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AikiWeb System
07-18-2003, 04:03 PM
7/18/2003 2:59pm [from Jun Akiyama (akiy@aikiweb.com)]
Website: http://www.ccvfilm.com/

Richard Moon (5th dan, Aikido of Marin (http://www.aikidoofmarin.com/), City Aikido (http://www.cityaikido.com/)) has released a DVD entitled, "Aikido in Three Easy Lessons." The CCV Film (http://www.ccvfilm.com/) website describes the DVD as, "Based on the popular book by Richard Moon, Aikido In Three Easy Lessons is a movie on DVD that teaches powerful life skills from Aikido, the Art of Peace." You can see the trailer for the DVD here (http://homepage.mac.com/ccvfilm/iMovieTheater18.html).

shihonage
07-18-2003, 04:08 PM
I larned speling in 3 ez lesons its workin out greit.

mj
07-18-2003, 07:11 PM
One of the cheapest Aiki products I have ever seen advertised.

shihonage
07-23-2003, 02:40 PM
I have ordered this DVD a moment ago, because I want to write a scathing review of it.

IMO, trying to lure people into Aikido PRIMARILY by it's "beneficial social side-effects" is wrong, because people will start primarily looking for these side-effects, while forgetting the fact that without sincere training, they won't find any.

P.S. They misspelled the name of O Sensei on their page.

Erik
07-23-2003, 03:51 PM
IMO, trying to lure people into Aikido PRIMARILY by it's "beneficial social side-effects" is wrong, because people will start primarily looking for these side-effects, while forgetting the fact that without sincere training, they won't find any.


I've found it to be the other way around. You either look for, and work on something, or you don't. If you do, then you might derive the benefits you hope to achieve, if you don't, then unless you get lucky or have good genetics then you don't. There might, however, be more than one method of working on something and many different levels of there to get to.

This is just my own experience but I've not seen the slightest evidence that sincere (I presume you mean martial) training produces anything but people who can do that type of training and it can have very unpleasant side-effects as well. On the other hand, I've seen no evidence that pure spiritual-seeking as such, produces anything remotely related to martial skills.

To be honest, I've always found this an amusing dichotomy with our art. On the one hand, we have people who think love and harmony will allow them to lovingly disarm a 6' 200+ pound coked out guy and on the other end are those who feel that if they throw their uke so hard they plow 3' into the ground they will become a more peaceful person than those who only put them 1' into the ground. Better harmony through harder contact.

What really amuses me is how much the two extremes dislike each other.

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/waffen/violent-smiley-026.gif

shihonage
07-23-2003, 04:32 PM
Well, the peace-loving hippy who reaches shodan and is unable to do a mune tsuki that actually connects, is a massive failure in training, to paraphrase another poster on these forums.

Nobody's asking for hard throws - just honest training would suffice.

adrian
07-24-2003, 01:11 AM
What a crap, never seen such a thing, ,no wonder people dont believe in Aikido and think of it to be some dancing stuff.

Frankly i've watched a few randori movies os some Senseis and never seen something really honest. But THIS is a real crap.

YEME
07-24-2003, 01:43 AM
here I was contemplating quitting because I don't feel I'm getting anywhere with my aikido...

and then I get to see this fine footage of downward strikes that aim for nowhere in particular...and I've seen better throws in an episode of Get Smart.

so i'm starting to feel a little better.still not utterly convinced that I should renew membership but somehow heartened by the exposure to this hack...

remind me to send this man a thank-you note.

Erik
07-24-2003, 02:19 AM
Well, the peace-loving hippy who reaches shodan and is unable to do a mune tsuki that actually connects, is a massive failure in training, to paraphrase another poster on these forums.

Nobody's asking for hard throws - just honest training would suffice.
I don't disagree with this.

By the way, look out for a PM.

Michael Willers
07-24-2003, 06:34 AM
When you check our the trailer, watch the ukes -- each one seems to take a fall without feeling "the need," i.e., they have offered up their arm and hit the ground without any technique or power on nage's part.

People ask, "Will Aikido work?" Not this kind of Aikido.

Why is aikiweb trying to peddle this hogwash to us?

Carl Simard
07-24-2003, 08:11 AM
OH NO!!!

It means I have attained and paid for hundreds of class for nothing!!! I could have learned everything in 3 lessons!!! And in an easy way, no more hard, sweating training 3 times a week!!!

