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C. Emerson
08-14-2003, 09:25 AM
What is the difference between Daito ryu Aikijujutsu or just Aikijujutsu or all of the different ones?

Ron Tisdale
08-14-2003, 09:41 AM
Daito ryu is the only art I know of that has a specific curriculm that references aiki -- as in aiki no jutsu. A specific set of techniques that is intended to teach a specific set of principles relating to the use of aiki in technique.

I have seen other arts claiming the teaching of aikijujutsu...almost every single one teaches some varient of what they consider "hard" aikido, or aikido with hard throws, atemi, chokes, etc. Almost every single one of them has no link whatsoever to daito ryu. A few have tenuous links at best.

From my limited exposure to Daito ryu, I'd say "hard" technique is **not** what sets it apart from aikido (strong jujutsu may be a part of what is taught, or not). Taking the balance at first contact, the use of subtle or not so subtle invasive aiki, a specific type of atemi (not warmed over karate or chinese style striking), and strong linear evasion leading to close maai in a superiour position; in my experience, these things seem to denote a strong daito ryu influence.

Some notable exceptions would be Toby Threadgill's Shindo Yoshin ryu and Don Angier's art.

My opinion only,

Ron

PeterR
08-14-2003, 07:14 PM
I have seen other arts claiming the teaching of aikijujutsu...almost every single one teaches some varient of what they consider "hard" aikido, or aikido with hard throws, atemi, chokes, etc. Almost every single one of them has no link whatsoever to daito ryu. A few have tenuous links at best.
One of my dojo regulars has a yondan in Shodokan Aikido and now trains in Daito Ryu in Kobe (an hour by bullet train from his home). He was training in Daito ryu in Tokyo before that teacher died.

His comment was that Daito-ryu is softer than Shodokan Aikido but generally the waza are the same.

Always interesting.

L. Camejo
08-14-2003, 08:30 PM
Taking the balance at first contact, the use of subtle or not so subtle invasive aiki, a specific type of atemi (not warmed over karate or chinese style striking), and strong linear evasion leading to close maai in a superiour position; in my experience, these things seem to denote a strong daito ryu influence.
Ron, I have to admit your post intrigued me very much.

When reading the description you gave I honestly thought that you were describing the Shodokan Aikido we do. The two systems are almost identical from what you give as indicators of strong Daito Ryu influence. Very interesting.

On the other hand, I have also had some experience with Aikijujutsu (not sure if it were Daito Ryu or something else). This was around the same time I started Aikido. A major difference to me was the tendency to rely on devastating atemi on the initiation of contact.

For example, in Shodokan we may do shomen ate to create an opportunity for kuzushi (without actually striking uke) and use that kuzushi to apply kotegaeshi. The Aikijujutsu variant of that (in my experience) was to use shomen ate to pretty much bloody the attacker's face (create as much damage as quickly as possible were the words the instructor used) by striking the centre of the face with the palm and then use kotegaeshi in a very direct way which would usually end in a pin taken very close to the point of dislocation.

Needless to say I stuck with the Aikido which gave me more options than destroying my partner.:) I will admit however that this is from a style of "Aikijujutsu" that may not have had anything to do with Daito Ryu. As I progressed in Aikido I found that those Aikijujutsu techniques were what I got when I applied the Shodokan training with the intent of doing grievious bodily harm.

Having said that though, I have been exposed to actual Daito Ryu exponents whose techs often appear softer than what we do in Shodokan, and I realise now that like Aikido, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu can be manifested in many many ways and can appear at both ends of the "hard" or "soft" spectrum. Depending on the dojo you encounter there may be no difference at all, besides the picture of the person on the shomen :).

Just my 2 cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Mark Jakabcsin
08-15-2003, 05:50 AM
"When reading the description you gave I honestly thought that you were describing the Shodokan Aikido we do. The two systems are almost identical from what you give as indicators of strong Daito Ryu influence. Very interesting."

