Cross-training

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[Unregistered]

Hello!

I've been doing Aikido for about a year and a half and..
It is summer and as I have a bit of extra time I was thinking about joining a karate dojo near where I live and take a few classes, prehaps continuing if I can fit it into my scheduele (without, of course, cutting Aikido.)
My reasons for doing this:
I would really like to learn more about attacking. The only punch I know is munetsuki, and I have found that it often is not so effective if you don't have a knife.
I want to see what martial arts are like from the view of non-aikido people and how the training is different. Aikido is the only martial art I have ever done.
I would like to learn how to kick.
And umm...
I think it would be interesting to experience the force and force type of fighting head on. I have seen countless times how Aikido works but I would really like to see what happens when I don't use Aikido and how that is different.

What I was wondering is,
What do people think about training in something like Karate while doing Aikido?
Would it be good for my Ukemi or mess it up?
And other thoughts as to my impending decision.
Thank you for listening, er, reading.

[opherdonchin]

I have found that it often is not so effective if you don't have a knife.Cool. How'd you find that out?

Anyway, lots of threads on corss training in the archives. I should look them up, but I'll apologize instead and let you do it.

One consistent piece of advice is: talk to your sensei about it.

[Unregistered]

oh sorry. Thanks for telling me.

[aikido_fudoshin]

I've talked to a few people about this and the majority feel as though you should become proficient in one martial art before attending to others. On the other hand, your reasons for wanting to try out karate seem understandable and if it is something you want to do for fun then why not go for it? You'll probably end up seeing how powerful and efficient Aikido really is.

[akiy]

This thread has been moved from the Anonymous forum to the Training forum.

Please note that the Anonymous forum is intended for "delicate" subject matters for which people have a need or want to keep their identities from being revealed. I encourage people to keep this in mind before starting a thread in the Anonymous forum.

-- Jun

[Kevin Wilbanks]

I think what Jun is trying to say is that, unless you are in high-level goverment operative, or want to tell us about a problem you're having with your penile prosthesis, there's no reason for the cloak and dagger. If the relatively mundane question you ask causes you to feel embarassment and the need find a hiding place, consider self-esteem workshops in lieu of the Karate. C'mon man, let your freak flag fly.

[Anders Bjonback]

I've been doing aikido for almost a year now, and I took up tai chi six months into it. After awhile, although it had many benifits, I found it too confusing to take two arts at once, and I found that I would be standing in a tai chi manner when I should be standing in an aikido manner, making what I was doing much less effective than it otherwise would have been. I've now quit tai chi, and will probably take it up again later, when I'm more experienced and will not have the two arts bleed into eachother in a counter-productive manner.

Before I started aikido, I did ju jitsu for two to three years, and I still find that it influenced my aikido negativly even though I've quit it. The negative influence is most evident in randori, in which sometimes end up struggling or wresling, trying to use (really bad) ju jistu, engaging with one person instead of the whole group.

In randori class I have also seen people taking karate and kung fu, and have problems with fighting and engaging too much with one person because that's what they've been training in.

My advice would be to wait until you're more experienced, maybe a few years or so, so you're body is more familiar with aikido movements when you take up the other art.

[Sita Nanthavong]

:)

i started two arts at the same time. karate (tang soo do), and aikido.

i wasn't getting enough hands on in karate... so i took up aikido.

it does get very confusing at first... but if you keep an "empty" cup, and forget that you know aikido when you're in karate, or that you know karate when you're in aikido... it works best.

best of luck!

[jxa127]

Hi all,

I've wondered about cross-training and why so many people find it tempting.

A number of people in my dojo, including me, have prior experience in a striking art like tae kwon do. We've all moved on, for one reason or another, to aikido. We don't cross-train, and we focus on the traditional aikido attacks -- though we strive to make them strong and centered attacks. In other words, despite our previous experience, we haven't found anything lacking with the traditional aikido attacks.

Another reason people cite for wanting to cross-train is that they feel aikido does not offer something that they think they need. While each art has its advantages and disadvantages, my feeling is that aikido is a complete martial art for my needs. People will say that aikido does not use strikes; we practice using strikes as nage during techniques. People say that aikido can't be used aggressively. We sometimes train in an aggressive manner with nage initiating with an attack and then using uke's response to create the technique. We also sometimes preemptively throw uke.

Of course we still work toward peaceful resolution of conflict as our goal. More specifically, although we sometimes look at how to cause our attackers damage, we feel it is important to not harm our attackers if we can avoid it. What we don't do is the stuff I learned in TKD -- blocking strikes and counter-striking. My TKD training was good, and it actually came in handy once or twice, but I hadn't learned how to immobilize and pin, just how to strike and harm. Aikido gives me more tools to use in a conflict than I got from TKD.

Now, I only trained in TKD for a couple of years, so I'm not sure what more advanced study would have taught me. I also feel that my TKD experience has been beneficial for me as an aikidoka. The contrast between the to arts has been informative, and there are similarities.

Having said all that, there are those who cross-train, and they feel the additional training really enhances their aikido. A lot of it, I'm sure, depends on their attitude toward the additional training.

So, if you're looking at a different art, ask yourself, (1) what you feel aikido is lacking, and (2) how the additional training, from another art is going to help your aikido. You may find that what you feel is lacking in aikido really isn't once you get more experience. You may also find that studying something like karate can help you be a better uke.

Regards,

-Drew

[Lyle Bogin]

Take the karate lessons. So many great masters studied with many teachers of different styles...why not you too?

