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Michael Neal
07-27-2003, 05:42 PM
http://www.kiaigolf.com/kiaigolf.shtm

You must view all the pages on this site to get the full picture here

my favorite page:

http://www.kiaigolf.com/aikido3.htm

Pay particular attention to the photo with Frank Doran and the caption "Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"

hahahahahahaah!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my God!! I would not be hapy about this if I were Doran Sensei.

shihonage
07-27-2003, 06:58 PM
"You bow to the sword with deep respect. As you hold the sword in your two hands they become one, joining left & right, upper & lower, mind & body. You extend the sword forth from your center-line, channeling your thought into conscious action. The sword is sharp and shining, an instrument of unification and purification. It helps you sever instability and confusion and cut directly to the core. The sword summons every ounce of your courage conviction compassion."

Jamie Sensei

"With just a little imagination, much the same can be seen and said of a golf club.

You organize your body and mind down the shining shaft of the club to the golf ball. Left & right, upper & lower, inner & outer, thought & action, reason & intuition - all unite in holding the club at address.

The challenges posed by golf - to unite self with club, club with ball, ball with fairway, chip with green, putt with cup - are enough to purify the least and greatest of people!

The KiAi golf club draws you into a clear focus that vitalizes body, mind and game."

kensparrow
07-27-2003, 09:31 PM
I'm guessing people would be much more willing to let you play through if you were carrying a sword instead of a golf club.

PhilJ
07-27-2003, 10:12 PM
I'm guessing people would be much more willing to let you play through if you were carrying a sword instead of a golf club.
I love it Ken, very good point! :D

Chris Raywood
07-27-2003, 11:52 PM
Everytime I think I have seen it all, I am reminded how truly naive I am, or maybe I'm just having a bad dream.

jaxonbrown
07-28-2003, 07:47 AM
I heard some people say they can find their center by playing golf.

I hate golf. I used to like it but I hate it now. Too many rich guys in expensive shoes, golf shirts and shorts always crowding you from behind because they can afford golf carts when you prefer to hoof it. They complain to the marshall and then he harasses you to hurry up.

But anyway, I fear this kind of 'pop' aikido. People who are into the zen/yoga/chickory-coffee scene are already bored with meditation and breathing exercises. I sure hope it doesn't catch on. The next thing we'll be seeing are kids wearing hakamas down low so thier rear ends are showing. "hip hop" aikido anyone?

tedehara
07-28-2003, 08:30 AM
In his 1976 book Book of Ki: Co-Ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870403796/qid=1059398165/sr=bow-2/ref=pd_search_bow_2/002-3135466-3446425) by Koichi Tohei (10th Dan), he devotes pgs 57-63 on "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf".

Mind and body co-ordination should extend to everything in your life. This includes other activities besides aikido.

Russ Qureshi
07-28-2003, 10:36 AM
Why is there a need to "market" aikido? I dislike the idea of aikido and (fill in the blank). Jamie sensei has her angle, her niche, to make a living (and I wouldn't even hint that she doesn't have that right) but to focus so sharply on the golf angle cheapens aikido as budo. I first read about her in ATM and my reaction was "Oh my God! Only in America!" I don't know her but on face value it seems like a huge sell out.

Cheers,

Russ

PhilJ
07-28-2003, 10:38 AM
While the pmpousness of the advert is disturbing to many people, and even funny (to me), I guess I don't see anything wrong with it. Odd it is associated with aikido, since these principles could come from just about anywhere.

The martial arts have taken on some seriously silly things over the decades, and somehow manage to outlast it all.

Anyway, I hope a hakama craze catches on, I'd love to wear mine to work, with a nice comfy kimono! :)

*Phil

Erik
07-28-2003, 11:30 AM
"How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf".
I've always said those ki exercises didn't work. :)

deepsoup
07-28-2003, 12:31 PM
All kidding aside... Personally this is one of the silliest things I have ever seen. But I think Golf is one of the silliest and Aiki-"insert whatever non-martial activity you desire" is another. But I hope her the best in all that she does and who knows, maybe I am missing something....
I dont normally go in for "me too" posts, but I couldn't resist an opportunity to wholeheartedly agree with Jaime, so: "me too, 100%"
Pay particular attention to the photo with Frank Doran and the caption "Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"
Hey, c'mon Michael, fair's fair: you can clearly see the "vibrant electrical effect" by the way 'Jamie Sensei's hair is standing on end! ;)

Sean

x

shihonage
07-28-2003, 01:04 PM
I think there would be no issue if she just advertised herself as a professional golf instructor.

No "kiai", no hakama in photographs, no comparisons of sword and a golf club.

Sharon Seymour
07-28-2003, 04:02 PM
Wow. Powerful women. Scary, aren't they? So few people have the dedication to not only achieve a high level of practice under highly-regarded and demanding teachers, but also to take their practice off the mat and reach out to those who might never consider martial arts training.

Go back to the kiai golf website and click on the Jamie Zimron link. Read the resume.

As Bill Cosby said, "I don't know the secret of success, but the secret of failure is to try and please everybody."

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-28-2003, 04:30 PM
Wow. Powerful women. Scary, aren't they?


These type of comments are unnecessary and uncalled for. No one here challenged the concept simply on the basis that it was developed by a woman. This is a good example where a you are asking us all to take a "leap of faith" in terms of making a connection between two things (gender and critique of the concept) that clearly do not exist.

Most unfortunately, it negates any reasonable reading of the rest of your post. Sad, because when you write,

So few people have the dedication to not only achieve a high level of practice under highly-regarded and demanding teachers, but also to take their practice off the mat and reach out to those who might never consider martial arts training.


it is a much more powerful statement - one I happen to agree with you on - one hundred percent.