Remember Tomiki's early certificates from Ueshiba were in Daito-ryu. Also remember that in the late 20's when Tomiki did his most intensive training with Ueshiba, Ueshiba hadn't begun his transformation towards Aikido, but was teaching Daito-ryu. The transformation towards Aikido began more in the mid 30's, when Tomiki, I believe, was in Korea and hence not affected by many/most of these changes.

I believe Tomiki continued to teach what he had learned in the 20's merely adding a teaching method, the orginal 15, in the 50's. Then in the late 50's his (Tomiki's) experimentation began to increase and in the 60's he introduced the 17 Randori techniques and his randori system. Interesting note in his book 10 years earlier he wrote that Aikido would never lend itself well to randori. Obviously he had changed his mind as he experimented and made changes.

Another note, Tomiki taught occassionally at the hombu into the late 60's. I am told by several sources that were there that Kisshomaru frequently argued with Tomiki, telling him that he should not call his art Aikido but should call it Daito-ryu. Remember by this time Aikido was going under a great deal of change and influence by Tohei.

I bring this up merely to point out that it should not be a surprise that folks see a similarity between Tomiki Aikido and Daito-ryu jujutsu, there is a fairly strong link. As far as Tomiki Aikido having aiki no jutsu techniques I would say no. One would have to ask Tomiki Sensei in the next life why that wasn't included. Perhaps he wasn't taught the aiki-no-jutsu techniques. Perhaps he didn't see the value in them. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Who knows, but they aren't there.

Now that doesn't detract from Tomiki Aikido in the least. IMO, one of the greatest things about Tomiki's work is his 'system' for learning/teaching. Very non-Japanese for the era he lived in, very forward thinking.

Ron wrote: "From my limited exposure to Daito ryu, I'd say "hard" technique is **not** what sets it apart from aikido (strong jujutsu may be a part of what is taught, or not). Taking the balance at first contact, the use of subtle or not so subtle invasive aiki, a specific type of atemi (not warmed over karate or chinese style striking), and strong linear evasion leading to close maai in a superiour position; in my experience, these things seem to denote a strong daito ryu influence."

This is a good post, although in my opinion it is a better description of aikijujutsu techniques than it is of aiki no jutsu techniques. Either way good stuff. Take care.

mark

L. Camejo
08-15-2003, 04:49 PM
I bring this up merely to point out that it should not be a surprise that folks see a similarity between Tomiki Aikido and Daito-ryu jujutsu, there is a fairly strong link.
Agreed. It is not a surprise. Just interesting that after almost 80 years of modification and refinement the principles remain the same pretty much. Shows that the more things change the more they stay the same :).
As far as Tomiki Aikido having aiki no jutsu techniques I would say no.
What do you define aiki no jutsu techniques to be exactly? Do they exist at all in Aikido today or are they specific elements of Daito Ryu alone?

Interesting stuff.

L.C.:ai::ki:

PeterR
08-16-2003, 03:02 AM
What do you define aiki no jutsu techniques to be exactly? Do they exist at all in Aikido today or are they specific elements of Daito Ryu alone?
A bit curious about that statement too.

Mark could you give us an idea of your background in both Tomiki's Shodokan system and Daito Ryu.

I understand some Daito Ryu groups differentiate between Aikijujutsu and Aiki no Jutsu but even semantically I don't understand the difference.

I was actually at a Kobudo demonstration where a Daito Ryu group from Osaka participated last month. They said there would be Aiki no jutsu techniques so I paid quite a bit of attention. I saw nothing that I have not seen in a Shodokan dojo.

C. Emerson
08-16-2003, 10:49 AM
aiki-no-jutsu? What is it.

C. Emerson
08-16-2003, 10:57 AM
I think that all of the different styles of jujutsu are very interesting. Aiki, daito, jap and then all of the Korean off shoots of jujutsu. It is very interesting when you look at korean arts and how many of there so called traditional arts are off shoots or are based off of traditional aiki or daito ryu jujutsu.

-Chad

Chris Li
08-16-2003, 11:25 AM
I understand some Daito Ryu groups differentiate between Aikijujutsu and Aiki no Jutsu but even semantically I don't understand the difference.
As I understand these things, "Aiki no jutsu" is a series of 53 (?) actual techniques meant to instruct in Aiki.

