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Jorx
08-23-2003, 01:49 PM
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=102884

How to deal with such kinds of things?

Ignore it? Be "above" it? Frankly, I personally am already a bit fed up with "ignoring" and "being above it all".

And a bit of it is sad and sore truth in those posts as well...

But now I shut up and let you do the talking. (Brave and trolly ones go and flame that forum as well... I'll be reading your posts with pleasure:))

DaveO
08-23-2003, 03:15 PM
Why bother?

They can say whatever the hell they want; what do we care?

A Judo club uses the mats before we do; it's owned and operated by Wayne Erdman; 6th Dan. (Former coach, Candadian Olympic team.) Every one of them - and it's a big class - is respectful, friendly and mature in regards to other disciplines.

So; I don't give two pins what the children on that other forum say or think; it's entirely their loss in my experience. As for going onto that forum; it's an exercise in futility; I for one have no interest in getting into a wah-wah argument with these kids; it isn't one you can win. Let them step onto my mats, I'll answer that way.

akiy
08-23-2003, 04:04 PM
As the saying goes, you can only change yourself -- not others...

-- Jun

ajbarron
08-23-2003, 06:01 PM
I just checked out the "I Hate Aikido" Thread". It was interetsing to me to read these "fighters" perspective on Aikido. When people ask me to show them a "move" I either pretend to turn and run, or I like to show them either "Aikido arm wrestling" ( you give with the person as they are pushing you ) or the "Unbendable Arm" which really stuns them until you show them how to do it and then they are even more amazed at how little effort it takes.

Why am I in Aikido?...because it suits my stage of life , family, beliefs and values etc. Their's ( the I Hate Aikido crowd)reflects this in them. Perhaps they with see other perspectives in the future.

L. Camejo
08-23-2003, 07:16 PM
That was a very funny thread.

Had some truth to it though.

Many self proclaimed "fighters" simply cannot understand how Aikido works until they get bounced off the mat a bit. Tho I'd admit that there are Aikidoka as well who are in the same category :).

It's kinda hard for these guys to admit that after years of honing one's physical strength and fighting skills that it may be possible to be defeated by someone who does not break a sweat in the proces.

If one were to enter into that forum to "defend aikido" they would be doing exactly what could cause defeat in reality - being enticed to engage the enemy in his domain under his rules.

I think if one becomes infused by those statements they should ask themselves why - if their words are not true then it should not bother us.

Most judoka/jujutsuka/mma folks I have met have been very respectful folks. Those who were not either stayed very far and muttered comments or stepped on the mat and understood the helpless feeling of being hit by the earth.

It's all good. Either way we learn something.:)

Arigato

L.C.:ai::ki:

PhilJ
08-23-2003, 09:55 PM
What interests me is the responses I'm seeing -- these folks really got to some of us, didn't they? :) Hey, they got to me too, just because we all have this thing called "ego".

As Andrew suggests, their context for martial arts is tournament fighting, and that's fine. My context is improving my work relationships, handling my mind better, and making myself more efficient in a "one-cut to finish it" type of action, no matter what it is.

Everyone is right. "Ishn't that veird?" ;)

*Phil

Chris Raywood
08-23-2003, 11:52 PM
Jorgen:

I read your post, and must admit the thread bothered me a little too. But if it makes you feel any better, I'd like to make the following points.

1) The threads on the forum in general seem (at least to me) quite juvenile.

2) The respondents on the third and fourth pages of the particular thread seem a little more respectful, and do reprimand the original post.

3) Go to sherdog forum, click "other", then click "the archives." There is another aikido bashing thread there too. Now read it, and tell me if it isn't the biggest crock of manure you've ever seen. The guy is lying through his teeth, and you'll get a good feeling for what I mean by juvenille.

4) You are not in a competitive martial art, and I'm afraid that there is little you can do to impress certain people that are in competitive arts.

5) In my opinion, the art that you, and I are learning is street effective with techniques that have been distilled from historically proven methods. I know this to be true, since the techniques I am now learning are variations of techniques I have used in the previous arts that I have trained in, AND I KNOW THEY WORK!

Anyway, its 1:00 a.m. where I am, and I'm dead tired. I hope I'm thinking straight right now, and haven't offended anyone. I guess I had to say what I said. Take care.

Chris

aikilouis
08-24-2003, 07:41 AM
This thread is a good test for our humility and sense of humour.

This said, those participating in the aforementioned thread rudicule themselves more than anything else.

PhilJ
08-24-2003, 09:06 AM
No matter what we think of them, we need to let them be. 100 years from now, no one will care about what they say, or what we say. :)

*Phil

A. Palumbo
08-24-2003, 09:38 AM
I took a quick look at the thread, and decided that posting would really be a waste of time. Too bad they're so ignorant.

Another thing I noticed was a huge lack of respect. I have never heard another martial art badmouthed in my aikido classes, actually quite the opposite.

I don't know what may be taught in judo, but I would hope that they don't actively denigrate other martial arts.

I can't change another person's behavior, I can only change how I react to them, and in this case, they're better ignored, I guess.

Joseph Huebner
08-24-2003, 11:26 AM
I took a few minutes to read the thread. Like water off a duck's back. Train on.

Joseph

opherdonchin
08-24-2003, 12:07 PM
I enjoyed reading the thread. I may have even learned some things. If being street effective was more important to me, or if I had more time in my life, I'd be very curious to try BJJ or judo.

I wonder about the logic that says, "I study martial art X and beat someone studying martial art Y, so martial art X is superior to Y." It seems to me that this overlooks many of the factors that play into success in a martial conflict.

Irony
08-24-2003, 01:30 PM
What I liked was the post that insinuated that O'Sensei never proved himself because he didn't participate in the Pride/UFC tournaments.

I'll just get out my time machine...

aiki_what
08-24-2003, 02:24 PM
I think the only honorable thing to do is to challenge them to a death match.

aikidoc
08-24-2003, 03:50 PM
Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Sturgeon's Law: "Ninety percent of everything is crap."

I found the thread somewhat juvenile in the beginning. I've worked out with judoka in the past. They had trouble throwing me since I used extension and they could not enter. Then they'd try to sweep my feet and I'd just extend and life up my foot. I let them throw me and then reach up and tug their gi and toss them over (usually off balance do to a sacrifice throw).

Does that make them bad or me good. Neither. These were not street situations and stylistic differences explain the dynamics. I think the guys on the site have a bit too much testosterone and too little experience with martial arts.

jaxonbrown
08-24-2003, 04:50 PM
i read the thread and can see those guys points of view. "too cooperative", "uke's throw themselves". these are the same things i thought when i first started. I still doubt parts of my training but I know Aikido works, just that _my_ aikido doesnt work yet. One of these days I'm going to amaze myself. I just know it.

SeiserL
08-24-2003, 05:36 PM
IMHO, listen to criticism, evaluate your own training, let the criticism go.

Everyone's got an opinion. It is very common to defend your art by knocking others.

