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Steven Tame
08-20-2003, 09:38 AM
Today I (5'7") was paired with a very tall(7')Uke for Irimi nage. I had real problems executing the technique properly. Do any more experienced people have any tips?

Eric Joyce
08-20-2003, 09:54 AM
Wow!! 7 feet huh? I never had anyone quite that tall before. The tallest was 6'5"and I am 5'11". But when I did irimi nage on him, I had to adjust a bit. The technique was shomen irimi nage, and I had to really cut down on his attacking hand to get him to bend over and off balance him. Then I was able to put my hand on his neck and control him. It is a challenge though, but not impossible. Good question.

Martin L
08-20-2003, 09:56 AM
You just need to make sure that your kuzushi is effective enough to drop uke's head to a manageable height.

Probably also worth considering that some techniques are always going to be more difficult against certain body shapes and sizes.

Ah, just realised that what I refer to as irimi nage is different to what others call it. If you mean a straight drive through the head (which I'd call shomen ate), then as in my last point, if they are too tall then you may just have to accept that it won't work.

akiy
08-20-2003, 10:20 AM
So, how would folks here do iriminage from hanmi handachi? I'd have to imagine the same sort of "tactics" would work for very tall people during standing techniques.

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 10:28 AM
Good question Jun. I can't say I've seen iriminage done from hanmi handachi much...I've done it once or twice to demonstrate certain things to other students though (prefaced with "I'm not sure this is going to work, but...").

Can you describe how you do it?

Thanks,

Ron

akiy
08-20-2003, 10:49 AM
Hi Ron,

The most common way I've seen it done here is for nage to enter deeply behind uke, nage grasps uke's hips and applies kuzushi to uke's back balance point while nage does tenkan. This often brings uke pretty much down onto the ground and the rest of iriminage can proceed from there.

I personally find trying to bring uke down by their arm (both in tachiwaza and hanmi handachi) to be a bit too unwieldy for my tastes; it feels, to me at least, as though I'm just affecting uke's top half of the body and not the lower half. For me, if kuzushi is applied well in any technique, it's the lower half of uke's body that gets affected...

In any case, do other folks have thoughts on good ways to do iriminage on tall people?

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 10:59 AM
Thanks Jun,

That back balance point has good results. I tend to use the arm too much, and find the same problems you mentioned. I'm trying to control the hips much more now...Chiba Sensei from the yoshinkan has some neat exercises that don't use the arm or the back balance point, but still "float" the hips forward, taking uke's balance very effectively. It requires that the arm doing the iriminage use a precise angle relative to uke, and that you "turn your elbow joint over", not just your hand. The problem with this method and tall people, is getting them where you can place your arm in the first place...

Ron

akiy
08-20-2003, 11:13 AM
Hi Ron,

Yes, there are many great ways to use balance points other than the back one in iriminage. I just find that, for me at this point, using the other ones during hanmi handachi iriminage is difficult.

The main instructor at our dojo often uses the front balance point for during standing iriminage. He first applies a bit of a torque through uke's body through the arm by affecting uke's elbow into uke's centerline. This seems to affect uke's balance by taking them slightly to their front cross-ways balance point. Then, the other hand goes behind uke's neck and goes through to the other front balance point. This done during tenkan will often lead uke's center down to the ground. Words (especially mine!) don't do justice to what actually goes on, of course!

In any case, I may be in Philadelphia in October for a seminar at the Doshinkan dojo. Maybe I'll see you then?

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 11:17 AM
Sorry, that should have been Chida not Chiba...two different people.

RT

jxa127
08-20-2003, 11:19 AM
Hi Jun, Ron, Martin, Eric, and Steven!

We do shomen uchi irimi nage in suwari waza, hamni handachi, and standing. In all three cases, the principles are the same.

The key thing (for us) is to enter deeply going almost straight ahead, but off to the side of the strike. We go in with both arms raised as in shomen uchi ikkyo undo. After entering, we tenkan and put one hand on the back of uke's neck, and the other hand on the crook of his elbow. We then step back and drop uke back and to the side of his strike into his back empty spot. This off-balancing can be very effective -- bringin uke to the point where he needs to put at least one hand on the mat to keep from face planting. The rest of the technique proceeds from there.

This works for hamni handachi too. One of the reasons I think it works is that uke must sink or bend a bit in order to strike nage when nages is sitting seiza. This brings uke down to nage's level -- or at least closer to nage's level.

Just some thoughts, but I'm kinda surprised that irimi nage from hamni handachi is seen as rare or exceptional.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 11:20 AM
Jun, Please Come! I'm already signed up, and would love to meet and train with you (though if you are your teacher's uke, you will probably be quite busy:)).

I'm dealing with a knee injury now, and really hope to have it resolved by october. If not I'll be there watching if not on the mat. Wish me luck, and I really hope to be able to train with you!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 11:26 AM
Hi Drew,

I just haven't seen it much in yoshinkan, doesn't mean it isn't there, or in other places. I'm still looking for text illustrations that answer the first poster's question though...the back balance point Jun mentioned seems a good answer, but I'm not sure how what you posted works against a much taller person. Can you describe the entry more? Or perhaps I'm just temporarily stuck on the direct entry method often used in the yoshinkan...

Ron

akiy
08-20-2003, 11:38 AM
Jun, Please Come! I'm already signed up, and would love to meet and train with you
Thanks, Ron! I'll do my best to be there. It sounds like an interesting seminar and should be a lot of fun.

I'll probably buy the airline tickets some time soon. I'm looking into getting tickets for the Aiki Expo today...

-- Jun

jxa127
08-20-2003, 11:55 AM
Ron,

I wish I could describe it better. I started to do a step-by-step, but it's something that really needs to be felt.

