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ewodaj
07-10-2003, 09:07 PM
I have read about a few martial arts im thinking about learning...aikido seems like one of the hardest martial arts to learn and master...it seems more like a spiritual art rather than self-defense and that is a good thing...I looked into american kempo, judo, kickboxing, karate, tkd, etc and all of them dont seem to interest me the way hapkido does...I want a martial art mainly for self-defense and getting into shape...im already in pretty good shape, but I want something that will help me in terms of self-defense and getting into better shape...I read about hapkido and I know it's kind of similar to aikido and judo...I think its related to them some how...can anyone tell me if they know if hapkido is effective as a self-defense tool? I believe it is because I read about it and hapkido interests me a great deal...the thing is there are no hapkido dojos around where I live and I checked and checked...anyone have any opinions on hapkido? I know it might not be fair to ask this, but is hapkido more effective than aikido in real life situations?

Charles Hill
07-10-2003, 09:35 PM
Hi Louis,

You've been posting a lot of questions/comments today that seem a little trollish. I'm sure that's not true, but it would cool if you introduced yourself, told a little more about you so people won't get the wrong impression.

Charles Hill

PhilJ
07-10-2003, 10:09 PM
For fitness, I usually considered muay thai or even vigorous kung fu. I never stuck with either because the philosophies were so contrary to my own, but I still found them to be quite entertaining and physical.

Of course, nothing screams fitness like a good randori/jiyuwaza (random attacks) class in aikido. :)

*Phil

ewodaj
07-10-2003, 10:10 PM
Hi Louis,

You've been posting a lot of questions/comments today that seem a little trollish. I'm sure that's not true, but it would cool if you introduced yourself, told a little more about you so people won't get the wrong impression.

Charles Hill
I have no martial arts training...im real picky when it comes to an art...one minute ill be interested in one art and the next I want to learn another...ive been doing a lot of research on different martial arts and the 2 that im most interested in are hapkido and aikido...since aikido is an harder martial art to master and it takes many years for you to really feel comfortable with the techniques used in aikido I feel that it might not necessarily be the martial art I want to deal with...hapkido is more to my liking and I really want to learn it, but they arent any hapkido dojos where I live...I want to take up martial arts for a few reasons and some of the reasons are:

im a skinny guy with not a lot of strength...martial arts will hopefully make me become a stronger person mentally and physically...I want to learn to defend myself just in case a dangerous situation arises and I want to be ready...I dont want to sound selfish and egotistical by saying I just want to learn martial arts for self-defense reasons, but its a real crazy world out there and I feel that I dont want to be a casualty of the streets...martial arts will make me a better person I believe...

Kyri Honigh
07-10-2003, 11:48 PM
Nice..yet I fail to see why Aikido would be LESS effective than Hapkido.Roughly put hapkido is a hybrid of aikijutsu and the korean kicking arts.Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of wich is best and really train.I hate the theorethical types when it comes down to martial arts.You'll never become stronger without proper training.And remember that every martial art out there will make you a better fighter and person if you just put enough effort in it.

Oh yea its a crazy world out there all right, but you do try to avoid the crazy places right??

Bottomline: Train well covering all facets of self defense.Strategy, technique and fitness.Your situation will never improve by sitting behind your monitor

Clayton Drescher
07-11-2003, 03:10 AM
Well Louis,

I got my 9th Kub in hapkido in May after about 4 months of training...so I'm no expert, but the course (I took it as a PE course at the University of Texas) was entitled Self-Defense/Hapkido. Our instructor, a 10th Dan in hapkido, called the forms we learned "self-defence" technique 1, 2, etc. Hapkido is very similar to aikido in many ways, I believe it was developed by a Korean gentleman who spent some time training in Japan earlier in the 20th century. It also has certain Korean aspects, punches and kicks, and was much more sharp, short, and "brutal" feeling....in my opinion as a hapkido-turned-aikido newbie. A sensei at my dojo teaches a style of aikido which felt very similar to the hapkido escapes and pins i learned in aikido so I think there is definitely some crossover. In hapkido you will definitely learn more strikes than you ever would in aikido which might be more "useful" in a self-defense situation.

My personal opinion is that after taking these two martial arts for the past 7 months or so I feel much more confident in a self-defense-type situation just because I now have a much much better notion of how to move MY body in relation with an attacker's even if I may not be able to remember any complex techniques off-hand....nobody can hang on to my wrist or bear hug me from behind that I don't want to anymore. I may not be able to do much more beyond get out of that position and throw a kick their way, but that's 100times better than struggling and not getting away.

Good luck finding a hapkido dojo, I know a good one in Austin if you're interested :)

Clayton

Ian Heap
07-11-2003, 05:17 AM
Blimey Louis,

I'm from the UK so cannot really tell you which Dojo to try to train at, but I , like you have thought long and hard about which martial arts to take up. I Have a little background in Karate, (the usual thing to do as a kid growing up) and also checked out a couple of kickboxing classes. As Kyri Honigh (earlier on this forum) said, maybe you shoudl just go train. As far as Keeping fit, most aiki classes give you a fiarly good work out in so far as you are moving around a lot.:D I trained in aik jujutsu and found it to be a good work out, although we didn't go for full out ROUNDS and Sparring, just doing the techniques , and as Philip Johnson said, after a couple of random attacks you get a pretty good work out, also if you are doing a technique that leads you to be doing break falls, just getting back up can become a work out in itself!!:) So basically, try one and see if it likes you! Aikido, as you have said, does look to be a hard art to learn, aiki jujutsu ios very similar in that respect. A bit like driving, once you have passed your driving test, then you really start to learn.(do you get what i mean?) Anyway, best of look searching for an art.!IAN

Paul Klembeck
07-11-2003, 06:28 AM
If you want to defend yourself, go to RMCAT or a Fastdefense seminar (or whatever your area has that is equivalent). One weekend, 98% of realistic self defense needs, done.

For fitness, join a gym. Much more effective than any martial art, as they are directly pointed at that goal.