So, I will left the dojo, buy this DVD, and learn evrything in 3 lessons sitting on the sofa.

I let you guys continue learning the hard way!!!

JimAde
07-24-2003, 09:10 AM
Ok. Devil's advocate time.

I have never heard of this gentleman before and have never read his book, seen the whole DVD or any of that good stuff.

I'd just like to say that it's sometimes really hard to both do good randori and get it on film correctly.

I'm also curious what the "3 easy lessons" are. From the little bit of info on the site, I suspect the book is about applying Aiki principles to daily life, not actual Aikido technique. I could be mistaken.

I agree that the techniques shown aren't the most convincing or informative I've ever seen, but is that what the DVD is about?

And I don't think Jun is trying to "peddle" this DVD, just serving as a source of info and letting us judge for ourselves. His post didn't say "run right out and buy it."

justinm
07-24-2003, 09:37 AM
Hey, you are all being rather harsh! I've certainly heard of Richard Moon sensei, and I believe he is a very well respected teacher. Although I have never met him, I would very much like to, based on his writing. And this is from a Yosh guy.

What I saw in the video trailer is very different to how I train, but I am sure I could learn a lot from the DVD.

The 3 easy lessons as described on the Aikido of Marin website barely touch on aikido 'technique' as I understand it, so if that is what you are looking for, I am afraid you are just going to have to get down the dojo for that bit, however I do not think that is the purpose of the 3 lessons.

Justin

Larry Feldman
07-24-2003, 10:16 AM
I have met Richard Moon, and trained with him at one of his seminars about 14+ years ago. He had a way of teaching 'freestyle' Aikido that I found interesting, especially since I train in a very structured style (then and)now. I recently thought about trying to get back into some of the things he showed.

His Aikido was good, he is the real thing - and he was an interesting guy. I enjoyed meeting and training with him.

I know he has done work for a long time with a lot of people and organizations about 'Aikido off the mat'.

People come to Aikido for a lot of reasons. Some stay for reasons that they never imagined when they started. Some find their practice affecting their life 'off the mat' - a wonderful thing.

I don't have the DVD, I don't get a royalty, so I don't care if you buy it or not. Be happy Jun is letting you know what is commercially available in the Aikido world, information that is not always readily available.

Aleksey from your post it looks like you are in the San Francisco area. If you have any doubts about Richard's Aikido, why not just go check out one of his classes.

shihonage
07-24-2003, 02:08 PM
Aleksey from your post it looks like you are in the San Francisco area. If you have any doubts about Richard's Aikido, why not just go check out one of his classes.
This is not about this particular instructor's level of proficiency in Aikido.

This is about the level of proficiency in Aikido of the people who will start studying it based on the "social effects" that he seems to be using to sell Aikido.

These people are going to be given the wrong idea about Aikido from the very start, and thanks to people like him, this art will get more and more polluted by men and women who view it as something coming from a new-age spirituality fad, and before you know it, any remains of martial effectiveness in the art will be lost for good.

In 10 years, we'll have an art which combines Aikido and Feng Shui for ultimate enlightement in the comfort of your own home.

Only 3 easy payments of $39.95 .

:eek:

Qatana
07-24-2003, 02:29 PM
And they will start studying it and find out for themselves whether it will give them what they are looking for. If it works for them why do you have a problem with hteir reasons for training?

But of course you know much better about Aikido and what it is for than someone who has been studying and teaching it since before you were born.

If you want to train so you can kick ass, thats your busines. If i want to train because it might make me a more functional human being, that is MY business.

shihonage
07-24-2003, 02:53 PM
And they will start studying it and find out for themselves whether it will give them what they are looking for. If it works for them why do you have a problem with their reasons for training?
Their reasons are none of my concern.

No one can be denied their freedom in studying whatever they want.

However it can not be denied that a large influx of people who will treat Aikido like it is Tai Chi will eventually result in some of them becoming instructors who will eventually be teaching the (formerly) martial art of Aikido like it is Tai Chi.

There's nothing I can do to stop this from happening, but I surely do find it upsetting when I see people actually, willingly, pushing the process along.

As for your comparison of knowledge, it is not entirely relevant.

To make a grossly overemphasized analogy,

Adolf Hitler knew a lot more about warfare than I can ever possibly do.

However that does not disqualify me from passing judgement on the fact that his actions in the said field were terribly wrong.