From what I've seen, MMA can beat most people in a sparring match. They are tough fighters. If all you want is one-on-one go-to-the-ground, its great. It has its limitations just like any other art.

Now get back to the mat.

sanosuke
08-24-2003, 10:10 PM
they should remember that even Jigoro Kano sensei said that Aikido is his ideal budo. Anyway, just ignore it, their perception and expectation towards martial art is somewhat different with us.

sanosuke
08-24-2003, 10:14 PM
Oh yeah, i ust read in that thread that Aikido is potentially dangerous because it builds you false confidence. Now that's interesting. What do you guys saying about this?

Chocolateuke
08-24-2003, 11:42 PM
I think any martial art can be potentionally self destructive in combat because of ego. Bruce lee was not a great MA because of the system he studied, The man trained 6 hours a day. Ushiba would have never achived his level of mastery without hardwork and training. Granted they could whoop my but any day of the week, but not because of their style, but because of their skill and training.

I doubt a lot of those kids on that fourm has ever been in a "real" fight. I haven't I have used Aikido tech before once or twice, but not in life and death duels. The person who wins in Combat is the person who can control their actions/thoughts/adrenelin the best. Sure MA training may upp the odds, but so does a baseball bat.

Training is a tool for YOUR self improvement and hopefully improve yourself to the point you dont need to get angery and fight or do something stupid to get into a fight. Remember dont judge anybody, Ushiba's students say that Ushiba never classified people in catagories of, "that guy is bad I wont help him, or that guy is good I will hang out with him." Ushiba had a lot of compassion for human kind, that is why he created Aikido.

shihonage
08-25-2003, 12:52 AM
The very first post in the thread is written by a person who is angered with an Aikidoka's behavior.

And that person is right. The Aikidoka in question clearly had more ego problems (derived from false self-confidence which was being ruined by this Judo guy) than the average Judo guy.

If he joined a Judo class then he should behave like he's expected in a Judo class, and not try to make everyone else behave like they're in his Aikido class.

He should accept "losing" in Judo, learn and get on with it instead of whining all the time.

There's a lot of Aikido practitioners with this kind of attitude.

There are even blackbelts (who wouldn't be able to pass their shodan test now if their life depended on it) who always say "Go easy whoa whoa" when one tries to give a sincere attack, give cheating insincere attacks as uke, stop technique 100% in it's tracks, with a fake smile on their face (because hey in an Aikido class you better smile !), in order to "show how to better do it", and when you start to pull it off, they will let go and roll "dignifiedly" by themselves, giving you no feeling of connection or anything whatsoever.

This is the kind of person who would behave that way in a Judo class.

So yes a lot of the complaints in that "I hate Aikido" thread are actually true.

bogglefreak20
08-25-2003, 05:24 AM
As I am merely a beginner in :ki: :ai: :ki: :do: my thoughts might seem a bit (or more than a bit) naive to all of you. But still, the most obvious impression after reading the thread on Sherdog site is that the words express a lot of violence and that they are ment to insult someone, namely aikidoka.

A couple of rhetorical questions to contemplate upon: Why does one never see such hateful threads on this site? Could the peaceful nature of Aikido be the reason?

My impression of Ki Aikido after a year's training is that violence is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Some of you might disagree, however, the way of peace, serenity, least agressive action etc. remains the main goal in my personal training.

Reading the insults and other rude or otherwise overpotent words made this distinction between Ki Aikido and other martial arts even more obvious to me. Not that I mean anything bad about other martial arts or those that train them. To each his own.

And perhaps a final thought - I simply cannot think too highly of a site where a colour of a belt labeled under the username is a means to define the "weight" of someone's words. If you have something to say, say it and let the words express your mental state, feelings, character or spiritual level on their own. If nothing smart comes out, then simply take it as a challenge and train harder :) Hiding behind a coloured belt is in my opinion pure vanity. Again, no offense ment!

paw
08-25-2003, 05:56 AM
Just to clear something up......
Why does one never see such hateful threads on this site?

Such threads are here. They tend not to last long, but they do show up from time to time.
Reading the insults and other rude or otherwise overpotent words made this distinction between Ki Aikido and other martial arts even more obvious to me.

Um.... That's an internet forum with it's own culture. It's likely that most of the people there wouldn't use the same language if speaking to someone face to face and people are disciplined on sherdog's when they cross the boundaries of that forum's guidelines.
And perhaps a final thought - I simply cannot think too highly of a site where a colour of a belt labeled under the username is a means to define the "weight" of someone's words.

The "belt" indicates how long someone has been a member of the forum, not rank in any specific martial art/martial style.

Best advice has come from Lynn:

Now get back to the mat.

Regards,

Paul

John Boswell
08-25-2003, 09:58 AM
I think that another thing to consider when it comes to post like the one linked above is "What are they calling an Aikidoka?"

I've studied Aikido about a year. I'm fifth kyu, I understand but need a lot of work on the basics. Does that make me an "Aikidoka?" I use it, sure. I know the philosophy and principles behind Aikido. But if I were to step on the mat with someone who uses Judo, I'd probably get tossed around like a rag doll and if that person is a jerk, their impression of Aikido is that its a joke!

Aikido is only as impressive, dynamic, workable, useful... as the person using it. No more and no less.

Let all the macho jerks of the world keep their opinions. Personally, I'd rather they all think that way... it'll keep them off guard for when they meet a TRUE Aikidoka who will simply just own them.

2 cents. ;)

bob_stra
08-25-2003, 10:16 AM
Well, after an indepth reading (ie: 1st sentance of of 1st post)...

Some thoughts -

Quote:

-"I hate Aikido and anyone who does it"

Meh.

I have a pet theory as to why MMA'ers hate aikidoka, but...also Meh.

Sounds like a communication problem / different expectations / not respecting the other guy kinda thing. Maybe a little primadonna-ism (Medical term, I swear)

Also, ignorance is bliss.

To sum up -

(1) Meh

(2) Communication problem between the two

(3) ignorance is bliss

PS: I just realized I answered a related thread over at R.M.A. On the topic of injuring your partners. -

"I hate this shit. Hate it with a passion. Not only is it dangerous, but its arrogant. I ain't your chew toy, fuckwit - I've got a family to feed and a job to go to tommorow"

laovel
08-25-2003, 10:28 AM
Not that it means anything but I as soon as I saw the posters choice for an icon (Snoop)I knew that I would be reading a message from someone who had a long way to go on the path. Maybe he/she is on a different road?

I find it interesting that if you follow most MA to the higher levels they start training and talking about what O'Sensai had his students (and now us) start at the begining. I'm not saying that makes Aikido better/worse, just an interesting training point. Would we do more body effective training if we concentrated on it? I think so. Would we have to take more steps on the path of the way? Yes.

Peace/Love/Tofu.

It's all the world needs.

bob_stra
08-25-2003, 10:47 AM
I just read the rest of the "I hate aikido" thread.