Do a martial art only if it is interesting for its own sake. If aikido is what you find interesting, great, otherwise do something else.

Paul

SeiserL
07-11-2003, 08:57 AM
IMHO, it is not the style but the practicioner that make a martial art effective in self-defense. Study what is available and you are drawn to. They all have their positives and their negatives.

Mark Williams
07-11-2003, 09:02 AM
Louis, nice question.

It depends what you're looking for. Hapkido is (very) basically a mixture of Aikido and Taekwondo. For that reason it is taught very differently depending on where you learn. Some schools follow the kicking and striking path, some follow the locks and throws path, and some try to get a bit of both. It's an interesting martial art, but schools are difficult to come by.

If you want a martial art where you will get fit and flexible, then you can't go wrong with Taekwondo. However, my experience of Taekwondo and Karate (about three years in each) is that they are not particularly practical if you have to use them in a street situation. The fancy kicks from Taekwondo are fantastic to watch, but it's a little difficult to kich someone in the head when they are standing three inches from you. However, if you want to build up your strength, flexibility and fitness then they are great.

If you are looking for a martial art that will be effective on the street, then you would probably be best to consider Jujitsu, Judo or boxing. Aikido is also very effective, but you need to be able to agree with the philosophy behind it.

Whichever martial art you choose, you will find that the greatest thing you will learn is confidence and respect for others. When I go out with my Aiki friends we are the least agressive people in town, but we also have the knowledge that we could easily go into any bar and throw everyone out of the window. You'll find that when you are confident in your ability you will no longer have a desire to try to prove yourself to anyone. That's the greatest benefit.

Michael Neal
07-11-2003, 09:20 AM
If you want to learn how to defend yourself in is quicker way than learning Aikido I would try judo or BJJ. Or why not take Aikido and another martial art to round out your skills.

jvadakin
07-11-2003, 09:42 AM
Hi, Louis. I just began studying Aikido in the last two months, so I can sympathize with your effort to find a martial art! I also tend to be very academic about everything I do, and like you I shopped around a bit before joining a dojo. I assume from the fact that you posted here that there is an Aikido dojo in your area, but there is no Hapkido. Well, unless you're going to move, you might as well forget about Hapkido! I'll tell you about my experiences so far in Aikido. I train 3-4 days a week for one hour per day. I have finally (6 years later) lost my "freshman 15" pounds! I also feel much more energetic so that I have been able to start weight lifting. In terms of self- defense, I think it will be awhile (probably a few years) before I could really apply Aikido techniques effectively "on the street." But, you know, time passes anyway and I'm not preparing for a showdown or anything. I'm happy I joined an Aikido dojo but everyone is different. I would, however, warn you that even basic Aikdio techniques require a greater degree of coordination than basic karate or taekwondo techniques. Good luck and I hope you find something that works for you.

C. Emerson
07-11-2003, 11:07 AM
I fairly easy, Hapkido address's all ranges of fighting. It is very effective. Judo BJJ Do not address all ranges of fighting. I have preached this for years, on most ground controls in judo or BJJ. If I can find your eyes or groin or even bite you, You will be letting go of me. Thats the one thing that MMA does not show, and It shouldn't either.

If your style does not prepare you for striking the clinch and the ground, then your not prepared. Thats the real world. Hapkido address's those.

Alright, let em fly!

Chad

Sharon Seymour
07-11-2003, 11:15 AM
I agree with Paul.

If you want to learn self-defense, choose a street self defense program such as RMCAT. For getting in shape, join a gym.

To use martial arts study for self-defense or conditioning training is to throw away 98% of their benefit.

Just read a little epigram in the book Living the Martial Way -- "there are no superior martial arts, just superior martial artists."

Larry Feldman
07-11-2003, 11:43 AM
You might base your decision on the quality of Hapkido and Aikido schools/teachers in your vicinity. Do you really have a choice?

bob_stra
07-11-2003, 11:47 AM
If I had to choose one art, readily available, for SD purposes I'd choose either boxing or judo. (MMA as an outside bet)

That would cover the physical aspect. The rest can be gleaned here -

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

BTW - you realize you intermixed aikido with hapkido in your post? Not the same thing IIRC. As for which of the two is better....

ewodaj
07-11-2003, 11:52 AM
Nice..yet I fail to see why Aikido would be LESS effective than Hapkido.Roughly put hapkido is a hybrid of aikijutsu and the korean kicking arts.Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of wich is best and really train.I hate the theorethical types when it comes down to martial arts.You'll never become stronger without proper training.And remember that every martial art out there will make you a better fighter and person if you just put enough effort in it.

Oh yea its a crazy world out there all right, but you do try to avoid the crazy places right??

Bottomline: Train well covering all facets of self defense.Strategy, technique and fitness.Your situation will never improve by sitting behind your monitor
why are you being a smartass? im just asking some questions...you hate theorethical types? im not just going to pick any martial arts to learn...I want to learn an art that im interested in...like I said. there are absolutely no hapkido dojos where I live, so im at a loss...doesnt aikido tell you to treat people with kindness? please, no more smartass responses...I just want information and I know some of you study aikido...

ewodaj
07-11-2003, 11:56 AM
I fairly easy, Hapkido address's all ranges of fighting. It is very effective. Judo BJJ Do not address all ranges of fighting. I have preached this for years, on most ground controls in judo or BJJ. If I can find your eyes or groin or even bite you, You will be letting go of me. Thats the one thing that MMA does not show, and It shouldn't either.

If your style does not prepare you for striking the clinch and the ground, then your not prepared. Thats the real world. Hapkido address's those.

Alright, let em fly!

Chad
I heard hapkido is good for real life situations chad...what martial arts have you trained in chad? what are the differences between hapkido and aikido? I know hapkido is a korean art and aikido is a japanese art, but what are the similarities/differences between the 2 arts?

bob_stra
07-11-2003, 11:57 AM
I fairly easy, Hapkido address's all ranges of fighting. It is very effective. Judo BJJ Do not address all ranges of fighting. I have preached this for years, on most ground controls in judo or BJJ. If I can find your eyes or groin or even bite you, You will be letting go of me.
;-)

Is that before or after I pound you into a bloody pulp and twist all your limbs off?