Qatana
07-24-2003, 03:32 PM
my comparison of knowledge is not relevant? what exactly Qualifies you to "pass judgement" on Any situation or person?

the word "Judgement" in my dictionary (Oxford English) is defined as "informed decision"

Exactly how much experience of Tai Chi or Feng Shui do you have?

"judgement" also implies right or wrong. SO once again i ask, are you sure you have the right to decide for other people that their decision to practice aikido for other reasons that your own as "wrong" or do you simply have an opinion?

did Hitler have Anything to do with what actually went on on the battlefields? I never heard anything about him as a military leader...not that i studied it so will not pass judgement on your opinion of his military skills.

Erik
07-24-2003, 04:04 PM
did Hitler have Anything to do with what actually went on on the battlefields? I never heard anything about him as a military leader...not that i studied it so will not pass judgement on your opinion of his military skills.
He was pretty much an idiot. What he did have was a willingness to go one step further than the other guy thought he would. Or, perhaps more accurately, the other guys misjudged his willingness to go there. He had a few notable moments, and he did make, or approve, many of the major decisions (many of them bad, some good), but I don't think he knew very much about battlefield tactics. Far more often he would say something like "what is needed is National Socialist ardor". This while it's getting really cold in the USSR and their winter wear may as well have come from a company based in Honolulu.

Actually, I think Aleksey has a full-on right to state his opinion regardless of rank or experience. I've never liked limiting someone's comments because often it's those with less experience that see things more clearly than those more fully indoctrinated.

shihonage
07-24-2003, 04:15 PM
Exactly how much experience of Tai Chi or Feng Shui do you have?

"judgement" also implies right or wrong. SO once again i ask, are you sure you have the right to decide for other people that their decision to practice aikido for other reasons that your own as "wrong" or do you simply have an opinion?

did Hitler have Anything to do with what actually went on on the battlefields? I never heard anything about him as a military leader...not that i studied it so will not pass judgement on your opinion of his military skills.
1) I only have attended one class of ballroom dancing, but that is enough information for me to know that Aikido is not, in fact, ballroom dancing.

I have seen numerous other people study Tai Chi, and I have read enough about it, as well as Feng Shui, in order to know that they bear absolutely no relevance to a martial art.

2) Okay, I was not aware of this many semantic differences. Good job hunting down a Russian with a vocabulary.

I therefore rephrase my "passing judgement" as "making a judgement for one's self on which they shall base their future actions", or perhaps "forming a solid opinion".

3) Once again, this is just a matter of phrasing. I could say that I'm not a big scholar of fascism, at which Hitler was far more adept, and yet I can decide for myself that I want to be nowhere near it.

It seems that my post has struck a nerve, likely somewhere in your knee.

Once again, I'm not against preventing anyone from studying anything they want.

I'm against misdirected advertising, however.

Qatana
07-24-2003, 05:07 PM
but to people who study Aikido to be functional human beings, they are not being misdirected. if they chose to use Aikido as a spiritual path, and a teacher is providing access to that path, how is this misdirection?

you have every right to your opinion, and to express it. but you cannot decide for another person, whom you have no experience of, that their chosen path, which you have no experience of, is wrong.

who ever said Aikido and ballroom had any similarity?

and i'm sure that the proper placement and handling of tea, flowers,calligraphy, obi,pottery or the like had absolutely nothing to do with Budo?

and if my Sensei says Tai Chi is a Martial Art and Aikido is a spiritual practice, well thats His opinion and you don't have to agree with it or train with him.

shihonage
07-24-2003, 05:56 PM
you cannot decide for another person, whom you have no experience of, that their chosen path, which you have no experience of, is wrong.
Of course here I could follow your example, and ask "What do you know about me in order to judge what I do and don't have an experience of ?", etc etc and the game of wordplay goes on forever until the argument degenerates into something comically abstract.

But I digress. Have it your way.

Qatana
07-24-2003, 06:09 PM
Because you said

"I have seen numerous other people study Tai Chi, and I have read enough about it, as well as Feng Shui, in order to know that they bear absolutely no relevance to a martial art."

and didn't say

"because i know from experience, having studied both these practices"

Qatana
07-24-2003, 06:13 PM
and i'm sure i never said anywhere that i considered feng shui a martial art, you lumped them together.i assume you consider people who practice feng shui (and BTW< i don't, really) and Tai Chi( which i do) are new age nutcases, and that if they want to study aikido, it is for all the wrong reasons.

and the funny thing is that both of them, martial art or not, are so much older than aikido.

shihonage
07-24-2003, 06:24 PM
Because you said

"I have seen numerous other people study Tai Chi, and I have read enough about it, as well as Feng Shui, in order to know that they bear absolutely no relevance to a martial art."

and didn't say

"because i know from experience, having studied both these practices"
Thats because your quote applied to "people who choose spiritual path in Aikido", and I replied to you in that context.

