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opherdonchin
07-17-2003, 02:27 PM
What is 'meaningful competition' in the martial arts world to you? Dancing, debate....it should be fightingGosh, I have to admit that dancing and debate both sound like more fun to me. Dancing, especially. I love dancing.

willy_lee
07-17-2003, 03:42 PM
Gosh, I have to admit that dancing and debate both sound like more fun to me. Dancing, especially. I love dancing.
I do too! What kind of dancing do you do, if you don't mind me asking?

=wl

paw
07-17-2003, 03:45 PM
Gosh, I have to admit that dancing and debate both sound like more fun to me. Dancing, especially. I love dancing.
I'm not allowed to dance. I keep seeing all these openings for uchi-mata.....

Qatana
07-17-2003, 03:57 PM
hey Willy

if you wanna try Argentine Tango, its just like Aikido (sorta) i'll go with...and Opher, i do occasionally get to Balto...

opherdonchin
07-17-2003, 04:41 PM
Well, Jo, if you get to Baltimore please do drop by the dojo and maybe afterwards we can go out dancing.

Willy, most of my dancing recently has been contact improv. I'm not much of a dancer and I don't have much experience, but it's an amazing form.

Qatana
07-17-2003, 04:55 PM
Ooooh contact improv with ukemi!!! me too, me too i wanna do that!

willy_lee
07-17-2003, 05:06 PM
Jo, I think tango is very cool, but I don't think my wife would be too happy taking up yet another activity that takes up my time and keeps me away -- don't think she hass time or interest in it either, so it wouldn't work to do it together either.

Contact improv.... you know about the historical links between contact improv and aikido, right? In a sense, contact improv IS ukemi....

I actually went to school at Oberlin, where contact improv was introduced. I took a couple aikido classes there as well.

=wl

Qatana
07-17-2003, 05:19 PM
Well, if she suddenly develops an interest, let me know. I know all the tango teachers in San Francisco.

Just want to widen the "gene pool" as tango dancers are cliquish & exclusive. I need to get more Aikido people & more Rennaisance Faire people into the mix...if i can just get them away from swing dancing long enuff to try...

Qatana
07-17-2003, 06:47 PM
no, no the swing dancers are Faire people.

i'm also looking for crossover Faire/Aikido types. Might have located one, a Fool who takes forward rolls on parade. it can make for great Street Theater...little tiny me tossing the Fool around the shire...

if anyone's interested Faire is running in Novato CA thru August 10. see www.forestfaire.com...

Qatana
07-18-2003, 09:54 AM
just that most of the folk i know who do contact improv in this Bay area are too touchy-feely new-agey.

I was an Improv soloist for a long, long time, with concentration on technique & most of the contact jammers only care how it feels rather than how it works. Too many people "teaching" "spiritual integretive celtic inspirational native american tree loving swirlydance"

which wasn't what we were doing in Modern Dance at the College-if i could find That I'd be there...

just call me a disillusioned Deadhead...

willy_lee
07-18-2003, 11:54 AM
I'm not allowed to dance. I keep seeing all these openings for uchi-mata.....
and
My old judo instructor had a story about that, except it was o-soto-gari. There wasn't a second date.
Maybe Paul and Sean's instructor should take up swing dancing instead? Sometimes its okay to throw your partner.

;)

=wl

opherdonchin
07-18-2003, 02:40 PM
I was an Improv soloist for a long, long time, with concentration on technique & most of the contact jammers only care how it feels rather than how it works.The two teachers I've had out here have been very down to earth. One of them, in particular, has extensive connections in the bay area as he spent a number of years out there. I know that he did a lot of training out there with Peggy Hackney (http://www.imsmovement.com/People/Peggy.html), but I'll see him this weekend and I can ask who he would recommend going to for a less 'spiritual' contact improv experience, if you like.

Qatana
07-18-2003, 03:00 PM
hey thanks!

Erik
07-18-2003, 03:37 PM
Willy, at a visit to your dojo, and in one of Richard's classes nonetheless, I came across an improv guy. Since I'm sure you know Richard's propensity for rigidly structuring every detail of a class :rolleyes: you can imagine how it went. The improv guy would spin and flip around in all kinds of bizarre ways. The movements were such that he did have a defense mechanism from it.

I finally got tired of it and started pointing out that if he did this and I wasn't nice his arm wouldn't work right for a few weeks. It was interesting nonetheless as he'd have made a hell of an uke, eventually.