"Aikijujutsu" is basically "jujutsu" with "aiki", speaking very generally.

Best,

Chris

PeterR
08-17-2003, 02:58 AM
As I understand these things, "Aiki no jutsu" is a series of 53 (?) actual techniques meant to instruct in Aiki.

"Aikijujutsu" is basically "jujutsu" with "aiki", speaking very generally.
That part I understand. However, aside from curriculum, what makes one technique aikijutsu and another aiki no jutusu.

As an aside - considering that the multiple uke pinning was referred to as aiki no jutsu in the demonstration I saw last month.

From Nariyama Shiahns recollections.

About the same time there was some special training with a Daitoryu Aikijujitsu teacher in the small dojo in the Japan Budokan and we joined in immediately. During his demonstration he showed a technique that left an impression on me in particular. He was spread-eagled face up on the tatami with four people holding his ankles and wrists and in an instant these four people were thrown off. We had difficulty believing this because it was difficult enough against just one person in randori practice or a match. It was a very strange spectacle but the talk of all my fellow students was that it didn't appear to be a fake technique. Later I asked Tomiki Shihan about it and his unexpected reply was, "I can do that anytime!". However, straight away I didn't believe him and doubt remained somewhere in my mind.

In July 1979, more than ten years later, the 2nd All Japan Competitive Aikido Meeting was held following on from the previous year. It was organised by the JAA and took place in Shihan's home town of Kakunodate in Akita prefecture. He had only just made a comeback from abdominal surgery in August of the previous year and taught with bandages wrapped around his abdomen. I was nominated as his uke for both days. It was an opportunity for him to show me the technique that I had been shown more than ten years earlier by the Daitoryu teacher. He did it very easily and without effort. Once again, needless to say, I was astonished at the depth of techniques.

Small note: Tomiki Shihan was dead five months later.

Mark Jakabcsin
08-17-2003, 09:41 AM
Peter,

My training experience that is relevant to the topic is Shodokan Aikido – None. Hence my use of the term Tomiki Aikido instead of Shodokan Aikido. While the Shodokan is the largest organization it is not the only one that traces its roots back to Tomiki. We (the group I train with) trace back to Tomiki through Jack Mumpower, who trained with Tomiki and Oba in the late 50’s and early 60’s. Mumpower was trained before there was a Shodokan, before Tomiki developed randori, and before the 17 randori techniques were developed. Mumpower is a difficult man on his best days and organizations have never been his thing. At some point Mr. Tomiki dispatched a senior student to the US to teach Jack the 17 so we are familiar with them but prefer the 15.

As for Daito-ryu, we (the group I train with) were a part of the Roppokai (Daito-ryu) for a few years. Hosted Okamoto many times here in the US, took trips to Japan to train and trained with Okamoto at other locations in the US when possible. That relationship became extremely difficult and we left several years ago, although we still train and develop what we have been taught. If you like, you can go to Okamoto’s site and check out the letter he posted 3 days ‘after’ he received our letter of withdraw from his organization.

Back on topic.

The questions posed above: What makes a technique aiki no jutsu? Is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito ryu? This topic was discussed at great length over on e-budo (aikijujutsu section) several years ago. Unfortunately some of the best stuff was lost when e-budo crashed several years ago. That discussion is referred to by the e-budo posters as the First Great Aiki War, which occurred P.C. (Pre-Crash). After Crash (A.C.) there have been some decent discussions on the topic that can be looked up with relative ease. Although I caution these posts are not for the timid or easily offend. Tempers and egos flared, sometimes to childish proportions. I certainly acknowledge that at times my participation was not as adult as I would have liked. One other sad note is that two of the posters felt it necessary to go back long after the discussion was over and edit or delete every one of their posts. This is unfortunate since it makes the reading difficult to follow and it eliminates some good info and insight. However, with all of that said, some may still find it interesting reading.