Go back to the kiai golf website and click on the Jamie Zimron link. Read the resume.
You can easily point at the resume of just about any accomplished individual and say, "See here, look at all these accomplishments." That doesn't really offer anything in terms of insulation from that very same individual doing the most bone-headed thing in the world. Accomplished people may, in fact, be a group with the single highest ratio of doing bone-headed things to learning from those very same mistakes.

As Bill Cosby said, "I don't know the secret of success, but the secret of failure is to try and please everybody."
Again, truer words have yet to be spoken. However, this doesn't mean that one should negate the thinking, opinions and considerations of others in their own field.

Clearly, most of the comments here have been negative. Even those, such as myself, who support her initiative, and applaud her talent and ingenuity, still have some issue with the packaging.

While, I have serious problems with wearing Hakama on the golf-course, and didn't really care for her demonstration at the Aiki-Expo, I think that what she is doing, while not remarkable in any sense, is being very true to her own path. Perhaps the better way of marketing these two separate things, is to keep them separate, encouraging those interested in one to cross over into the other via the relationship she has with the individuals that study with her. That, to me, would be a more powerful method, as opposed to creating some artificial way of marketing the two together, in an attempt that only achieves something that is devoid of the natural culture of either element.

deepsoup
07-28-2003, 05:47 PM
Wow. Powerful women. Scary, aren't they?
Some powerful women are utterly terrifying, you're right. I refer the British reader (and those in the know) to the dreaded milk snatcher. 'nuff said.

But thats not really what you mean, is it? You mean we're all being sexist, and we're only mocking 'Jamie Sensei's website because she is female. (And please note, it is the website, not the woman, being mocked in this thread.)

That'll be it. I expect none of us would be mocking a male golf coach posing on the course in gi and hakama. (Or indeed on the mat, posing in golfing gear lining up an imaginary shot with a golf club - check the gallery.)

Oh, hang on a minute... yes we would!

The resume is very impressive, she may be a wonderful aikidoist (maybe even an aikidoka). I'm sure there's a lot more money to be made teaching golf than there is teaching aikido and in a market as competitive as that it sure can't hurt to have a gimmick. A unique selling point, as I believe the marketing people call it. I wish her all the best, I really do.

But the fact remains its an extremely cheesy website, and I'll titter about it if I want, ok?

Sean
x

Michael Neal
07-28-2003, 06:00 PM
Go back to the kiai golf website and click on the Jamie Zimron link. Read the resume
Did you happen to catch the last entry on her resume "2001 Appointed Aikido Division Head for Juko-Kai USA by the Founder/Soke Dr. Rod Sacharnowski."

If you know anything about this organization you would agree with me that this is contrary to impressive.

Also, a great deal of the items on her resume seem to be self started projects and perhaps embellishments that hardly reflect anything impressive at all.

There are however some interesting things on her resume which makes it so sad that she destroys her otherwise notable credibility with nonsense.

Michael Neal
07-28-2003, 06:36 PM
http://www.mcgregorsmartialarts.com/about/instructors.asp

LOL, here she is on a juko kai website

tedehara
07-28-2003, 08:31 PM
I've always said those ki exercises didn't work. :)When you make 10th Dan, I will reconsider. ;)

Michael Neal
07-28-2003, 09:16 PM
I did not post this in order to put anyone down or to attack the spiritual Aikido types. My motive is a love for Aikido. So many people are put off by this kind of stuff and decide to take another martial art. This weakens Aikido because it cuts out many capable people who could bring Aikido to a new level.

It is great to practice Aikido with a skinny hippie dude and it is a lot of fun, but practicing with him and someone the size of Tank Abbott or an atheletic college wrestler would improve my Aikido capabilites alot more. Aikido can be for everyone but it should not put off those who are serious about learning a martial art and those who are very serious about is appplicability against a 250lb biker on crystal meth.

I am sorry but talking your child out of saying bad things about you and ending it in a peaceful hug does not cut it as self defense for many people. Neither does a Kiai golf swing.

When I see things like this Kiai Golf website I see the bastardization of Aikido.

And I know that because of things like the growth of Aikido as an effective martial art will stagnate because the best & brightest will go to things like BJJ, MMA, Judo etc..

Frankly it pisses me off.

opherdonchin
07-28-2003, 09:53 PM
Hey Michael,

The website put me off as well, but I think you are mixing up two very different issues. What put me off about the website has little to do with an over-spiritualization of Aikido and a lot to do with (what seems to me) poor marketing choices. My reaction to this website was not really different than my reaction to websites that promote someone's school with an overly agressive and seemingly hyped emphasis on his martial skill and martial credentials.

I don't have anything against either martial skill or the exension of Aikido to the rest of our lives. However, either of them, when it is done in poor taste, can be a potential turn off for people interested in Aikido.

Another problem I have with your post is this. You pay lip service to valuing equally those who study Aikido for its daily applications and those who study it to learn to fight. However, the feel of your post is really that the 'best & brightest' are the ones who value beating people up more than they value improvements in their daily lives. My own prejudice, as is probably clear, is in the opposite direction. I think posts like yours could potentially alienate people (my 'best & brightest') who would like to do Aikido but are worried about feeling accepted and valued. As you said, "this weakens Aikido because it cuts out many capable people who could bring Aikido to a new level."

My final problem with you post is that I think that Aikido is stronger than you are giving it credit for. If it can survive its founder's esoteric mysticism and universe-embracng spirituality, then it can survive Aiki Golf as well.

Erik
07-28-2003, 10:08 PM
When you make 10th Dan, I will reconsider. ;)
Ted, I'm getting the sense that you are not a golfer. The point is to lower one's handicap not raise it.

YEME
07-29-2003, 01:29 AM
you americans crack me up.

next there'll be drive thru dojo's opening up in vegas.

buy ki for 5.95.

this week i've learnt to lessen my outrage at these weird marketing stretegies long enough to come to the conclusion that those who are serious about Aikido will not be affected by them.