As to dance, sometimes in the early 80's there was some kind of aikidance show in these parts. I've seen video of it and, well, it's kind of hard to explain.

Erik
07-18-2003, 03:42 PM
But around here there is so much new-age crap it is impossible to discern the truly spiritual rather than slapping any of the new age keywords such as "celtic" or "wiccan" or "natural".
In Petaluma? No way I'm buying that one.

:)

Qatana
07-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Well i meant in the Bay Area in general but yes we have plenty of it all over Sonoma County. Come on up & i'll take you on a tour of bulletin boards...

Janet Rosen
07-18-2003, 03:50 PM
Jo, he's another one of us locals, pulling your leg :-)

Qatana
07-18-2003, 04:10 PM
I know he's local but people who don't live here still think of Petaluma as "the provinces".Some don't even consider it part of the "Bay Area" tho i know that at least according to the San Francisco Health Dept, Petaluma is definitly Bay Area.

I've lived here six years and have seen the town evolve from living in the '50's al the way into the late 80's....very interesting mix of farmers, hippies & techies around here.

Janet Rosen
07-18-2003, 04:27 PM
heheh. Apologies for the off topic senior moment! I remember being on a food conspiracy buying run to the dairies up there the very week they made the stretch between Novato and Petaluma freeway. Got totally lost and waaaay late!

to return to the thread.....how one "tests" one's aikido, imo, depends entirely on what one's goals are.

Qatana
07-18-2003, 04:31 PM
Well before my time!

I test my Aikido by showing up in class three times a week.

Erik
07-18-2003, 04:38 PM
Jo, he's another one of us locals, pulling your leg :-)
That's right and I've even driven right by Petaluma.

willy_lee
07-18-2003, 06:27 PM
Don't have time for more than a quick reply but just wanted to note that I'm really enjoying this thread. Jo, that bit about the special keywords and the SOAP is right on! I remember some experiences with ceremonial mud in college -- it was fun but I probably would give it a pass nowadays. :)

Erik, hope I catch you if you visit again. Been interested by your posts for a while. Richard doesn't teach classes here anymore, I think the commute got to be not worth it -- too bad as I enjoyed his classes, they were different.

Dont' get up to Petaluma much myself, but I do have friends in Sebastopol, does that count?

=wl

opherdonchin
07-18-2003, 11:20 PM
Hey Jo, I understood exactly what you meant although we are pretty free of those things here in the D.C. area. On the down side, there's not all that much activity.

I wonder if this thread will ever get back on track. I also wonder when Jun will come by and post one of his, "This thread is being moved to purgatory" notes.

I like it just the way it is.

Erik
07-19-2003, 12:04 AM
Richard doesn't teach classes here anymore, I think the commute got to be not worth it -- too bad as I enjoyed his classes, they were different.
Yes, different, that sounds really right. :)

Actually, I'm fish feeding and house guarding for a friend in San Leandro. Amazingly enough, and to my great surprise, I've gotten my lazy butt out and done some aikido. It was totally unexpected, seriously. I had not planned on City Aikido, however, but things remain fluid. I'll PM if the urge strikes.

Nacho
07-19-2003, 12:24 PM
hey Willy

if you wanna try Argentine Tango, its just like Aikido (sorta) i'll go with...and Opher, i do occasionally get to Balto...
Do you want to talk about street effectiveness? go and learn Tango, it's the ultimate street effectiveness! in "caminito" you can see them dancing in the street and they earn some money, specially on vacations

Qatana
07-20-2003, 12:14 AM
don't knock it till you've tried it.

Nacho
07-20-2003, 12:30 PM
don't knock it till you've tried it.
what do you mean? I think you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I'm from Buenos Aires so I've surely tried it

Erik
07-20-2003, 06:40 PM
what do you mean? I think you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I'm from Buenos Aires so I've surely tried it
I think she meant that once you've been to Petaluma you never go back. :D

Still trying to see if I can get Jo to grind her teeth into oblivion.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

Qatana
07-20-2003, 10:47 PM
c'mon Erik i'll take you on the cultural tour of Petaluma. if i can find it!

no, Ignacio, i did not realise you are Argentinian. I do know that when i go to a milonga i like to dance with the old street dancers...

Erik
07-21-2003, 12:43 AM
c'mon Erik i'll take you on the cultural tour of Petaluma. if i can find it!
The culture or Petaluma?