Seriously, ppl keep going on and on abt these dirty techniques, but grapplers are some of the most sadistic SOB in the arts. They know way to hurt you you ain't never even though of! Ever been held down (by your armpit hairs) while a guy grabbed your family jewels and ground his unshaven chin into your eye socket? Welcome to grappling ;-)

Also, the whole "get a superior position, immobilize, control" thing kinda works against ya ;-)

C. Emerson
07-11-2003, 12:24 PM
O.k, I will do the right thing and step down. I'm not going to battle with anyones ego. It was my opinion and my experience. All I was stating was that there are alot of ranges and one needs to be proficient. Are we debating that?

Shurely grappling arts are effective. But they don't focus on all areas. Ala BJJ and Judo. BTW Hapkido is as proficient with Jointlocking as any MA. So your coment about twisting joints off. Do you think that BJJ and Judo are the only arts that understand the mechanics of locks and throws.

Shurely wasn't trying to invoke that response.

Btw, Why do all of the MMA cross train in all of the Ranges. Why do the BJJ, wrestling and Judo fighters learn striking? It is because they need to supplement there training.

Hapkido is not the best martial art out there, it is only one of many. Although it focus's on all ranges.

Thats the fact Jack!

Chad

C. Emerson
07-11-2003, 12:26 PM
BOB WROTE:

Also, the whole "get a superior position, immobilize, control" thing kinda works against ya ;-)

I think it is- CONTROL POSITION SUBMISSION.

Michael Neal
07-11-2003, 12:34 PM
I honestly do not believe that hapkido would have a chance grappling against a wrestler, judoka, or BJJ. So even though it focuses on more ranges it is rather weak at most of those ranges. Also, its striking is based on TKD which, in my view, is one of the weaker striking arts.

And as far as the joint locks etc, I think Aikido is more suitable than Hapkido. Hapkido's strentgh may be that it has alot of ranges but I dont think it is particularly strong in any of them.

C. Emerson
07-11-2003, 12:36 PM
No argument here about the grappling, the TKD part is not entirley true. It depends on the style of Hapkido. There are different styles, which incorporate different striking.

C. Emerson
07-11-2003, 12:48 PM
Make no mistake about it, running into a Hapkido expert would rank right up there with any other lethal weapon from another style. They are dangerous, there knowledge and ability has great depth. I agree, in a BJJ sport match, A Aikido and Hapkido and what ever else would probably lose terribly. It's not there expertise.

I encourage people to learn more about this art.

The comment about weaker in some areas. Maybe yes and maybe no. I we are talking about being able to do all of the Kodokan Judo throws perfectly. No Other styles are not going to be as good at Judo as a Judomplayer would be. Although, If you look at MMA They only use a handful of techniques from all styles. Grappling or striking. It is a percentage game. WEhich techniques have they highest percentage of working. So when you look at what really does work. It is only a handful of techniques.

I believe in a real fight, you can throw out about 70-80 percent of your curriculum. And focus on the basics, or bread and butter. The techniques that are tried and true. The ones you have the greatest confidence in. Not that the other techniques would not work. Some just work better than others.

MikeE
07-11-2003, 01:35 PM
Chad,

Obviously Hapkido is the art you've chosen. So, it stands to reason it is the "best art there is" for you. You wouldn't train in the 2nd or 3rd best art you came across would you?

That being said... My personal experiences with Hapkido left me cold. I wasn't overly impressed. But, that's just my opinion. I'm sure there are some fantastic Hapkido people out there (i.e. the scary lethal weapon type). But, as far as I'm concerned if I wanted that I would learn to drink and drive. I can be twice as scary and lethal.

Finally: Aikido is an amazing art for self-defense/self-protection.

opherdonchin
07-11-2003, 02:10 PM
I once heard it said that boxers do relatively well 'on the street' because they are the only martial art that always trains not to pull punches. All the other arts you spend a lot of your time limiting your training because you don't want to hurt / kill / maim your opponent.

Thankfully, I have no street experience. I also have no strong opinions on this issue (except, maybe, that I find it slightly amusing), but I thought I'd throw that idea into the fray.

Patrick O'Reilly
07-11-2003, 02:34 PM
I think the "just go train" idea sums it all up. Not only can you get into the "which art is best" discussion then it's the "which style in that art is the best" and on and on and on. Set a goal. Say pick an art and a school, train there for six months, if you don't like it move on. THE THINGS YOU LEARN THERE YOU WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO TAKE WITH YOU WHERE EVER YOU GO. I started in Kempo Karate/Jujitsu then Tai Chi then Aikido. Part of that had to do with what was availible where I was living. I am still in Aikido and plan to stay there. I prefer throws/locks/pins to kicks/punches/strikes. I think part of the decision on where to go is on which one of those two categories you like. If you like both a lot find one that has both.

Half the reason I study a martial art is for self defence, the other half is to keep in shape and get me out of the house. IVe met a lot of nice people while training. I'm not concerned about the color of my belt or how long it will take to "master" the art, I'm having a lot of fun and that's more important to me. I know I see a lot of smiling faces in Aikido which seems kind of funny to be smiling after your face (body) was just planted in the mat.

I guess my question is "if your not in it for the long haul why study of them".

Dave Miller
07-11-2003, 02:56 PM
I'm sure there are some fantastic Hapkido people out there (i.e. the scary lethal weapon type). But, as far as I'm concerned if I wanted that I would learn to drink and drive. I can be twice as scary and lethal.I gotta agree. I think that the whole "lethal weapon" angle has nothing to do with traditional martial arts. You don't study martial arts to become a "lethal weapon", you train in hopes that you won't have to fight.