And those who fall for them will just burn a substantial hole in their wallet.

but then, i don't play golf.

by the way...wouldn't the hakama impair putting a little?

Michael Neal
07-29-2003, 05:57 AM
The statement I quoted earlier has alot to do with the mystical/spiritual aspect of Aikido:

"Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"

This site is riddled with new age spiritual Aikido not just golf.
the feel of your post is really that the 'best & brightest' are the ones who value beating people up more than they value improvements in their daily lives.
What I am saying is that many who are very serious about martial arts and who have alot of physical talent are put off by this stuff. I don't realy care about the people who want to beat people up, that is a different breed all together. There are lots of people who currently practice Aikido that have physical talent but I believe that the art is weakened when many good martial artists go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.

I am sure Aikido will survive but I think it is hampered and its delevopment is somewhat hindered.

Peter Goldsbury
07-29-2003, 06:10 AM
Perhaps this is something of a local difficulty.

Over here in my part of the world, some people who are fanatical about golf also do aikido and I am sure they blend the two together in some way. They just don't make videos and talk about it.

Suggesting that this will lead to the downfall of aikido is perhaps an over statement.

I think the problem here is the opposite: aikido, especially as it is practised in large organizations, tends to be part of the political establishment.

Best regards,

Robert Rumpf
07-29-2003, 08:57 AM
Michael, you might want to consider one other thing as well: that a "serious martial artist" with "a lot of physical talent" who cannot see the applicability behind these softer takes on the art is liable to miss a lot of the subtleties of Aikido as well. Such a person is not helpful on the mat for a long, long time, but more a hindrance. They also seem to plateau fairly readily as well even if they suffer through training for a while.

When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster, instead of spending the first 1-2 years of their training wrestling on the mat instead of actually learning Aikido. I'm not suggesting this isn't healthy for them, but it is not necessarily healthy for those of us who serve as makiwara.

Frankly, I've found that in my own training I learn more Aikido out of training with "skinny hippies" than with "college wrestlers".. or at least college wrestlers who don't do Aikido much.

As for golf itself..? I don't think its any accident that golf and baseball are both extremely popular in Japan. In particular, you can occasionally see people practicing their golf swing without a club at subway stops in Japan. These two hobbies have a lot of commonalities with Japanese culture, and it is a mistake to dismiss those connections, and to overlook their overlap in skill and mentality with martial training.

Making videos about it is very American. That doesn't make it wrong. It also wouldn't surprise me if there were Japanese videos about those connections as well. Golf is that much of an obsession in Japan.

I agree with Peter in that political issues and strictures within Aikido seem to be more active in weakening the art than those you find contemptuous by trying to expand its reach. Your comments are in that direction - you judge or berate others for applications of Aikido you find inappropriate, but that don't injure your growth. That is not a good path for the growth of the art.

PeterR
07-29-2003, 10:05 AM
Aiki-MooseHunting $49.95
It's all about chasing the MU.

mike lee
07-29-2003, 10:39 AM
The only thing that will lead to the downfall of aikido is students who spend too much time criticizing teachers rather than getting off of their butts and finding an appropriate teacher and then training diigently.

A "serious martial artist" will not be influenced one way or another by a golf/ki scheme. A "serious martial artist" finds good teachers, trains hard, and doesn't get all bent out of shape in the course of pointless discussions.

If a "serious martial artist" wants to train with Tank, he'll go find Tank and train with him he won't sit around talking about it.

Don_Modesto
07-29-2003, 05:22 PM
you americans crack me up.
We crack ourselves up. As they say: Once you get past the surface of fake tinsel, you'll find real tinsel!
next there'll be drive thru dojo's opening up in vegas.
...and sensei on roller skates.
buy ki for 5.95.
Sorry, Tohei Koichi has already been there.
by the way...wouldn't the hakama impair putting a little?
What's your point. HAKAMA impair bipedalism in aikido, too.

Chris Li
07-29-2003, 05:37 PM
Perhaps this is something of a local difficulty.

Over here in my part of the world, some people who are fanatical about golf also do aikido and I am sure they blend the two together in some way. They just don't make videos and talk about it.

Suggesting that this will lead to the downfall of aikido is perhaps an over statement.

I think the problem here is the opposite: aikido, especially as it is practised in large organizations, tends to be part of the political establishment.

Best regards,
Seijiro Masuda (Aikikai Hombu) will talk to you for hours about Aikido and golf - if you let him :).

Although there were a number of things that I disagreed with in the Aiki Expo demonstrations, I appreciated the spirit of innovation and freshness that was present - something often lacking in Japanese Aikido. Most new things probably won't work out so well - doesn't mean that they shouldn't be tried.

Best,

Chris

shihonage
07-29-2003, 06:34 PM
When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster
Your ignorance is astounding, sir.

Someone needs a reality check, and that someone is you.

Sharon Seymour
07-29-2003, 07:24 PM
Yikes! I stand (well, actually I'm sitting down at the moment) corrected. Duly noted that everyone would be equally willing to laugh at a guy in a hakama on a golf course.

So here's the joke. Dig out your copy of "Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei (paperback, Japan Publications, 1976) and turn to page 58, in the section "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf." ... and pages 59, 60 & 61.

LOL

Sharon

opherdonchin
07-29-2003, 09:11 PM
So here's the joke. Dig out your copy of "Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei (paperback, Japan Publications, 1976) and turn to page 58, in the section "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf." ... and pages 59, 60 & 61.First, I admit to thinking that that is pretty silly (without reading it, even). Second, it's more about the style of the website than it is about the idea that Aikido and golf have what to offer one another. Nobody laughs at The Inner Game of Tennis (or at least I've never heard them laughing)
Your ignorance is astounding, sir. Someone needs a reality check, and that someone is you.Aleksey, sometimes you are very amusing, but I thought this was just rude. Also, I have no idea what you mean.