Now I'm in a grumpy mood.

You guys suck for bringing it to my attention.

;-)

Lyle Bogin
08-25-2003, 10:50 AM
As the saying goes, you can only change yourself -- not others...

-- Jun

Is that really true?

If, for example, I roll with one of these guys and get them to tap, and they then decide that aikido has some value, what does that mean? He has changed his opinion, as a direct result of my ability to apply theory in action.

When Rickson Gracie showed those interested in MA the value of his training methods and techniques, and thousands of people started adapting to and enjoying his family's style, what did that mean? Did he change anyone? People certainly changed their opinions and actions.

When O'Sensei brought his art to the world and gave us such a wonderful outlet/tool/whatever we consider out art to be, were we not all changed in some way?

It seems to me that people must allow themselves to change, therefore the direct cause of that change can be said to be internal. However, I don't think that diminishes the value of the external events or actions that initiated that change.

Thoughts? Am I saying anything at all, haha?

paw
08-25-2003, 10:53 AM
Not that it means anything but I as soon as I saw the posters choice for an icon (Snoop)I knew that I would be reading a message from someone who had a long way to go on the path.

Not like you would judge them, or anything.....
I find it interesting that if you follow most MA to the higher levels they start training and talking about what O'Sensai had his students (and now us) start at the begining.

Most MAs? Bit of an exageration there, don't you think? Recall that O Sensei talked about kami entering his body and often his students claimed they didn't fully understand what he was talking about....

IMO, the original thread was a basic "we are right, they --- aikidoists --- are wrong", and now there is a similar theme from the aikidoists --- albeit with more polite language.

It shouldn't come as a shock that there's a good population of martial arts/martial sports that find aikido, and other arts, worthless based on some criteria they hold dear. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul

akiy
08-25-2003, 11:07 AM
If, for example, I roll with one of these guys and get them to tap, and they then decide that aikido has some value, what does that mean? He has changed his opinion, as a direct result of my ability to apply theory in action.
Exactly -- he has changed his opinion...
It seems to me that people must allow themselves to change, therefore the direct cause of that change can be said to be internal. However, I don't think that diminishes the value of the external events or actions that initiated that change.
Without one's internal motivation (conscious or subconscious) to change, one will not.

For example (going back to Internet discussions), I'm sure everyone here has seen enough "discussions" where there are people trying to change the other party's mind through "proof," "research results," "statistics," "credentials," and "attributions." People who don't care to have their minds changed will not care about such things however meaningful they may be to you. The thread in question seems to have been started by people who have no willingness to change their minds. As Paul says, some people find no value in aikido (or whatever it is that they don't care for). And so it goes.

-- Jun

laovel
08-25-2003, 11:27 AM
I wasn't hiding the fact that I was judging (<gasp><grin>) their music tastes but more from what I think of how Snoop acts and stands for (not that I would really know, just from what mass-media I see)and why would someone follow/adore/glorify (or whatever it is we do to pop-stars) that kind of person? No need to answer that anyone, I don't need to put on my flame retardant suit.

"Recall that O Sensei talked about kami entering his body and often his students claimed they didn't fully understand what he was talking about...."

Ok, me type bad. I was talking more basic, as that is my understanding of Aikido. I was speaking of things like "getting off the line" and "blending" and "using the attackers strength/intention". Not kami, I have no experience with that. The few other MA's that I've had a taste of or have spoken to someone face to face about (*not just random web posting <smirk>) seem to lead to that sort of feeling. Obviously not all of them...i'm not saying Aikido is "better" for it, i just find it interesting and think it's nicer to talk about comparisons then the sandbox mentality of "i'm better then you, because I'm wearing a star on my belly!"

Personally, I'm really liking the idea of training being misogi at this point in my life, and trying to take my training off the mat. I'm now a father of two and it's the hardest Aikido that I've ever done!

I'm not shocked by anything people say or do out there...I think that baseball and cricket players probably have the same kind of discussion between them.

Budd
08-25-2003, 11:28 AM
"Sticks and stones . . .

May break my bones . . .

Especially when swung or thrown!"

Seriously, it doesn't bother me that Aikido gets trashed on a testosterone-filled forum of angry teenagers that are prone to making snap-judgements and seek to legitimize said opinions through profanity and obstinacy. As someone earlier wrote, it's an ego thing and a game I choose not to play. I would invite any that think it's weak to come train at my dojo, but generally don't bother because I've found it to be an exercise in futility when it comes to online communications.

But are valid points made as well? I think the aikidoka (assuming the poster was being honest) that displayed such poor behavior at the judo school was not the best representative one could have hoped for. In some ways, I think aikido faces many of the same issues as tai chi. Plenty just see a system of fancy movements, whereas I see systems of practice that are ideal for self-development and interpersonal relations, while at the same time, instilling excellent martial principles.

The quality of instruction is, of course, a variable that's dependent on the training facility, teacher, etc. The opinions of folks looking to trash aikido aren't going to affect this.

Lyle Bogin
08-25-2003, 11:34 AM
"Without one's internal motivation (conscious or subconscious) to change, one will not."

And without external motivation to change, one will not, especially in this case.

These people who are so unwilling to change their minds might not be so unwilling if they got a good toss or effective pin from an aikidoist. The foundation of MMA is adaptablity and the acceptance of the validity of a martial art based on efficacy of techniques in a certain environment. If they were to be "defeated" some how by aikido techniques, their adaptation to or inclusion of those techniques would be proof that they believe aikido works. Of course, one can argue that the theory of aikido is already present in well accepted MMA components such as BJJ. And so it goes :).

kensparrow
08-25-2003, 12:05 PM
My favorite quote from that thread was "Pain is temporary but pride is forever!" He must have meant that matter how hard we work, we will forever be doing battle with our own egos. I would never have expected to find such wisdom on a forum like that! From the mouths of babes...

Cyrijl
08-25-2003, 12:38 PM
1-The reason why aikido gets very little repsect these days is precisely because of all of your self-agrandizing posts

2-It's kinda hard for these guys to admit that after years of honing one's physical strength and fighting skills that it may be possible to be defeated by someone who does not break a sweat in the proces.
Well then that happens let me know

3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

4-By taking the so-called 'high road' many of you are acting just as those you would criticize.

5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.

akiy
08-25-2003, 12:45 PM
5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.
I do? Hm.

-- Jun

Budd
08-25-2003, 01:15 PM
1-The reason why aikido gets very little repsect these days is precisely because of all of your self-agrandizing posts

2-

Well then that happens let me know

3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.

4-By taking the so-called 'high road' many of you are acting just as those you would criticize.

5-Someone asked why there are no posts like that here. Well because the admins silence people like that kind of quick. That is not pro or anti admin, but it what seems to happen.
I didn't realize that we were all being self-aggrandizing. I thought the general theme seemed to be, "oh well, let them think what they'd like".

