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ewodaj
07-12-2003, 10:23 PM
has anyone ever heard of joe lewis? a lot of martial artists and people in general voted him as the greatest karate champion ever...anyways, I was listening to a radio show (its a martial arts radio show based out of vancouver canada I believe) and joe lewis was on there and he was saying steven seagal and jean claude van damme arent "real" martial artists because they never competed in competition to prove their skills...I thought that was an ignorant statement on his behalf because he has an ego problem as well...he was saying he would beat the gracies and all this other mumbo jumbo...first of all, if he did his research he would have known that in aikido there arent any competitions, so that would mean that seagal wouldnt compete in competition know matter how good he is...I was reading a few articles and they were saying some of the techniques that aikido teaches you can be very dangerous...check out this article and give me your input on this article and what joe lewis has said about steven seagal...its interesting to know that joe lewis has trained with bruce lee too...

A general perception of Aikido is that there are no competitions. This is generally true, although there as some styles which have limited competitions. Tomiki style, for example, has matches using tanken (short swords) with dull blades, and specific rules for scoring points.

Also, some trainees like to test each other to see if they can make their techniques work against other trainees who are resisting with full power, and vice-versa. This is constructive in moderation since any weaknesses and defects in technique become immediately clear, as long as the primary goals of perfecting technique and developing cordial relationships with other trainees is maintained in the forefront.

However, these diversions are not comparable to the type of competitions found in karate and other martial arts in which a contestant is free to use a variety of techniques in a relatively spontaneous manner for the express purpose of winning a victory over another contestant.

An official explanation for the lack of competition in Aikido is that this particular martial art is based on harmony, and competition is the antithesis of its primary objective. Although this is certainly valid, a brief review of the derivation of Aikido from older martial art forms will show that there is also a very practical reason for discouraging Aikido trainees from going at each other flat out.

An interesting little book entitled "Judo, Appendix Aikido", by Kenji Tomiki (the founder of the above referenced Tomiki style of Aikido), which was published in 1956, includes a chart showing classes of "Judo" technique. These are classified into two main categories, "Aiki techniques" and "Randori techniques".

The Aiki techniques are described as a "system of techniques in the applying of which it is considered most ideal not to be seized by the opponent", and include "Kansetsu techniques" (bending or twisting joints) and "Atemi techniques" (attacking vital points).

The Randori techniques are described as a "system of techniques to be applied by seizing hold of each other", and include grappling techniques and throwing techniques.

Although Tomiki considers Judo to include both classes of techniques, he writes that "practice in these techniques of attacking the vital points and bending or twisting the joints is not to be carried on by means of contests as in the case of the randori techniques, for from the nature of those techniques it is attended with danger".

Different martial arts focus on different aspects of applying and controlling force (karate emphasizes atemi, judo emphasizes grappling and throwing, etc.). In general, however, if a martial art is to provide a forum for competition which minimizes the possibility of death and serious injury, the forum must necessarily include rules which prohibit the more dangerous techniques. This was implemented in the case of judo by allowing only randori techniques in contests.

Aikido went in the opposite direction from Judo. To quote from "Traditional Aikido", by Morihiro Saito, Vol. V, "It is a well-known fact that matches are prohibited in Aikido. This is because Aikido has inherited a number of lethal techniques from its Founder, which render matches too dangerous an exercise, and also because the art purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement.

If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry.

Even if only empty-handed techniques are allowed, the techniques inherent with Aikido are too terrific to make Ukemi (rolls and somersaults in defense) possible. True, such Ukemi against throwing is made possible deliberately in training sessions. However, execution of techniques becomes uninhibited in matches and the dangers involved are obvious. The answer to the question of why Aikido is not identified with a sport or a contest is simple".

No single martial art can provide everything, and Aikido sacrifices competition in favor of including potentially dangerous techniques which were originally developed for lethal combat and handed down from our predecessors. Fortunately, there are many excellent martial art styles which offer competition and are available for persons who are so oriented.

All people are different, and those who are interested in martial arts should seek out a style which best suits their personality and goals. If one martial art does not provide everything they are looking for, they may consider training in several.

A good strategy is to select the most apparently suitable martial art as primary, and train long enough to develop a high level of proficiency. Then, seek out other martial arts and incorporate their teachings into the primary system. This is, in fact, an excellent way to become a true and well rounded martial artist.

Charles Hill
07-12-2003, 10:30 PM
Louis,

May I be so bold as to strongly suggest putting down the books and heading to a martial arts school and trying it out?

Charles

ewodaj
07-12-2003, 10:33 PM
Louis,

May I be so bold as to strongly suggest putting down the books and heading to a martial arts school and trying it out?

Charles
I went to an aikido dojo today and I signed up for classes charles...:D

MikeE
07-13-2003, 04:16 AM
Louis,

I have been in the martial arts for 20 years. I like to think that as your progress in whatever art you choose to follow that you will develop a level that allows your character to shine through.

I have noticed that people who have spent many years studying budo can and will exhibit extraordinary technique and control in the same instance. Whether or not a technique kills, maims, or controls is a matter of choice to a person at this level.

I would like to believe that this is pervasive through most of the martial arts.

My training in other arts, IMHO, has helped me provide a more realistic environment for my students when stepping outside traditional kata.

deepsoup
07-13-2003, 04:39 AM
Louis,

Who on Earth do you think you're talking to? You're not well informed, you have misunderstood much, and you are delivering a lecture on a forum frequented by people who are very well informed indeed.

On the subject of competition, why not check out the search facility, you'll find there have been several lengthy threads in the past.

Congratulations on finding a dojo; now that you're beginning to do some training, why not post on things you actually experience. (If you'll read the forums a bit, you'll find there are quite a few beginners who make valuable contributions to the forum.)

Sean

x

Mel Barker
07-13-2003, 10:04 AM
Louis, it appears that you are quoting some source in your post. Would you be so kind as to let us know the source of the quote in your post.

Thanks,

Mel Barker

ewodaj
07-13-2003, 01:03 PM
Louis,

Who on Earth do you think you're talking to? You're not well informed, you have misunderstood much, and you are delivering a lecture on a forum frequented by people who are very well informed indeed.

On the subject of competition, why not check out the search facility, you'll find there have been several lengthy threads in the past.

Congratulations on finding a dojo; now that you're beginning to do some training, why not post on things you actually experience. (If you'll read the forums a bit, you'll find there are quite a few beginners who make valuable contributions to the forum.)

Sean

x
I dont like the manner you are talking in boy...aikido teaches you to respect others...Im not misunderstood because ive done length research on it...I even asked the instructor at the dojo arent there competitions in aikido and he said no and he explained it to me...have respect for your peeps boy...

Hanna B
07-13-2003, 01:08 PM
aikido teaches you to respect others...A lot of people say that. I have yet so see it proven.

Ian Moore
07-13-2003, 02:11 PM
Seems to me that life in general teaches you to respect others. Whether you learn the lesson and pass the test is another matter...

ewodaj
07-13-2003, 02:32 PM
A lot of people say that. I have yet so see it proven.
you respect the people in your dojo correct? there you go, point proven...its something you already have learned, so no instructor needs to tell you that...its basically like this, you already know do this before you get into aikido because that is one of thw many things aikido teaches you, but you should already have known that...its basically called manners...:eek:

Martin L
07-13-2003, 06:37 PM
Oh dear, all this talk of manners, and look how you reply to Sean.

Unfortunately for you he is correct. What exactly was the aim of your post? Preaching to aikidoka about what they already do? Research is fine, but make your own opinion.

This is a tired argument, which is amusing because it isn't really an argument at all. Aikido is an umbrella. Shodokan Aikido has competition. Others do not. Therefore, there ia competition in Aikido. If you have no interest in competition, don't choose Shodokan, but accept the fact that it exists. If you don't, then it really makes no difference to anyone anyway. We'll all keep training happily in whatever style we have chosen.

PeterR
07-13-2003, 07:59 PM
These are classified into two main categories, "Aiki techniques" and "Randori techniques".
The chart is here.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

Still chuckling that a man who has yet to step on the mat is lecturing Sean on politeness. But please note that Shodokan randori is not divided into randori techniques and aiki techniques.

ewodaj
07-14-2003, 12:08 AM
The chart is here.

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

Still chuckling that a man who has yet to step on the mat is lecturing Sean on politeness. But please note that Shodokan randori is not divided into randori techniques and aiki techniques.
you dont make any sense huh? what does me not stepping on the mat have anything to do with seans politeness? aikido teaches you to respect others and I feel his statements were smartass...respecting others and their opinions and what aikido is about...one of the mant aspects of it anyways...

deepsoup
07-14-2003, 06:38 AM
you dont make any sense huh? what does me not stepping on the mat have anything to do with seans politeness? aikido teaches you to respect others and I feel his statements were smartass...respecting others and their opinions and what aikido is about...one of the mant aspects of it anyways...
Louis,

The rule on these forums is to treat each other with respect, but our opinions are not afforded the same protection.

I considered your opinion to be a bit half-baked, and I was excercising my right to say so. (In fact, it didn't even seem to be an opinion as such, just so much regurgitated second-hand information.) That is what debate and discussion is. But in doing so I was endevouring to treat you personally with respect.

I guess you dont understand the distinction, since in reply you went straight for immature (and rather feeble) personal abuse. Ah well.

Not everybody's opinion on what "aikido is about" carries equal weight. For your information, reading a few websites and maybe a book or two, and having a single conversation with your local instructor does not constitute "length research" [sic].