This is a very difficult discussion to tackle in the training hall let alone on the Internet. The first question can take years training to start to understand if ever. Even then opinions can and will vary greatly as seen in the referenced e-budo discussions. IMO, aiki no jutsu is best summed up in the Supreme Courts opinion on pornography. When the Supreme Court was asked to define what makes something pornography instead of art, they basically said they couldn’t give a definitive definition but they knew it (porn) when they saw it. Aiki and aiki no jutsu are basically the same, you know it when you see it. The story from Nariyama Sensei is a perfect example.

The big problem when discussing this topic is that each of our frames of reference is different, in some cases very different. If I begin to discuss the basics of aiki no jutsu everyone will simply say, ‘ah yes, we do that too, hence we do have aiki no jutsu.’ Example, Okamoto states the three basic principles of aiki are breathing, circular motion and controlled response. Is there anyone on here that doesn’t feel breathing and circular motion are part of their basic principles? Probably not. Yet that doesn’t mean they are the same or even related, conveying this in words is difficult to the point of uselessness. I didn’t use to feel that way but it is hard enough to convey this understanding in the training hall over months and years of practice let alone the written word. To further my point look at the third basic principle of ‘controlled response’. I suspect a fairly large number of you reading this feel that means ‘uke tanks’. It doesn’t but when people see good aiki no jutsu and don’t have experience with it they can’t understand what happened. So they simply believe uke took a dive. It is easier for them to accept that and write it off.

The second question is only slightly easier. Is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito-ryu? The following is my opinion and I give it knowing that others will disagree, so be it. Chris mentioned that aiki no jutsu technique is a collection of 53 specific techniques. I acknowledge that this was probably true at one time but I don’t believe the essence of aiki no jutsu is in a specific technique or collection. Nor is that essence limited to a mere 53 applications. Aiki no jutsu is a concept of application of basic principles that becomes limitless. The 53 techniques are simply a method of teaching the concept, i.e. the techniques in and of themselves are limited, the key is understand the how’s and why’s and being able to apply those how’s and why’s.

I bring this up because I do believe that other arts outside of Daito-ryu use and have the same/similar concepts of application. So the answer to ‘is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito-ryu?’ is NO. The similar concepts of aiki no jutsu can be found in a few other arts, even if specific techniques aren’t. The concepts and ability to apply those concepts in a changing environment are what aiki no jutsu is really all about. Others disagree and their thoughts can be found on those e-budo posts…….if they haven’t deleted them.

Honestly I feel bad about this post, like I am copping out but it really will take hands on study by interested parties for an extended period of time to begin to understand. No post I could write could possibly convey the knowledge found in experience. In some of the threads on e-budo I wrote a great deal more, perhaps those will help. Sorry.

mark

Chris Li
08-17-2003, 11:04 AM
The second question is only slightly easier. Is aiki no jutsu technique specific to Daito-ryu? The following is my opinion and I give it knowing that others will disagree, so be it. Chris mentioned that aiki no jutsu technique is a collection of 53 specific techniques. I acknowledge that this was probably true at one time but I don't believe the essence of aiki no jutsu is in a specific technique or collection. Nor is that essence limited to a mere 53 applications. Aiki no jutsu is a concept of application of basic principles that becomes limitless. The 53 techniques are simply a method of teaching the concept, i.e. the techniques in and of themselves are limited, the key is understand the how’s and why's and being able to apply those how’s and why's.
What I meant was that "aiki no jutsu" is a name of a specific part of the Daito-ryu curriculum. Of course, "aiki" can be applied in other techniques, but then you are using the word "aiki no jutsu" in a different meaning than as the name of part of the curriculum.

Best,

Chris

Mark Jakabcsin
08-17-2003, 12:08 PM
Chris,

I understood exactly what you meant, not sure if you understood the direction I am headed. By most accounts S. Takeda did not have an organzied curriculum. His son attempted the organization later on. A potential problem with organizing such a thing is that the organization becomes limits and boundries placed on students.