You sort of dance around a valid point -- namely that there are people that exhibit bad behavior regardless of style, age, rank, etc. But lumping all of us that have participated in this thread into that category seems a bit overly judgemental.

I'm somewhat new to the boards and don't have time to extensively read the archives, so I'm not sure if you're coming from the standpoint of 'I don't like aikido', which I don't agree with (but fully respect your right to feel that way), or 'Some aikido people tick me off', with which I can relate.

bob_stra
08-25-2003, 02:25 PM
3-I don't usually read sherdog because of the juvenille posts, but i have had the same experience with aikidoka. If it were not illegal i honestly probably would have hit one or two.
Seconded on both counts.

Cyrijl
08-25-2003, 03:27 PM
1-if you get upset by me saying self-aggrandizing posts, then you must lump yourself in that category.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.

You will see that consistently i have praised the techniques in aikido, but question the validity of many of the training methods in terms of effectiveness. I was even told in one dojo that aikido is not good for self defense until you have been studying for a while.

The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.

For people who get upset so easily:

If you love aikido, fine. If you can say you train in the manner you wish too (either for dance or for fighting), that is great too. No one should waste a minute of thought getting upset at what i write/wrote. It is merely my two cents (or a bit less)...

Cyrijl
08-25-2003, 03:29 PM
p.s. I like aikido too, the techniques and theory of body mechanics. I try to apply them in the martial arts i study now. I also enjoy most of the people on this board for their views and knowledge, experience and stories. But that does not mean that some people are not full of it.

aikilouis
08-25-2003, 03:52 PM
All this thread reminds me of something I saw on some other forum (not MA-related) :

"Arguing on Internet message boards is like competing in the Special Olympics. Wether you win or lose doesn't matter, you're still retarded."

Budd
08-25-2003, 03:58 PM
1-if you get upset by me saying self-aggrandizing posts, then you must lump yourself in that category.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.

You will see that consistently i have praised the techniques in aikido, but question the validity of many of the training methods in terms of effectiveness. I was even told in one dojo that aikido is not good for self defense until you have been studying for a while.

The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.

For people who get upset so easily:

If you love aikido, fine. If you can say you train in the manner you wish too (either for dance or for fighting), that is great too. No one should waste a minute of thought getting upset at what i write/wrote. It is merely my two cents (or a bit less)...
1- Nah, I'm not upset, just wondering if you really meant to lump us all into one category.

2- Haven't really seen any confrontations on this board so I can't really comment.

3- Hey, I replied over there, also. No sweat, I don't worry about the knee-jerk reactions of others and I certainly don't think that aikido is the end-all be-all way of martial training -- or living. It does offer some great options, though, and I sure do enjoy the training.

I touch on this over on Bullshido, but I think that because aikido is still finding it's legs, developmentally speaking, there are still going to be different interpretations regarding how effective it is, how deadly it is and how deadly it should be. I enjoy the opportunity to discuss with others what it means to them. I also think O-Sensei was a pretty remarkable person, but you're not going to find me deifying him, either.

As far as whether the techniques are deadly . . heck, a frying pan is deadly. I think if you're training in the martial arts just to be deadly, you're somewhat missing the point. I also think that there are enough different ways of training in aikido (just dancing to brutal randori), that I think it's more useful to address specific weaknesses in certain methods of training, e.g. attitude, ettiquette, levels of contact and resistance, etc, than to point a finger and label a style as being XYZ (although, I'm definitely guilty of the latter, I'm working on it though ;) ).

Best/Budd

L. Camejo
08-25-2003, 04:07 PM
2-Well then that happens let me know
It has happened, with me, even before my initial post was made.

Now you know.:)

L.C.:ai::ki:

Irony
08-25-2003, 04:14 PM
The fact that in many more trad'l dojo, quesitons on the mat are frowned upon is one example of problems faced in many dojo. There is a martial aspect and an art aspect. But tradition should be a tangent feature and not at the core of either. Trying to place japanese customs in an american (western) setting is highly asynchonistic. This seems to hinder aikido training and improvement. Bowing, the clothing, the setting are accidental to aikido not essential to the forms.
Somewhat off topic, but I agree with this a lot. The first dojo I attended after I moved up from Jacksonville was very traditional-minded, much more strict than what I was used to. This coupled with a slightly different style made it nearly impossible to learn anything. So I left and went to another school in the area that was a lot more friendly and a lot more easy-going. I've learned a lot more by being able to learn my own way than being stuffed into a traditionally Japanese mold.

Corey
08-25-2003, 04:42 PM
I read through the posts on the "I hate Aikido" thread. I thought it was kind of funny. Most of the comments were second-hand accounts of how aikidoka are and are not. I don't think many of them have even studied enough about aikido to make an educated opinion on the subject. I am not saying there are not shortcomings, but the shortcomings are in ourselves not the method. So who cares what any of those people think anyway? What are they doing to help you? In the end, each of us alone must answer to ourselves.

Patrick Barr
08-25-2003, 06:34 PM
I hate Aikido as well. It makes me think and grow as person. GOD HOW ANNOYING!! I mean, I only started 5 months ago and already my life is ruined by better posture, improved breathing habits and this stupid "more enlightened" feeling about the world around me. JEESH!

Erik
08-25-2003, 10:37 PM
Having watched a number of the UFC events I've never, not once, witnessed someone use an aikido technique from the mainstream curriculum. Nor, have I ever seen someone attack with any of the attacks we use in the way most of us regularly practice them. I doubt anyone has controlled space and distance using aikido concepts either. Most of the time grapplers close pretty much at will although with some of the rule changes the game has evolved so distance fighters have a better chance these days.

If my perception is correct, and it may not be, perhaps there's a reason that these guys look at what we do in the way they do. So maybe instead of telling everyone how spiritual our s*** is perhaps we would be better served by blending and trying to understand why MMA types think the way they do.

PeterR
08-26-2003, 12:39 AM
So I know I have been a bit reactionary in the past but really why worry. Truth be told I'ld rather have those sort spouting off on their own BB rather than show up on my doorstep.

It doesn't matter what MA you do, the sort of negative opinions expressed usually mean that their exposure is pretty insular. I've heard some pretty ripe opinions among Aikidoists for basically the same reason.

Common guys - let's start a I hate [insert detested MA here] thread. Oh wait - we've done that.

PhilJ
08-26-2003, 01:06 AM
I don't understand what all the noise is about. We're all woven from the same thread and I'm sure we have more in common with those folks than we think. They chose a different way to go about their business. Their alienation of other MA's, much like here, only serves to ostracize the speaker, not the group being spoken about. Let them do what they want.

Corey indirectly brought up a good point. Can you 'feel your ki' flowing when you post or are you 'in your head' about these other practitioners? I lost my center at first when I read those posts, but getting it back makes it all feel better. :)

I enjoy hanging out with you people on the boards here, maybe more than I would with the other group we're referring to. Everyone here is capable of having a good spirit, and that's why I like this place.

*Phil

kironin
08-26-2003, 02:51 AM
.