I think that in many dojo's, if they sense that someone is there for the purpose of becoming a "lethal weapon" they would discourage you from training, especially in Aikido and similar arts. There are other (dare I say, less traditional) dojos where they encourage the "lethal weapon" mentality. Personally, I think that the whole "lethal weapon" is sort of a silly, twisted macho nonsense sort of thing, but that's just one man's opinion. The problem with being a "lethal weapon" is there will always be someone a little better just waiting to whoop ya. ;)

bob_stra
07-11-2003, 05:29 PM
>O.k, I will do the right thing and step >down.

huh?

>I'm not going to battle with anyones ego. It >was my opinion and my experience.

Oh I see.

Chad, I was just funning with you. No need to be so serious. I thought the copious smilies gave it away ;-)

>All I was stating was that there are alot of >ranges and one needs to be proficient. Are >we debating that?

Not at all! I just made that point on another thread myself.

>Shurely grappling arts are effective. But >they don't focus on all areas. Ala BJJ and >Judo. BTW Hapkido is as proficient with >Jointlocking as any MA.

Ok. Not what I understood from your fist message.

>So your coment about twisting joints off. Do >you think that BJJ and Judo are the only >arts that understand the mechanics of locks >and throws.

No, but they are surely pre-eminent amongst the contenders ;-)

>Shurely wasn't trying to invoke that >response.

Take a look at the way you wrote it ;-)

...and Don't call me shurely

;-)

>Hapkido is not the best martial art out >there, it is only one of many. Although it >focus's on all ranges.

Cool beans.

C. Emerson
07-12-2003, 08:35 AM
Lethal weapon- I knew you guys would like it.

I'm just defending an art that is getting no respect on this board. It' never been appropriate to dis another art.

I have not said anything disrespectful about another art, nor have I said that one art is better than the other.

ewodaj
07-12-2003, 01:35 PM
Lethal weapon- I knew you guys would like it.

I'm just defending an art that is getting no respect on this board. It' never been appropriate to dis another art.

I have not said anything disrespectful about another art, nor have I said that one art is better than the other.
im with you chad...people need to start respecting all martial arts and not disrespect them just because they arent taking them...if you ask everyone on this board what is their favorite martial art, theyll most likely say aikido because they are taking that...respect all arts no matter if youre taking them or not...hapkido deserves as much respect as aikido...

Kyri Honigh
07-12-2003, 07:36 PM
Yes all arts are equal, I am with that. It's the practitioner that makes the art get recognition.

jvadakin
07-12-2003, 07:55 PM
Yes all arts are equal, I am with that. It's the practitioner that makes the art get recognition.
That sounds very open-minded and sensitive, but I can't agree. There may not be a best martial art, but that doesn't mean that they are all equal. Imagine a movie star who decides to teach a martial art based on the gymnastics he does in the movies. He only teaches butterfly kicks, windup punches, and various jump kicks. This martial art would suck in terms of practical applicability, which is the jist of this thread -- self-defense. Even a hardworking and athletic student of this art would get himself in trouble in a fight if he tried to use it. This is an extreme example, of course. I think the traditional martial arts wouldn't have survived to be passed on to the 21st century if they all didn't have value. It's difficult to compare different arts. I just think saying they are equal might be as naive (and difficult to substantiate) as claiming that one is definitively superior. In terms of pure self-defense value (and minimal learning time), I'd bet the more brutal martial arts like Kyushinkai would be pretty good.

ewodaj
07-12-2003, 09:44 PM
I dont really believe in brutal arts...I think all martial arts can be brutal depending on how the person uses his martial art skills...a lot of people think of aikido as a spiritual art, but it can also be a very deadly art if someone uses it the wrong way...steven seagal has said this before...

Cyrijl
07-14-2003, 03:48 PM
Chad,

Sorry but you are truly ignorant about BJJ. A good BJJ does teach striking and standup jiujutsu as part of their teaching. At my school we do standup-->clinch-->groudfighting-->standup. So, you don't know what you are talking about. I used to think "I'll just do X,Y,Z," but it does not work like that. There is alot more stress with someone trying to break your arms than with someone trying to punch you. If we are fighting, i don't let your hands do anything, and you can bite all you want. I'll have clothes on.

As far as hapkido, i know nothing about so will keep my mouth shut.

C. Emerson
07-15-2003, 10:56 AM
Joseph, you are another classy individual on this message board, I am impressed with you.

My point is traditional Gracie BJJ, which is the founder of that style of JJ, was not a strongly based striking art. The art has changed for MMA. They had some strikes in there original system although not enough to call it a striking system. Aikido also has striking in its curriculum. Although it will never be classified as a striking art.

If you look at the difference between Japanese JJ and BJJ, The majority of strikes are gone there are no weapons and BJJ ground work in more elaborate.

Are you saying that if one wanted to learn how to strike, Bjj would be a good style to learn?

I know what I'm saying, I'm not sure what you are saying.

C. Emerson
07-15-2003, 11:26 AM
Joseph, thinking about your reply, maybe I do know where your coming from.

I believe your saying that in your school, you learn how to defend as well learn how to strike.

O.k., I'll go with that. I still believe that Carlos and Helio when they developed this art it was based on grappling. And the striking that they used was more for set up then it was for finishing.

I don't think that you will see Helio and Carlos doing punches kicks knees elbows head butts into a heavy bag.

When you look at the best MMArtists out there. You would be hard pressed to find better that Ortiz and Frank Shamrock. There training is very specific, they take the best from alot of styles and use it. They would never stay exclusively with BJJ or Hapkido or whatever. Because there is more deversification needed than those arts can supply. I found Vitor belford to be interesting. What makes him so tough is his striking. Most people can't get past his hands. That was not BJJ. He had specific training with other styles. If you get past the hands than he will use his BJJ and make quick work out of his opponent.

All I'm saying is that what ever style you learn, you need to become well rounded in other arts too, if you want to be effective. I'm sorry for poorly wording that before. I was implying that my art covers all of the bases. I also would train in other arts specifically Ground ars if I knew that I would be spending alot of time down there.