Perhaps S. Takeda understood this limitation and that is why he never attempted an organization of the system. Perhaps he wanted folks to focus on the root principles, understand them and apply them in a limitless fashion. To me lack of boundries is the power and beauty in aiki no jutsu, understanding that IS the curriculum. A rigid curriculum cause folks to disregard anything that doesn't strictly adhere to what they perceive as the cirriculum. What they end up disregarding is exactly what they should be learning. Freedom and creativity.

Therefore, when I am using the phrase 'aiki no jutsu' I am refering to a specific portion of the curriculum. However, I am not limiting myself to a set number of techniques, I am refering to a method of response and application, not specific technique. Based on my understanding at present this understanding of method is far more important than specific technique. Perhaps my views will change in the future. Take care.

mark

PeterR
08-17-2003, 07:00 PM
Thanks Mark for both the background and the expansion.

Jack Mumpower may have kept to a particular point in Tomiki's developement of his system but is well respected over here. Actually pretty much anywhere. I have a quick question - do you practice the Koryu Goshin no Kata or any of the other kata sets. I must also say (and it relates to your comment about restrictions) is that the kata sets are a framework not a limitation. There is quite a bit of depth to Tomiki's system and again what prompted my post was the assertation that there was nothing comparable to aiki no jutsu within the Shodokan system. A couple of months back we were working on pinning multiple uke's - I failed miserably.

The yondan I mentioned above train in Roppokai - he is very impressed with the teacher and knowing who he compares him to - he must be good. I am thinking of joining him one evening but more I can't manage.

Chuck Clark
08-17-2003, 08:30 PM
Peter,

One of our Jiyushinkai members has been in Japan now for over three years and has been practicing Daito ryu. He was promoted to shodan about a year ago in Daito ryu. His teacher "borrowed" a couple of our training tapes and kept them for three months, as I heard this story..., and when he brought them back he said that his teacher and others liked what they saw. However, they said we were not doing "aikido" but, in fact, we were doing Daito ryu.

On another occasion at one of our dojo in California, a fellow said that he recognized what they were doing as very similar to part of the Daito ryu catalog consisting of aiki no jutsu. What he was watching was two or our people practicing the Koryu dai san and the dai yon kata. I did not meet this guy but heard that he told our guys that he lived in Japan and had been training in Daito ryu for some years.

I really don't care much what it is called. A rose by any other name....

From what I have seen, on two occasions, of K. Kondo san, there is quite a lot of similarity in Tomiki's method left over from the early years with Ueshiba.

Good discussion guys, Thanks.

L. Camejo
08-18-2003, 07:03 AM
Very well said Chuck.

I think what we need to remember in online postings is that something may not appear to be generalised to us, but it may be to others.

By saying "Tomiki aikido has ..... or does not have ...." is an example of a generalisation that does not take into account the different training patterns and unique ways of operation of different schools that follow Tomiki's way of thought, or any other influential individual for that matter. The same elements of creativity that Mark referred to in an earlier post are also in evidence here - different dojos train differently.

This is why I refer to styles and organisations by their definitive name, as we see the different, yet similar replies from Shodokan and Jiyushinkai, both Tomiki-based schools which focus on different elements of his teaching.

Mark himself admits that he trains in a system that takes a certain part of Tomiki's teaching "before there was a Shodokan" and "prefer the 15" to the junanahon. This is another element of that creativity and freedom of expression that is Aikido. But it does not enable one to make sweeping statements of Tomiki's concepts, as there are also other expressions, including the one he personally tried to develop for his own reasons, which is Shodokan.

I agree with Mark there are certain things that are not easily or cannot be put into words. This is why we must very carefully choose the words that we do use.:)

In the Spirit of Budo

Onegaishimasu

L.C.:ai::ki:

justinm
08-18-2003, 08:41 AM
I've been reading a book called "The Hidden Roots of Aikido - Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu. The author is Shiro Omiya.

The author refers to 'three distinct methods for applying a technique and controlling an opponent" - Daitoryu Jujutsu, Daitoryu Aiki Jujutsu and Daitoryu Aiki no Jutsu, and then proceeds to demontrate the same technique (ippon dori) using each of the three methods.

He also explains what he believes the difference between the methods to be.