There are people posting here (I'm not one of them, btw.) who've been training hard for decades, now that is lengthy research.

There are also complete beginners and even 'not-yet' beginners like yourself making valid and interesting contributions. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from reading their posts and contrasting them to your own.

Sean

x

L. Camejo
07-14-2003, 10:02 AM
I think this thread is a great example of how one can lose their centre (and manners... and technique) in the face of resistance. Parallels mat training in many respects :)

Maybe Louis has helped prove that there IS some good to competition/resistance training in Aikido, as we learn more and more how to effectively execute and adapt our technique while under the pressure of resistance, without letting it all fall apart. I think some Shodokan training is exactly what Louis needs :)

Anyone can respect another when they are being nice and cooperative, it's bringing the harmony out of a state of conflict and resistance that shows us whether we really understand what we mean when we say Aikido is about harmony.

Just a few rambling thoughts. Will return to my state of lurkdom now :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

PhilJ
07-14-2003, 11:19 AM
Thanks Larry, that's a very good point to remember.

*Phil

Michael Neal
07-14-2003, 11:29 AM
LOL

Cyrijl
07-14-2003, 03:32 PM
If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry. No single martial art can provide everything, and Aikido sacrifices competition in favor of including potentially dangerous techniques which were originally developed for lethal combat and handed down from our predecessors. Fortunately, there are many excellent martial art styles which offer competition and are available for persons who are so oriented.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How old are you louis?

Mel Barker
07-14-2003, 05:31 PM
Just a few rambling thoughts. Will return to my state of lurkdom now :)

L.C.:ai::ki:
Well said Larry. Please ramble more and lurk less.

Mel Barker

Devin McDowell
05-27-2004, 06:14 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How old are you louis?
What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.

PeterR
05-27-2004, 06:36 AM
What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.
Um Devin - you do realize that the last time someone posted to this thread was nearly a year ago.

In any case - it wasn't just the quote which brought forth the mirth.

Chris Birke
05-27-2004, 11:26 AM
What WOULD an NHB Aikido romp look like? Aikido initiates no offensive techniques!

So, let's start the match with both contestants gripping the gi. I'd imagine there'd be an initial scuffle to get a lock, maybe a throw attempt (unsuccessful) countered with some close striking, and then they would undoubtedly separate. This brings us back to the initial problem.

Any match would have to be Aikido versus, or Aikido would have to be augmented with some assault techniques.

//

Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there. There is a large difference between what works on the average joe, and what works against a skilled opponent. It is much easier to defend many techniques than execute them.

I knew someone who was a big proponent of stomping out the knee. They claimed it could quickly end any fight.

In NHB, there is no rule preventing you from going out there, stomping some knee, and collecting your paycheck. The reason you don't see it is that it's too easy to defend. Stomping the knee relies on the ignorant posture of an opponent - if they know how to stand correctly with respect to their opponent (or even just happen to be standing that way) it won't work.

That said, I do know of incidents where people have stomped knees "on the street." Most people you meet won't be trained.

//

I was thinking, what are the features of barred holds (strikes ignored) that make them too dangerous?

Maybe if we examine commonality among them there can be some insight.

//

Are you training to fight in a cage, training for self defense off the mat, or training for spiritual enlightenment? These goals are not mutually exclusive, however most would argue you can very legitimately abandon some in the pursuit of others.

You don't need to fight in a cage to be good on the streets. You don't need to train self defense to achieve spiritual enlightenment.

Or do you?

//

"aikido teaches you to respect others..." (this is a "20 year" technique)

//

Will I ever get tired of threads debating competition? No... I don't think so...

happysod
05-27-2004, 11:42 AM
Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there so, as a matter of interest, how is Jason doing with his aikido in MMA?

Chris Birke
05-27-2004, 12:07 PM
After checking my favorite website (http://www.aikidog-sales.com/) it looks as though he hasn't fought recently.

I have the suspicion that if whatever he does works, it will look different what's in from the average dojo, and people will be inclined to say "it isn't Aikido."

(not that I agree or disagree with that)

PeterR
05-27-2004, 08:34 PM
What WOULD an NHB Aikido romp look like? Aikido initiates no offensive techniques!

Of course it does.

So, let's start the match with both contestants gripping the gi. I'd imagine there'd be an initial scuffle to get a lock, maybe a throw attempt (unsuccessful) countered with some close striking, and then they would undoubtedly separate. This brings us back to the initial problem.

Well then it would be Judo. Aikido is really done before the initial grip. NHB of course doesn't involve only one form of fighting.

Any match would have to be Aikido versus, or Aikido would have to be augmented with some assault techniques.

Well that is why in Shodokan randori we use the tanto. Of course we also have toshu randori (both unarmed) that can work pretty good.

Aikido in MMA - if i were successful, it would already be there. There is a large difference between what works on the average joe, and what works against a skilled opponent. It is much easier to defend many techniques than execute them.

The big lesson learnt in Shodokan randori. These beutiful techniques are damm difficult to pull off against someone who knows as much as you do.

Largo
05-27-2004, 11:47 PM
What is with all these old posts coming back to life? :freaky: I wonder if it has to do with the similar threads box.

What is all of this stuff about aikido not initiating the first technique? Most of the techniques I've learned involve attacking first and having the uke successfully block that first attack. (if he can't, then why waste time using waza on a schmuck that you could just pummel? :D )

Chris Birke
05-28-2004, 01:16 AM
What sort of technique do you use to enter in on someone who is simply on guard and not moving towards you?

I know Aikido involves punching and kicking in training, but I've never seen it sparred and called Aikido. (This being a fault of those who define and restrict what Aikido is.) Do Aikidoka spar with intent to clock each other first, rather than be the one who enters in on or blends with the energy of the other? I only ever see the second. You are right about grappling range being a little late for aikido, but I'm a bit stuck on what would bring two Aikidoka against each other. I could see one person attacking an Aikidoist, who then responds, but is the person initating doing "Aikido" as most know it? Then again, I have not trained Shodokan. I'm no expert at all in any of this, just exploring the possibilities. Tell me more about this toshu randori.

Tanto sparring, as I have seen it in videos, seems like a very good thing. After I posted I realized I had totally neglected to mention it, as it's some of the best "Alive" training I've seen in the art. I should have mentioned I was restricting my thoughts to hand to hand just for simplicitie's sake.


As for the threads coming back from the dead... maybe it's time to invest in some holy water and a chainsaw?

Largo
05-28-2004, 01:56 AM
As for how to attack, it depends on how open they are. It's hard to explain what goes through my head. :confused: It's more of something that you feel than anything.

We only do sparring every once in a while in my dojo. It is, however, a part of the shodan test.


I think sparring done properly is an excellent tool. I would be very leary of anyone who claims a high level who hasn't actually gone and had to 'make it work' in some situation or another. You learn very quickly that just waiting, backing up, or trying to grab fails horribly. (I think that more training in sparring would be a big help to people who just say ma-ai or back up to everything)

If you don't learn how to attack, I don't think you can learn to defend.

PeterR
05-28-2004, 03:32 AM
The first technique in Budo Renshu (from 1933) has Nage initiating the waza by attacking uke with a strike to the face. This technique is practiced by Tomiki folks as the first waza in the Kory Goshin no Kata (Old Style Self Defense). Now most Aikido techniques tend to be practiced as Go no sen (reactive) but sen no sen (seizing the initiative) timing has always been part of what we do. I don't believe Aikido is an aggressive art but that does not preclude us from, once we find ourselves in a sticky situation, from using all at our disposal.

That said. Toshu randori is probably the closest to actual fighting we can get and subsequently is much more difficult to do safely and with meaning. By safety I mean not getting hurt (duh) and by meaning I mean to improve our Aikido techniques. Basically this means we exclude situations where it could degenerate from its purpose to something else.

So with tanto randori the initiative lies heavily in favor of tanto - with toshu there is no distinction. Since we don't want to train our Judo techniques we preclude grabbing the Dogi but all else is fair, same with closed punches and kicks. You want to integrate everything into a whole - cross-train. The only other rule that we have is that both members have to try their best. It's no good standing back and saying look at me I'm doing Aikido.

Whether or not you are doing tanto or toshu randori it is important to increase the level of resistance slowly. Start from none and move up. By slowly I mean over the course of weeks rather than minutes. The ones who get it look very relaxed and fluid, they probe for openings and explode with perfect timing.

I've seen similar exercises in some special Aikiaki dojos - where nage and uke continuously switch roles with techniques not taken to completion. In other words one person does something and then the other person counters with a waza and the counter is countered ... I've also seen more common is transitioning techniques where you move from one uncompleted technique to another. This is generally what's happening in Toshu randori except the idea is to take to completion everything you try and at the same time to shut the other guy down.

By mutual agreement you can introduce variations. Allow kicks and punches, dogi grabbing. I prefer not to in that I find even with these restrictions it takes effort not to get caught up in a wrestling match. However, in my little group if you go to ground keep on going. Honbu would frown on that but I just enjoy a little wrastling.

So Chris please try and get back to us.

Yann Golanski
05-28-2004, 04:17 AM
Chris,

Check out my old posts as I have describe both tanto randori and toshu many times before.

But basically, toshu involves uke and tori coming and starting to do techniques on each other. It does not matter who attack first, just throw something and then when tori does a techniques react to it so it doesn't work and you are in a position to do a technique. Repeat till one of you manages to get a technique that works. The winning stage is not getting a technique working (it's boring and kata does that), it's making a technique flow from one to another.