Badabing!

Doesn't your school have pillars in the middle of the mat?

Nacho
07-21-2003, 01:16 AM
c'mon Erik i'll take you on the cultural tour of Petaluma. if i can find it!

no, Ignacio, i did not realise you are Argentinian. I do know that when i go to a milonga i like to dance with the old street dancers...
The thing is I was not laughing at the street dancers. I was flattering them, they are great, I was laughing about this forums that always ends in a "street effective" debate.

Qatana
07-21-2003, 10:05 AM
yes, i do agree.

Also most people don't know that Tango is a martial art...or used to be...

Erik my dojo is in a ballet studio, used to be at the Kempo dojo but i never trained there.

Culture? we got two sushi bars now...

opherdonchin
07-21-2003, 10:48 AM
Also most people don't know that Tango is a martial art...or used to be...I didn't know that, either. It's interesting that someone would bother to develop a martial art in which one always partnered with a member of the opposite sex. Speaking of 'street effective' ...

Anyway, Jo did you get my personal note about Contact?

Qatana
07-21-2003, 12:14 PM
Yes i got it.Thanks.

AFAIK re tango-originally it was a martial art, developed from soccer, and was done by men only.However there was something like a 15-1 male-female ratio in Argentina in the beginning of the 20th century and somebody realized that if they turned it into a dance at least they would have the opportunity to get within arms reach of a woman.

So originally it was more like grappling with kicks.Find the "partner's" center and manipulate his balance with your center while trying to trip each other.]

Any wonder i want to combine the two??

I'm sure Ignacio will know better than i regarding the historical accuracy of this.

Erik
07-21-2003, 01:31 PM
Erik my dojo is in a ballet studio, used to be at the Kempo dojo but i never trained there.
I heard a rumor that there are something like 5 aikido dojos in Petaluma and something like 9 in Santa Rosa. I'm too lazy to check the dojo search so are those numbers even kind of right?

Qatana
07-21-2003, 02:38 PM
AFAIK in Petaluma are my dojo-Aikido of Petaluma, Bob Noha,Sensei( 37 year student of Robert Nadeau)

and Two Rock Dojo, Richard Heckler, Sensei.

There are a couple Karate, some TKD, some JKD, traditional European fencing....

i know there are several in Santa Rosa but nothing about them. One in Rohnert Park. One in Sonoma, my dojo went on a field trip there last week. hmmm, one in Sebastopol, one in Graton. Just off the top of my head...

Erik
07-21-2003, 03:44 PM
The post thing was at Centerfield now that I think about it. You know those little Northern California cities all look alike.

Qatana
07-21-2003, 04:38 PM
um Graton has two stores, two restaurants and a dojo.

We have sushi and 2 dojos. Thats the difference between the 2nd biggest city & the smallest in the county.

Nacho
07-21-2003, 09:00 PM
AFAIK re tango-originally it was a martial art, developed from soccer, and was done by men only.However there was something like a 15-1 male-female ratio in Argentina in the beginning of the 20th century and somebody realized that if they turned it into a dance at least they would have the opportunity to get within arms reach of a woman.

So originally it was more like grappling with kicks.Find the "partner's" center and manipulate his balance with your center while trying to trip each other.]

Any wonder i want to combine the two??

I'm sure Ignacio will know better than i regarding the historical accuracy of this
Sorry Jo I didn't know that, so I started looking for this story in some Tango web pages, and Tango history but I didn't find it. Anyway I can't relate the movements of Tango to a martial art because they are balanced to dance, but they are way off balanced to attack-defend.

Qatana
07-21-2003, 11:12 PM
I heard the story from several of my teachers, no idea of the historical accuracy. Saw it portrayed in "dance" in the show "Forever Tango"

yes, now it is set up as a dance but that is because no one is trying to take the other's center but to "join" them. But i have seen men tango together and do exactly that, but they were polite enpough not to throw each other on the dance floor.

Still trying to figure out if ukemi is possible in high heels...

Nacho
07-22-2003, 02:30 PM
I commented this to my grandfather, he didn't know that either. You said that it was a martial art developed from soccer, but Tango is older than soccer here in Argentina.

Qatana
07-22-2003, 02:52 PM
So then where do the kicks (ganchos,boleos) come from, or did they come After soccer came to Argentina?

Perhaps they all developed from each other?

Nacho
07-22-2003, 08:54 PM
I don't know, maybe they are all nothing but sensual movements... at the begging it was just for the lower social classes, dancing that and talking "lunfardo".

