multiple translations that could mean "tenkan"- to turn- dissipate the negative energy, offer peace, balance, and harmony to conflict, thus physically manifesting Christ's love through Aikido.

Aikido teaches us how to physically manifest our own beliefs. Why do we fail at relationships, friend ships, at LOVE... because we fear, we fear intimacy, we fear commitment, just as much as we fear the blade of a katana shomen strike. But to concur it, to accept it, to understand it, we must find harmony and balance, to enter without fear, to enter and gain another's perspective without losing our own, in essence to "irimi"...

Aikido is not a religion, but a physical AND spiritual way to improve our lives, to enter and fulfill our principals and entire self-being.
But none of us are right, we each contain a piece of a grand puzzle, without each others harmony and understanding, the puzzle is never complete, the answer is never exact.

Find the greater good of your religion and beliefs, Aikido can help you to physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually manifest it.

That is what Aikido has done for me. It may not be the same for many of you.

Qatana
01-18-2005, 10:18 AM
IMHO, spirituality is a completely separate consideration from any physical reality. I believe that it's something which can only be experienced through literal spiritual practice, so learning spirituality through Aikido practice would be like trying to learn to box at a ballet studio.

."

What about the Buddhists who do 108 prostrations a day? How bout the American Indians who dance for all their spiritual ceremonies.Or the Tibetan monks who dance? Or the sects that practice ritual fasting? The sects that fast, that perform austerities, that inflict ritual punishment on their own bodies. How about the Quakers? And the Shakers? How about just about all the "pagan" philosophies? The Sufis? Coming of age physical/bodily manipulation such as tatooing or scarring?

And as aikido is a perfect example of the Golden Rule, or "turning the other cheek" it could even be a Christian practice.

Its too early in the morning for me to think of ohter specifically physical spiritual practices.

And I cannot underatend your analogy about ballet & boxing. Which one of those is the Spiritual half of the comparison? HOW Is spirituality>aikido anything like boxing>.ballet?

For that matter, I spent many years performing dance in church services. As part of the liturgy. Tell me that's mere entertainment.