Tanto randori involves testing your Aikido against someone who fully resists you with all his might and wants to club you one. Of course, it's done with a safety net -- at least in Shodokan. It's an exercise to see where you lack understanding of Aikido. Winning in tanto randori is having your favorite technique fail. It shows you what you have left to learn.

For all the years of Aikido I have done, I won every single match of toshu and randori because my goal is to understand Aikido.

Hope that helps.

Devin McDowell
05-28-2004, 11:07 AM
"Um Devin - you do realize that the last time someone posted to this thread was nearly a year ago."
:blush: I really should start looking at the dates on the posts before I reply.

Ron Tisdale
05-28-2004, 02:04 PM
I think that its good people are looking at old posts...it means they are researching a bit.

I remember once on e-budo I replied to a post from 3 or 4 years earlier...boy was I blushing!

Ron :)

L. Camejo
05-28-2004, 04:11 PM
What you are quoting came from a book Louis quoted, so his age has nothing to do with it.

Even though the reply may have come a little late - what book was Louis quoting? Who was the author? It appears they have a very interesting view of what Aikido is supposed to be and what it sacrifices for the sake of handing down "lethal" techniques. Just wondering is all, it's interesting when people make sweeping claims, publish them and then those who don't know better go read it and make the same assumptions.

LC:ai::ki:

JasonFDeLucia
05-28-2004, 08:18 PM
as a humble gesture,i would offer that the good people of aiki web pettition to have a fight between either roy jones and myself,or sudo genki and my self for styles that would not force a negetive fight.then you would see ueshiba juku (best description of the tense of mr. ueshiba's aiki that would be used in nhb.

paw
05-29-2004, 06:59 AM
as a humble gesture,i would offer that the good people of aiki web pettition to have a fight between either roy jones and myself,or sudo genki and my self

....If I recall correctly, you're bigger than Genki and smaller than Jones JR. Why not an agressive middleweight ("Charuto", Hughes, Lawler, Tiki, etc..)?

Regards,

Paul

JasonFDeLucia
05-29-2004, 08:42 PM
....If I recall correctly, you're bigger than Genki and smaller than Jones JR. Why not an agressive middleweight ("Charuto", Hughes, Lawler, Tiki, etc..)?

Regards,

Paul


well,I hover about 185 -190 ,genki the last time i saw him in person,might have been 175 -180 ,but it's more a question of styles to be conducive to exhibit technique.like i'm sure if i fought dan ''the beast'' he would do every thing in his power to shoot very low ankle picks to drag the fight to the ground ,crowd the fence ,and grab the fence just to pull a win .not caring to show something worth noticing,but to pull the win.roy jones is an artist.sudo genki is an artist.they are people i think are always going to be interesting ,of course the same is true of lee murray.but i also think i would make bob sapp look like the perfect uke,because he is fertile for aiki waza.just dont use fighters who fight negetively(zzzz)boring.

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 10:02 AM
Some would say that Roy Jones Jr. fights so defensively that he might qualify for a 'negative' fighter. Frankly, he's so cautious that I have a hard time seeing someone pull off 'aiki' style techniques, whatever those might be...

Still like to watch him fight though...

RT

Chris Birke
06-01-2004, 04:22 PM
Ron, I like everything you say very much. I can't help but feel sometimes that I my ultimate "aiki fruitiness" is that I believe if one does Aikido in the way their heart mind body and world tells them is best, then no matter what they do is Aikido. It's coming to terms with the fact that I suppose I'm an undenyable progressive - looking for new ways to train, better, harder, safer, more realistically - ultimately more fun.

What destroys my Aikido is when I feel as though what I am doing is in bad faith. That I go against my own in the hopes that my path will come through others. I'm afraid that can't be the case for me... maybe I am wrong, and it isn't Aikido, but it will be what I do.

After I realized that it all became simple - figure out what works, train it as hard as possible, and find ways to make it safe to train harder. I'm thrilled to hear what your dojo does =).

//

Jason, you will have to convince Genki first, after Bushidot I think it's his day to pick and choose. I will certainly sign your petition if he agrees but you cannot get funding for training, I think it would be a good fight.

//

How is someone who does whatever they can do to win not an artist?

Why is ancient gung fu more creative than modern ground and pound. One seems a far newer and unexpected technique to the martial arts world (despite it not being ancient asian and therefore somehow exotic). To look at fights, not as the function of individual fighters, but as developments of art - ground and pound is an expressive new tendril. It, in time (perhaps already), will be countered by the next evolution of creativity, and this will be marked by victory.

Art in fighting is a relationship between the styles of the fighters and the audience, and right now, thick efficient veracity is a powerful statment against what has been perpetuated for so long in the martial arts. Although you may disagree, many feel that an ankle pick is still very much something worth showing.

Moreover, it provides the excellent oppertunity for the next revolution of the art, but only if it has established itself as a dominant technique. So, although some fights may bore you in their repetition to conservative victory, it is this boring repetition that will make the day when a new and successful counter emerges all the more incredible and amazing.

//

Can you tell us more about Aiki in NHB like contests?

Jorx
06-02-2004, 03:13 AM
Well put ANY traditional styles of striking against eachother in cage (let's take some mad-parrot-claw wu-shu or blaharyu-karate) and it still looks like bad kickboxing. Put any styles of traditional grappling -based arts against eachother in a cage (whatever jiu-jitsu, silat or whatever, Aikido included) and it looks like very bad wrestling/judo accompanied by extremly bad kickboxing...

Chris Birke
06-02-2004, 05:34 AM
Jorgen, I think that very thing is evidence that the ways and attitude of training in those "traditional" arts have been abandoned and distorted in modern times.

I refuse to believe that anyone was that inept and illogcal in their execution in the past; they would have died off too quickly. I think, with the peace to train without ever having to proove yourself that modernity has brought, traditional arts have quickly rotted into little more than dance. I should think their origional masters would be ashamed by what is now being passed off as an expert.

But, all is not lost. I think a current Judo master would be quite appriciated by the past JuiJitsu masters. I think the past masters would be far more inclined towards the average "modern" Judo student than the average student of what is taught as "Traditional Jujitsu" (no offense meant to those who train at good JJ schools, you should be more aware than I of the many bad schools out there claiming the name JJ).

This is no critique of the arts as a whole, though, just martial effectiveness. The fight is not everything.

Michael Neal
06-02-2004, 01:31 PM
Louis, I have a research project for you. Go to a Judo school and join in the class. Participate in the randori and ask a willing partner to allow you to use any "dangerous" Aikido technique you wish, even after many years of Aikidio practice you will likely find yourself slammed into the mat over and over again by Judoka with even a couple of months of experience.

Competition does have some limitations but not quite as many as semi cooperative Aikido practice.
Read this forum topic by following the link, it is about someone who has a blackbelt in TKD, I think with over 6 years of experience. He had the same type of arrogance you have about competition. I had no trouble throwing him at will and he was thrashed around badly last class by one of our brand new white belts with only 2 - 3 months experience. The TKD guy was also pretty strong and in good shape.

http://judoinfo.com/discuss/index.php?showtopic=1430

Nothing wrong with Aikido, I personally think it is a great finishing art for people who already have years of other self defense/martial arts skills. I would like to try it again when I get my blackbelt in Judo.

If people prefer not to do competitive martial arts that is perfectly fine but they really have no ground to stand on (no pun intended) when they start criticizing them for not being realistic enough.

Jorx
06-02-2004, 01:43 PM
I will post later on but now i have a question...
Is Jason DeLucia in this thread the same Jason DeLucia who got beaten by Royce Gracie in their Gym and lost to umm... Royler in UFC2?

paw
06-02-2004, 01:55 PM
I will post later on but now i have a question...
Is Jason DeLucia in this thread the same Jason DeLucia who got beaten by Royce Gracie in their Gym and lost to umm... Royler in UFC2?

I suspect you mis-typed....Jason lost to Royce not Royler.

Regards,

Paul

wendyrowe
06-02-2004, 07:25 PM
...Is Jason DeLucia in this thread the same Jason DeLucia who got beaten by Royce Gracie in their Gym and lost to umm... Royler in UFC2?


Yes, it's the same Jason DeLucia, and Paul's right that both of those fights were with Royce.

PeterR
06-02-2004, 07:53 PM
I think the operative word here is fought - not lost. It is far far better to have tried and failed then never to have tried at all.

Frankly Jorgen your statement sounds contemptuous - is that what you mean?

Jorx
06-03-2004, 03:53 AM
No lost is a correct word I think. They fought under some rules which determine winning and losing. And so he lost.

No I'm not trying to especially be contemptunous. That takes a lot of courage to fight in MMA and he definately has it.

I didn't want to check the fights and I trusted my memory on the fights. I was wrong - somehow remembered that in UFC2 it was some other Gracie than Royce... didn't give enough thought to the fact that Royce was the only Gracie who competed in beginning of UFC's.

JUST... there is this guy... who has lost three times with one scenario to one person. He has tried different tactics each time but none of it mattered. Takes a lot off willpower to go there again... especially claiming to go against Genki Sudo and such who are all very good OVERALL fighters... not like Royce Gracie who is a BJJ man and even not one of the best. (that's been said enough that he has a very good spirit but BJJ on a strong blue-average purple level).

Aikido is all about COMMITED attacks. Noone who knows something about fighting doesn't give attacks with such commitment that Aikido (I'm talking about "normal" person level... let's leave all the old mystery men above 6th dan out) could deal with it.

BUT I must say I'm waiting with exitment the day that someone goes into the ring claiming that he does Aikido. And if he succeeds then my highest respects go out to him. Yet... that day is yet to come.