Michael Neal
07-29-2003, 10:31 PM
Michael, you might want to consider one other thing as well: that a "serious martial artist" with "a lot of physical talent" who cannot see the applicability behind these softer takes on the art is liable to miss a lot of the subtleties of Aikido as well. Such a person is not helpful on the mat for a long, long time, but more a hindrance. They also seem to plateau fairly readily as well even if they suffer through training for a while.

When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster, instead of spending the first 1-2 years of their training wrestling on the mat instead of actually learning Aikido. I'm not suggesting this isn't healthy for them, but it is not necessarily healthy for those of us who serve as makiwara.
Oh my god come down off of your arrogant pedestal. I was not even talking about any experience in our dojo, in fact I think our dojo is quite the opposite of what I am criticizing. But I see now that you obviously have some issues about what goes on there.

The funny thing is that when I started Aikido I was quite skinny and very out of shape and was knocked around easily by bigger members of the dojo. When I got stronger I was able to keep my balance much better and handle bigger people when doing techniques, this had alot to do with strength not softness. Softness is fine but strength can be just as important. Now that I am stronger and more capable there are small few in our dojo that whine when I do not always follow their script. A few times in last couple months my partners resisted my techniques and when I did it in return they would look at me like I was crazy.

No the art of Aikido is not going to die because of the Kiai golf website but it certainly does not benefit from it. And I have to say that, along with Rob's patronizing, I think it might be the final nail in the coffin for Aikido for me at least. I like my school and my instructor but beyond that I don't see much hope for the my interest in Aikido when huge Aikido events like the Aikdo Expo trot these kind of weirdos out to demonstrate their Ki electric golf swing. And it also not promising to hear such arrogance coming from a senior member of my dojo.

So I guess I am off to hang with the dumb uncivilized child like cro magnums in Judo. I was sort of not sure about Aikido lately anyway so this has helped push me in the right direction.

Sometimes you need a little nudge to go where you really should and I think this all what I really needed.

shihonage
07-29-2003, 11:02 PM
Michael,

Although I agree completely with everything that you wrote in this thread, you might want to reconsider basing life-altering decisions on something originated on the Internet.

Even if the Internet thing is the last straw, that is not how it should be.

Internet flame-wars on the forums should play absolutely no role in affecting your judgment. Forum wars stay on the forums.

Once you log out, thats where they stay.

About Aiki Expo, it is quite clear that Mr. Stanley Pranin is a businessman, and he's making $$ from these events.

Everyone survives how they can, but of course I would prefer if that didn't involve making a laughingstock out of Aikido.

I don't think I'm the only one who looked in disbelief at that "Sensei" in green uniform who is probably forbidden from crossing certain bridges due to weight safety limits.

Fortunately there are still some good demonstrations of Aikido out there. I have a clip on my hard drive of some third-world country 3rd dans doing a nice little demo.

They even (gasp) do some punching !

Anyway... I hope that there will always be at least a niche for martially inclined.

I'm sure that even in the most flowery dojo there's still a couple of guys who know each other well and go beyond the "prescribed" training.

Ahem. Lost my train of thought there.

Well anyway, I bid you good evening.

SeiserL
07-30-2003, 12:32 AM
Saw the demo at the Expo, some nice stuff. I might not combine the two, but hey that's me. Worry less about what others are doing and more about how you personally represent the art. I think the downfall of Aikido is too much discusssion about what other people should or shouldn't do. Now everyone bow in and get back on the mats.

Kevin Wilbanks
07-30-2003, 01:42 AM
Yikes! I stand (well, actually I'm sitting down at the moment) corrected. Duly noted that everyone would be equally willing to laugh at a guy in a hakama on a golf course.

So here's the joke. Dig out your copy of "Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life" by Koichi Tohei (paperback, Japan Publications, 1976) and turn to page 58, in the section "How to Raise Your Handicap in Golf." ... and pages 59, 60 & 61.

LOL

Sharon
News flash: the rest of the world does not define everything that passes before their eyes in term of sexism or some bitter feminist ideology. You introduced a completely irrelevant note of whiny PC victimhood into the discussion and people rightly called you to task for it. The mere association of Aikido and golf elsewhere is as irrelevant to the concerns behind the criticism as sexism was. You give the impression of primarily wanting to maintain a sense your own sanctimony - leaving both the original substance of this conversation and the critiques of your intrusion into it as peripheral concerns.

deepsoup
07-30-2003, 06:12 AM
Kevin,

Sharon withdrew her 'sexism' complaint, the appropriate response to that is 'cool, thanks', rather than your diatribe. When you've made the sale, stop selling!

Sharon,

Cool, thanks. :)

Sean

x

Kevin Wilbanks
07-30-2003, 08:40 AM
Sean,

I think your sarcasm detector is broken, perhaps among other things. That was no withdrawl.

Robert Rumpf
07-30-2003, 09:39 AM
Oh my god come down off of your arrogant pedestal.
..says the 5th kyu who was arrogant enough to start this thread by ridiculing a 5th dan on a public forum. A 5th dan who is friends with a 7th dan who comes across country to teach here annually out of kindness.
And it also not promising to hear such arrogance coming from a senior member of my dojo.
Sorry to disappoint you. Since we don't train together often, I'm surprised that anything I do or say affects you much at all.

By the way, the reason I cited the 1-2 years above was that that was about how long it took me to get past the wrestling that I used to do - and I notice that that seems to be about the same time it has taken some others, too. Fortunately, my first partners didn't hold it against me once I realized what I was doing.

In my post you'll note that I didn't say anything at all about our dojo in particular, but was commenting on what I observed in all of the dojos I'd trained in, to one extent or another.

paw
07-30-2003, 10:00 AM
..says the 5th kyu who was arrogant enough to start this thread by ridiculing a 5th dan on a public forum.