Now you choose to juggle things around again.

I've encountered your type of arguing tactics many times before, and having recognized you as a person using such tactics, I therefore refrained from further argument.

You win. Cheers.

Larry Feldman
07-24-2003, 08:14 PM
Jo - Nice try. Unfortunately the mind is like a parachute, it only works properly when open.

Mark Shapiro
07-24-2003, 11:58 PM
Thank you all very much for the energy you've invested in this discussion. As the great Terry Dobson said, "The purpose of conflict is harmony." And if we can all get to know ourselves better in the process, then it was worth it.

I for one learned a great deal in reading these posts. I felt my heart racing at times with the fight or flight response, and real rage. A part of me was really pissed off and felt very misunderstood, and not heard. I noticed my urge to defend and attack back when I perceived an attack, and I noticed a sense of comraderie when someone said something I agreed with. I noticed judgment about the people I didn't even know! This is not how I want to live!

So, I used the 3 Easy Lessons. (1) Feel where you are: I took a breath, enhanced my connection to the ground, and noticed these feelings and allowed them to be, and they began to subside. Then (2)I felt the relationship. I felt into the kind of harmony I wanted to have with you all, and imagined I was facing the same direction you were, rather than opposing you. And inside of this harmonious space, I'll now (3), share who I am:

Having seen many of the vastly different Aikido styles out there, I don't think we should be surprised at differences of opinion. I respect and welcome them with open arms. You might have heard the story that O Sensei was told by his teacher, "Your Aiki-jutsu is getting weird" and O Sensei replied, "Then I will no longer call it Aiki-jutsu." And so Aikido evolved out of that tension. I wonder what would have happened if O Sensei and his teacher got locked into a big flame war about it. :) We might not have the art we have today!

Again, thank you all for the energy, and I sincerely hope to have the opportunity to train with you sometime, so we might share our interpretations of the art. And I'd like to suggest that none of us have gotten it right yet, because no one has even come close to matching O Sensei's abilities, and the world is not yet "one family" as he said would happen when "Aikido bears fruit in this world." I wonder what he meant by that, and I wonder how we can move a little closer to his vision. I guess we need to keep training, and cherish the conflicts (within and without) as opportunities to generate love. To me, that's Aikido. And we train it as a martial art that works, by the way, but I don't personally think that O Sensei's gift was intended only for martial artists.

Thank you very much for reading such a long post!

Mark Shapiro

Aikido of Marin

Kenny
07-25-2003, 02:05 AM
7/18/2003 2:59pm [from Jun Akiyama (akiy@aikiweb.com)]

Website: http://www.ccvfilm.com/

[/url].
June I just wanted to publicly express my thanks to you for spreading the word about Richards DVD. As a long time student of both Moon Sensie and Nadeau Shihan, I was overwhelmed at the premier to hear Nadeau Shihan say.

"You know when I was watching the Aiki dance sequence I was reminded of O'Sensei working with dancers, I think O'Sensei would have liked this if he had seen it"

One of the great things I see in Richards work is making the core lessons of Aikido accessible, in a format that does not require a mat. I personally am an endorphin junkie and find self justification in getting wacked with wooden sticks and whatnot but there a few poor misguided fools out there who aren't and don't and so will never spend as much time as I have in the dojo. I'm selfish, I'd like even them to learn the lessons I am trying to learn from Aikido, wether they want to learn them or not^:)

As Nadeau Shihan likes to say "O'Sensei just happened to be a martial artists. If he had been a farmer..."

[ed: We'd all be practicing with a hoe instead of a jo.]

For those of you who are serious about bringing the lessons you get from Aikido into your daily life please go to http://www.extraordinarylistening.com/books/books.html where you'll find many of Richards writings including the sister book Life in 3 Easy Lessons. Read the book and you can respond to what Richard actually has to say as opposed to just reacting to the marketing literature.

