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drDalek
08-16-2003, 04:46 PM
Aikido's concept of Atemi is pretty open ended and I like to think that I can assimilate whatever striking techniques which seem usefull from other arts.

Example: Jeet Kun Do has the concept of the intercepting kick, whereby the JKD practitioner kicks at the opponents advancing leg to interrupt his attack. This seems usefull and I would probably use it to generate some distance between myself and an attacker but its not exactly Aikido is it?

Do you think that we as responsible martial artists (responsible to ourselves and those we need to protect) should build toolkits of usefull techniques for ourselves, or should we stick with the core techniques taught to us in Aikido?

PhilJ
08-16-2003, 07:31 PM
I don't see anything wrong with pulling in other things. The question that needs to be answered once you do, is, "Is it still aikido?"

In our classes, we often pull in tidbits from daitoryu and some bjj (pin techniques mostly). I find this to be very interesting, so long as the principles of aikido are followed. For example, a nice painless pin, with pain only if uke struggles, is nice to tinker with; choking uke into submission doesn't seem to fly too well with me.

The core of techniques is just that -- a core -- and can be built upon. So I'd say, if you stick to the principles, why not? :)

*Phil

SeiserL
08-16-2003, 09:05 PM
IMHO, and I still train in FMA/JKD, it is often best not to assimilate or intregrate other systems until you have a firm base. Keep them separate and let them assimilate into each other through the training.

Kensai
08-17-2003, 05:59 AM
I recently took Judo, only for 7 months or so. However my Sensei advised me to stop doing it, the style of Judo I was doing is more or less Olympic. So lots of physical force which he felt would affect my Aikido, so alas it had to go.

However, I will still look into other styles that are based on relaxation and similar principles to Aikido. Possibly venture into CMA's or a good BJJ gym. But there are lots of possibilites out there.

bob_stra
08-17-2003, 11:28 AM
Aikido's concept of Atemi is pretty open ended and I like to think that I can assimilate whatever striking techniques which seem usefull from other arts.
"If you know what you're doing, you can do what you want" - Moshe Feldenkrais

PS: The intercepting kick thing from JKD. My gut tells me that might be based on the idea of stop hitting from boxing. Your're proposing integrating integration ;-)

Jorx
08-17-2003, 01:57 PM
That has often come to my mind.

And I think yes we can do it.

And that weather it is Aikido or not is not really the question.

My sensei often shows us the possibilities that you get from one movement or another - for example after the irimi of ikkiyo omote goes into a sambo armlock or WingTsun style chainpunching or just kicks the uke to the belly or to the knee.

(Of course he mostly doesn't DO those things as it would be very painful to the uke but just shows possibilities or slaps a little)

He says that "it is not Aikido, but you may find it useful in some situations on the street"

And he always stresses that as there are almost endless variations what I might do within Aikido (I may finish the ikkyo, do a reverse kokyo, a koshi etc etc depending on situation) I may also choose to cross the borders of Aikido (if such things do exist)

BUT coming to the stopkick - which is originated from Wing Chun actually. To do a good stopkick your body weight must be at least 80% on the back foot. And that may greatly disturb your Aikido - that stance is very different from what most aikidoka do. So you may get confused. And aikido's opne concept of atemi usually excludes kicks because of all that (+the kicks are unworthy and legs are for standing for a true samurai thing)

Yet - why not stopkick, then irimi then do a (Aikido) technique. If your footwork is good and you maintain balance - why not?

But why not just irimi;)?

It all depends on you and the circumstances.

Chris Raywood
08-17-2003, 10:38 PM
Wynand,

I would pay carefull attention to the wisdom that Bob Strahinjevich puts forth. If you know what you're doing you can distil from any art whatever you deem appropriate (both morally and physically) to suit your needs.

However, I might caution you in combining new found wisdom with core techniques. For example, if you execute an atemi technique, and break your attackers balance in a direction that you do not want him to go, you may find the core technique you were depending on (or gravitating to) in response to an attack may not work for you. I believe this may be the thinking behind a sensei's advice in "mixing" arts (as Chris Gee described) to any beginning student. Good Luck!

With best regards,

Chris Raywood

Budd
08-18-2003, 07:41 AM
I tend to look at this in a couple of ways. If you already have a base in another art or are thinking in terms of competition and cross-training, aikido is a great complement for learning body positioning, movement and footwork while on your feet and the off-balancing and joint-locking principles will serve you well in your ground game (not that I'm a strong exponent of altercations going to the ground -- if you've reached that point, then you're in a committed fight and you have a lot less options).

I had a background in wrestling, judo and karate before studying aikido and found that several things I had learned . . I had to unlearn in order to get more in line with aiki principles -- which can be frustrating. So, there are pitfalls, but the rewards of being more well-rounded are worthwhile, in my opinion. Most of the senior students at the dojo I'm at now were karateka or judoka at one time or another.

sanosuke
08-18-2003, 10:28 PM
i'm not against cross training or taking elements from other arts to combine into aikido, but if you do this please don't forget the core purpose of aikido, harmony. Please make sure that whatever techniques you took is to harmonize yourself with your partner, notoffending or fighting them instead.