Point of order. My impression is this thread was started as criticism of someone's actions not the individual.

From my perspective, it appears that personal attacks have started with your previous post and have been directed at Michael --- as far as the interplay betwix the two of you have begun.

If you feel that Michael has made a personal attack against Zimron, could you point it out? We may have a different perspective on something previously said.

Regards,

Paul

Qatana
07-30-2003, 10:38 AM
some would consider finger pointing and laughing in disbelief as a "personal attack"

opherdonchin
07-30-2003, 10:40 AM
Anyway... I hope that there will always be at least a niche for martially inclined.Me, too. Indeed, I hope it is always large enough for the martially inclined to feel that they have a proper home in Aikido, bless their little hearts.

paw
07-30-2003, 11:02 AM
Jo,
some would consider finger pointing and laughing in disbelief as a "personal attack"

I guess I don't see it that way. I saw that as someone laughing at someone's actions (did you see what they just did?), not the individual (look at that clown!).

In any event, I'm not concerned with Michael's actions towards Zimron so much as I'm concerned about Robert's actions towards Michael.

As I see it, both fellows train in the same place. Michael has expressed an opinion. Robert disagreed and did so in a way that Michael found patronizing. (Now, to be frank, I don't see it that way, but as both people know each other, I conceed that my perspective may be off). In any event, Michael again disagrees. Robert then personally attacks Michael.

Facts:

1. Robert responded only to Michael, and not to the others that objected to Robert's point of view

2. Robert knows Michael and they train at the same place

3. Robert played the "rank" card

Does anyone think that there is cause for concern in this interaction, or am I over-reacting?

Please advise,

Paul

happysod
07-30-2003, 11:39 AM
I have to add my agreement with Jaime and Paw regarding not only the website but also the interplay between Robert and Michael.

1. Websites are in the public domain, anyone does have the right to review and critique them. As the website in question draws upon aikido, this forum seems a reasonable place to take a sounding (and provide some of the less spiritually advanced golf-haters amongst us some amusement).

2. If Michael had intimated anything about the sensei's aikido and or rank (rather than the aikido/golf cross-over marketing) - then the rank card may (and only may) have been an appropriate response.

To quote the Adams family, "dirty pool" Robert, opinions are still a personal perogative (well at least until Jun says otherwise...)

bob_stra
07-30-2003, 12:08 PM
Ah... I see Aikiweb is in fine form today ;/
But anyway, I fear this kind of 'pop' aikido. People who are into the zen/yoga/chickory-coffee scene are already bored with meditation and breathing exercises. I sure hope it doesn't catch on.
Fess up. You've not been paying attention to recent trends ;-)

(or do we need another rousing chorus of kumbaya my lord?)

Seesh. I take it you folks aren't versed in the advertising style of Missrs Sonnon, Furey, and Tsatsouline. Golf club - tame in comparison to the "How would George Bush train to beat up Saddam?" ad Furey ran.

Kevin Wilbanks
07-30-2003, 12:24 PM
Just saw that Bush vs. Saddam ad. Gawd is that sad.

Incidentally, the Power Wheel is not a unicycle, and it was not designed by Furey - he was just re-selling them. The device was designed by Jon Hinds of Lifeline USA, and as far as I know, it predates all the other rollout wheels. The main exercises you can do with the wheel - rollouts, pike-ups, and bridges - aren't bad exercises. Whether you think the device is worth $50 may be another matter... You can do rollouts with a barbell or a much cheaper device, but the ones in which your feet are strapped on are unique to the Power Wheel.

Robert Rumpf
07-30-2003, 12:59 PM
Will someone please show me where I attacked Michael personally in my first post. I addressed the post to him personally, but in no way made any mention of his Aikido, personality, the Aikido of any particular dojo, or anything that one would usually talk trash about..

I addressed Michael personally because he began the thread. His subsequent posts as well were the most vehement - stating how much it all pissed him off, etc. Perhaps this is an etiquette issue that I should keep in mind, so sorry if the personal address (which was construed as a personal attack, for some reason) offended.
As I see it, both fellows train in the same place. Michael has expressed an opinion. Robert disagreed and did so in a way that Michael found patronizing. (Now, to be frank, I don't see it that way, but as both people know each other, I conceed that my perspective may be off).
I'm with you up to this point. I don't know why you criticized my first post if you "didn't see it that way" to begin with, but ok.

Michael and I train together, but we don't know each other personally, and have so far as I recall never exchanged any sort of disparaging remarks in the dojo or out of it, until this. There is no torrid interpersonal history involved, to my knowledge.

I even respect his sincerity, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with him or keep silent.
In any event, Michael again disagrees.

By calling me arrogant, as well as blaming a post I made on a web forum for part of his disallusionment with Aikido all within a brutally sarcastic and unfriendly post. But, as you said, this doesn't concern you.
Robert then personally attacks Michael.
I called his stance arrogant, no more, no less. This is after provocation, too. I stand by that remark. If that's an attack (on his person, and not on his actions - whatever that means), then it is no less an attack than the ones that started this thread against someone who isn't even here to defend themselves, and I think its justified.

If it is "pulling the rank card" to say that someone who chooses to mix Aikido and golf after having more than ten years experience in both should be given the benefit of the doubt, than call me guilty.

If you said that O'Sensei was a moron for playing with a fan, or that Tohei Sensei was silly for also talking about golf and Aikido (oh wait, that's been said here too) and you've only been training for a fraction of the time they have trained for, then yeah.. I'd play the "rank card" again, and feel just fine about it. Its a matter of relative experience; I don't think that differential can be taken lightly.

I would think that a true abuse of the "the rank card" would be me saying I was correct due to my own rank relative to his. I have not done this.