Its funny when you look at the Gracies, They were unstoppable, then they were stoppable, except Rickson. Then they are regrouping to suppliment the art and there training because there is no longer that huge gap in talent anymore.

Where Ortiz and shamrock are right now, is where everyone else needs to be. Excellent with strikes and grappling and proper conditioning and muscle mass.

Chad

ewodaj
07-15-2003, 12:58 PM
Joseph, thinking about your reply, maybe I do know where your coming from.

I believe your saying that in your school, you learn how to defend as well learn how to strike.

O.k., I'll go with that. I still believe that Carlos and Helio when they developed this art it was based on grappling. And the striking that they used was more for set up then it was for finishing.

I don't think that you will see Helio and Carlos doing punches kicks knees elbows head butts into a heavy bag.

When you look at the best MMArtists out there. You would be hard pressed to find better that Ortiz and Frank Shamrock. There training is very specific, they take the best from alot of styles and use it. They would never stay exclusively with BJJ or Hapkido or whatever. Because there is more deversification needed than those arts can supply. I found Vitor belford to be interesting. What makes him so tough is his striking. Most people can't get past his hands. That was not BJJ. He had specific training with other styles. If you get past the hands than he will use his BJJ and make quick work out of his opponent.

All I'm saying is that what ever style you learn, you need to become well rounded in other arts too, if you want to be effective. I'm sorry for poorly wording that before. I was implying that my art covers all of the bases. I also would train in other arts specifically Ground ars if I knew that I would be spending alot of time down there.

Its funny when you look at the Gracies, They were unstoppable, then they were stoppable, except Rickson. Then they are regrouping to suppliment the art and there training because there is no longer that huge gap in talent anymore.

Where Ortiz and shamrock are right now, is where everyone else needs to be. Excellent with strikes and grappling and proper conditioning and muscle mass.

Chad
rickson is the toughest gracie I heard...chad, how would ricksons bjj stand up against an expert in tkd, hapkido, or even aikido? just let me know what you think because your opinion is valued highly just like everyone elses here...;)

bob_stra
07-15-2003, 12:59 PM
Joseph, you are another classy individual on this message board, I am impressed with you.

....

I know what I'm saying, I'm not sure what you are saying.
Well I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but I get the impression that is some kind of snide remark.

Often times, what one person says is interpreted quite differently by another, especially when body language is missing to give context.

So, I accept that I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here, but the "and that's a fact JACK" remark kind coloured my impression of you.

Lest this spiral into another flame war, let me nip this in the bud ;-)

Returning to the original post -

>I fairly easy, Hapkido address's all ranges >of fighting. It is very effective

I have watched and participated in hapkido. My experience has been the following - would you agree?

Primary Focus

Kicking

Punching

(IME, similar to TKD for stance, power generation, striking types etc)

Secondary Focus

Joint locks (some of which are similar to aikido, other not)

Tertiary Focus

Throws (again IME, somewhat closer to JJJ than judo, however you all wanna split hairs over that;-)

Weaponry (I saw cane. Others?)

Missing

Clinching

Takedowns

Ground fighting

In fighting (pummeling range)

Ground striking beyond hit-lock-throw-kick.

Randori / kumite (??at higher levels??)

Contemporary weapons work

Situational awareness

Now, I'm not saying BJJ/MMA contain all these either. Mearly that I disagree with you on these grounds.

>If your style does not prepare you for >striking the clinch and the ground, then >your not prepared. That's the real world. >Hapkido address's those.

This is another of the things I disagreed with. From my (limited) experience, I do not believe hapkido adequately addresses this. Perhaps your school is different. If so, I cannot say whether it is representative of hapkido or not.

Finally -

>I have preached this for years, on most >ground controls in judo or BJJ.

The ground control are designed to immobilize.

> If I can find your eyes or groin or even

> bite you, You will be letting go of me.

No. If you "breach the protocol" like that in BJJ (meaning without prior consent between participants), you would mostly likely be beaten quite badly. Why? Because they have control of you, you've just pissed them off.

A fuller explanation can be seen here -

http://www.shootfightingstockholm.com/articles/articles.asp?ID=1

Having said that, MMA / BJJ actually *allows* for these things, and some folks actually practice with bites and scratches left in. By prior agreement of both parties.

In summary - I have no truck with hapkido. Or with any other martial art for that matter. I not much into the chest thumping, rah rah, "hulk smash" kinda practice. I did disagree with what you posted (albeit in a slightly sarcastic manner, for which I apologize).

Fair enough?

Now, I'd be quite happy to continue with a discussion of the above (de?) merits of what I wrote above, and how it applies to hapkido, aikido and SD.

bob_stra
07-15-2003, 01:32 PM
rickson is the toughest gracie I heard...chad, how would ricksons bjj stand up against an expert in tkd, hapkido, or even aikido? just let me know what you think because your opinion is valued highly just like everyone elses here...;)
Why is this important to you?

Louis, you're new here, but already 6 people have you on their ignore lists. This is gonna sound indelicate (and I mean you no harm by saying this)...but your writing style is kinda rubbing ppl the wrong way.

That's just FYI. You can throw it my face and call me and as*hole if you want ;-)

Now, if ya wanna shit-stir, well, that's cool too. We had a guy on here pretending to be Jason Delucia (btw folks - that was a fakeout according to guys in the know at mma.tv Sucked in all of us IIRC)

Louis, if it's a real question, there is a great deal of footage of the gracies fighting all manner of martial artists, both in and out of the ring, with and without rules. IIRC, there's even footage of the above hapkido vs BJJ. All of it on the net. Hell there's even video of BJJ lossess.

Search via Google or ask for links on rec.martial.arts or www.mma.tv

I get the feeling your interested in aikido, but not sure of whether its the right thing for you. Why not post a little bit more about youreself and your situation so we have something to work with?

Or failing that -

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/newbie-guide/preamble.html

Better still (and more fun to boot)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/newbie-guide/preamble.html

ewodaj
07-15-2003, 01:54 PM
Why is this important to you?