Bronson
08-18-2003, 09:50 AM
He also explains what he believes the difference between the methods to be.
Enquiring minds want to know...

Bronson

C. Emerson
08-18-2003, 11:52 AM
So i'm clear, daito ryu jujutsu doesn't have any aiki or doesn't focus on it in there techniques. Because if it did it would be named daito ryu aikijujutsu. If not, whats the differance between the two.

Chris Li
08-18-2003, 12:26 PM
I've been reading a book called "The Hidden Roots of Aikido - Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu. The author is Shiro Omiya.

The author refers to 'three distinct methods for applying a technique and controlling an opponent" - Daitoryu Jujutsu, Daitoryu Aiki Jujutsu and Daitoryu Aiki no Jutsu, and then proceeds to demontrate the same technique (ippon dori) using each of the three methods.

He also explains what he believes the difference between the methods to be.
There's a thread on eBudo somewhere, but Shiro Omiya's credentials are somewhat questionable. Whether he knows what he's talking about or not I have no idea.

Best,

Chris

Chuck Clark
08-18-2003, 12:27 PM
Mr. Emerson,

There seems to be a problem, you should contact Jun, as it appears that you're not receiving all of the posts that have been added pertaining to your original question.

Daito ryu certainly does contain elements of their curriculum that specifically deal with "aiki". Judo doesn't have aiki within it's name, but really good judo certainly has aiki principles in it. Watch film of Mifune Kyuzo, Kodokan 10th dan and you'll see lots of real aiki waza.

akiy
08-18-2003, 12:30 PM
There seems to be a problem, you should contact Jun, as it appears that you're not receiving all of the posts that have been added pertaining to your original question.
Provided you don't have people on your ignore list, this should be post number 23 in this thread...
Daito ryu certainly does contain elements of their curriculum that specifically deal with "aiki". Judo doesn't have aiki within it's name, but really good judo certainly has aiki principles in it. Watch film of Mifune Kyuzo, Kodokan 10th dan and you'll see lots of real aiki waza.
Yup. Quite agreed...

-- Jun

C. Emerson
08-18-2003, 10:34 PM
Jun, am I on your list?

PeterR
08-18-2003, 10:57 PM
I really don't care much what it is called. A rose by any other name....
I think I still prefer to refer to what I do as Aikido although as I stated elsewhere - if my teacher decided to call what he did something else I would follow his lead.

Still the idea that somehow Aikido is an emasculated form of Daito ryu because it does not have this or that comes up frequently enough that my hackles rise.

The Shodokan curriculum is very different from the curriculum of any of the Daito Ryu styles. Hey its very different from any of the other Aikido styles. That means that there are things that I can do better at my level than people from other styles and conversely things that I am less brilliant at. Without a doubt there are waza performed regularily in some dojos that I have never or rarely seen. However, broadly speaking, I'll say it again. At least with respect to Shodokan Aikido and Daito ryu I have yet to see anything particularily unique.

I don't think Shodokan is at all emasculated.

Chuck Clark
08-19-2003, 01:48 AM
OUCH!!

Peter, I think this issue strikes a thin place on your epidermal covering somewhere.

I have a pretty good eye (picked up over the past fifty years of practice) and I do see some similarities in principle and form between some of the Daito ryu stuff and Tomiki Sensei's earlier stuff. I don't think Shodokan is emasculated at all. I think it's Nariyama san's image of what he learned from Tomiki Sensei. There are other senior people in the Tomiki (JAA) group whose stuff does not look like the current Shodokan form. There's no problem with that, in my view. It's the way of things.

I don't do either Shodokan or Daito ryu but there are some similarities in my form that is recognizable as coming from that family.

When I look at principle and form, I try not to pay attention to individual style in the analysis so much. There's room for us all, to be sure. If it really works, there's no need for us all to look like peas in a pod.

By the way, it sounds as though you're having a great time on your trip. I'm sure your wife is having a great time with family, etc. Enjoy!

Cheers,

PeterR
08-19-2003, 02:19 AM
Sorry Chuck I used your post as a jumping off point - it wasn't really directed at anything I thought you meant.