2-Jun akiyama. I have seen more than a cuple of times when people were 'warned,' for things which did not seem (to me) to be that bad. Also any confrontation whether, legitimate or not, seemed to be squashed rather early (not necessarily by admins, but by the majority.)

3-Budd, i replied to you over on bullshido, but will here too. Whenever there is someone who comments negatively on aikido members or the art itself, people become VERY defensive, but do not usually adress the issues. In the sherdog thread (which i skimmed because i do not liek the board or have respect ofr many posters), there were some valid points made about the training methods many aikidoka are engaged in. The problem is when one claims that aikido is so deadly, but then gets upset when one asks to demonstrate it.
2- It may not seem that bad until you have been on an email list of BB that gets completely out of control and taken over by trolls or other confrontational elements with entirely too much free time and drives away the more interesting posters. I personally don't think it's a bad thing to have an online community that is willing to keep enforcing a little civility. In addition I would say Jun uses a pretty light hand as an admin. Jun rock on.

3- The Sherdog thread isn't offensive. It is just a boring piece of tripe. The posters seem to be blithely ignorant that a significant number of people in aikido also have significant experience in Judo. All the points have been hashed over a thousand times on aikido lists or even in the old days on rec.martial-arts. Much more articulate versions of the criticisms can be found in published articles on this site or Aikido Journal online. Many suggestions have been described very well for supplemental training for those who feel the need. Numerous examples abound of people in different strains of aikido who deal with these concerns, etc.

It's not even a real challenge to let it roll off your back and move on.

For those who are bothered, heed Lynn's advice, do some research and reading, keep an open mind and look for opportunities to experiment and explore while training on the mat.

back to lurking,

Craig

Kensai
08-26-2003, 06:18 AM
As a poster on Bullshido.com, which is populated be some very talented MMA individuals, Aikido can be seen as a soft touch.

I know different, sure I'm not pushed as hard as a pro MMA fighter, 90% of Sherdoggers probably dont train that hard. I've trained with BJJ/MMA guys that have had nothing but praise for the style of Aikido I do, a compliment that I return to them when I step on their mat.

Aikido is was you make it.

Bottomline for me is, do I train sincerily. Do I fall down not because I tank, but because its real, do I tap because its real. For me the answer is yes.

Sven Groot
08-26-2003, 08:22 AM
After reading the I hate Aikido thread and this thread, I would like to quote Dutch comedian Freek de Jonge:

"Most people make generalisations" :D

DaveO
08-26-2003, 02:20 PM
It's interesting how a simple "Look at this annoying thread" post swelled into such a good discussion, innit? :)

The "I hate Aikido" thread was, in fact, ameturish, childish, and a few other "-ishes" I don't have words to at the moment. ;) It does however (as some have stated) make a very good point regarding Aikido training.

Now I'm going to annoy some people here; I apologize in advance.

First; let's be under no doubts: Aikido does work; and works spectacularly. I know - I've used it in a real-life situation. (I described the encounter in the "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" thread.) I point this out because there seem to be many who take Aikido without trusting its effectiveness.

Please note: I don't know aikido yet - just the beginnings. I'm just a 4th kyu - a 5th at the time of the incident.

But here's the kicker: Aikido - or Karate, or Kung Fu, BJJ or Jedi Lightsaber training does not beat The Bad Guys, the user does. Success in a fight (by which I include a self-defence situation) is not dependant on what you know, or how much you know, it is dependant on the person himself - whether or not he has the discipline and wherewithal to act correctly in the split-second timing of a fight. MA doesn't teach this; experience does.

For that reason; when it comes to MMA and other sparring matches, MMA practicioners will have a decided advantage due to their greater experience in facing "real-live" opponents. This is mitigated to some extent by Aikido's randori and centering exercises, but not nearly enough, IMO.

I love Aikido, but I am constantly frustrated by the attitude of some of our instructors; who tend to spout "peace, love and Ki" as the core of self-defence. While I laud the goal; I point out that without a solid tactical sense; good discipline and firm base of experience in actually getting up there and laying hands on someone trying to hurt you, such flowery thoughts are ultimately self-destructive in the light of a real encounter.

I'm a fighter by nature and training; I both practice and study (with books and everything!! :D ) the tactics and science of self-defence. I have, on several occasions, taken down yudansha at their own game because though their thechnique is vastly superior to my own; their skills aren't - they don't have the same tactical awareness and sheer "I'm going to win, period!" grunt required to win under such conditions. Which is a shame - if they did; they would be well-nigh unbeatable; instead they stick to line training, "proper attacks", and nice-looking ukemi.

So; I suppose it depends on why you're taking Aikido. If you're taking it for personal betterment or stress relief, great! If, however, you're taking it for self-defence; I strongly suggest you look at the art from the viewpoint of: "What will I do if this were real", and act accordingly.

Sorry; this is WAY too long and off-base; I'll shut up now. :)

drDalek
08-26-2003, 02:56 PM
The problems that the original poster of the "I hate Aikido" thread had with Aikido was from sparring with an Aikido practioner who ended up being a piss-poor uke in his "home-style"

I recently watched a Muay Thai fight on tv and from everything I heard about it, I was expecting broken bones, lots of blood and huge gnarly bruises. To my dissapointment these muay thai guys did not even knee each other in the groin when they got each other in grappling range.

Why? because it was a highly restricted, organised sporting event, not some back-alley deathmatch. Judo does not allow gripping the face, the hair or manipulating the small joints, atleast not where I went a couple of times. I am not clear on what is allowed in bjj but I can say with certainty that the "tastier" techniques of Aikido would probably be illegal on their mat.

I have to add though that I also find certain other Aikido practioners I have tangled with "questionable", arrogance, bloated egos and over-eager bullies as well as prematurely-enlightened sissies abound.

If you cant even take a well-placed intentional punch to the face and remain friends with your opponent then you lack the moral fibre and character of even the most novice boxer. (Not that I ever punched anyone in the face, well, not intentionally anyway)

Irony
08-26-2003, 03:36 PM
But here's the kicker: Aikido - or Karate, or Kung Fu, BJJ or Jedi Lightsaber training does not beat The Bad Guys, the user does.
I dunno... Jedi Lightsaber training might do it.

No way am I gonna go in for kotegaeshi when one of those things is humming at me.

:)

paw
08-26-2003, 03:45 PM
sigh.....

Clearly off topic, but I'll bite ....

Wynand,
Why? because it was a highly restricted, organised sporting event, not some back-alley deathmatch. Judo does not allow gripping the face, the hair or manipulating the small joints, atleast not where I went a couple of times. I am not clear on what is allowed in bjj but I can say with certainty that the "tastier" techniques of Aikido would probably be illegal on their mat.
A regular comment, addressed by Paul Sharp of the Straight Blast Gym:

As someone that is part of a group of guy's that are frequently dismissed as simply sport fighters I hope I have something useful to add.