Louis, you're new here, but already 6 people have you on their ignore lists. This is gonna sound indelicate (and I mean you no harm by saying this)...but your writing style is kinda rubbing ppl the wrong way.

That's just FYI. You can throw it my face and call me and as*hole if you want ;-)

Now, if ya wanna shit-stir, well, that's cool too. We had a guy on here pretending to be Jason Delucia (btw folks - that was a fakeout according to guys in the know at mma.tv Sucked in all of us IIRC)

Louis, if it's a real question, there is a great deal of footage of the gracies fighting all manner of martial artists, both in and out of the ring, with and without rules. IIRC, there's even footage of the above hapkido vs BJJ. All of it on the net. Hell there's even video of BJJ lossess.

Search via Google or ask for links on rec.martial.arts or www.mma.tv

I get the feeling your interested in aikido, but not sure of whether its the right thing for you. Why not post a little bit more about youreself and your situation so we have something to work with?

Or failing that -

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/newbie-guide/preamble.html

Better still (and more fun to boot)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/newbie-guide/preamble.html
my opinions and point of views are just what they are...no one should be offended by them...I didnt even know 6 people put me on their ignore list...it just shows how you childish people can get when others express their point of views and opinions about something...people have to learn this is a messageboard and people can say how they feel about something...some people have made smartass comments to me and do you see me putting them on my ignore lists? no, because I realize this is a messageboard and some people are going to have their own opinions and point of views about aikido or whatever else comes to mind...im not trying to rub people the wrong way, but im speaking how I feel...I noticed some people were calling chad ignorant and im sure that is not what he is trying to come across as...you need people to accept peoples opinions and point of views and not act childish and put them on your ignore list...regardless if someone disagrees with me or not, I still respect everyone on here and im sure not going to act like a child and put someone on my ignore list just because one of their posts rubs me the wrong way...nothing rubs me the wrong way on here because people are going to have different opinions and point of views...I am interested in aikido and I signed up for classes...I dont know if ill stay with it because things change over time, im going to try it out for a few weeks and if I feel that I like it, ill be sticking with it...if not, ill look for another martial art that im interested in...right now, the only martial arts that interest me are aikido, hapkido, shotokan karate...unfortunately, there are no hapkido dojos where I live and I havent checked to see if there are any shotokan karate dojos where I live, but there is an aikido dojo where I live and that is the one I signed up for...I was just asking chad a question, is that against the law? :p

bob_stra
07-15-2003, 02:31 PM
Woah, woah....calm down. I didn't put you on any igonore lists. Taint my fault ;-)

I'm jus' saying - responses to your questions are gonna dry up if you keep at it. Which is probably gonna leave a sour taste in your mouth for aikiweb and aikido in general. And that'd be a loss.

There's no crime in asking questions. Please appreciate we get a lot of trolls thru here and I think some folks are lumping you in that catagory.

Replying in specific: -

>people have to learn this is a messageboard >and people can say how they feel about >something

No disagreement here.

>I am interested in aikido and I signed up >for classes...I dont know if ill stay with >it because things change over time

Yeah. Anything in particualar though? Or just not enyoing the aikido there?

>im going to try it out for a few weeks and >if I feel that I like it, ill be sticking >with it

Cool.

>if not, ill look for another martial art >that im interested in...right now, the only >martial arts that interest me are aikido, >hapkido, shotokan karate

Often times (and oddly, mostly with hapkido and karate, esp in my area) the folks don't advertise much. Have you tried university sports clubs, YMCA's etc? Some place are so well hidden it kinda requires you to know a guy who knows a guy. Eg: The place I train at is at the back of a chinese store, in a garage, underground. Good luck finding us in the yellow pages ;-)

> unfortunately, there are no hapkido dojos

If we knew a little of why you were interested in aikido / hapkido, we might be able to recommend a substitute. For example, for mostly striking with some joint locks -

TKD? Tang Soo Doo (sp)? Goju Remnei(karate)? Some styles of JJJ? Kajukenbo? Different types of kung fu?

>there are any shotokan karate dojos where I

FYI Shotokan karate is a fairly "linear" style. (I practiced that for 3yrs). Can't see how it links to hapkido or aikido. Have you then also looked into kickboxing and muay thai (not the same art)

>just asking chad a question, is that against >the law

Yeah. There's a $50 infringement fee coming your way ;-) Ha!

Seriously though, feel free to check to vids out and make your own mind up. Here's one of BJJ Vs Shotokan. Make of it what you will.

http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=64

http://www.mcdojo.com/dl.asp

PS: The mcMatrix clip has footage of segal doing *actual* aikido, but is abt 23MB.

opherdonchin
07-15-2003, 03:38 PM
There is also a lot of Aikido footage in the 'kung fu fighting' clip. Even some footage of Ueshiba. I guess they don't think very highly of Aikido over there.

:)

ewodaj
07-15-2003, 03:54 PM
bob, what are you trying to figure out my life? who cares if shotokan karate doesnt link to aikido and hapkido...im interested in it and that is all that matters...stop trying to analize me...what is a troll? you dont have to know why im interested in aikido/hapkido because that is self-explanatory as I mentioned a few times before...to get in shape and learn self-defense...the only korean martial art im interested in is hapkido and thats that...tkd and tsd dont interest me...for some reason, tkd is way overrated and its a sport to me...I dont feel competition in martial arts is right because you learn martial arts to defend yourself as well as other reasons and I feel that competing against others for sport means nothing and it shows no real measure of how good of a martial artist you are because youre just trying to show off and you may be nervous...in a real life situation it is much different and that is where your martial art skills really count for something...

Dave Miller
07-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Louis,

You came to this forum under the guise of asking questions and seeking information about budo in general, aikido in particular. And yet you have consistantly insisted on bucking against the advice offered and insist on sharing your own opinions instead. It is quite easy to see why folks don't want to answer your questions: you don't seem to want to hear their answers, but rather, you continue to try and impress us with what you know (or think you know).