I was referring not so much to this thread as to a commonly stated point of view that Aikido is an emasculated form of Daito Ryu. Check out e-budo where you have people with less than three years in their art convinced they know something no Aikidoist could possibly comprehend no matter how long they study. A view that was touched on by one of Mark's posts - although I must say he was eloquent enough.

Since what I do is Aikido that broad brush paints me and my teachers, and I do think that view is misplaced. Yes it's a pet peeve - I have a few.

I know Shodokan Aikido is not emasculated, you wont even catch me wringing my hands as to whether Aikido works or not. I do think there are training regimes that limit what Aikido can do but that is another question.

My vacation ended two weeks ago - pity it was real nice but I did miss the regular training.

Mark Jakabcsin
08-19-2003, 07:59 AM
First I want to thank Larry Camejo for politely putting me in my place. I used very sloppy language in my early posts on this thread, which resulted in an overly broad statement. I should have thrown in some phrases like 'In my experience...' or 'From what I have seen...'. I certainly have not experienced every style, type or sect of Aikido, not sure that would even be possible. Therefore it is possible that aiki no jutsu resides in one of those areas I haven't experienced. Heck I'll even concede it could reside in a style I have seen and I just didn't get to see/experience it. I concede to the possibility but I honestly feel that possibility is very, very small. Just my opinion. Larry, thanks for keeping me honest, I will try to be more careful in my word choices.

Peter,

I feel that you have read a sentiment into my posts that is not there. I did not state nor did I imply that Tomiki's legacy is emasculated. My personal feelings are very much the opposite. I am a Tomiki fan....possibly fanatic. I frequently go on buying binges on e-bay purchasing as many different editions of his book as I can (I intend to collect them all). I love reading his work and think about learning to read Japanese just so I can read his work that hasn't been translated (unfortunately I am language impaired so the chances of that happening are right about zero). I think it is a crime that some folks have video of Tomiki and Oba in the 50's and 60's and refuse to share. TAR AND FEATHER THE GUILTY I SAY!!

With that said it doesn't change my opinion about aiki no jutsu, but it doesn't mean I believe his system is emasculated or inferior. First what aiki no jutsu is or isn't is all opinion. Ask 10 different folks and get 10 different opinions, that's just the nature of this beast. Secondly, aiki no jutsu isn't the end-all be-all of any system, it is simply one more problem solving method that 'might' come in handy.

Having aiki no jutsu or not having it doesn't detract from the sheer brillance of the training system that Tomiki developed. Almost every time I work in his system I see new reasons 'why' he developed his system as he did. He was a trained and talented educator and designed his system with that knowledge. His basic 15 (17 if you prefer) cover an amazing amount of ground.

In a relatively small amount of techniques he illustrates the basic movements, body positions, postures, balance lines, entry lines, etc. that encompass some 2000+ Daito-ryu techniques. Some may find that hard to believe but break down almost any Daito-ryu jujutsu technique into it's components and with few exception each of those components can be found in the 15 basic, if one understands what Tomiki is trying to teach with each technique. I believe that was his goal, to create a basic set that students could use as a Lego set to put together in a limitless fashion. Kind of the ABC's of Aikido (Daito ryu. Unfortunately, of the folks I have discussed this with few actually see what he has left us.

Sorry, I went off on a little rant of my own.

What can I say? We both have different experiences and therefore different conclusions. For what it's worth I think you are in a mighty fine system. Enjoy.

mark

akiy
08-19-2003, 09:27 AM
Jun, am I on your list?
No one is on my ignore list.

-- Jun

justinm
08-19-2003, 09:30 AM
Some may find that hard to believe but break down almost any Daito-ryu jujutsu technique into it's components and with few exception each of those components can be found in the 15 basic, if one understands what Tomiki is trying to teach with each technique. I believe that was his goal, to create a basic set that students could use as a Lego set to put together in a limitless fashion

mark
I have zero experience in Tomiki's approach, however what you expressed here sounds a lot like the kihon dosa we use in Yoshinkan aikido.

