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C. Emerson
07-06-2003, 10:05 AM
Kyri Honigh stated in a reply that Jujutsu came from Sumo.
I've never heard of that, can anyone shed some light on this.
-Chad
evileyes

George S. Ledyard
07-06-2003, 10:16 AM
Kyri Honigh stated in a reply that Jujutsu came from Sumo.

I've never heard of that, can anyone shed some light on this.

-Chad

evileyes
It makes sense when you consider it. Most traditional cultures have forms of ritualized fighting, oft times having religious significance. Sumo, or at least it's antecedents is very old as I understand it.

I believe that these very old forms of ritualized combat would normally precede formalized fighting syles in their development. If I am not mistaken there are references in the Japanese classics referring to deities who did Sumo.

On the other hand, one can assume that men have been fighting hand to hand since men evolved. So it's possible that the earliest forms of jujutsu developed in parallel to Sumo and Sumo isn't a direct ancestor.

mikeyuke
07-06-2003, 08:06 PM
Ok

here goes..

Jujutsu from Sumo

Aikido from Daito

they all have pony tails,

we are onto something.

hahaha

just a thought.

PeterR
07-06-2003, 09:44 PM
George;

On the e-budo forum there is a thread originally on the Oldest Extinct Koryu. In it Karl Friday makes the statement that the oldest that could be called a school was teaching archery not for combat but for ceremonial purposes at court. However, as you imply, the question is pretty much and chicken and egg with parallel developement probably much closer to the truth than a linear progression.

I can easily see local wrestling matches being taken up and formalized in court for various rites including that for fertility and succession. The latter was the cause of the oldest reference to Sumo if I'm not mistaken.

I can also see wrestling (which basically is what Sumo is) being encouraged to develope strong youths and therefore practiced from as far back as there was a need of soldiers. The type of training a soldier required was introduced when these youths became or approached a certain age and probably didn't involve a lot of wrestling.

Now here we get into contention. Sumo as a spectator sport only became popular in the early 1600s basically after the Tokugawa's came to power. Presently the number of techniques in Sumo is quite extensive but there is no evidence that what was mentioned in the distant past was anywhere near as sophisticated. I would say that modern Sumo has more to do with the forms of 16th century jujutsu than the latter has to do with ancient Sumo.


It makes sense when you consider it. Most traditional cultures have forms of ritualized fighting, oft times having religious significance. Sumo, or at least it's antecedents is very old as I understand it.

I believe that these very old forms of ritualized combat would normally precede formalized fighting syles in their development. If I am not mistaken there are references in the Japanese classics referring to deities who did Sumo.

On the other hand, one can assume that men have been fighting hand to hand since men evolved. So it's possible that the earliest forms of jujutsu developed in parallel to Sumo and Sumo isn't a direct ancestor.

Largo
07-06-2003, 10:00 PM
I had always heard it backwards- sumo came from jujitsu. Then again, there are many styles of jujitsu, so it could be either way (or both). Anyone know if there are different "styles" of sumo? or do they all do the same thing?

C. Emerson
07-06-2003, 10:04 PM
Me too, I thought that Jujutsu was the grandaddy.

-Chad

PeterR
07-06-2003, 10:22 PM
Me too, I thought that Jujutsu was the grandaddy.

-Chad
Sumo is mention way back - long long before there was a mention of jujutsu. I think the first mention of Sumo was in the Nihon Shoki written about 720 which describes a bout held about 750 years previously. The Kojiki written a few years earlier mentions a couple of gods wrestling to determine who would own Japan.

Jujutsu is of course just one of many terms used to describe unarmed or lightly armed combat. I have no idea when the term Jujutsu was first used but I suspect it was quite recent.

Chris Li
07-06-2003, 11:21 PM
Sumo is mention way back - long long before there was a mention of jujutsu. I think the first mention of Sumo was in the Nihon Shoki written about 720 which describes a bout held about 750 years previously. The Kojiki written a few years earlier mentions a couple of gods wrestling to determine who would own Japan.

Jujutsu is of course just one of many terms used to describe unarmed or lightly armed combat. I have no idea when the term Jujutsu was first used but I suspect it was quite recent.
That pretty much covers it, as I understand these things.

Best,

Chris

C. Emerson
07-08-2003, 09:55 AM
Where does Kung fu fit into the history of martial arts. With Sumo

Kensai
07-08-2003, 10:50 AM
I think you'll find that Amoeba-Do was the first art. Practiced for many millium by the Amoeba of the Sol system, later it involved from just moving around like a goo-ey thing to striking with its cell like arms. However the Amoeba of Tango-urila developed a far superior system involved on the mean streets of Amoeba city, it includes a series of fungel take downs and cellular joint locks....

The rest as we say, is history.

C. Emerson
07-08-2003, 10:14 PM
Ahhhhhhhhhh, o.k.?

PeterR
07-08-2003, 10:28 PM
fungel take downs
I love this. :D

Adrian Smith
07-09-2003, 03:45 PM
From The Big Book of Sumo:

"Legend aside, the sport of sumo dates back some fifteen hundred years. Its origins were religious, based on Shinto rituals. Matches were held at Shinto shrines and dedicated to the gods in hopes of good harvests. The bouts took place along with music, poetry reading, sacred dancing, and drama.

Early sumo was a combination of wrestling, boxing, and judo. Matches were quite violent and has few rules. During the Kamakura period (1185-1334), a military dictatorship or shogunate was established and bloody wars were fought throughout Japan. It was at this time that sumo was implemented as part of the military's training program. Many of the wrestling techniques practised were used to force an enemy down to the ground where he could easily be apprehended. Jujitsu developed from this." <emphasis mine>

-Adrian

hoi
07-09-2003, 04:36 PM
"Early sumo was a combination of wrestling, boxing, and judo?" And from Sumo you get Jujitsu ...

I thought Judo came from Jujitsu.

Adrian Smith
07-09-2003, 05:51 PM
"Early sumo was a combination of wrestling, boxing, and judo?" And from Sumo you get Jujitsu ...

I thought Judo came from Jujitsu.
I don't know Hoi. That was the quote from The Big Book of Sumo.

Anyone know anything further about this?

-Adrian

Bronson
07-09-2003, 08:41 PM
Early sumo was a combination of wrestling, boxing, and judo.

I wonder if they should have said something like: Early sumo was a combination of techniques similar to those found in the modern disciplines of wrestling, boxing, and judo.

Bronson