Apparently mentioning rank at all is unacceptable behavior. I'll keep that in mind. I was merely using it (in this case) as a shorthand for time served in the art of Aikido. It often is related to this, I'm told.

It is also interesting to me that the mention of Tohei-sensei's rank in other posts as a portion of a rebuttal did not occasion this response.

Does the 10th-dan rank have the cachet to be worth mentioning, but a 5th-dan rank does not?

Michael Neal
07-30-2003, 01:19 PM
..says the 5th kyu who was arrogant enough to start this thread by ridiculing a 5th dan on a public forum. A 5th dan who is friends with a 7th dan who comes across country to teach here annually out of kindness.

Sorry to disappoint you. Since we don't train together often, I'm surprised that anything I do or say affects you much at all.
A big part of our dojo is not placing importance on rank, in fact it is the very first point our instructor makes to new students. Funny how you like to put alot of emphasis on rank both here and in the dojo. Your comments have made me think about why you wear a brown belt in a dojo that uses only white & black, it has not dawned on me until now.

As others here have noted I was pointing out what I thought was absurd about the Kiai golf not trying to offer technical instruction on Aikido to a 5th Dan. In fact, I think the majority of people feel the same way I do about it. I may have overeacted some but it just because I simply have had enough of this kind of stuff.

The organizational politics that Peter A Goldsbury mentions reflects the endless fads & ego gratification, like the kiai golf stuff, that causes and endless splintering into new groups.

What purpose does the following serve but to pad ones resume and make one seem more important? Was being affiliated with Frank Doran not enough that she must associate herself with these nuts?

2001 Appointed Aikido Division Head for Juko-Kai USA by the Founder/Soke Dr. Rod Sacharnowski.

http://www.kiaigolf.com/jamie.shtm

There are at least 17 separate Aikido umbrella organizations in America alone, worldwide they are almost uncountable. This speaks volumes. This does not even take into account all of the independent dojos.

How can Aikido grow in this kind of atmosphere? in my view it will only continue to degenerate.
Internet flame-wars on the forums should play absolutely no role in affecting your judgment. Forum wars stay on the forums.

Believe me that this discussion is not what is pushing my decision, it is something I have been thinking about for a while. I think I will take a break from Aikido for some time and if I find that I miss it I will return. I know that I will miss the people at my dojo and my instructor but I don't think I should stay with Aikido if it is not right for me.

I will keep with Judo and maybe try out BJJ and if I find that I like Aikido better and can deal with the baggage that come along with it then I will come back to it.

Michael Neal
07-30-2003, 01:28 PM
When or if they grow up, open their eyes, and wake up, then perhaps they are more likely to actually get a clue at Aikido faster, instead of spending the first 1-2 years of their training wrestling on the mat instead of actually learning Aikido
Rob, when you say the above when directly addressing me by name it it really appears that you are directing those remarks towards me.

Erik
07-30-2003, 01:30 PM
Does the 10th-dan rank have the cachet to be worth mentioning, but a 5th-dan rank does not?

Well, to be honest, I was inclined to go after Ted on that one, but he's a nice guy, and the title speaks for itself. Based on the title of the chapter it's pretty clear that Koichi Tohei doesn't know (at least when he, or his writer, wrote that book) a damn thing about golf.

Would you go to Koichi Tohei to learn about rocket science because he has a tenth dan in Aikido?

By the way, I do think her rank is relevant. She has some skill in aikido and based on her resume some knowledge about golf as well. Probably she knows more about both of these than most of her critics but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be critics. We criticize movies all the time and most of us have never made a movie. The world seems to get along just fine.

Ron Tisdale
07-30-2003, 01:30 PM
Michael,

My take is perhaps try another dojo...but in reality you are correct, there is a *lot* of baggage. I just like the mat time enough to put up with it. And to try to minimize my own baggage.

I don't know what I would do if a training partner came on like this in public...but I know I wouldn't appreciate it.

Ron

Michael Neal
07-30-2003, 01:44 PM
Michael,

My take is perhaps try another dojo...

Ron
As I said earlier I really like my dojo and my instructor and it should not be reflected on poorly because of this, I have the highest regard for the strong martial ability, positive atmosphere, great people, and superior instruction there. My problem right now is with Aikido in general and its baggage. I am really not sure that it is the right thing for me and this is something that I will need to reflect on.

This other stuff certainly does not help but it is not the basis for my decision.

Michael,

If you want to try BJJ this guy is close to you, he is excellent from what I hear... (Well his teacher is) He should be able to tie you into knots with little effort

http://www.fusionbjj.com/

Thanks, I have actually already contacted them about some free trial lessons.

paw
07-30-2003, 02:20 PM
Robert,

Judging from the responses that have followed from last you posted ... well if it's all the same to you let's consider the matter closed and dropped.

Michael,

Not sure what to say. Contact me on the other forum if you need to talk.

All,

Sorry for taking the thread off topic. I'm back to lurking on this issue unless someone has specific questions of me.

Regards,

Paul

Phillip Armel
07-30-2003, 07:37 PM
Whoa, lol. I think everyone should calm down about this golfing thing here lol. I mean aikido is about peace and harmony and golfing isn't really hardcore by any means..so there might be a connection.

I think the spiritual aspect is just as important as the martial aspect. I don't think aikido was made for everyone in the world to take. It seems you generally have to want self defense, and with that in mind I would say most aikidoka are a different breed of people, all people want self defense the only problem is that most other arts take this by brutally pulverising the opponet. I don't think I'd learn to much from a super buff over macho crazy man that is always questioning everything and making negative comments=/

kironin
07-31-2003, 01:53 AM
Well, to be honest, I was inclined to go after Ted on that one, but he's a nice guy, and the title speaks for itself. Based on the title of the chapter it's pretty clear that Koichi Tohei doesn't know (at least when he, or his writer, wrote that book) a damn thing about golf.
Actually, I think it's more an indication of what a shoddy translation was done on that book in the late 70's. It does not appear that a native English speaker edited the book at all post-translation.