[Pretoriano]

I spar often with my Karate Kyodai Sensei who was in last year Diamond Championship in USA,

he fight extremely fast, very relaxed, gives no clues on where the attack is coming, using deceptive hands and feet movements, recovering his center real quickly, then, do Aikido is a pleasure, I suggest every one to crosstrain whenever they can, their Aikido will improve several times. Just read post on those people who has attended Systema seminars and they found new ways to approach combat and how to move and redirect energy (same old stuff from a Russian perspective), wise is to get some of this secrets and incorporate to our own martial development.

Pretoriano

[kensparrow]

I've never trained in multiple arts at the same time but I am always glad that I studied karate before taking up aikido. Karate gave me many useful skills i.e. an understanding of maai, timing and how to launch a committed attack and it also makes me appreciate what an incredible and unique art aikido is that much more.

[Jesse Lee]

Before I started aikido, I did ju jitsu for two to three years, and I still find that it influenced my aikido negativly even though I've quit it. The negative influence is most evident in randori, in which sometimes end up struggling or wresling, trying to use (really bad) ju jistu, engaging with one person instead of the whole group.

Interesting, I cross train in BJJ and I notice the exact same thing, in randori. Also I notice a gnarly BJJ-induced desire in myself to crunch up and protect my center when a throw comes on, r/t giving in, relaxing, and going with the flow.

The cross training is totally great, but I do need to stay aware of a few things like this that work against the aikido grain.

[Kalle Koskinen]

I have asked one question from every Aikido teacher I've met and had the chance to talk with. How to use Aikido against a boxers movement and quick jabs? Most of them didn't have any clue about it and they suggested various things that wouldn't work.

I used to box for a while and I think it was very useful to me. I know how boxers move and how they propably would attack me. By this, I can think of those techniques that would/wouldn´t work very well for a boxer.

If I want to defend against kicks, I would train few efficient and most common kicks. Just to understand the way how "kicking man" thinks and moves.

So I think cross-training is very useful if you do it in a right way. Aikido is the number one choice for me, but I do want to know a few useful bits from other Arts so I can look things in a bigger perspective. There isn't such thing as useless information.

(writing english is bit hard for me and I do hope you understand what I'm trying to say. There are lots of things I cant say that I would like to, because my vocabulary isn't that large. But I take this as a good chance to practise and improve my english.)

[sanosuke]

go for it, you'll find a new point of view and experience foryour aikido training by training other art. I cross train my aikido with tae kwon-do and a bit bjj, in the end, though, i find that aikido is the most suitable either for my body, my purpose in learning martial art and my expectations towards further learning.

[David Yap]

Karate gave me many useful skills i.e. an understanding of maai, timing and how to launch a committed attack and it also makes me appreciate what an incredible and unique art aikido is that much more.
Yes. Go for it.
Karate as seen through the eyes of an aikidoka -

Standing face-to-face with an expert karateka like Ushiro Sensei was an enlightening and humbling experience. The first and most obvious surprise was the incredible speed with which Ushiro Sensei delivered his punches and kicks. Watching a karate tournament or a boxing match on television and standing opposite a highly-skilled opponent are two entirely different matters.

It became apparent to me that the level of speed and timing with which someone of Ushiro Sensei's ability moves precludes any possibility of a "response" to the attack. In other words, the attack is so well-timed and executed that there is no time or space left to recognize and respond after the attack has been launched. The only possible alternative is to fully anticipate the timing of the opponent's attack and initiate the movement oneself. This is a dimension of hyper-awareness often mentioned and demonstrated by aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba; however, for most aikidoka such a level of execution remains an unreachable ideal.

Setting aside a discussion of whether or not it is theoretically possible for an aikidoka to deal with such speedy attacks, the reality of the matter is that it is highly unlikely that he would succeed simply because aikido practice tends to be slow-paced by comparison. How can one reasonably expect to suddenly muster the skills to handle the powerful and rapid attacks of expert karateka or boxers when the pace of our aikido training is so casual? Realistically speaking, either we must scale down our expectations of the effectiveness of aikido techniques in an actual confrontation, or modify our practice to include safe training against rapid, powerful attacks.

To be able to practice in such a manner, it would first be necessary for aikidoka to acquire the basic attacking skills that are so sorely lacking now. This would mean incorporating rudimentary punching and kicking skills into our aikido practice. I am sure that a proposal to introduce karate or boxing type movements into aikido practice would be controversial and meet much resistance. Yet I see no other alternative. The weak, unrealistic nature of attacks in aikido training remains one of the great weaknesses of the art and is one of the most common causes of criticism.

As all practitioners know, aikido practice as it is now is based on a sort of "gentlemen's agreement." We execute relatively simple, slow attacks and patiently wait to be thrown. Such an approach may well be necessary for training beginners and for the sake of safety, but advanced students need to confront increasingly stronger attacks and unpredictable maneuvers on the part of the attacker in order to continue their progress.

During our visit to Ushiro Sensei we were accompanied by Yoshinori Kono Sensei who demonstrated an interesting two-hand maneuver that he is currently working on to deal with rapid attacks. It is an interesting approach and, for want of a better description, it looked something like an abbreviated iriminage. If my understanding is correct, the stimulus to develop this movement came as a direct result of the training exchanges between Ushiro Sensei and Kono Sensei. Personally speaking, my eyes have been opened to the many benefits of friendly exchange practices among budoka of different styles with an eye toward self-improvement and mutual understanding.
Just attend each class with an empty cup. Enjoy!!