YEME
07-25-2003, 02:26 AM
this message was brought to you by Pepsi. For other delicious beverages by the same maker go to www.pepsi.com


i reserve my right to have an opinion however narrow minded or uninformed it may sometimes be.

*please note that opinion is also often subject to change.

**just not this time.

Paul Smith
07-25-2003, 05:51 AM
Aleksey -

The substantive discussion aside (I agree with you), I enjoy your writing. Keep it up, boy!

Qatana
07-25-2003, 10:11 AM
Anna how come you can have your opinion but Richard's students can't?

Please notice that they are not Putting Anybody Down.

Is making jokes about things people take seriously good Aikido?

Paul Smith
07-25-2003, 10:32 AM
I think much of the objection comes from the idea of "3-easy" anything. Whether that is a tongue in cheek title or not, I think that what Aleksey may, at least in part, be objecting to is the notion that the path is one which can be encapsulated so easily, and such a notion, endemic to our society (and perhaps our art in particular), attracts a crowd looking for the quick fix.

If so, I agree with him. From Timothy Leary's acid experiments in the '60's to now, the idea of short-circuiting what is truly an arduous path (arduous path to discover it was easy all along - but that is another thread), I object to those aspects of our culture which trade sound bites and fast food-styled gorgings for earnest, self-reflecting effort.

I also happen to believe the way in to the "ancillary benefits" of Aikido - the broader goals of "the way to harmony" with all things, comes from a harder place than what I saw in the trailer (and seemingly promulgated in the '3-easy steps' idea). In other words, learning true peace comes from truly martial practice. Even using the very body and physicality of O'Sensei, I see that mirrored: a stocky, squarely set man in his early years, who was, from what I can tell, a real scrapper from hell; to a wispy, flowing old man. His wizened elder years were set on the foundation of his youth, which was forged in fire.

But I may be totally wrong here and hold no authority. Each to their own.

Qatana
07-25-2003, 10:37 AM
Perhaps the title should have been "3 simple " steps.

Aikido is simple.But is sure ain't easy.

Attaining enlightenment is simple. But it sure ain't easy.

I didn't watch the trailer but i'm fairly positive it doesn't mean " overnight Shodan" but, "here are some simple practices that will help you to live by Aiki principles".

However it is still about Practice.

jxa127
07-25-2003, 12:51 PM
Unfortunately the mind is like a parachute, it only works properly when open.
Hi Larry,

I always thought that the mind was like a parachute 'cause you hope to heck you don't have to use it. :D

Just kidding.

All,

I saw the trailer and didn't think it was that bad. The uke's looked like they were diving a bit too soon, but the basic movements looked good.

I agree that easy steps are not as appropriate as simple steps.

Regards,

-Drew

shihonage
07-25-2003, 01:58 PM
I also happen to believe the way in to the "ancillary benefits" of Aikido - the broader goals of "the way to harmony" with all things, comes from a harder place than what I saw in the trailer (and seemingly promulgated in the '3-easy steps' idea). In other words, learning true peace comes from truly martial practice. Even using the very body and physicality of O'Sensei, I see that mirrored: a stocky, squarely set man in his early years, who was, from what I can tell, a real scrapper from hell; to a wispy, flowing old man. His wizened elder years were set on the foundation of his youth, which was forged in fire.
Thank you, Paul.

The above was very well put and sums up my sentiments precisely.

Alfonso
07-25-2003, 02:03 PM
por la boca muere el pez

paw
07-25-2003, 02:09 PM
Aleksey,

I imagine you're concerned about things like this (http://www.kiaigolf.com/kiaigolf.shtm) happening.

Clearly instigating,

Paul

Paul Smith
07-25-2003, 02:11 PM
Sorry, my Spanish is rusty - by the mouth, the fish dies? Talk is cheap?

Aleksey, onegaishimasu, my friend.

And, Paul, GOOD GOD ALMIGHTY. I have it now - brew beer the aiki way...Ki-Ale-Do. I have found my mission!

shihonage
07-25-2003, 02:14 PM
Aleksey,

I imagine you're concerned about things like this (http://www.kiaigolf.com/kiaigolf.shtm) happening.

Clearly instigating,

Paul
That, and http://www.yellowbamboo.com/ .

P.S. I especially like how the "Golf Sensei" is actually wearing her Aikido hakama while teaching non-Aikido.

I guess she just doesn't feel like she can carry authority without the hakama.