I don't know how much he knows about baseball, but he apparently was a big help to at least one famous Japanese baseball player.

All this was pre-internet though. :)

As far as Jaimie goes, the website is a bit hard to swallow but it is hardly the downfall of aikido. I wish her the best on pursuing a living doing her two passions.

As someone who had a golf fanatic for a Dad and started golf when I was 7, I do think that Ki principles/Aikido movements can be very beneficial for golfers. Unfortunately for Jamie there already is a very good training system in golf that has a lot in common with Aikido and use of the Japanese sword and the language is a lot clearer and more direct.

http://www.gravitygolf.net/system.htm

Craig

mike lee
07-31-2003, 01:54 AM
I think I will take a break from Aikido for some time and if I find that I miss it I will return.
Where ever you go, there you are. Your cynical self will always follow.

kironin
07-31-2003, 02:23 AM
Saw the demo at the Expo, some nice stuff. I might not combine the two, but hey that's me. Worry less about what others are doing and more about how you personally represent the art. I think the downfall of Aikido is too much discusssion about what other people should or shouldn't do. Now everyone bow in and get back on the mats.
I also saw Jaimie's demo at the Aiki Expo last year. It was okay as far as that sort of thing goes. I haven't seen the edited videos of the demos, was it on there ? It was one small bit of several hours of demos over two nights full of many excellent displays of aikido. I think it's a little much to get upset over it.

You can bash her marketing methods, but I found a good partner when I practiced with her.

Craig

Erik
07-31-2003, 03:16 AM
Actually, I think it's more an indication of what a shoddy translation was done on that book in the late 70's. It does not appear that a native English speaker edited the book at all post-translation.

Or even a Japanese golfer. Fair enough though, but you know what, I guess I was annoyed by the 10th dan over the bow comment.

I don't know how much he knows about baseball, but he apparently was a big help to at least one famous Japanese baseball player.

Like all things of this sort it can get blown up a bit but clearly the two of them did know each other, he did study aikido and Tohei did teach him his ki principles.

I'm glad you mentioned this. It was pre-internet days ;) when I read Heckler's book so I'd forgotten about the chapter on Sadaharu Oh. I did some searching and his book is highly recommended, assuming I can hunt down a copy.

tedehara
07-31-2003, 05:24 AM
Or even a Japanese golfer. Fair enough though, but you know what, I guess I was annoyed by the 10th dan over the bow comment.If you were annoyed by that comment, I sincerely apologize for it. Ki development is part of the aikido tradition. However acceptance or rejection of this concept and to what degree, is an individual choice.

If someone is a 10th Dan, it doesn't mean they're right, just as if someone were a non-ranked beginner, it doesn't mean they're wrong.

I believe if you keep your sense of humor you will go far in aikido. If you lose your sense of humor, you will have to go even farther.

.

.

.

And yes, I do crack myself up - Just throw me in a bin with the other nuts...

:D

kironin
07-31-2003, 10:53 AM
I'm glad you mentioned this. It was pre-internet days ;) when I read Heckler's book so I'd forgotten about the chapter on Sadaharu Oh. I did some searching and his book is highly recommended, assuming I can hunt down a copy.
Is that Heckler's Special Forces book ? I didn't remember that he mentioned it in there. I do remember that there there is a picture of Sadaharu Oh and Tohei Sensei together in one of the older books where he is apparently thanking Tohei for his help.

I found my copy of the "Book of Ki" and reread the golf chapter. He does state clearly at the beginning that he has never played golf and just that he has been able to help several golfers by applying ki principles to their swing. Reading it again, I am amused that it seems to touch on another aikiweb thread on do and jutsu ("Unification of mind and body is fundamental. If the foundations are poorly laid, technique will be of no use.")

Quoting from the chapter,
Several years ago the late Kinya Fujita took me to Kasumigaura Country Club. Mr. Fujita helped establish the club and had also been a member of the board of directors for Aikikai Headquarters. He knew that I had been teaching several professional baseball players in Japan, including Mr. Oh and Mr. Nagashima of the Yomiuri Giants, Taiyo's Mr. Matsubara and Mr. Doi of the Taiheiyo team. So he asked me to give instructions to some professional golfers.

I knew nothing about golf. I walked with Mr. Fujita for nine holes, listening to his explanations. All of the players had long drives. After reaching the green, however, they had to hit the ball twice to get in the hole. "Is it against the rule", I asked. "to hit it into the hole with one stroke?" "No," he answered, "but it is very difficult." So I placed a ball at a spot from which one of them had failed to make the hole. Then I asked Mr. Masao Murokoshi, President of Educational Cinema, to hit the ball into the hole. The distance was six or seven meters. "No", he said, "it is impossible." He was an amateur and therefore was shy in front of the professionals. "Do as I tell you," I said. I then explained to him how to hit. He sank the ball with a single putt. Everyone applauded. Mr. Murokoshi was stunned. He said it was the first time he had made such a long putt in his long career of golf. Then I gave a lecture on how to hit with wood and how to putt. I now will repeat that lecture for you.
What follows is a few pages that to me as a golfer make a lot of sense. I do remember being amused when I first read the chapter title. Since there were several golfers including my sensei in my old dojo, it was an amusement shared. But given the sensible information in the chapter, it just stands out like a translation or editing mistake.

What Peter G. said makes a lot of sense.

Craig

kironin
07-31-2003, 11:12 AM
Michael,

My take is perhaps try another dojo...but in reality you are correct, there is a *lot* of baggage. I just like the mat time enough to put up with it. And to try to minimize my own baggage.
What I am left wondering after reading some of this thread is what art doesn't have baggage ?

and with thousands of students in an art, what is one person's baggage is probably someone else's gold.