If you want to study Aikido then do it and then tell us what you are learning. So far, all you have done is talked and talked and talked. Well, talking about Aikido is easy and safe. You don't have to ever see where you might be wrong. Actually studying Aikido is hard and very risky. You might actually find out that you don't realy know what you're talking about.

ewodaj
07-15-2003, 05:49 PM
Louis,

You came to this forum under the guise of asking questions and seeking information about budo in general, aikido in particular. And yet you have consistantly insisted on bucking against the advice offered and insist on sharing your own opinions instead. It is quite easy to see why folks don't want to answer your questions: you don't seem to want to hear their answers, but rather, you continue to try and impress us with what you know (or think you know).

If you want to study Aikido then do it and then tell us what you are learning. So far, all you have done is talked and talked and talked. Well, talking about Aikido is easy and safe. You don't have to ever see where you might be wrong. Actually studying Aikido is hard and very risky. You might actually find out that you don't realy know what you're talking about.
youre totally wrong and you have no clue...just because people give me advice does that mean I have to take it? I respect and accept everyones advice here...I dont mind at all hearing peoples answers, so dont take words out of my mouth because you have the wrong idea about me...I stated before im not trying to impress anyone here about what I know...if you pay attention to what I say (I dont really care if you do), you would have known that dave...if you have conflict with me or the things that I say on here be a man about it and pm me about it...im not trying to disrespect anyone here and make them think I know about aikido and they dont and that is what youre making it out to be...I never asked if aikido was safe, so there you go again making your own assumptions up about me saying I said this I said that...aikido is hard and risky I know that, but do not question me anymore because its getting you no where...;)

bob_stra
07-15-2003, 07:14 PM
There is also a lot of Aikido footage in the 'kung fu fighting' clip. Even some footage of Ueshiba. I guess they don't think very highly of Aikido over there.

:)
Well, some of the folks are kinda stupid there too ;-) Though the "Aikido Mortal Combat" clip is kinda amusing ;-)

bob_stra
07-15-2003, 07:20 PM
>Louis Amberg (ewodaj)"]bob, what are you

> trying to figure out my life?

Don't flatter yourself ;-)

>who cares if shotokan karate doesnt link to >aikido and hapkido...

Not me man. Go nuts. You're the one going on about the beauty and fluidity of aikido.

>im interested in it and that is all that >matters...stop trying to analize me

Don't worry, you ain't my type.

LOL analize ;-) Good one.

Have fun ;-)

sanosuke
07-15-2003, 08:06 PM
Oooh, I do feel a tense atmosphere here. Come on guys, stop looking for differences because it'll make you away from each other. Look for similarities so that you can train together and exchange knowledge.

Lee Swerdloff
07-15-2003, 08:29 PM
hi

Lee Swerdloff
07-15-2003, 08:42 PM
Louis, Aikido is not about fighting. It is about purifying the mind and body - misogi.

Yes you do learn to defend yourself. It is a very effective martial art. Is it the best? Who knows. Why do you care? You're not going to fight the Gracie brothers are you?

Will you dervive fitness and flexibility from it, absolutly. And you'll probably stick with it much longer. Aikido is the only fitness activity I know that makes you smile. Alot. You also feel closer to your fellow humans afterwards. I don't know why this is so.

I could never stick with other fitness routines as they are so mind numbingly dull. Aikido is a very deep well. Dive in.

"Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

M.Ueshiba

ewodaj
07-15-2003, 09:31 PM
Louis, Aikido is not about fighting. It is about purifying the mind and body - misogi.

Yes you do learn to defend yourself. It is a very effective martial art. Is it the best? Who knows. Why do you care? You're not going to fight the Gracie brothers are you?

Will you dervive fitness and flexibility from it, absolutly. And you'll probably stick with it much longer. Aikido is the only fitness activity I know that makes you smile. Alot. You also feel closer to your fellow humans afterwards. I don't know why this is so.

I could never stick with other fitness routines as they are so mind numbingly dull. Aikido is a very deep well. Dive in.

"Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

M.Ueshiba
lee, I really dont want to use the word "fighting"...I see it more as self-defense if anything...no martial art is the best because you always have everyone saying the martial art they practice is the best...

C. Emerson
07-16-2003, 01:21 AM
Dear Jack,

It sounds to me your information has been influenced from a TKD instructor.

Primary focus is on our philosophy, Water, power and circular movement.

There is an equal amount of focus on circular movement/jointlocking and striking. It has to be equal, that is Hapkido, Jack! Ah did ya like that one. ;)

This is not a style for MMA. Other than a hybrid BJJ, or what ever style is being formed be all of the participants in these events. There is no single style that contains all of these elements.

Once again Jack, I'll explain. Hapkido is not the best martial art out there. Jack did you hear this? ;(

It is a martial art that address's the 3 major different areas of fighting. Ala karate Aikido judo. Similar to Japanese JJ

And weapons, Cane, sword, knife, staff, rope, short stick, common objects as weapons, defense against weapons.

Do some research on Dan Inosanto and his first group meeting with the gracies. When you do, you will find out that, Inosanto would pinch Gracie in the jewels ever time he would get mounted or an attempt. It completly changed the way Gracie was approaching his techniques. Hence Gracie did not try to mount him.

Have you ever trainied like this? I have, and it is a humbling experience for all involved. Just wondering, have you ever trained in the martial arts. Some times I'm not sure. You talk like your all of that, but ya get into conversations that ya don't know too much about. And you brow beat me, boo hoo. I actually feel like I'm younger when I'm around you, with all of the down talking. But I have to say, It's nice feeling younger once in a while, Thank you for the brow beating.

Since you have been putting your foot in your mouth soooo often, it has really coloured my impression of you.

Being an Aussie an all, can ya crush a Foster's on your head.

Fair enough?

Now, I'd be quite happy to continue with a discussion of the above (de?) merits of what I wrote above, and how it applies to hapkido, aikido and SD.

