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Kensai
08-14-2003, 05:16 AM
Would it be fair to say these 3 styles affected Aikido the most:

Daito Ryu

Kito Ryu

Shinkage Ryu (swordsmanship)

If not, what others would you add or take away?

Aikilove
08-14-2003, 05:55 AM
I would say most influence were given by: Takeda Sokaku and Deguchi Onisaburo.

SeiserL
08-14-2003, 09:36 AM
IMHO, I would have to vote for Daito-ryu for the physical techniques (though your can see similiarities in any Aiki-jujitsu style) and Omoto for the philosophical.

Where Aikido come from is important, so is where it is and where it is going. These are directed by our individual daily practice.

Ron Tisdale
08-14-2003, 09:48 AM
Personally, I would remove kito ryu and shinkage ryu...I agree that Omoto kyo should be added.

Ron

Eric Joyce
08-14-2003, 09:48 AM
Hey Chris,

I would say the most influential of the 3 arts you mentionned that affected aikido would be Daito Ryu. As a mater of fact, I watched Kondo sensei's Daito Ryu DVD last night with my sensei and you can see where the influence came from in the techniques. After watching, I came to the conclusion that Daito Ryu did play a big part in Ueshiba's aikido, but Ueshiba also removed and added things to develop what is now aikido. I recommend this DVD to any aikidoka that is curious about the history of Daito Ryu and its history.

C. Emerson
08-14-2003, 10:28 AM
Is Daito pronounced dieto or dayto?

akiy
08-14-2003, 10:41 AM
Is Daito pronounced dieto or dayto?
"Dai" is basically the same as the English word "die" and "to" rhymes with "dough."

-- Jun

Don_Modesto
08-14-2003, 12:09 PM
Would it be fair to say these 3 styles affected Aikido the most:

Daito Ryu

Kito Ryu

Shinkage Ryu (swordsmanship)
Daito Ryu--definately. Before 1942, Osensei issued DR certificates. Evidently, his son bent over backwards to erase this history--photo retouching and everything.

Kito Ryu--one of Judo's influences; not associated with aikido.

Shinkage Ryu--Some say so; Osensei studied some, I believe, but for a very short time.

Ono-ha Itto Ryu--people often point out the similarity between some of Saito's KUMITACHI and OIR's kata.

Alfonso
08-14-2003, 12:24 PM
Out of curiosity; in K. Ueshibas account of the original encounter between M.U. and S.T. he mentions that Morihei was made aware of Sokaku after having beat a high ranked Sumo wrestler who confused him with Mr T.

The account says that O Sensei was 30 at that time; if he was an able fighter at that time is it inconceivable that he had prior training in other arts?

not trying to imply that these are major technical influences in Aikido; was Morihei at 30 a bruiser, a strong man with no skill?

Greg Jennings
08-14-2003, 12:29 PM
Ono-ha Itto Ryu--people often point out the similarity between some of Saito's KUMITACHI and OIR's kata.
Hi Don,

IIRC it's the Kashima Shinto Ryu. The Founder's keppan is in the enrollement books of the KSR according to Meik Skoss's article in AJ. In the article Meik comments on the Iwama kumitachi #1 being identical to the KSR kumitachi #1.

FWIW,

Ron Tisdale
08-14-2003, 12:31 PM
I don't think anyone debates whether he had prior training...but sometimes *what* he had training in and in what amount is called into question. About a year or so of judo from a low level instructor. Some sumo training. Perhaps some other types of jujutsu or weapon art. Most of the accurate research from a scholarly perspective is on AikidoJournal.com.

As far as what we see in Aikido...if you are at all familiar with the styles often listed, Daito ryu, Ono Ha Itto ryu, Omoto kyo (religeon) are the things that stand out as obviously influencing the techniques and principles seen in Aikido. The other stuff? Not so much, if at all, really. 'Course, people do love to speculate...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
08-14-2003, 12:33 PM
Hi Gregg,

Isn't it said that Ueshiba generally watched others practise, and drew his material from what he saw? That is a good article, I should reread it.

RT

cguzik
08-14-2003, 02:15 PM
Ono Ha Itto Ryu was the style of sword that Sokaku Takeda practiced, I believe. I don't recall ever reading anything about Ueshiba Sensei studying it, though.

Here is the Meik Skoss article:

Kashima Shinto Ryu (http://www.koryubooks.com/library/mskoss3.html)

Chris

Greg Jennings
08-14-2003, 03:14 PM
Hi Gregg,

Isn't it said that Ueshiba generally watched others practise, and drew his material from what he saw? That is a good article, I should reread it.
Hi Ron,

That's what I recall from Meik's article and from other things I've read. He would watch his students practice with the KSR instructor, then as soon as the instructor left, he would jump up and begin working.

Regards,

Kensai
08-14-2003, 05:54 PM
So if you had to short list the most important "Martial" Jujutsu styles in Aikido what would they be. I mean Daito looks pretty central, but its not all is it?

akiy
08-14-2003, 06:17 PM
You can get a pretty good feel for the founder's experience in martial arts in the interview with Stanley Pranin here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/interviews/pranin0800.html

-- Jun

Don_Modesto
08-14-2003, 07:16 PM
You can get a pretty good feel for the founder's experience in martial arts in the interview with Stanley Pranin here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/interviews/pranin0800.html

-- Jun
Thanks for the correcton Greg, and the link, Jun.

sanosuke
08-14-2003, 08:51 PM
Would it be fair to say these 3 styles affected Aikido the most:

Daito Ryu

Kito Ryu

Shinkage Ryu (swordsmanship)

well, definitely not Brazilian Jujitsu...:D