A kind of aproximation to martial art here I think, were the gauchos, they stablished competitions or duels, with a knife in one hand, and a lot of cloth around the other to use as a shield, that combats could be until the first mark (cut to the face) or to death

But in soccer you're not supposed to kick or sweep another one's leg

Qatana
07-22-2003, 09:17 PM
no you kick the Ball in soccer. look at a gancho-you are kicking the ball behind you and to the side.a boleo can get the ball from behind you to in front of you. an umagi kicks the ball to a teammate behind you.

translate to two men grappling, then they become leg sweeps.

translate to dance, they become sensuous movement.

i Studied Tango.this is information given by teachers from Argentina.maybe they don't know their own history?

Nacho
07-23-2003, 08:58 PM
no you kick the Ball in soccer. look at a gancho-you are kicking the ball behind you and to the side.a boleo can get the ball from behind you to in front of you. an umagi kicks the ball to a teammate behind you
Well... in any kind of dance if you put a ball at your feet you will end kicking it to some place.. :)
i Studied Tango.this is information given by teachers from Argentina.maybe they don't know their own history?
May be, I know people who know a lot about Tango and they never heard that story.

The japanese guy from the laundry shop does not necessary know aikido for being japanese.

Qatana
07-23-2003, 09:23 PM
"The japanese guy from the laundry shop does not necessary know aikido for being japanese."

so how does being from Argentina make you the expert? by this reasoning the Japanese guy ought to know more about aikido than my American -born Sensei even though he's been studying aikido for 37 years?

do you actually Dance Tango? or did you just ask someone you know?are they professional Tango teachers or dance historians?

my teachers can probably all trace their lineage back to the streets, as well as i can trace my lineage back to O'Sensei.

I really don't think they made up an interesting story just to sell more dance classes....

Nacho
07-23-2003, 10:54 PM
Jo, I'm not saying I'm the expert. Look at my post, I said "may be".

I would like to know the sources of this version of the history of Tango, I know your Teachers are your source, but where did they read it, or heard, etc.

Don't feel deffensive i've never heard that story and some people who know a lot about Tango didn't either, so it's normal I'm asking skeptical about it.

Qatana
07-24-2003, 08:42 AM
well i did start this out by saying "As Far As I Know"

you have heard things, i have heard things.i may have some time to do this research. I may not...if i do, i'll send along the information.

Qatana
07-24-2003, 11:24 AM
ok here's what i've found-

Tango as "martial art"- because there were so few women in Argentina at all, the only way to get near one was to be a really good dancer. The only way to get good was to practice (funny,that) and who was there to practice with? Other men. So while they were waiting on line in the bordellos, or hanging out in the street, there was usually a Tango orquestra playing so the men would dance. This became a kind of competiton because of course the women would choose their partners by how well their dancing looked.So it was more of a "competitive"art then "martial".Some have even said that the only "true" Tango was danced between men, dancing with a woman was, as stated, to get physically near one at all...

regarding steps being soccer moves, seems i may have gotten it backwards.this from a TaNgo author in Buenos Aires:

"Young dancers today use names for some moves which they

have taken from football one way or another. I've never heard an

older dancer use them though.'

This i think refers to people who started dancing tango in the 40s as "older" and who started post 60s as "younger"

i think we need to remain both open minded and sceptical about the "true" history of Tango.And i still think Tango & Aikido would blend beautifully....

Nacho
07-24-2003, 03:00 PM
Well Jo I'm glad this discussion here is becoming constructive.
So it was more of a "competitive"art then "martial".
But I disagree here, I don't see how competitive makes it martial, they are two very different concepts

And i still think Tango & Aikido would blend beautifully....

I think it's important to blend in each one's self every thing we do, martial arts, sports, dancing, writing, etc. If you want to blend Aikido and Tango it's great then, that defines you and your personality.. that's the most interesting part of all of this.

Qatana
07-24-2003, 03:21 PM
'So it was more of a "competitive"art then "martial".

But I disagree here, I don't see how competitive makes it martial, they are two very different concepts'

um Ignacio, i just said OK tango is a competitive art INSTEAD of Martial. Sure you want to disagree with that?

Nacho
07-24-2003, 10:01 PM
haha... no, I don't disagree with that, I didn't understand you.. I thought it was competitive ==> martial. Sorry my english isn't good enough