Chris Birke
06-03-2004, 06:40 AM
"Noone who knows something about fighting doesn't give attacks with such commitment that Aikido (I'm talking about "normal" person level... let's leave all the old mystery men above 6th dan out) could deal with it."
->
No one does not give attacks that Aikido could deal with.
->
Everyone will give attacks that Aikido could deal with.


Do you mean:

No one who fights well will give attacks that Aikido could deal with?

//

Where did you hear that Royce does purple belt level BJJ. I've never rolled with him, but I've never heard that either.

//

Royler is definately a blackbelt, and I've felt him. Genki Sudo recently beat him in K1, but... Royler is like 155 lbs.

Jason is 185.

I'm pretty sure size would matter.

Jorx
06-03-2004, 08:13 AM
I'm not saying ONE bad word about Royler... he was like... the bjj miracle of 90s...
But made really stupid strategical moves against Genki (who is only slightly heavier).

Of course Royce IS a blackbelt... every Gracie is a Gracie blackbelt;) But it has been said often enough that if you take his technical ability it's not on a high level (maybe he has reached his mastership by now) but in the early UFC's and even in the recent fights with Yoshida he doesn't show beautiful jujitsu:)

Quoting Mario Sperry "Royce did mistakes what even my bluebelts don't." Of course that is exaggerated but gets the point over. In pure BJJ Royce is a well-rounded purple. Maybe a brown by now.

And what I mean now (correcting myself and refining my thoughts):

Noone who is smart and has some fighting knowledge and some fighting experience will throw commited attacks at you (exept for the finishing one).

happysod
06-03-2004, 08:21 AM
Jorgen, I think I get what you're saying, but I believe you're ascribing a much more passive response on behalf of aikido than is actually the case. Even in the aiki-fruitie land of Ki aikido, if you're opponent isn't attacking you, you do have the option to close them down aggressively, rather than just wait for them to play their strategy out on you. At least that's what I always assumed some of the entering throws were for.

wendyrowe
06-03-2004, 08:25 AM
BUT I must say I'm waiting with exitment the day that someone goes into the ring claiming that he does Aikido. And if he succeeds then my highest respects go out to him. Yet... that day is yet to come.

Of all Jason's posts on various forums, his Bullshido posts probably speak most directly to your issue:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10290

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10324

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8007

As for fighting and winning doing aikido, Jason lists himself as kung fu but tells anyone who'll listen how much aikido influences his style. And his record is 33 - 19 - 1 -- so he's no slouch, even if he did lose to Royce in the first two UFCs.

In the interview at the end of his Combat Aikido DVDs, Jason talks about successfully using irimi nage etc in fights. He also says aikido is really just riding your opponent's resistance, harmonizing with your opponent to solicit a response and steer it into a favorable position. That definition -- which I believe is a good one -- includes more than a set list of aiki techniques.

paw
06-03-2004, 09:16 AM
I'm not saying ONE bad word about Royler... he was like... the bjj miracle of 90s...
But made really stupid strategical moves against Genki (who is only slightly heavier).

I disagree. Genki is really, really good. He much better on the ground that most people give him credit for and his standup is better than Royler's.

Quoting Mario Sperry "Royce did mistakes what even my bluebelts don't." Of course that is exaggerated but gets the point over. In pure BJJ Royce is a well-rounded purple. Maybe a brown by now.


Stop the hate. Royce is a bjj black belt. He may not be the "best" at MMA, vale tudo, or sport, but he definately has black belt level skills in all of those arenas.

Regards,

Paul

Jorx
06-03-2004, 10:39 AM
...if you're opponent isn't attacking you, you do have the option to close them down aggressively, rather than just wait for them to play their strategy out on you. At least that's what I always assumed some of the entering throws were for.

Sure... but who actually trains this? Only the people crosstraining. If an average Aikidoka starts attacking with his mighty atemi or entering throw then its gonna look like bad boxing! And most likely he'll get beaten up pretty bad.

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2004, 10:42 AM
If an average Aikidoka ...

Average by who's standards? at which dojo? Against what level of competition?

These topics are generally too general to be of much use. Though they do sometimes cover interesting information...

Ron

Jorx
06-03-2004, 10:49 AM
I disagree. Genki is really, really good. He much better on the ground that most people give him credit for and his standup is better than Royler's.

Stop the hate. Royce is a bjj black belt. He may not be the "best" at MMA, vale tudo, or sport, but he definately has black belt level skills in all of those arenas.


Post has gone totally offtopic BUT:
In Genki vs. Royler match Royler attempted the same submission with the same setup from the same position FOUR times in a row! If that is not a strategical stupidity then what is it?

Royler was the best in MMA and Vale Tudo. Everyone says he is a great fighter but not a technical one. You do not have to be a bb level in BJJ to win in UFC. Royce wasn't. I was just saying that he is a great fighter but by far not one of the best in BJJ.

paw
06-03-2004, 11:14 AM
Post has gone totally offtopic BUT:
In Genki vs. Royler match Royler attempted the same submission with the same setup from the same position FOUR times in a row! If that is not a strategical stupidity then what is it?

An attempt to end the fight. It's easy for you and me (and everyone else on the planet) to armchair quarterback things now. Genki is a very dangerous opponent.

Royler was the best in MMA and Vale Tudo. Everyone says he is a great fighter but not a technical one.

Not sure who you're referring to.

Rickson is the best bjj'er on the planet, and that is universally acknowledged.

Royler is 3-2-1 according to Sherdog. That's not the record of the "best" MMA'er or even the "best" bjj'er in MMA. Royler is a newbie in MMA, no disrespect intended. However, Royler is extremely techical, as his Mundial wins and Abu Dhabi results show. To suggest otherwise is nuts.

Royce is 12-2-2, a much better record, IMO than Royler. Royce was a black belt when the UFC started. Royce may not be the best bjj'er on the planet, but to suggest he's not a black belt, at the time of the first UFC or now, is lunacy.

I'm starting to suspect you spend too much time reading and not enough time training. It's painfully obvious that you haven't trained with Royce, Royler, Rickson or Paulson.

Regards,

Paul

*edited to correct quote tag*

Jorx
06-03-2004, 12:00 PM
Not sure who you're referring to.
*

Blaah... damn those brazilian forenames.

I meant Royce all the way.
Royler is a bjj genius.
(Attempt to end a fight 4 times in a row with the same move? I'm not saying Royler IS stupid. I'm saying he made a mistake.)
So is Rickson (though many myths have formed around him).

Royce was not a technical BJJ fighter. Just wasn't. He sure was/is a great fighter.

And of course I haven't rolled with any of the Gracies nor Paulson. I am from estonia. Estonias BJJ / MMA scene is almost nonexistant. No formal teachers. Therefore all I do is read and watch and analyze and roll, roll, roll.

paw
06-03-2004, 12:19 PM
(Attempt to end a fight 4 times in a row with the same move? I'm not saying Royler IS stupid. I'm saying he made a mistake.)

I'm suggesting that a) it's easy to say someone made a mistake after the result is known and b) Genki Sudo is a top level opponent. Bottom line, if Royler got tap, you'd be singing a different tune....and if Royler never attempted the submission, you'd be claiming it was right there and anyone could have just submitted Sudo.

Royce was not a technical BJJ fighter. Just wasn't. He sure was/is a great fighter.

You'll forgive me if I again say you're wrong. Having rolled and trained with Royce and other top bjj'ers, I know, from experience that Royce is technical.

I'm done with this thread....

Regards,

Paul

Jorx
06-03-2004, 12:41 PM
I definately wouldn't say anyone could have submitted Sudo:D
But yes, you are right. And I am right too.

I'll give you you're opinion. And what's worth my opinion against someone who's actually rolled with Royce (hehe:) ) I'll add your knowledge to my baggage.

I'm done as well... exept when this takes another direction again:)

JasonFDeLucia
06-05-2004, 07:59 PM
as some one who has rolled with genki i can say it's not his technique but his spirit that makes him great.he would invent a new kyu just for a fight,then you'ld never see it again.the technique is imaterial ,it's a spiritual matter.

Jorx
06-06-2004, 03:30 PM
Well as I have looked a bit now into information in the net about Jason Delucia I would ask can anyone say HOW does what he does in the ring differ from what the others do? Where is the Aikido / Five Animal Kung-Fu in that? His wins have come with RNCs / armbars/ kneebars etc. Isn't that BJJ?

wendyrowe
06-06-2004, 04:24 PM
Have you watched Jason's fights? They end with submissions because they have to END, but what he does before that looks variously like kung fu and aikido and other standing arts. If you watch several of his fights, you'll see they look very different from each other. What he does depends on his opponent's actions, since he does whatever it takes to blend with his opponent to get a favorable position.