Alfonso
07-25-2003, 02:50 PM
Sorry, my Spanish is rusty - by the mouth, the fish dies? Talk is cheap?
it doens't translate that way ,more like

"give someone enough rope.."

But yeah, talk is cheap aint it?

forum memory is long

Mark Shapiro
07-25-2003, 02:55 PM
a stocky, squarely set man in his early years, who was, from what I can tell, a real scrapper from hell; to a wispy, flowing old man. His wizened elder years were set on the foundation of his youth, which was forged in fire.

But I may be totally wrong here and hold no authority. Each to their own.
This is an interesting point. I think one of the questions showing up in this forum is really about what effective approaches to Aikido are.

For example, at Aikido of Marin, we do freestyle with students from the very beginning, which is a very non-traditional, but IMHO very effective way of training.

And as for O Sensei's life, he clearly found a softer style after years of hard style training, and it's often commented that the A Bombs had a lot to do with his enlightenment.

So, to learn Aikido, do we pick up where O Sensei started? Or where he left off? Somewhere in between? Many people hold that O Sensei in his later years started to act crazy, and many of his students apparently stopped training when he started "getting weird." To me, that's when it got most interesting.

It seems to me that the different styles are essentially different because they answer this question differently. I think all of the approaches are valid, but how are we to measure effectiveness? How do you know if your Aikido approach is working? What does that mean? What are we doing with our bodies and our lives...what for? I don't think this is really considered enough, not just in Aikido, but in any endeavor.

Thank you for listening!

Mark

P.S. I agree that perhaps 3 Simple Lessons makes more sense, but I think that 3 Easy sounds better, and makes an incredibly difficult art more accessible. (Let's notice the pride we have as practicioners of an exclusive, difficult art while we're at it)

Paul Smith
07-25-2003, 03:08 PM
From what Keith Moore Sensei told me, our late teacher, Fumio Toyoda Shihan, apparently once commented that many of O'Sensei's students would be dumbfounded when O'Sensei began to speak at length of the metaphysical aspects of his Aikido. Seeing few, if any, of his people "getting it," O'Sensei would call up someone and throw the hell out of them. My impression is this was his explanation, as if to say "Now - do you get it?"

We will all take that as we will. I take it to mean literally "by the mouth the fish dies." In other words, easy enough to talk enlightenment, perhaps in 3 easy steps.

Let's talk again after 10,000,000 suburi.

Nacho
07-25-2003, 03:10 PM
I agree with Aleskey and Paul.

A lot of times I've been told that you have to train very hard, and forget about the philosophy while on the mat. There are people who want to throw uke with their little finger before learning the technique 'the hard way'. It's a pitty sometimes when they do this, uke says "OOOAA!!" and flies 2 meters by himself.

It's a martial art, for example, from ryote dori, if uke grabs you but when you are moving suddenly releases you, what do you do?smile and say "again please"?

PS: I hope that the title "3 EASY lessons" won't be a matter of marketing, it would be clearer to put what that lessons are from the beggining.

Nacho
07-25-2003, 03:17 PM
Maybe this subject would have to be in a whole another thread, but I don't like when people say O Sensei had super natural powers, that he was able to teletransport himself by his spirit, many students of him are always denying all this facts like Saotome and Tohei for example. But a lot of people keep feeding all this myths and all they are gaining is getting away the students from the concrete path. I don't understand all of this, O Sensei's life and Aikido history is enough interesting and great.

Erik
07-25-2003, 04:38 PM
From what Keith Moore Sensei told me, our late teacher, Fumio Toyoda Shihan, apparently once commented that many of O'Sensei's students would be dumbfounded when O'Sensei began to speak at length of the metaphysical aspects of his Aikido. Seeing few, if any, of his people "getting it," O'Sensei would call up someone and throw the hell out of them. My impression is this was his explanation, as if to say "Now - do you get it?"

We will all take that as we will. I take it to mean literally "by the mouth the fish dies." In other words, easy enough to talk enlightenment, perhaps in 3 easy steps.

Let's talk again after 10,000,000 suburi.
On the other hand, and I'm not going to look up the precise quotes, he said things about mastering aikido in 90 days, 20 years or a lifetime depending on the concept or technique in discussion. Then you get the people who say it's better to do one cut right than 1,000 wrong. Some of them prominent aikidoists.