-Chad

bob_stra
07-16-2003, 04:12 AM
Dear Jack,

Chad
I love you Chad ;-) You da man!

bob_stra
07-16-2003, 05:01 AM
Oooh, I do feel a tense atmosphere here. Come on guys, stop looking for differences because it'll make you away from each other. Look for similarities so that you can train together and exchange knowledge.
You want we should link hands and sing Kumbaya my lord? ;-) ;-)

Relax Reza, were all just having a little fun here. No malice from anyone as far as I can see. Besides, kinda silly getting up tight over squigly lines on a screen, innit?

Love

Jack

(ps: I've *gotta* change my login to that! Full points to Chad. I'm thinking of referring to him as Mr Troglodyte from now on, on account of him thinkin' I'm brow beating him. Troglodytes had big brows, ya see. Course, that's kinda immature - I suspect all those Foster's cans have crushed my pea brain ;-)

Ok, I'll behave now.

;-P

Cyrijl
07-16-2003, 08:47 AM
Chad,

Sorry it has taken me a couple of days.

BJJ instruction books teach striking. It is not primary, but it is present. What most people are familiar with is the sport aspect of the system. YOu don't need MMA to train in punching in BJJ.

Another reason why i don't think aikido is good for a self-defense system (don't think BJJ is all that great either for this)...is the tendency to use two hands on one of your opponent's hand.

Dave Miller
07-16-2003, 10:05 AM
youre totally wrong and you have no clue...just because people give me advice does that mean I have to take it? I respect and accept everyones advice here...Somehow, telling someone they "have no clue" doesn't seem to fit with respecting them. Also, you say that you don't have to take anyone's advice and then say that you accept everyone's advice. So which is it?
I stated before im not trying to impress anyone here about what I know...if you pay attention to what I say (I dont really care if you do), you would have known that dave...And yet I have been paying attention and reading your posts and they contain you time and time again claiming to know this and that about Aikido when you have never practiced the art.
if you have conflict with me or the things that I say on here be a man about it and pm me about it...I wasn't aware that pm'ing was a sign of masculinity. Have you received many pm's like that?
I never asked if aikido was safe, so there you go again making your own assumptions up about me saying I said this I said that...aikido is hard and risky I know that, but do not question me anymore because its getting you no where...;)Contrary to your assumption, I wasn't talking at all about physical risk at all, nor was I referencing anything you said. I was talking about the risk of being shown that you really don't know anything, which is what all of us are confronted with when we start to train in Aikido. I have seen many students who were severely limited in their training simply because their attitude didn't allow them to admit that they didn't know something. Folks like that are often very unteachable. I'm sure others on the board who have practiced Aiki for very long have seen the same thing.

You can keep saying all you want that you're not trying to impress us with what you think you know but you keep adding post after post of, "I know this" and "I know that".

As Socrates said, "The beginning of wisdom is realizing that you know nothing." That's also the point at which a person is able to learn. You can never learn untill you are able to become comfortable with the idea of not knowing.

C. Emerson
07-16-2003, 10:44 AM
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.

Hey you, over there, don't be a bogart, Pass it.

LOL :)

ewodaj
07-16-2003, 12:56 PM
Somehow, telling someone they "have no clue" doesn't seem to fit with respecting them. Also, you say that you don't have to take anyone's advice and then say that you accept everyone's advice. So which is it?

And yet I have been paying attention and reading your posts and they contain you time and time again claiming to know this and that about Aikido when you have never practiced the art.

I wasn't aware that pm'ing was a sign of masculinity. Have you received many pm's like that?

Contrary to your assumption, I wasn't talking at all about physical risk at all, nor was I referencing anything you said. I was talking about the risk of being shown that you really don't know anything, which is what all of us are confronted with when we start to train in Aikido. I have seen many students who were severely limited in their training simply because their attitude didn't allow them to admit that they didn't know something. Folks like that are often very unteachable. I'm sure others on the board who have practiced Aiki for very long have seen the same thing.

You can keep saying all you want that you're not trying to impress us with what you think you know but you keep adding post after post of, "I know this" and "I know that".

As Socrates said, "The beginning of wisdom is realizing that you know nothing." That's also the point at which a person is able to learn. You can never learn untill you are able to become comfortable with the idea of not knowing.
tell someone who cares davie boy...;) :p :o :D

opherdonchin
07-16-2003, 02:11 PM
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya. Oh Lord, Kumbaya.

bob_stra
07-16-2003, 04:58 PM
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya.
You know, for some reason, no one ever seems to know the words beyond "Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya". Same deal with Hava Naguila and that russian drinking ditty (sp? ka-ljinka)

Course, with all the Fosters, maybe its just me.

Love

Jack

PS: Hardly anyone drinks Fosters over here. I think they're concentrating on the overseas market. Just as well, their beer tastes horrible.

C. Emerson
07-17-2003, 01:14 AM
Everyone, please a round of applause, two men have settled an issue over a Fosters.

Ya know, I'll bet they would have in a commercial. Get me in a headlock and crush one on my head.

-Chad

opherdonchin
07-17-2003, 12:38 PM
Kumbaya (http://www.inlyrics.com/display/Seekers_Lyrics/Kumbaya_Lyrics/83284.htm)

Hava Nagile (http://www.even-deeper.com/benfoldsfive/havanagila.html)

I don't know the Russian ditty.

bob_stra
07-17-2003, 04:48 PM
Ya know, I'll bet they would have in a commercial. Get me in a headlock and crush one on my head.

-Chad
Crocodile Dundee has a lot to answer for.

PS: I'd headlock ya, but I'm afraid you might bite (hah! Continuity - Jack 1 : Chad 0)

I'm suprised - I could sworn this thread woulda turned all flamey by now. Must be the beer dulling my wits.

Hurt my brain beer? Naah...

deepsoup
07-17-2003, 05:48 PM
Crocodile Dundee has a lot to answer for.
Funnily enough, it was Foster's commercials that introduced Paul Hogan to the UK (way before Crocodile Dundee). They've always been pretty funny.

The Foster's feng shui guy is a hoot.

Sean

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