JasonFDeLucia
06-06-2004, 08:12 PM
Well as I have looked a bit now into information in the net about Jason Delucia I would ask can anyone say HOW does what he does in the ring differ from what the others do? Where is the Aikido / Five Animal Kung-Fu in that? His wins have come with RNCs / armbars/ kneebars etc. Isn't that BJJ?

jorgen,perhaps you should study as much archival information as you can and you will see.that the choke is as much a focal point as any other finishing technique ,even with mr.ueshiba.indeed there are photos and footage of mr. ueshiba using many goshin jutsu forms(probably taght him by mr.kano himself)including kata gatame(side choke)hadaka jime(good old rear choke)hanmi handati morote seoi nage(just a two hand judo throw)and knee strikes.not to mention the number of times you see him do a striking version of entering throw for combat.versus the soft form done for practice .mr.ueshiba was indeed the highest evolution of his day ,but in a scrape his aiki reduces to the same as anyones .what makes it more efficient,and more beautiful is this.the technique starts long before you meet the opponant.
for example in judo the premise of throwing is ,off balance ,enter,then throw.in aikido it is enter ,off balance ,then enter and throw.and regardless of the particular technique ,you must obey laws and principles.for example one law/principle that is a must to do aikido properly is sankaku irimi.but most teachers do not impart this wisdom easily because in aiki it is usually part of 'o' kuden .i personally learned sankaku irimi from kenpo master''bruce juchnick'' mr.ueshiba probably learned it in china''ba gua''.and here is a hint.in the forum he fought in there were swords and knives.you'ld be a fool to do a double leg take down to a man with a knife.so they didn't practice that way so much.trust me if mr.ueshiba did ufc instead of sumo(in sumo the match is done when one hand touches the mat)you'ld see him sprawling and doing sacrifice throws ect.the techniques are true guides ,but every technique is an aiki technique provided it is done in that vein ,yeild then redirect ,not just power through.

Chad Sloman
06-07-2004, 02:58 PM
I hate to try to resurrect this dead horse, but I feel like I should whip it some more............. I realize that this argument has a lot to do with theoreticals (mainly on the part of people who don't speak from experience), but something should be said about individual skill and applicability. Mr. DeLucia is very skilled and has awesome ability. He can make aikido work for him in whatever situation he chooses. Can I take my aikido skills and fight a NHB/MMA fighter and win? No. Why? Because I'm just not that good. But that DOESN'T mean that aikido doesn't work in that situation. For people like me (not so skilled), aikido can work best against people who overcommittedly attack. When some guy says, "I am going to punch you out", I say "please, I don't want to fight" and he takes a swing at my head unprovoked, this is where my aikido will work best. But, if said situation I say "OK, let's go" and I put my fists up, I'm going to have a much harder time. I've given up my element of surprise and I've raised my opponents defenses. Not saying aikido won't work just that for me it's going to be more difficult now. Last weekend I had the unique opportunity of training with a submission wrestler. I had a great time. As soon as we started it was obvious to me that if I didn't initiate something it was going to be a mexican stand-off of us circling each other and slapping hands looking for a weakness that neither of us were going to give. So I decided to fight his fight (which I was planning to do anyways) and he taught me a lot about ground-fighting. But for me at least, it goes to show that there are applications where aikido works better than others, and all out competition is not one of them. Something else to note is that wrestling and aikido share techniques and principles but just have different names. I, for one, have become an advocate for "alive" training for those wanting to speed up the process of making their fighting techniques applicable. My cross-training in full-contact karate has given me this opportunity and I believe it's good. I now can really try to catch my partners in iriminage during full speed sparring and use other aiki principles. But the important thing for me though is that when I spar or wrestle at 100%, I'm not fighting to beat the other person but rather I'm just challenging myself to get better. We can still have good attitudes and train hard with our brothers and sisters. Kano really was on to something I think.

Infamousapa
06-07-2004, 05:58 PM
I disagree. Genki is really, really good. He much better on the ground that most people give him credit for and his standup is better than Royler's.



Stop the hate. Royce is a bjj black belt. He may not be the "best" at MMA, vale tudo, or sport, but he definately has black belt level skills in all of those arenas.

Regards,

PaulJUST LIKE BRUCE LEE QUOTES"BELTS ARE GOOD TO HOLD YOUR PANTS UP"

PeterR
06-07-2004, 07:02 PM
Tony

Paul was talking about skill levels not a piece of cloth. In BJJ context his skill level is such, compared with others of the same rank. Earned by winning competition.

JasonFDeLucia
06-12-2004, 08:02 PM
I hate to try to resurrect this dead horse, but I feel like I should whip it some more............. I realize that this argument has a lot to do with theoreticals (mainly on the part of people who don't speak from experience), but something should be said about individual skill and applicability. Mr. DeLucia is very skilled and has awesome ability. He can make aikido work for him in whatever situation he chooses. Can I take my aikido skills and fight a NHB/MMA fighter and win? No. Why? Because I'm just not that good. But that DOESN'T mean that aikido doesn't work in that situation. For people like me (not so skilled), aikido can work best against people who overcommittedly attack. When some guy says, "I am going to punch you out", I say "please, I don't want to fight" and he takes a swing at my head unprovoked, this is where my aikido will work best. But, if said situation I say "OK, let's go" and I put my fists up, I'm going to have a much harder time. I've given up my element of surprise and I've raised my opponents defenses. Not saying aikido won't work just that for me it's going to be more difficult now. Last weekend I had the unique opportunity of training with a submission wrestler. I had a great time. As soon as we started it was obvious to me that if I didn't initiate something it was going to be a mexican stand-off of us circling each other and slapping hands looking for a weakness that neither of us were going to give. So I decided to fight his fight (which I was planning to do anyways) and he taught me a lot about ground-fighting. But for me at least, it goes to show that there are applications where aikido works better than others, and all out competition is not one of them. Something else to note is that wrestling and aikido share techniques and principles but just have different names. I, for one, have become an advocate for "alive" training for those wanting to speed up the process of making their fighting techniques applicable. My cross-training in full-contact karate has given me this opportunity and I believe it's good. I now can really try to catch my partners in iriminage during full speed sparring and use other aiki principles. But the important thing for me though is that when I spar or wrestle at 100%, I'm not fighting to beat the other person but rather I'm just challenging myself to get better. We can still have good attitudes and train hard with our brothers and sisters. Kano really was on to something I think.
THANK YOU!

Martin Ruedas
08-10-2004, 12:08 AM
What are you trying to tell us louis? :confused:

Devon Natario
08-10-2004, 12:20 AM
I guess I look at these argument as null and void. You have people that train in Choy Lay Fut that can not use their techniques in a point sparring match. Heck, same goes for most Martial Arts. Kajukenbo's techniques are deadly as well. Im sure most of the arts praticed have strikes to the throat and areas of the body that will incapacitate a person, or locks and throws where a person can end up with broken or injured limbs.

The fact is: Some people train for sport, some people train for spiritual growth, and some people train the "Martial Way". You wouldnt ask a Green Beret or Navy Seal if they would compete in a point sparring match- just as you wouldnt ask a Buddhist Monk to compete with you. However, you may ask the nearest Olympic Tae Kwon Doist to compete in a match, or the nearest Submission Wrestler to hit the mat. Maybe some people out there should read, "Living the Martial Way" to get a better understanding of the differences in people actually train for, and what Martial means.

Bridge
08-10-2004, 02:59 AM
I think it's wonderful that the style of aikido I do doesn't have competition.

Already doing karate means I get my quota of ego pummelling.

One of the things with competition is that the techniques and training are only suitable for competition. I know some people (in karate) who, I'm not entirely sure, know the difference between "point scoring" techniques and "real" ones. Which is a worrying if they end up in a real life confrontation.

It also leads to "training up" for specific events. Which is nigh on like banging one's head against a wall and in some cases make you feel like the instructor is just a mean git out to give you a hard time. Don't get me wrong, sparring/kumite and competition, I enjoy very much...but the number of times, I've felt like flipping the finger at the instructor during competition run up season! Argh!

So it's nice that in aikido, you can learn valuable stuff and explore ideas without the pressures of ego prodding. So don't go changing!

:D

PeterR
08-10-2004, 03:31 AM
Hi Bridget
I think it's wonderful that the style of aikido I do doesn't have competition.

Well at least you are not saying Competition in Aikido is evil.

Already doing karate means I get my quota of ego pummeling.

Ah she truly understands. Never did understand those that say competition develops egos. For the majority of us it keeps us in check.

One of the things with competition is that the techniques and training are only suitable for competition. I know some people (in karate) who, I'm not entirely sure, know the difference between "point scoring" techniques and "real" ones. Which is a worrying if they end up in a real life confrontation.

This clicks nicely with Devon's post just before yours where he said
The fact is: Some people train for sport, some people train for spiritual growth, and some people train the "Martial Way".
I don't think done right there is any need to be mutually exclusive. The benefits of shiai can cross over into spiritual growth, the martial way and real life confrontation. The key is attitude and balance. For example in Shodokan Aikido there is some restriction on techniques during shiai but those restricted techniques are practiced in kata and kata training predominates. The reason for shiai/randori is to develop certain attributes that kata training only can not provide. I would even go so far to say that your experience in karate competition is good for your Aikido even though the techniques in the most part are very different.

In addition to attitude and balance I think the choice of rules also has to bear some relation to all aspects of Budo. For example if light fluffy contact is enough to gain points then the usefulness of point sparring is questionable. Do the rules detract or add to all aspects of the training.

happysod
08-10-2004, 03:39 AM
Well at least you are not saying Competition in Aikido is evil. I'll say it for you instead, it's evil and must be stopped! Before you know it you'll be advocating martial principles and cross-training then where will we be? I defy you to pass the shoelace test when performed properly... :D

Bridge
08-10-2004, 04:02 AM
I'll say it for you instead, it's evil and must be stopped! Before you know it you'll be advocating martial principles and cross-training then where will we be? I defy you to pass the shoelace test when performed properly... :D

Shoelace test? :eek: :

Tell you the truth, I don't understand how aikido competition would work. Perhaps I should go watch one?

PeterR
08-10-2004, 04:17 AM
Shoelace test? :eek: :

Tell you the truth, I don't understand how aikido competition would work. Perhaps I should go watch one?

I have to ask - but what's the Shoelace test?