Bronson
08-18-2003, 10:35 PM
Check out the videos in the multimedia section of this site (http://bilang.com/). I want to incorporate some of that into aikido :rolleyes:

Bronson

willy_lee
08-25-2003, 03:30 PM
PS: The intercepting kick thing from JKD. My gut tells me that might be based on the idea of stop hitting from boxing. Your're proposing integrating integration ;-)
or from fencing -- I'd imagine that if anything, boxing stole this from fencing. :)

=wl

SeiserL
08-25-2003, 03:54 PM
The intercepting kick idea, as explained to me by Ted Lucaylucay many years ago, was more from Wing Chun and Escrima. While on the one hand (or leg) it intecepts and deflects the strike (WC), it also destroys the leg by attacking it (FMA).

IMHO, some of the flow drills of WC/FMA/JKD are excellent ways to bridge the gap, enter, and blend with an attack and turn it into an Aikido waza.

willy_lee
08-25-2003, 05:59 PM
The intercepting kick idea, as explained to me by Ted Lucaylucay many years ago, was more from Wing Chun and Escrima.
ok, makes sense. I was just remembering that Bruce took a lot of stuff from boxing and fencing when putting together JKD, thought it might come from that.
IMHO, some of the flow drills of WC/FMA/JKD are excellent ways to bridge the gap, enter, and blend with an attack and turn it into an Aikido waza.
From the little FMA I've done, I couldn't agree more.

I think flow drills are great in general. I wish aikido had them. I think they are a great way to bridge the gap between technique-oriented training and more dynamic, chaotic training.

Has anyone experimented with creating aikido flow drills? I remember reading some stuff on George Ledyard's site about putting together integrated groups of techniques that would flow between each other for his DT classes. Similar idea.

=wl

Bronson
08-25-2003, 09:13 PM
Has anyone experimented with creating aikido flow drills?

Could you please describe what you mean by a flow drill?

Bronson

PhilJ
08-26-2003, 01:11 AM
Willy,

I missed out on those in Seidokan, but have started out doing that in some of our randori/jiyuwaza classes.

Is this what you mean? Uke attacks, nage defends, uke gets up and attacks again immediately, nage defends... no prescribed techniques, possibly 2 ukes to save energy...? (In a drill, possibly prescribed attacks or techniques)

I borrowed the idea from some videos I've seen, especially ones like Oyo Henka (Saotome).

That kind of drill is very interesting and challenging for all ranks of students.

*Phil

Bronson
08-26-2003, 09:15 AM
Is this what you mean? Uke attacks, nage defends, uke gets up and attacks again immediately, nage defends... no prescribed techniques, possibly 2 ukes to save energy...? (In a drill, possibly prescribed attacks or techniques)...I missed out on those in Seidokan

Hey now, don't go bashing an entire style because your dojo didn't do something...just kidding :D

Seriously though we do stuff like that in our Seidokan dojo. I guess it comes down to instructor preference/background.

I was wondering if the flow drills went anything like the exercise we do called linking techniques. They are basically a kata of attempted reversals with reversals with reversals with reversals etc. leading to a throw or pin. We have a couple that we'll do (not nearly enough in my opinion). I believe that our sensei learned them from Tri Thang Dang Sensei. Lynn, do you guys do anything similar, or am I waaaay off base with what I think a flow drill is?

Bronson

willy_lee
08-26-2003, 12:32 PM
I was wondering if the flow drills went anything like the exercise we do called linking techniques. They are basically a kata of attempted reversals with reversals with reversals with reversals etc. leading to a throw or pin.
That sounds basically similar to what I've done in my kali class. We also add "isolations" -- basically, take a single step of the drill/kata and do permutations on it -- reasons why A does this because B does that, and if B didn't do that A could do this, etc., and variations for different ranges and purposes (the disarm variation; the atemi-full variation; the reversal variation; the I-have-a-weapon-too variation; the on-the-ground variation). Then, the fun part: doing the steps out of order, backwards, reversed, on the other side. Once your brain is fried enough, then we go into semi-free play: feeder can do any of steps 1, 3, 5, receiver has to do correct response. Then someone else calls out different step numbers and feeder does those. Or feeder's choice. Then allow receiver to switch mid-flow and become the feeder, by disarming feeder or drawing own weapon. Throw in steps from other drills. Then everyone gets confused :).

It's great fun. And like I said, I think it's a good way to go from a very structured way of training into a very chaotic way.

=wl

paw
08-26-2003, 12:40 PM
And like I said, I think it's a good way to go from a very structured way of training into a very chaotic way.

Seems overly complex. Learn a technique, then learn a kata, then move into dynamic methods by mixing up the kata until there is no kata. Why have the kata?

Why not learn a technique, then go dynamic?

Regards,

Paul

Bronson
08-26-2003, 01:04 PM
Why not learn a technique, then go dynamic?

I've been waiting for the chance to use this :D
Under circumstances of full resistance - form can not be taught. Without understanding form - full resistance can't be dealt with. Peter Rehse

Actually the way it was described did sound a bit complex/confusing but I bet it's still a lot of fun and easier to understand when actually doing it.