You got it right though. You took a story, often done with quotes, decided what it meant and ran with it. Morihei Ueshiba quotes are nicely ambiguous that way. :)

cindy perkins
07-25-2003, 10:12 PM
Interesting discussion. IMHO, nothing called "3 easy..." is both good quality and actually easy. It's like the 2 easy steps to enlightenment: Wake up. Stay awake.

That said, we can't know how this thing is until we see it. Since when can you trust a marketer to give you a real sense of anything? If the sensei has a good rep, let's not condemn his work without giving it a fair shake.

drDalek
07-26-2003, 06:31 PM
Aikido wont help you become a functional human being, if you werent one before you joined your dojo you are going to need a lot more than Aikido to get you "functional".

Aikido makes you a functional fighter if and only if you practice it with the correct mindset and attitude, that is to become a great fighter.

When you are a great fighter you can decide what to do with your skill, this is where the peace, love and harmony stuff comes in.

The lentil eating, tree-hugging hippie-throwback types that seem to dominate conversations about Aikido need a swift, sharp reality check, I suggest you all find a judo guy with both a height and weight edge over you and try and "peace, love and harmony" him without getting tied into a pretzel.

Mark Shapiro
07-27-2003, 10:42 AM
Aikido wont help you become a functional human being, if you werent one before you joined your dojo you are going to need a lot more than Aikido to get you "functional".

Aikido makes you a functional fighter if and only if you practice it with the correct mindset and attitude, that is to become a great fighter.
With all due respect, I think Aikido is a pretty poor martial art for learning to become a "functional fighter." I studied Ju-Jutsu (as O Sensei did) before I found Aikido and believe it to be a much more effective self-defense system that can be learned in a much shorter time.

That's not why I train Aikido, and I'm amazed why anyone would train Aikido to learn to fight. It's like learning calculus so you can bowl better, or something....

What do people think O Sensei meant when he said "Budo is not felling the opponent by our force, nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all things in nature."

And by the way, I'm a proficient fighter. I studied it long enough to see what it was doing to my mind and spirit. I was getting to be so good at winning that it became a part of who I was, and I brought that to my relationships (which doesn't work, btw).

I think knowing how to fight is great. Then, after 6 months, when you've learned that, let's all train Aikido and learn how to be in relationship. That's what the world needs IMHO, and that's what the 3 Easy Lessons is about.

"Therefore to compete in techniques, winning and losing, is not true Budo. True Budo knows defeat. "Never defeated means never fighting."

Winning means winning over the mind of in discord in yourself. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission."

I just don't see how you can say these quotes are up for interpretation...I think that a lot of people don't want to really look at what they'd have to give up to take these ideas on.

Thanks for listening

drDalek
07-27-2003, 02:29 PM
"Never defeated means never fighting."

Its a nice quote but nobody ever asks whether its a good thing. Its pretty much in line with the other pascifism fallacies, see here (http://www.philelmore.com/objectivism/pacifism.htm) why pascifism is evil.

lets analyse your other O'Sensei quote:

"Budo is not felling the opponent by our force,

(Things I have heard that I can relate to this: dont use strenght, dont clash with your opponents force, accept and redirect the attack etc...)

nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms.

(I assume this quote was uttered post WW2 when nuclear holocaust was still pretty fresh in the general zeitgeist of japan, also goes back to the whole thing of not elliciting and initiating the aggression)

True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world,

(Didnt the samurai like to think of themselves as a kind of armed peace-keeping force when they werent acting like psychopaths with 3 foot straight razors and chopping each other up?)

correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all things in nature."

(This could also refer to the person, the practitioner himself, I pretty much reckon he was not referring to gardening here, also, the kind of "I am too deadly to fight" ego trap is the direct and extreme opposite of cultivation.)

Arguing that jiu-jitsu / kung-fu / karate / judo / tai-chi etc ad nauseum is better than Aikido is pretty darn ignorant coming from an enlightened being like yourself. Maybe you need to organise some loose sparring sessions with dojo partners and people from other MAs to get some "cultivation" done.

YEME
07-27-2003, 08:30 PM
Anna how come you can have your opinion but Richard's students can't?

Please notice that they are not Putting Anybody Down.

Is making jokes about things people take seriously good Aikido?
a) richards students can have their opinion. i have no desire to change them. they are as entitled to love Richards work as I am to loathe it.

b) Watch the trailer, and then get back to me.
My comments were meant towards the product not any person.

c)is taking everything so seriously really good life practice? should there be things that are beyond question?