Bridget - recently someone put up some half decent randori clips.

http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm

Just remember when you watch them that it is full resistance - no one is going down because they want to. The key is speed and timing in addition to technique.

At the moment the pages are down - maybe because of overuse.

Yann Golanski
08-10-2004, 04:44 AM
Bridget,

If you're a train ride from York, then come and train with us. Tomorrow is good as Scott Albright (5th dan) is giving a course at York. His Aikido is not the prettiest you'll ever see but it is very effective. If not, any odd Monday or/and Wednesday night are good for us. Just let me know when.

If not, I am sure that I can give you some Shodokan clubs address closer to where you are. Most of us are friendly and will not mind you either watching or joining in -- in fact, joining in is better!

Ian, the invite goes to you as well. I want to beat you up! *grins evilly* (Yes, for those who are clueless, I'm joking about the beating up... sheeesh....)

happysod
08-10-2004, 04:49 AM
I've had to delete my first attempt to explain the shoelace test after remembering this is a "family site"- basically a ki-test where you're testing whether, after you've dropped the soap, you're on posture while bending over to receive it. That's my best attempt at describing this abortion of a ki-test, needless to say we have lost students thanks to this one.... I like my teacher but boy does he try to make us look stoopid sometimes (and yes it does have a fancy Japanese name, but none of us ever learn it)

Peter, forgot about them - they're much nicer than those "optimised for broadband" monstrosities aren't they. I've yet to manage to download one of them in it's entirety.

Yann, sounds good, I've enjoyed being beaten by those canvas dildoes, I mean tanto in the past - I wonder if my cardio's up to it these days (getting in the old war wound excuses first ha!)

Yann Golanski
08-10-2004, 06:09 AM
Ian,

So, you coming and training tomorrow? It's only a short trip from London!

*grins evilly*

happysod
08-10-2004, 06:48 AM
Short trip from London? Have you been on the rail services in this country recently?

I'll check with boss (partner) and see whether I can grovel a trip up as I am intrigued at seeing your lot in action. (note to self - perhaps I should drop into Paul Wildish's dojo first for a refresher course on tomiki so I can remember what your allowed to do with them there rubber thingies)

Bridge
08-10-2004, 07:13 AM
[QUOTE=Yann Golanski]Bridget,

If you're a train ride from York, then come and train with us. Tomorrow is good as Scott Albright (5th dan) is giving a course at York. His Aikido is not the prettiest you'll ever see but it is very effective. If not, any odd Monday or/and Wednesday night are good for us. Just let me know when.

If not, I am sure that I can give you some Shodokan clubs address closer to where you are. Most of us are friendly and will not mind you either watching or joining in -- in fact, joining in is better!
QUOTE]

Thanks for that Yann,

I don't go that far North very often but if you have details of Shodokan clubs in the South East or perhaps a webpage for these competions, that'd be most appreciated.

Cheers,

Yann Golanski
08-10-2004, 09:53 AM
Bridget, have a look at http://www.aikido-baa.org.uk/baadojo.htm which should have some clubs. I'd recomand checking first as the whole thing is way out of date.

Ian, Paul is certainly going to whip you into shape! Besides, as long as you are safe, I don't mind which techniques you do to me.

mathewjgano
02-22-2005, 08:45 PM
Ah...the age old question: why not compete? The idea in Aikido regarding competing, I think, comes from the idea in Budo that a technique deals with life and death in an instant. To give an example: to compete your best, you must try your best. This in mind, if I am attacked, I don't know how well i could keep from injuring my attacker. I can dislocate many joints and cause spiral fractures...even kill a person by smashing their head into the ground. The real skill in the techniques which do these things comes in NOT harming your attacker. So, if I and a friend are truly trying our best, we are encroaching upon that space in the mind where we may easily harm someone in a life-long way. Not all Aikido training is a prescribed set of moves. I tend to make it a point to include as much spontaneity as possible. The only thing I know in these cases, is that I am about to be attacked.
Joe Lewis, based upon your accounts, sounds rather full of himself and I'd be curious to see him put his money where his mouth is, but that's a very shalow part of me saying that. The truth is all that matters is that I do my best every moment of my life, and that is essentially what Aikido teaches us. The martial aspect of Aikido is derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, which I recently had the pleasure of witnessing. This was based on Samurai warfare...and interestingly enough, it looked like Aikido to me.
All this said, there are many forms of Aikido. Some are "softer" than others, but all have something usefull to offer.
I recommend experiencing as many forms of Aikido as possible.
To give one example of a karate guy who thought Aikido was weak: a senior student to me was practicing the corner drop technique with a mid-level punch. The karate guy kept pulling his punch making the technique not work, so my friend kept saying he needed to punch more sincerely. The karate guy finally came full force and found himself flipping in mid-air. It was unexpected and kind of scared the guy, according to my sempai. Competition is a tricky word, and there is a fine line between one group's definition of it, and another's. Aikidoka always compete with themselves to do better each moment of their lives. This is the nature of AIkido.
Take care,
Matthew

Mato-san
05-05-2006, 10:32 AM
I think there should be a completely different grading syllabus for exchanging in the forums on aikiweb.
A lot of verbal exchange going on, like I used to see. Good to see the crew is keeping up the good work. The intel here is beyond me. But I do love it all. As a spectactor.

Have not seen a Gracie this year in the opening pride tourny held today.
Most were elsewhere last year too.
I miss Royce and his large family.
Joint manipulation is a beautiful art.

As for Aikido in MMA, I can`t see it as being your primary weapon if you want to step into the ring with the likes of these guys (the list is long), but certainly a huge compliment to any other art/arts you are comfortable with. Just an opinion.

Ron Tisdale
05-05-2006, 01:44 PM
Goodbye

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have enjoyed my stay so far.
Thank you for the hospitality.
Thank you to those who aquire respect.
And for those who have reached a level of superior selfness, who have harnessed themselves to point where as they can Judge,calculate and analize other people from their safe keyboard,I wish I was as spiritually tuned as you are., I wish I could tune into others characteristics like you do ,but from here it is difficult for me. Maybee I just I have no place in the aikido cyber world, I wish you all the best "best" with a huge smile.
Bye "BYE".

Hmmm...do you mind if I ask what changed?

Best,
Ron

Mato-san
06-28-2006, 09:58 AM
Ron , I stumbled on this thread in a google adventure.
I guess the aikido cyber world has a centre too. It appears to be aikiweb (in the context that in the cyber world this place seems to be central, thats all). I have a different approach now. I need not explain my approach, but lets say I have learned from all these ppl here (maybe you are one of them) I can`t remember but more importantly I don`t care.
I like to view the verbal exchange, I like to see the knowledge of the MASTERS here. There is a lot of valid discussion here but, personally I don`t like a lot of the opinions and lectures that have no substance. I have been belittled by ppl for bad grammar (not pertaining to aikido at all), I have seen lack of respect toward posters and other stuff I don`t care to type.
Basically I will Join this community and now take it with a grain of salt, I know who is worthy of respect and I know who is trying to make a name for themselves through blatant assertiveness! (check the grammar and bag me at your will).
Still I say good luck.

Ron Tisdale
06-28-2006, 11:19 AM
I can't think of a single person who posts here who would refer to themselves as a "master". Even on their worst days (we all have them).

As to grammer, I make plenty of mistakes myself. But when others point out that my meaning is confused or lost because of those mistakes, I thank them, and try again.

As to agreement...sometimes it is there and sometimes not. It's not that important, but nice when it happens. What I find important is that I think...and continue to refine my thoughts. For that, I need different opinions. Kind of like a chicken eating small stones to help with the digestion. ;)

Best,
Ron

ikkitosennomusha
06-28-2006, 04:03 PM
I choose to think O-sensei did not concieve his beloved art for competition for several reasons.

mickeygelum
06-28-2006, 05:46 PM
I choose to think O-sensei did not concieve his beloved art for competition for several reasons

...If you would'nt mind...I would like to hear those reasons,please.

mathewjgano
06-28-2006, 10:41 PM
Sorry for the aside, but it's strange to read something I wrote over a year ago and think, "that doesn't sound like me!" And of course, to read the message about "masters" making assertions, makes me feel a little...questionable, even though I've never thought I was anywhere near mastery. I've always valued being shown the error of my ways, but still...sometimes I sure do wish I had been born perfect! It would have made everything so much easier!!!
At any rate, while the thought is in mind, if in the past I've ever sounded rude or pompous: Osumimasen.
Take care,
Matt

Kevin Leavitt
06-29-2006, 12:11 AM
I've had the same thing happen to me over the years! I think mastery is somewhat based on contemplation on your past and having the courage and wisdom to say "wow, I was wrong!".

Ron Tisdale
06-29-2006, 08:50 AM
:) Kevin, that's not mastery...that's common sense!

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
06-29-2006, 12:50 PM
you'd think it was common sense, but we are all masters of our own delusion! :)

Who was it...Mark Twain probably...who said, common sense...ain't so common.

Mato-san
08-08-2006, 10:51 AM
Kevin you are a gem

sullivanw
08-08-2006, 03:39 PM
...If you would'nt mind...I would like to hear those reasons,please.

Jumping in here and contributing my two cents. From what I have experenced, there are profound differences in perception when living with a competetive mindset instead of a cooperative mindset. Boiled down to the simplest expression I can come up with, it's the difference between mastery of the other and mastery of the self.
I have a feeling that O'sensei, in his proclaimed state of being one with the universe, actually saw no difference between the self and the other. Thus, how can there be competition with no one to compete with? The whole idea of competition would be rendered absurd, and a waste of time.