Why the assumption that you can beat us without rules when you can't beat us with rules?

Those rules happen to protect both of us, it would seem that most have forgotten that small yet significant point. Whats keeping me from maiming you for life when I get position and you obviously can't get away? The rules, take those rules away and I'll curb your ass right after I knock/choke you out.

The complete text may be found at

Street v Sport (http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=paul&parent=Press)

Regards,

Paul

opherdonchin
08-26-2003, 04:38 PM
While I laud the goal; I point out that without a solid tactical sense; good discipline and firm base of experience in actually getting up there and laying hands on someone trying to hurt you, such flowery thoughts are ultimately self-destructive in the light of a real encounter.Dave,

you speak from experience where I cannot, so take what I say in that context.

I feel like the text I've quoted contradicts itself. You 'laud the goal' and yet at the same time you criticize it for not achieving other goals. If my goal is to be as effective as I can be without seeking to hurt others or compete with them, then it makes sense to purposely close myeslf off to options that conflict with this goal.

On the other hand, if you see yourself as a fighter and you enjoy and seek the opportunity to win and come out ahead, then, of course, you have a different goal. I might win less often and still see myself as accomplishing my goals. You might hurt people more often, but still see yourself as accomplishing your goals. There's a lot to be learned by each of us from seeing the other persons path and trying our best to understand or connect to it, but there's little to be gained from trying to figure out which is better.

Now, one of the most interesting claims that is made about Aikido is that it teaches you that, in choosing to eschew competition and the pursuit of winnning, you will become more effective rather than less effective. Certainly, I've found that that held true for me in my life and in my dealings with people. Like I said earlier, I'm in no position to judge whether it holds true in a fight.

I would claim that it's the sort of thing that is hard to judge without trying it and hard to try without at least somewhat believing in it. Thus, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy to a certain extent.

I would agree with you that 'knowledge of the tactics and science of self defence' would make a lot of difference in a fight. That's independent, though, of the 'I'm going to win, period,' attitude.

DaveO
08-26-2003, 05:31 PM
Hello Opher, please let me explain my position. :)

1st; I stated I'm a fighter by nature and training - that does not mean I enjoy fighting, or winning. Personally, I think fighting is a stupid, senseless act save in the defence of yourself or another. What it does mean is that I am both prepared and capable to do so if the need arises. Hope that clears that bit up. :)

Now, to the important bits:
I feel like the text I've quoted contradicts itself. You 'laud the goal' and yet at the same time you criticize it for not achieving other goals. If my goal is to be as effective as I can be without seeking to hurt others or compete with them, then it makes sense to purposely close myeslf off to options that conflict with this goal.
Actually; it doesn't, although on the surface it might seem to. Let me see if I can explain; it's hard for me to put my thoughts into words sometimes.

When one enters a conflict, either willingly or not (i.e. in a "fight" or "defence situation"), one must keep one goal uppermost: to win. When it is real; there can be no such thing as a satisfactory draw or educational loss; losing means a very real possibility of serious injury and - while statistically extremely unlikely - death. As sad as it is; that fact cannot be disputed. This, then, is the core of the "I'm going to win, period" quote - the decision to commit yourself totally and completely to achieving a successful outcome.

But how you achieve it is another matter altogether. Once you've made that commitment, you then choose your method and act accordingly. Ideally; you defend against your opponent (or more likely; opponents) using just enough force to win, and no more. Often, (and this is where some people run into trouble regarding this question) it may be necessary to use more force then desired. I'll use my one example to illustrate:

In my situation; I was set upon by 3 drunks outside an alternative bar they'd been tossed out of. It was winter; they were plastered, they wanted to punish someone for the injustice; I was the likely target. If there was just one; it would have been simple - just tenkan, keep him out of reach and fuddle him up enough 'till he got real dizzy - a tactic I've used long before I started Aikido. BUT - there were 3 of them. Now; Dummy 1 was drunk enough to do a seriously stupid thing: he reached out and grabbed me so he could plant one on with his other hand - perhaps to make sure which of the two of me he was seeing was real? I dunno. ;) Dummies 2 and 3 were coming in for the sides; I had no time for games. So I put nikkyo on hard - 210lbs. coming down onto his wrist with full force. I've since been told nikkyo doesn't work on drunk guys - all I can say is wanna bet? He shrieked like Gary Coleman trying out for the Vienna Boy's Choir and hit his knees. That scream was enough to bring Dummies 2 and 3 up short just long enough for me to send Dummy 1 into the wall and reposition - the whole thing lasted, I would guess, about 10 seconds.

Now believe me, I don't want to hurt anyone; even a drunk dummy. But in the end; he wasn't injured, nor were the other two (who never did get involved; they took to their heels when I said "next!" Intimidation IS a viable form of defence.) More importantly; I wasn't hurt.

I hope I haven't gone too astray here. The point is; you can see the two different points at work: 1) the determination to win, and 2) the decision to use the best possible method for the time.

So it could be said that of the two points being discussed, the decision to use minimum force is qualitative, while the determination to win is quantitative.

On a side note Opher, thanks so much for such an excellent reply; it's just the sort of debating I enjoy this forum for. By asking; you've forced me to put into words things I have difficulty expressing. Doing so helps immensely in my own understanding and future teaching of the topic.

Cheers!

:)

Amassus
08-26-2003, 08:04 PM
Well, if nothing else that mma thread got many aikidoka talking :)

:circle: :square: :triangle: :p

opherdonchin
08-26-2003, 10:42 PM
Dave,

I enjoyed that story quite a bit.
When one enters a conflict, either willingly or not (i.e. in a "fight" or "defence situation"), one must keep one goal uppermost: to win. When it is real; there can be no such thing as a satisfactory draw or educational loss; losing means a very real possibility of serious injury and - while statistically extremely unlikely - death.I'm told that in any serious fight there is a real possibility of serious injury and even death whether you win or lose. Of course, not every 'conflict' is a serious fight, but maybe that's what you meant.

In any case, it's a sort of 'I makes my choices, I takes my lumps.' My choice, right now, is not to train with this 'win or die' attitude. It's not very interesting to me, it doesn't seem very relevant to my life, and I'm much more interested in finding out how effective I can be without that attitude. It's possible that I'll be less effective than I might otherwise have been, I can't really know, can I?

Still, I feel that I have a lot to gain by training that way and, in the unlikely event of a 'real' fight, I just have to hope that I'm as effective as the situation requires. Of course, that's true no matter how I train.

DaveO
08-27-2003, 03:01 AM
Hello again, Opher!

The great thing about Aikido is that it is what you choose to make it; anyone is able to proceed in the way they see best. :)

I practice the tactical side, my Sensei practices the technical side, our Sempai (and yourself apparently) prefer the spiritual side. Great! That's wonderful; that's what Aikido's there for!