How many people as they practice over time haven't had moments of disillusionment, disappointment, or frustration that haven't made them at least think of walking away ?

Commitment is a complex thing.

Craig

Ron Tisdale
07-31-2003, 11:19 AM
You are absolutely correct Craig. And commitment (in the end) is about fighting or relaxing through those tough times, which ever one is called for.

RT

Qatana
07-31-2003, 11:35 AM
Heckler book:

Aikido and the New Warrior

1985, North Atlantic Books, Berkeley CA

'A Zen Way of Baseball" by Sadaharu Oh with Davif Falkner

Cyrijl
07-31-2003, 12:12 PM
Where ever you go, there you are. Your cynical self will always follow.

Yeah, this is a great quote. Instead of saying, "Yes, maybe some people in the aikido world are lame, or stupid," you iimply that there is something wrong with Micheal, who has always been a strong advocate of aikido and its effectiveness. I don't mind this lady connecting gold and aikido. But don't think that is doesn't make alot of non-aikido practioners laugh at all aikido people. That was Michael's point.

Erik
07-31-2003, 12:50 PM
And yes, I do crack myself up - Just throw me in a bin with the other nuts...
I'll meet you there. :)

Bronson
07-31-2003, 01:49 PM
Would you be comfortable with me teaching a defensive handgun tactics course shooting at life like targets dressed in a hakama, a holster, shooting glasses, earmuffs and an NRA hat, advocating my Aiki-Lethal-Defensive-Handgun-Course?

Sign me up!

Bronson

kironin
07-31-2003, 02:05 PM
I'll meet you there. :)
Can I join you guys ?

Craig

Jesse Lee
07-31-2003, 02:08 PM
Can we shoot at life-like targets wearing NRA gear? Better yet, use paintball markers to hunt down real NRA members? I am so there....

TheFallGuy
07-31-2003, 02:53 PM
And yes, I do crack myself up - Just throw me in a bin with the other nuts...
I think I'm already there, I mean I've been bitten a couple times by several of our aikidoka!!!:eek: :D

I don't think that the Golf/ki/Aikido aspect is going to be the end of Aikido. It's a unique application (even if I think it's silly), and someone has marketed it and is trying to make money off of it. There may actually be some positive spins on this. Some golfer may see this and say 'hmmmm what is aikido?' Which may or may not lead to further exploration and perhaps introduction into the art.
Better yet, use paintball markers to hunt down real NRA members? I am so there....

But aren't they armed with real guns and real bullets? I know I am! (As my shirt says -- Got Ammo?) Heh heh :D

(Don't read this if you are ultra-sensitive and have no humor :D )

On another note, reading these forums is better than watching 'Days of our Lives'. The fights and arguments between different people (Michael, Robert, the foreign guy complaining about being beaten up by his Sensei....) Now all we need is for the lusty amorous aikidoka to appear and then we'd all be entertained!!!

Laugh -- it will make you smile!:p:D

Jesse Lee
07-31-2003, 03:28 PM
Now all we need is for the lusty amorous aikidoka to appear and then we'd all be entertained!!!

Looks like you might be all set (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4138)....

Jesse Lee
07-31-2003, 04:43 PM
No, you would have to run around naked and try not to get shot. Costs $10K to play, I hear, but for motivational purposes you would keep $1500 if you get shot, $2500 if you don't. :p

Jesse Lee
07-31-2003, 04:47 PM
Then again, statistics show that most NRA members have huge beer bellies, hairy backs, and few teeth, so maybe this needs to be rethought through....

:eek:

YEME
07-31-2003, 08:54 PM
...there should be an underwater element...if you don't get shot first, your hakama will take you out as you cross the river...

The hairy backs and few teeth...ALL members?

does this mean women included?

Hands up if "ewwww".

opherdonchin
07-31-2003, 09:07 PM
What did this thread used to be about?

jk
07-31-2003, 10:39 PM
Running around naked, I think. I'm all for that...

opherdonchin
07-31-2003, 11:50 PM
Oh yes, I remember, people not taking their Aikido seriously enough.

Ah, well ...

YEME
08-01-2003, 01:21 AM
What did this thread used to be about?
I don't think we're in Aiki anymore Opher...

opherdonchin
08-01-2003, 09:45 AM
Glad to see you're with me Jaime. :D

By the way, has anyone taken any of these Kiai-Golf classes, or does anyone know anyone who has. I'd love to hear what's behind the marketing.

Jesse Lee
08-01-2003, 12:22 PM
You seem to have a very humorous picture of the NRA I guess they are not that big in that starbucks you hang out in eh? :p

Heh, well, they're big out here too and I am lucky enough to be friends with about half of 'em. Which is always good for a chuckle, over a random grande no-foam extra-whip nonfat 190-degrees machiatto-mezzo-espresso half-caff-half-decaff carafe....

Thor's Hammer
08-03-2003, 11:39 AM
I hope hakama wearing doesn't catch on... it's so hard to go to the bathroom when you're wearing one!

kironin
08-09-2003, 09:27 PM
By the way, has anyone taken any of these Kiai-Golf classes, or does anyone know anyone who has. I'd love to hear what's behind the marketing.
Well, here it is from the horses mouth...

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/article.asp?ArticleID=494

It's a long interview but she does talk about how she teaches the clinics.

JZ: I teach them in an aikido way. I do bring my black belt uke to my golf seminars and I demonstrate real aikido to my golfers. Sometimes I teach them a technique or two, but it's not like a regular aikido class. But I teach them a lot of energy works and I relate them to golf. Then some people want to start training aikido. Now I teach in classes which are called "Aikido for tennis and golf," and they practice from aikido. ...