-Will

p.s. - this is in no way, shape, or form a critique of Aikido that has incorporated competition. Just my musings on esoteric matters :)

markwalsh
08-08-2006, 04:01 PM
The infection of the competitive mindset to every area of life is the great sickness of our times IMO. To give real examples from the UK - schools, hospitals and prisons are now all ranked in league tables and are encouraged to see themselves as competitors. The really weird one though is when people in relationships start viewing themselves as competitors. Know what I mean?

Anyway, off topic rant over...back to the docks.

ChrisMoses
08-08-2006, 04:22 PM
I have a feeling that O'sensei, in his proclaimed state of being one with the universe, actually saw no difference between the self and the other. Thus, how can there be competition with no one to compete with? The whole idea of competition would be rendered absurd, and a waste of time.

-Will



Care to venture a guess why then O-Sensei felt compelled into a salt water drinking contest? If he was too enlightened to see a difference between himself and others, seems like he could have avoided the misery that came from drinking so much of the stuff in order to 'win'. ;)

Kevin Leavitt
08-08-2006, 04:43 PM
Competition can also be a healthy way to benchmark ourselves and our development. It becomes unhealthy when we take it too serious, or do it for the wrong reasons.

I do competitions in BJJ and submission fighting. It motivates me, I have developed some very good friendships, it has shown where I have grown and where I have weaknesses. I do not care too much about winning or losing, only doing.

markwalsh
08-08-2006, 05:53 PM
Competition can also be a healthy way to benchmark ourselves and our development. It becomes unhealthy when we take it too serious, or do it for the wrong reasons.


Totally agree. I think the world has just gotten a bit out of balance with regards to competition and cooperation, and as you say, the reasons behind competition ar important too.

DonMagee
08-08-2006, 05:58 PM
I love competition. I like it not because of winning, but because I know I went out there and tried as hard as I could, and I stand respected amoung my peers for it. There is a minority who care only about winning. But for most people I've met, they care about the struggle more then the medal.

If there was a tomiki style aikido dojo by me, I'd probably train and try some competitions. I love judo, bjj, mma, and even boxing. I'm sure I would love aikido competitions as well.

CNYMike
08-08-2006, 08:00 PM
Competition can also be a healthy way to benchmark ourselves and our development .... I do competitions in BJJ and submission fighting. It motivates me, I have developed some very good friendships, it has shown where I have grown and where I have weaknesses. I do not care too much about winning or losing, only doing.

Yes, that is the goal with sparring, not to care about "winning" or "losing," and you can be trying to "win" even in a class situation when you think you're not doing it. I learned this the hard way. That's why I say your ego and your pride can be working on you even when you think they're not. And I would be lying if I said I was there yet, although I understand that's where I want to be.

Personally, I started doing Jun Fan/JKD back in May, so of course, there's more sparring involved. My current goal now is just to learn not to hate it. (Yes, back in the day in karate, I was a punching bag with legs; how did you guess?) Consequently, I'm not worried that the Aikido dojo I go to is into cooperative practice as I already get the sparring elsewhere. Sifu Dan Inosanto is famous for saying every martial art has something to offer, so an art with no sparring has benefits, even if it's not the same as a system that does.

Besides, if everything was the same, what fun would that be? Wouldn't that be be boring? I think so. Vive la difference!

Aristeia
08-08-2006, 09:42 PM
I've had some interesting conversations with some of my BJJ guys lately as to whether you train to do better in competitions or compete to enhance your training. i.e. do you learn so you can win, or do you compete so you can learn.

For me it's unquestionably the latter.

markwalsh
08-09-2006, 12:02 AM
:yuck: :crazy: :mad:
So I was just throwing my hands up in despair at the competitiveness, flamimg, bitchin, proposterone and posturing that occours on some Aiki Web threads (not this one thankfully) - when I realised I dont have a point of reference.

So question for people who use other discussion sites - how aiki are AikiWeb users by comparisson? Does the whole aikido thing show up at all in our interactions?

Cheers,
Mark

Aristeia
08-09-2006, 05:56 AM
In my experience Aikiweb is pretty civil by comparison to a number of other sites/forums.

gdandscompserv
08-09-2006, 06:15 AM
I don't care for competition. :)

DonMagee
08-09-2006, 07:07 AM
:yuck: :crazy: :mad:
So I was just throwing my hands up in despair at the competitiveness, flamimg, bitchin, proposterone and posturing that occours on some Aiki Web threads (not this one thankfully) - when I realised I dont have a point of reference.

So question for people who use other discussion sites - how aiki are AikiWeb users by comparisson? Does the whole aikido thing show up at all in our interactions?

Cheers,
Mark

Well, I swear a lot less here, that's for sure :-) I find discussions here can be hit and miss. Sometimes we get a good discussion that goes right to the heart of the issue, and other times we just have circular arguments that end up dying a flaming death.

mickeygelum
08-09-2006, 07:40 AM
O Sensei got on a train and challenged a sumo champion, he defeated him...but, yet challenged him, yeah, you are right he NEVER used his beloved art to compete in any way....y'all need to research O Sensei just a little more...

Miku-san

....oh, forgot to mention that he provoked the sumo champion into the confrontation

Mark Freeman
08-09-2006, 08:00 AM
I was once told that the root of the word competitor is similar to that of companion, and that the runner wants his friend to race against him to improve his own performance. I like that explanation, even if the etymology is not correct.

A contest has 'rules' and when the whistle blows there is a recognised winner/loser/drawer.

Judo BJJ and the like I see as chess with alot more sweat and grunting.

Aikido is not a sport so the rules are not the same. The only person to 'beat' is oneself, and even that doesn't sound right.

The way of harmony with ki, how do you compete with that?

regards,

Mark

DonMagee
08-09-2006, 08:09 AM
I would say the competition part is about perfection of timing and physical form. These things lead you to perfecting spirital and other internal forms. There are aikido competitions, so someone must find some value in it.

A lot of people do not put any stock in perfecting physical form. It is a choice they make, and there is nothing wrong with it. My personal beleif is that you have to perfect the physical forms in order to better understand the mental underpinnings.

When I go to compettion, I am mostly competing against myself. I'm trying to do 'better' then I did last time. I'm trying to improve my game. Its about self improvement. Everyone else there is just a tool for my self improvement. Of course there is the thrill of the match and the adrenaline rush and all that goood stuff. But really I go because I like sparing against different people, and you learn the most from sparing with someone you have never met.

DaveS
08-09-2006, 10:51 AM
Yes, that is the goal with sparring, not to care about "winning" or "losing," and you can be trying to "win" even in a class situation when you think you're not doing it. I learned this the hard way. That's why I say your ego and your pride can be working on you even when you think they're not. And I would be lying if I said I was there yet, although I understand that's where I want to be.
Yeah, I think learning to deal with this sort of thing is definitely something I'm getting out of the sort of competition that we have - by introducing a little competition into our aikido in the form of shiai bouts, maybe we're learning firstly not to think of an opponent as an enemy and then to be more philosophical about winning or losing in real life.

deepsoup
08-09-2006, 10:57 AM
I was once told that the root of the word competitor is similar to that of companion, and that the runner wants his friend to race against him to improve his own performance. I like that explanation, even if the etymology is not correct.
I like that view of things too, and the etymology is correct, afaik.

The "com" part of the word is the same, and means "together"

In "companion", the second part is from "panis" meaning bread - a companion is someone you share bread with.

In "compete" the second part is from "petere" meaning strive or seek (its the root of "petition"). So "compete" literally means strive, or seek together.

Funnily enough, the Japanese 'shiai' carries much the same meaning.

Its all latin, by the way.
There's a good etymological dictionary online here:
http://www.etymonline.com/

Sean
x

CNYMike
08-09-2006, 10:59 AM
I've had some interesting conversations with some of my BJJ guys lately as to whether you train to do better in competitions or compete to enhance your training. i.e. do you learn so you can win, or do you compete so you can learn.

For me it's unquestionably the latter.

I look on sparring as a training method, but one of many; ideally, you shouldn't feel any differently about it than anything else. Getting to that point is the hard part.

CNYMike
08-09-2006, 11:01 AM
So question for people who use other discussion sites - how aiki are AikiWeb users by comparisson? Does the whole aikido thing show up at all in our interactions?

Cheers,
Mark

Well, one of the points of getting on the Internet is to argue. So if you like to argue, well, this is the place to be. :o As to how "Aiki" we are away from the computer, I have no clue. But I get my arguing out of my system online, so I guess I'm ok in the real life thing.

Budd
08-09-2006, 11:12 AM
I think, a lot of the time, there's a disconnect between interpretations of "the way of harmony with energy/spirit/the universe" versus what Ueshiba Morihei was "teaching" versus what he was "doing". Different teachers on down various lineages seem to have different interpretations of all of the above. What matters most is likely the compatability of your goals with your relationship with your instructor and how that all fits in with what you're specifically training.

CNYMike
08-09-2006, 11:19 AM
.... There are aikido competitions, so someone must find some value in it.....

Yeah, but there are plenty of branches of Aikido that don't do it, and it seems to be bound up with Aikido politics (as if that ins't obvious by now).

I think one advantage of cooperative practice is that by repeating the same reference points over and over again, they get burned into your muscle memory and you recognize them when they appear. This is how nikkyo came out a couple of time during push hands in Tai Chi. It's not that the pins and throws are better or worse than versions in other systems, but repeating them so often burns them into you.