You met Richard at the seminar with Ellis this past winter. He's the tall, skinny guy from our dojo with the pony tail. His shoulders are at my eye level, but we've all thrown Richard with irimi nage from hamni handachi.

Anyway, I'm sure that there's other ways of doing the technique, and Jun's suggestion sounds interesting -- though I'm having a hard time picturing it.

I hope your knee feels better soon.

Regards,

-Drew

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 12:04 PM
Thanks Drew (it sucks getting old). The worst part is I get technical stuff occationally (like in this conversation) that I want to try out, and now I can't!

Ron (whimper whimper whine) Tisdale

L. Camejo
08-20-2003, 02:15 PM
The key thing (for us) is to enter deeply going almost straight ahead, but off to the side of the strike. We go in with both arms raised as in shomen uchi ikkyo undo. After entering, we tenkan and put one hand on the back of uke's neck, and the other hand on the crook of his elbow. We then step back and drop uke back and to the side of his strike into his back empty spot. This off-balancing can be very effective -- bringin uke to the point where he needs to put at least one hand on the mat to keep from face planting. The rest of the technique proceeds from there.
Great point Drew. This is one I use as well to apply iriminage from both standing and hanza handachi.

Just to add something regarding the use of the forward arm. If Tori (Nage) places a palm over the leading arm (regardless of attack) and plants that unbendable arm to his own hip while sinking (causing the entire body of Tori to be linked to the leading arm of uke to effect balance break while moving backwards and downwards), this will create enough downward and forward movement of uke to allow Tori to take the side of uke's head (not shoulder or collar) and plant that to his own shoulder while turning.

What this does is change the approach to the kuzushi from one of momentum to one of using body weight and timing to pull uke's arm in a downward, outward spiral into Tori. Because of the deep sinking and turning (following Drew's outline above), Uke is forced to bend forwards deeply (almost crashing into the mat), at which point it is much easier to take control of the head. And where the head goes the body follows. :)

Very hard to explain, will try to get some video to back it up later.

The key is to cause a deep enough initial balance break based on correct timing and sinking of one's hips. This "brings them to your level" as I like to say.:)

Arigato Gozaimasu

L.C.:ai::ki:

SeiserL
08-20-2003, 03:51 PM
I have to respond here. My Sensei is 5' and I am 6'4". He has not problems with Irimi. When he redirects, he "knuckle drags" me to get my head low. Throws my momentum and balance off.

Yann Golanski
08-21-2003, 03:16 AM
I am about 180cm (6 feet?) to my first sensei's ``5 feet and a little bit ''. She did an irimi nage on me and I went flying across the mat. All she did was a good balance breaker (kuzushi) and then move her body.

One of the best randori/kakagi geiko that I have seen was between two shodans at my club. One was a thin and petite woman and the other was a huge guy. He was about easily five times the size of her. However, in free play she was throwing him effortlessly and always looked somewhat shocked by it. She had to reply on her technique and skill which was pretty good.

Sure, it's not easy but you do get there in the end.

Personally, I think that this is where Aikido shows its magic. Whatever your size you can thrown someone who is towering over you. All you need is timing, balance breaking and body movement... Yeah, easy. In about 30 years I'll get there.

Paul Kerr
08-21-2003, 05:37 AM
There are 2 ways that I've been shown that deal specifically with a tall uke in iriminage.

After the initial entry you can 1) "buckle" uke through his shoulders/knees towards the back balance point or 2) enter more deeply in, creating more distance between yourself and uke to create the kuzushi.

I'm sure there are loads of other ways, but these two are the ones that I'm used to doing most.

Steven Tame
08-21-2003, 10:22 AM
Wow I really didn't expect to see so many replies in just 1 day.

I had always heard that I doesn't matter about size in Aikido but I'm not yet good enough to put it in to practice.

I'm really dreading getting a tall Uke for my 5th kyuu test in 2 weeks time

ian
08-21-2003, 03:12 PM
I think without a sincere attack it is difficult. However from something like shomen uchi actually INCREASING the distance at the correct moment can have an effect ( a bit like the way we would cut someone down for kaiten-nage), this over-extension of uke can then be directed in a wide low circle which permits a small uke to shift the uke's centre of gravity around for the throw. Often trying to pull or force the person down has the opposite of the desired effect. The important thing to remember of course is that we are not standing uke back up when we complete the throw. (It is worth examining Ueshiba with some of his U.S uke)

5'7" Ian

Arieru
09-05-2003, 10:11 AM
I'm really dreading getting a tall Uke for my 5th kyuu test in 2 weeks time
good luck to you on your test.

with you in spirit -

arieru

jgrowney
09-25-2003, 08:37 AM
Steve,

Two thoughts.

1. How about instead of pushing on uke's back, push the inside hip (forward) while reaching up and pushing the outside shoulder in the opposite direction? Key is to keep him in front of you (not directly in front though). If you enter too deeply uke ends up at your side where you have no power. This has the effect of him turning and bending backwards to the point where you could easily step in for irimi nage or a rear choke.

2. Break posture by bringing uke forward, in and down, then once his head is at an appropriate level reversing it. Yin & Yang in every technique right?

Jim

Nafis Zahir
09-25-2003, 09:40 AM
Most of what I've read is very good. But the main thing to always remember is to drop your center! Even if you're already shorter than the person, you should still drop your center. But remember, once you take the person around and they begin to recover and try to regain their balance, keep your center down and don't come up to do the throw. This way the uke's spine stays misaligned and you can throw anyone.

Nafis

bolaji olayinka
10-18-2003, 05:01 AM
someone should tell me about all these