Bronson

opherdonchin
08-26-2003, 02:14 PM
I was wondering if the flow drills went anything like the exercise we do called linking techniques. They are basically a kata of attempted reversals with reversals with reversals with reversals etc. leading to a throw or pin.I've tought classes like this a couple of time. It actually is surprisingly rewarding for beginners who seem to find the linkage gives them a sense of understanding that is harder to get with a string of techniques that often strike them as totally disconnected form each other.

Of course, the paired weapons kata that are the heart of ASU weapons work are basically linkage/reversal drills, also.

willy_lee
08-26-2003, 04:39 PM
Seems overly complex.

Why not learn a technique, then go dynamic?
I'm sure you've seen this issue debated over and over again wrt "live" training, SBG, etc. I'm sure I won't say anything new about it.

Might be overly complex. Probably is. I like it though; it's fun; it's neat to learn what flows into what, especially when it's non-obvious stuff that would take me a long time to see for myself. Probably most relevantly, it's a method that gets people close to "live" that maybe is/feels _safer_ than going straight into "live".

Another thing; for me it's not learning the "techniques" that I get from the patterns. It seems to me that the techniques themselves are pretty simple and can be learned in about 10 minutes (okay, maybe the aikido ones a bit more -- doing them well of course just takes a lot of time and practice). The flow drill teaches me how things flow into another -- that's the bridge I'm talking about.

=wl

willy_lee
08-26-2003, 04:44 PM
I've tought classes like this a couple of time. It actually is surprisingly rewarding for beginners who seem to find the linkage gives them a sense of understanding that is harder to get with a string of techniques that often strike them as totally disconnected form each other.
Exactly.
Of course, the paired weapons kata that are the heart of ASU weapons work are basically linkage/reversal drills, also.
The kali stuff I was describing is weapons based. I've often thought it seems more akin to descriptions I've read of koryu weapons training than ordinary aikido training. Not that I have any experience with koryu, nor with ASU weapons.

=wl

paw
08-27-2003, 06:22 AM
Willy,
it's neat to learn what flows into what, especially when it's non-obvious stuff that would take me a long time to see for myself.

Honestly, I'm not so sure "flow" exists in an artifical pattern. Even if it does, the student would be conditioning to respond to a pattern that may or may not exist outside of training (personally, I'm betting on "may not").

But if you like it, you like it.

What's the best exercise routine? The one you'll actually do.

Regards,

Paul

opherdonchin
08-27-2003, 09:16 AM
Not that I have any experience with koryu, nor with ASU weapons.You can find videos of the sword (http://www.aiki.com/store/spotlights.asp?results=search&searchtext=the+sword+of+aikido&Search=Submit), jo (http://www.aiki.com/store/spotlights.asp?results=search&searchtext=the+staff+of+aikido&Search=Submit), sword vs. jo (http://www.bujindesign.com/video.html), and two sword (http://www.aiki.com/store/spotlights.asp?results=search&searchtext=two+swords&Search=Submit) katas at Aikido Today's store (http://www.aiki.com/store/default.asp) and the Bujin website (http://www.bujindesign.com) that show the ASU sword and jo styles very nicely.

I would say that the idea of these katas is that 'flow' develops when you have access to a number of different patterns, so that at any given time you can branch off to whichever pattern feels most appropriate at the time. I suppose that's not so different from the idea behind kata (paired or individual) in all martial arts.

I think, also, that kata (paired or individual) are meant to capture some of the tactical and strategic ideas that connect different techniques. They emphasize that certain moves actually only allow a certain collection of counters, which, in turn, each allows a certain collection of responses. It's like chess openings: the number of possibilities may be large but it is certainly not infinite. Having practiced the moves that make the most sense can really help.

ian
08-27-2003, 11:39 AM
I think examining other martial arts is an important way of furthing your understanding of your own martial art. However if you don't have a good grasp of your own martial art you can't really understand the relationships.

Personally I have examined the similarity of many atemi's which Saito (and Ueshiba) shows with chinese kung-fu styles.

Ian

SeiserL
08-27-2003, 04:25 PM
IMHO, one way to learn flow is prearranged kata. Yes, in Tenshinkai (Phong Sensei is Tri Sensei's brother) we do some kata. We also do a lot of combinations where resistance at one point leads to another waza. Lots of variations. We also train in counters. Every so often we do "flow" drills, like countering Ikkyu with another Ikkyu which is countered by another Ikkyu ... .

To lead in with a WC/FMA/JKD "flow" drill would be more like being attacked and deflecting a series of strikes until you can just flow into the waza. Seagal did this in one scene in Foriegner where he blocks a left and then a right and then stepped into an Irimi.

Point of note, the earlier mentioned "stop hit" is a simple technqiue where you begin a punch, stop in mid strike, then continue from there. It really breaks the rhythm of the attack.

Yes, JKD took a lot from boxing and fencing. Lee took from everywhere. Its a pretty complete systems, but more importantly its a way of thinking and training. Like Aikido, the principles can look somewhat different from each person's ability and expression.

My hunch is we will see some of this (not WC/FMA/JKD)at the Expo this year, since Pranin Sensei has asked for a return to the martial potential.