And yes, I think something MIGHT have popped out during practice sparring once, but even after all these months, I am still evaluating it. Coulda been ikkyo. So it's possible.

markwalsh
08-09-2006, 11:23 AM
I see two kinds of "arguing": a competitive exercise where you aim to defeat an opponent, and a collaborative exercise where conversation builds knowledge on both sides. Win-lose zero sum or win-win game.

Michael - as for catharsis - I get it - same way aikido helps me get my aggression out. I guess my questions about that would be:

1. Is it kind/useful/ appropriate for us to vent on AikiWeb (I'm not saying I don't do it!!!)
2. How do you differentiate catharsis from practicing being aggressive? Studies of aggression generally indicate that catharsis is a myth and is completely infective way of reducing aggression, and while I'm not sure I agree with this, I guess when I think about it, I see aikido as transformative rather than cathartic.

Thanks for the input.

Mark Freeman
08-09-2006, 12:17 PM
I like that view of things too, and the etymology is correct, afaik.

The "com" part of the word is the same, and means "together"

In "companion", the second part is from "panis" meaning bread - a companion is someone you share bread with.

In "compete" the second part is from "petere" meaning strive or seek (its the root of "petition"). So "compete" literally means strive, or seek together.

Funnily enough, the Japanese 'shiai' carries much the same meaning.

Its all latin, by the way.
There's a good etymological dictionary online here:
http://www.etymonline.com/

Sean
x

Thanks Sean,

I appreciate the link, it's been added to my favourites :cool:

cheers

Mark

DonMagee
08-09-2006, 01:39 PM
Thinking about this further. The greatest gains in skill have always come from me losing in competition. I learn the most about where I need to focus attention by getting beaten by a person who wants to win, vs a sparing match where my partner might be toning it down to keep the match interesting.

Ron Tisdale
08-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Hi Mark W.,

I think AikiWeb is doing just fine, even with some of the current side discussions. I think in some ways we've made pretty good strides recently, with some very interesting topics being more openly discussed and with more information sharing. Some of that progress has been difficult to achieve.

If I look at this board and some others:

E-budo -- the Aikido forum is not anywhere near as active as this board, or even as it used to be.

AJ -- Same. A strong effort was made there toward more moderation to cull out the dross and flakes...it almost killed the board. Luckily it has survived, but at some cost.

BudoSeek -- again, the aikido forum is not anywhere near as popular as AikiWeb.

So I think this forum does very well when stacked up against the "competition" (just so's to stay on topic)...

Is it kind/useful/ appropriate for us to vent on AikiWeb

KInd?? Now we have to be KIND?? ;)

Useful...sometimes.

Appropriate...sometimes. Almost everything is appropriate...sometime...

Best,
Ron

Aristeia
08-09-2006, 01:49 PM
Thinking about this further. The greatest gains in skill have always come from me losing in competition. I learn the most about where I need to focus attention by getting beaten by a person who wants to win, vs a sparing match where my partner might be toning it down to keep the match interesting.Absolutely. Sparring is the laboratory. Competition is what tells you what you really know and what you don't.. Alot of people drop around 6 months training as soon as they step on a competition mat. That's something worth knowing....

markwalsh
08-09-2006, 04:37 PM
Cheers Ron at al,

Good to get sopme perspective. Was in a bad mood yesterday. Gotta learn not to take life personally and just to utterly destroy the forces that oppose me efficently and cooly...or blend with them...bloddy aikistuff...

Some great discussions alive today,
Mark

CNYMike
08-09-2006, 07:10 PM
.... 1. Is it kind/useful/ appropriate for us to vent on AikiWeb (I'm not saying I don't do it!!!)
2. How do you differentiate catharsis from practicing being aggressive? .....

Good questions. I'm not sure I'd call what I do online -- not just in Aikiweb but in usenet, too -- "venting." Is it being aggressive? If it is, it's so subtle, I don't know it!

I suppose I like to argue more than I should. Is that "aggressive"? No idea. But I try to avoid staying in a contentious thread too long because they can be emotionally draining. It's easy enough to do in Usenet because I use forte agent in offline mode; I see a thread that already has hundreds of replies, I avoid it! Harder to do in a BB situation like this one. But I try not to get stuck in threads for too long. I don't always succeed, but I try!

CNYMike
08-09-2006, 07:14 PM
I see two kinds of "arguing": a competitive exercise where you aim to defeat an opponent, and a collaborative exercise where conversation builds knowledge on both sides. Win-lose zero sum or win-win game ....

Rereading this gave me a flashback to Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch:

"This isn't an argument."

"Yes, it is."

"No, it isn't!"

You might be a Monty Python addict if ..... Don't get me started! :D

markwalsh
08-09-2006, 07:28 PM
What about, "This is an arguement!"
"Yes it is, you're right!"
"But now it's not"
"But now it is again!"

Just made that up - yeah me - Python warped my fragile young mind growing up :-)

CNYMike
08-09-2006, 07:33 PM
What about, "This is an arguement!"
"Yes it is, you're right!"
"But now it's not"
"But now it is again!"

Just made that up - yeah me - Python warped my fragile young mind growing up :-)

My mom and I got hooked on the "Argument Clinic." A friend of ours probably thought we had lost our marbles until she heard the source material.

... yeah, off topic, but Monty Python may be even more addictive than Aikido!

wendyrowe
08-09-2006, 09:03 PM
I use competition as a way to test myself and my use of my art so that I can find my weaknesses and work to eliminate them. If I always worked cooperatively with people, I'd never find my weaknesses. I don't actually go to tournaments and compete to win prizes, but I do test myself against others in class and visiting whenever possible since that gives the broadest scope for trying stuff out.
Good questions. I'm not sure I'd call what I do online -- not just in Aikiweb but in usenet, too -- "venting." Is it being aggressive? If it is, it's so subtle, I don't know it!

I suppose I like to argue more than I should. Is that "aggressive"? No idea. But I try to avoid staying in a contentious thread too long because they can be emotionally draining. It's easy enough to do in Usenet because I use forte agent in offline mode; I see a thread that already has hundreds of replies, I avoid it! Harder to do in a BB situation like this one. But I try not to get stuck in threads for too long. I don't always succeed, but I try!
When I've been involved in a thread for any length of time, it's been because the posts have been helping me think things through, clarify my thinking and refine my ideas. I don't post just to argue, and (naive as I am) I'm surprised to see a poster say one of the reasons to come onto forums is to argue. That may well explain the behavior I've seen on some forums (not this one, of course!). I've been using email and forum precursors extensively for the past 25 years, which has been plenty of time to see what happens when people send whatever they think without thinking it through and to learn that careful writing and civil discourse is still by far the best way to use this media despite the freedom that comes with anonymity and non-heirarchy.
yeah, off topic, but Monty Python may be even more addictive than Aikido!
No it's not!!! (And this is from someone who had the entire Parrot, Cheese Shop and Sheep in the Trees sketches memorized in high school.)

Mark Uttech
08-09-2006, 09:52 PM
I recently read an article that spoke of aikido as involving internal competition rather than external competition. I am sure many of us go through many internal reactions and responses as we go.

Erick Mead
08-09-2006, 10:07 PM
No it's not!!! (And this is from someone who had the entire Parrot, Cheese Shop and Sheep in the Trees sketches memorized in high school.) "It's getting-hit-on-the-head lessons in here."

That makes it on-topic, BTW.

"And when they get an idea'r in their 'eads -- there's no shiftin' it."

Yann Golanski
08-10-2006, 02:52 AM
I like that view of things too, and the etymology is correct, afaik.

The "com" part of the word is the same, and means "together"

In "companion", the second part is from "panis" meaning bread - a companion is someone you share bread with.


The French copain (mate, friend, originally slang now moving into common parlance) has the same root. The origine, as far as I know, comes from lower class backgrounds. Bread was used as a plate and food put on it. To share your bread, you were effectively eating from the same plate.


Its all latin, by the way.
There's a good etymological dictionary online here:
http://www.etymonline.com/


Latin and classics in general are much under rated and it's a shame. Anyone should read Gaius Julius Ceasar and Cicero. Nescire quid antea quam natus sis accideret id est semper puerum esse - quid enim est aetas hominis nisi memoria rerum nostrarum cum superiorum aetate contexerit

Mark Freeman
08-10-2006, 05:19 AM
Python warped my fragile young mind growing up :-)

You and many others of us Mark, it seems that there may be some tenuous connection between this mind warping and the later take up of aikido ;)

personally I think if we could find a 'lapgogh' dojo we'd all be doing that :D

regards,

Mark
p.s. for those unaware of 'lapgogh' it is a welsh martial art where you walk up to people and hit them before they think of hitting you! :D Created by the pythons of course.

Mark Uttech
08-10-2006, 11:24 AM
Aikido tradition indeed does have its own 'lapgogh' expressed by "katsuhayabi" created by O'Sensei.

CNYMike
08-10-2006, 11:40 AM
"It's getting-hit-on-the-head lessons in here."


But remember when uke feeds shomenuchi to go "Waaa!"

I have no idea how to get back on topic from that. :)

CNYMike
08-10-2006, 11:43 AM
Aikido tradition indeed does have its own 'lapgogh' expressed by "katsuhayabi" created by O'Sensei.

Michael Palin (I think) once said he was amazed to learn when things he and the other Pythons came up with as jokes actually happened. This another example, the one he thought of being the Kamikaze Scotsmen and their resemblance to the medieval Assasins.

Of course, that now leads me to wonder about the sketch where the wrestler is fighting .... himself. It's in the Live at the Hollywood Bowl movie, IIRC.