Sword training

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[Eric Joyce]

Question for the group...

Do you think doing swordwork should be done first before learning the empty handed techniques in aikido? Any thoughts?

[Steven]

Hi Eric,

Nice logo!

As a company man, I would say sword work is not necessary because our kihon dosa, when practiced correctly and dailey, serves the same purpose. (you should be doing kihon as you read this ... chop chop ... get to it)

On the other side, I have students give us an honest try and say that the structure is too much and they would prefer a not so regimented way of learning. So I point them in the direction of other schools.

Then again, I've seen some schools that teach basics with the sword and look awesome, yet others who have no idea what the sword is for.

I don't think think the sword work is necessary before the open hand, but that's just me.

[Chris Li]

Hi Eric,

Nice logo!

As a company man, I would say sword work is not necessary because our kihon dosa, when practiced correctly and dailey, serves the same purpose. (you should be doing kihon as you read this ... chop chop ... get to it)
Interestingly, Shioda didn't do so well on the sword section of his 9th dan test with M. Ueshiba, but he did so well on the empty-hand section that he got the 9th dan anyway - on the condition that he'd work on his sword more :).
I don't think think the sword work is necessary before the open hand, but that's just me.
I've seen pretty good results both ways, different people learn in different ways. What it comes down to, I think, is that you have to do everything eventually, but the optimum order of the curriculum varies from one person to the next.

Best,

Chris

[Steven]

"I've seen pretty good results both ways, different people learn in different ways."

Agreed!

[PeterR]

Interestingly, Shioda didn't do so well on the sword section of his 9th dan test with M. Ueshiba, but he did so well on the empty-hand section that he got the 9th dan anyway - on the condition that he'd work on his sword more :).
There was a ninth dan test?

Was this common, in relation to the number of 9th Dans of course.

[Chris Li]

There was a ninth dan test?

Was this common, in relation to the number of 9th Dans of course.
It was in "Aikido Shugyo", and appears to have been quite simple. Roughly, it goes like this (off the top of my head, so I may be misremembering some minor points):

The first part of the test was sword. They both (Ueshiba and Shioda) picked up bokuto and Ueshiba said "OK, come get me". Unfortunately, whatever Shioda tried, he was unable to find an opening, so they give up after a while. The empty hand part seems to have been along the same lines, but Shioda found an opening that time. However, just as he started to move into it Ueshiba stopped the test (the assumption being that finding the opportunity was enough).

Ueshiba's comments were that his sword work wasn't really up to snuff yet, but that his empty hand was really something, so he would give him the 9th dan if he'd promise to work more on his sword work.

Haven't heard about any other 9th dan tests (anybody else?) - this one took place in Iwama after the war.

Best,

Chris

[shadow]

we do sword and jo as a complement to our open hand. one hour weapons, one hour taijitsu for every training day.

bokken training gives you a strong connected grip and also teaches you many fundamentals in the way the hip moves and the body moves. seeing as pretty much all of the techniques came from weapons techniques or weapons taking techniques i would consider studying aikido without the aiki-weapons aspect only studying one half of the art. sure you can reach an incredible level but your understanding will always be limited to some degree.

[JJF]

I don't know about all the different styles of aikido, but according to Nishio sensei, aikido (the way he does it) requires that you learn the way of the sword. I believe that the way we do it, where it's an integrated part of training with both aiki-toho (iaido) practice and paired practice (ken-tai-ken, ken-tai-jo) is a good way to develop your aikido along side developing your weapons skills.

To answer the question: I Don't think learning the sword-way first is better than doing both at the same time. In the end it's a matter of time spend and your learning capability. As someone said above - you have to get around to every part of the curriculum eventually.

[Eric Joyce]

Hey Steve,

I am on the kihon dosa my man. Talked to Mike and I am meeting him Saturday. Thanks, I like the logo too ;) As for the sword training, I have incorporated it into my kihon dosa renzoku and I have noticed a difference in my technique (especially when doing shiho nage) but thats just me. I do both empty hand and bokken so that I get a good feel for both. Thanks for the responses.

[Steven]

Hi Eric,

I suddenly have this image of you and Mike pounding the heck out of each other at his dojo. DANG I wish I could be there to join in the fun.

As for the bokken work. I think most the bokken work you see in Yoshinkan here in the US came from Kushida Sensei. I too work with bokken while doing kihon dosa renzoku.