Just to be clear though; I don't train any different really than any other student; I relax and have a lot of fun in class. I'm not "go, go,go!" all the time as you might suspect. The difference is in the intent, that's all. If someone's learning a technique, I don't resist saying "not working..." unless they want me to; I bail as fast as the next guy, for all the reasons we do ukemi. Its only when people start talking in absolutes that I debate the real-life application; you know, when someone says "This always works", or "Bad Guys will do this"; particularly if the info offered is - excuse me please - dead wrong. :)

Cheers!

Dennis Hooker
08-27-2003, 06:27 AM
“I hate Aikido”

Man oh man I know, me too. Keeps me on the mat all the time. When I was younger I could have been enjoying the amorous affection of a young lady but noooo I had to do Aikido. When I became middle aged I could have been embarking on a carrier or wealth and fame but Noooo I had to do Aikido. Now in my dotage I should be either fishing or playing the banjo in my rocking chair on the front porch watching the grandkids play in the yard like other sensible old folks but nooo I am going to do Aikido. I don’t know if hate is a strong enough word for this addiction :-)

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

drDalek
08-27-2003, 06:44 AM
sigh.....

Why the assumption that you can beat us without rules when you can't beat us with rules?

Those rules happen to protect both of us, it would seem that most have forgotten that small yet significant point. Whats keeping me from maiming you for life when I get position and you obviously can't get away? The rules, take those rules away and I'll curb your ass right after I knock/choke you out.
I dont want to burst any bubbles for you there but you do realise that grappling(judo, bjj); trapping(aikido, wing chun) and striking(karate, taekwondo) are entirely different games with entirely different rules.

My point was: why would I as an Aikido practitioner ever think that I have any kind of advantage when GRAPPLING with a grappler?

If I had my way (which you dont in a competition) I would never even let the grappler get within grappling range of me. I cant beat them at their own game and I am not allowed to play my game. Clearly I am at the disadvantage.

What the original poster of the "I hate ..." thread was moaning about was that his uke (who happens to do Aikido) turned out to be a whiny little sissie when he wanted to grapple with him.

I am just saying that if the Aikido practioner had his way (and his Aikido was worth a damn) the grappler would never have had an opportunity to apply his grappling techniques.

Personally the only fault that I could find in the original posters first post was that he automatically associated one bad experience with an uke with the style the uke practiced. The rest of the posters however need to be challenged to a serious of back-alley deathmatches for not pointing this flaw out to him. (just kidding)

paw
08-27-2003, 08:02 AM
Wynand,
I dont want to burst any bubbles for you there but you do realise that grappling(judo, bjj); trapping(aikido, wing chun) and striking(karate, taekwondo) are entirely different games with entirely different rules.

I take it you didn't read the entire article. That coupled with your own admission that you don't know what is allowed in bjj lead me to several pretty obvious conclusions.

Instead of saying how the posters at sherdog's don't understand aikido's perspective, you might want to take some time trying to understand their perspective. Once you do, it's very easy to see why they say what they say --- and contextually, why they are unlikely to change their opinion.

Finally, I do find it interesting that you refer to aikido as a trapping art, as you are the first and only person I'm aware of to do so. Further, there's a very serious debate among JKD'ers as to if trapping "works" at all ... but I suppose you're aware of that. If you had bothered to read link, you'd also be aware of Mr. Sharp's thoughts about trapping as well (coincidence?).

If you really want to talk about sport v street or trapping, start a new thread or let's go to another forum. IMO, this thread has long past any usefulness. It began with rather dubious behavior of one group (sherdog's) towards an "innocent" bystander and is now filled with the same dubious behavior directed back.

Newsflash: There's a group of martial artists/martial styists who believe aikido is worthless in every respect. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul

actoman
08-27-2003, 09:23 AM
Those who are dissing another art IMO are being very disrespectful, and are probably very undisciplined, hotheaded people with no knowledge of the basis for the art..peace.

In other words..A**holes!

drDalek
08-27-2003, 09:59 AM
<snip>

Newsflash: There's a group of martial artists/martial styists who believe aikido is worthless in every respect. Deal with it.

Regards,

Paul
Thanks for the interesting counter-points you have made so far. I just want to let you know that I have no problem with "sport" arts as opposed to "traditional" arts. I am also not attacking you or anyone else doing sport arts.

I think you might have missed the point of my posts so far, my point was the old "make him play your game etc..." strategy and it certainly never was about whether sport arts are better than traditional or visa versa.

I am starting out in what I hope will be a long and interesting Judo career to compliment my Aikido. I am looking forward to entering tourneys and competing. Clearly I cannot possibly truly believe that sport arts are in any way deficient as martial arts when I am doing one myself.

As for your little newsflash there: I am not interested enough nor invested enough in the "image" or public perception of Aikido to realy care whether people like or dislike what I do. I am also (surprisingly) not trying to "convert" you to our ways, I am merely pointing out where you seem to misunderstand what I typed.

paw
08-27-2003, 10:12 AM
Wynand,

With all due respect,


I think you might have missed the point of my posts so far, my point was the old "make him play your game etc..." strategy and it certainly never was about whether sport arts are better than traditional or visa versa.
If you had read the articles on the url I posted, you would know that I did understand your point, and that I was subtly questioning it's validity. (Which I gather is based on your determination of aikido as a trapping art)
As for your little newsflash there: I am not interested enough nor invested enough in the "image" or public perception of Aikido to realy care whether people like or dislike what I do.

Really? Didn't keep you from posting on the topic and making statements that could be considered less than flattering remarks about competitions that you've not participated in.

Regards,

Paul

happysod
08-27-2003, 11:14 AM
Thanks Jorgen, it was actually quite interesting to surf their forums. But as nearly every martial art came in for some stick and their forum actively throve on flaming I'd personally not bother responding. The originally poster did have a point with the uke he met, but you meet this in any dojo/gym/sport - the I'm here to show what I know rather than the I'm here to learn type (even - esp- between aikido "styles"). If he'd actually went to an aikido dojo and found nothing even of interest, his point of view might have had more weight for me.

Paul, nice article, but I've got to ask how long you can remain a coach in this style? The reason I ask is the one of the philosophy points where you must be willing to take on all new-comers to the gym without question - I can just see this getting rather brutal. Hopefully it is with some ground rules in place? (It was good to see that they didn't stress "win against every newcomer" :D )

paw
08-27-2003, 12:20 PM
Ian,

First, I don't train with any of the SBG guys or their affiliates. I do like a great deal of their philosophy and training methods. So, you'll have to take my answers with a grain of salt.
Paul, nice article, but I've got to ask how long you can remain a coach in this style?
Indefinately.
The reason I ask is the one of the philosophy points where you must be willing to take on all new-comers to the gym without question - I can just see this getting rather brutal. Hopefully it is with some ground rules in place?
I'm sure there are some guidelines that both parties are expected to follow. Anyway, the point behind the philosophy is that one is willing, not that one will "win". So the coach is not exempt from the performance standard that the students are expected to maintain. I presume this eliminates the "cult of personality" and appeal to positional authority that can happen when an instructor doesn't have to interact with their students during dynamic drills or randori.