PeterR
08-19-2003, 07:03 PM
Appologies to Mark and Chuck and any innocent by-standers. I just felt a need for a rant.

L. Camejo
08-20-2003, 01:51 PM
Mark: No need to thank me for anything. I have been guilty of the same for a few times myself:).

On another Daito Ryu / Aikido relations note, I was wondering if anyone had experience with both the Aikido (generalised) and Daito Ryu training / application of metsuke in doing technique, tactics etc.

I remember watching a video of K. Kondo speaking about the importance of metsuke (almost as a technical system in its own right) and the "deeper" elements of proper metsuke training. We do exercises to train metsuke in Shodokan, but I was wondering what the differences may be like with the Daito Ryu way of approaching the concept.

It would be nice if someone with some DR and Aikido experience could shed some light.

Domo

L.C.:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
08-20-2003, 02:21 PM
My experience in Daito ryu is limited, so I can't speak to any details. Generally, I would think that the gaze would be more direct. I believe most aikido goes for a softer focus. Something about risking getting "captured" by the opponant.

In the yoshinkan I've heard people speak of a more direct focus to a specific eye, for instance, for a specific purpose. I'd think there would be more specifics in the daito ryu approach.

While I'm not much into "secrets"...I would echo John Stevens here. There are not so much secrets as there are things that should be transmitted personally. I would think this would apply to some things in both aikido and daito ryu.

This would be one of them, in my opinion.

Ron

Mark Jakabcsin
08-21-2003, 09:03 AM
Larry,

Following is a passage from Kenji Tomiki's book 'Judo and Aikido' that relates to your question about the eyes. This passage can be found on pages 33-35, 5th edition. I am in a hurry and typed it very quickly and didn't proof read so any typo's are all my fault.

mark

“When you are confronted with an adversary or are fighting with him, it is an important question where you should fix your eyes. In case it is yet to be seen by what means, from what direction, and at what moment the adversary will attack you, on what part of his body should your eyes be fixed?

“The eyes are said to be the window for the mind. They are an index to your mind. Where the eyes are fixed, there the mind is concentrated, and naturally the will is attracted. Where the eyes are kept, there the mind is also kept. The problem of the eyes resolves itself into the question of mentality, “Where should one fix one’s mind?”

“There is a book of secrets in fencing entitled ‘Fudochi Shimmeiroku’ (Divine Book on Imperturbable Wisdom), which treats the problem in a plain manner. It is said to have been written by the learned Buddhist priest Takuan (1573-1645) for Munenori Yagyu (1571-1646) who was a celebrated master swordsman and fencing instructor to the shogun. It gives an explanation of the problem of the mind according to the Zen doctrine. The author speaks of the fudoshin (imperturbable mind). If the mind is drawn to the forearm, it is kept off the face and vice versa. If your attention is attracted to the abdomen, it is distracted from other spots. Fixing of the mind on one point results in neglecting other points and engendering an opening for a blow. So your attention must not be drawn to anything in particular. Thus the priest concludes that not to fix your mind on one point is to keep it everywhere on the body, to bring it into play at will any moment.

“Takuan also cites as an example the Senju Kannon (Thousand-handed Goddess of Mercy), and says that as attained the supreme wisdom she is not harassed by evil passions and can act with perfect freedom, so that she is able to use her thousand hands as she pleases. Thus the author warns the students of martial arts that they should not allow their mind to be distracted by fear, fright, misgivings and delusions about their adversary. This corresponds to the proposition in the secrets of judo: “With an open mind enter into the mysteries of nature, and with inaction master the principles of changes.”

“When confronting an opponent, you should fix your eyes on his face with the eyes as the center. Take care not to open your eyes wide, turn your pupils, wink or fix your gaze only on a particular part. It is important to obtain practice in keeping your eyes on the opponent’s face, and moreover see him from head to foot and on both sides. And it is an ideal for the eyes that they will become able, as the old saying goes, ‘to see through the opponent’s mind with the inward eye.’”

PeterR
08-21-2003, 06:43 PM
And people wonder why I'm lured into Tomiki's world.