Regards,

Paul

Ron Tisdale
08-27-2003, 12:22 PM
I believe Dave said;
it is real; there can be no such thing as a satisfactory draw or educational loss; losing means a very real possibility of serious injury and - while statistically extremely unlikely - death.
Just for the sake of arguement...isn't there another choice, to Survive?

What about not fighting...using the framework of your story, just evade and disengage, run away? By the way, I liked the story...I've heard that "next..." used more than once by more than one aikidoka. :)

Ron

drDalek
08-27-2003, 03:18 PM
If you had read the articles on the url I posted, you would know that I did understand your point, and that I was subtly questioning it's validity. (Which I gather is based on your determination of aikido as a trapping art)

Really? Didn't keep you from posting on the topic and making statements that could be considered less than flattering remarks about competitions that you've not participated in.
I still dont care about the view others have of Aikido but you seem to be attacking me personally now. I kinda like that, it means that I am influencing you, probably getting you all riled up, across possibly thousands of kilometers, spanning time, culture and points of view.

Anyway, putting aside my glee at the above thought for a moment, Aikido is a trapping art purely by logical elimination. Its not a striking art and it certainly bears no resemblance to the kind of entries, strategies and distancing used in grappling so it can only be a trapping art.

It certainly is not wing chun though and you seem to think it is. Maybe you should go read your mentor's advertising again, you'll see he is talking about wing chun concepts in his little tirade against trapping.

We certainly seem to be talking past each other though, I am not trying to sell my services as an instructor and I can clearly see what motivated the original poster of the "I hate Aikido" thread on their forum, I already expressed my views on what I felt was wrong with his attitude, if you dont feel like reading it again,

ahem,

Deal with it.;)

paw
08-27-2003, 03:41 PM
I still dont care about the view others have of Aikido but you seem to be attacking me personally now. I kinda like that, it means that I am influencing you, probably getting you all riled up, across possibly thousands of kilometers, spanning time, culture and points of view.

LOL! Everyone should have a dream..... But seriously, where do you feel you were personally attacked? If it hurt that much, I'll gladly apologize.
Aikido is a trapping art purely by logical elimination.

An art that seeks to throw and pin and uses joint locks is a trapping art? You must have a very unique definition of trapping.
Its not a striking art and it certainly bears no resemblance to the kind of entries, strategies and distancing used in grappling

Hmm.... Looks a lot like judo to me, but what do I know?
Maybe you should go read your mentor's advertising again, you'll see he is talking about wing chun concepts in his little tirade against trapping.

LOL! Wing chun is never mentioned, nor is Paul Sharp my mentor. That would be two more things you're wrong about.

But thanks for the laughs....

Best of luck in Judo,

Paul

shihonage
08-27-2003, 05:06 PM
I have sat on top of mount Everest for 20 years, meditating on this thread.

Finally, enlightement came upon me, and I have descended from the heavens to share it with you.

Here it i... oh no ! They found me ! I don't know HOW but they FOUND ME !!

The snowmen are coming ! THE SNOWMEN ARE COMING !!! Agghddfsfjslkj (crunch) (splat)

akiy
08-27-2003, 05:21 PM
The snowmen are coming ! THE SNOWMEN ARE COMING !!! Agghddfsfjslkj (crunch) (splat)
It seems that the snowmen were mixed martial arts experts...

-- Jun

aiki_what
08-27-2003, 09:15 PM
Ahhh....see the snowmen know. A steel cage death match between Aikodoka, Judoka, MMA participants and yeti is the only way to resolve the issue.

L. Camejo
08-27-2003, 09:49 PM
My money is on the Yeti.

The MMA-ist would try to shoot - and get stepped on.:)

The Judoka would try to break balance - and get stepped on.:)

The Aikidoka would keep ma ai and try to apply kotegaeshi to the Yeti's foot - and get stepped on.:)

Then the Yeti gets his own website and gets a host of groupies who think Yeti-jutsu is the best style and start a forum on how they hate MMA, Judo and Aikido and anyone who does it :p.

I see a trend developing here.

L.C.:ai::ki:

PeterR
08-27-2003, 10:03 PM
Then the Yeti gets his own website and gets a host of groupies who think Yeti-jutsu is the best style and start a forum on how they hate MMA, Judo and Aikido and anyone who does it :p.

I see a trend developing here.
Sure but then Larry invites the Yeti to Trinidad for a challenge match.

Yeti dies of heat frustration.

Larry steps on Yeti.

Larry gets the groupies. :p

akiy
08-27-2003, 10:31 PM
Then the Yeti gets his own website and gets a host of groupies who think Yeti-jutsu is the best style and start a forum on how they hate MMA, Judo and Aikido and anyone who does it :p.
Dang it. YetiWeb.com is already taken.

-- Jun

ryujin
09-03-2003, 03:30 AM
I read the thread and found it all quite amusing. Anyway, how can anyone take that person seriously when he can't even spell randori. He spelled it wrong at least twice, two different ways. :D

bca333
09-25-2003, 10:23 AM
I really didn't want to read the whole thread, but I couldn't stop myself. When I clicked on several of their profiles, I realized that my dog tags have been around longer than most of Sherdog's posters. So I'm not really bothered by their comments based on their vast experience in life, let alone martial arts.

And yes, once I got past the poor grammar, logic, and general vulgarity, I wound up examining how I train...but I will happily continue with Aikido.

If they REALLY want to test how tough they are, they can come to work for my employer and we'll be happy to send them to Iraq or wherever we may go next...sigh...it's time for a lot of us to come back home and play with our own kids anyway.

Regards, Brad

tariqhussain
09-19-2006, 08:13 AM
i agree

tariqhussain
09-19-2006, 08:22 AM
Just wondering why you guys study Aikido

Neil Mick
09-19-2006, 01:32 PM
Just wondering why you guys study Aikido

Because, it's there. :cool:

Ron Tisdale
09-19-2006, 01:39 PM
Because we like getting stepped on by Yeti...

:)

Roman Kremianski
09-19-2006, 03:34 PM
Because some dojos offer free ice cream to members.

Well...maybe. But they should.

Setka
09-20-2006, 02:35 AM
Because I get to throw around men. :p

(just kidding :cool: )

xuzen
09-20-2006, 03:34 AM
Because I am sadistic and I like to inflict pain on people's wrist?

Boon.

dps
09-20-2006, 05:14 AM
It is cheaper than going to a chiropractor.

I like the ice cream idea. :)

Bridge
09-20-2006, 07:09 AM
Dang it. YetiWeb.com is already taken.

-- Jun

Besides, it looks ike the yeti's chosen art is tae kwon do...

http://www.yetitkd.com/ArtAndApparel/Definition.jpg

Bronson
09-21-2006, 02:44 AM
Because some dojos offer free ice cream to members.

We keep a freezer full of Pop-Ice

Bronson