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taras
06-22-2003, 05:16 AM
Once you've finished a technique and your uke is on the floor, you get up - which direction do you go to? In front of uke or behind him?

I always thought that the safest thing was walking away behind, that way he has to get up and find me before his next attack while I can see him all the time. Yesterday I was told that the preferred way is to walk in front of your uke as "this is safer for the uke".

A person who visits our dojo very rarely said this and I didn't have a chance to ask him about this. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Greg Jennings
06-22-2003, 08:04 AM
I go away to the quarter of the pinned limb, whichever it might be.

Our dojo has become quite formal about it. It's just something that we just morphed into over time as a way of training for zanshin.

Regards,

taras
06-22-2003, 10:46 AM
I go away to the quarter of the pinned limb, whichever it might be.
do you mean walk away in the direction in which the limb is pointing, so to speak?

Greg Jennings
06-22-2003, 11:12 AM
E.g., if I have the right arm pinned, I will exit in the pie-shaped area that the right arm would normally be able to reach.

Similarly, if I have their left leg pinned, I exit into the space that the left leg would normally occupy.

Regards,

Dave Miller
06-22-2003, 12:11 PM
That's what I do as well. You need to have the mindset that uke will still attack you if he/she can. With that understanding, you need to exit the technique in the direction that makes it hardest for uke to reach you. When I uke, I will often make little grabs and attacks at nage if they leave themselves open to help make this point for them.

The main issue is simply not walking into a position where uke can attack you again at will. Your sempei or sensei can help you with this. In some cases, proper exiting is an integral part of properly executing a kata or technique.

taras
06-23-2003, 03:32 AM
You need to have the mindset that uke will still attack you if he/she can.
that is why I thought exiting behind uke is the safest because he can't see me there.

PeterR
06-23-2003, 03:55 AM
If uke can still attack why would you possibly want to let go.

If the answer is to deal with the multiple attackers the question immediately becomes why would you want to put the pin on in the first place.

An effective pin ties the doer up nearly as much as the doee.

That said. I remove myself from a pin in such a way as to maintain said pin, or at least some part of it, as long as possible. Therefore the direction depends very much on which pin you are talking about.

taras
06-23-2003, 08:41 AM
If uke can still attack why would you possibly want to let go
in a real life situation this would be different. If there were more than one attacker I don't think I would use a pin in the first place.

In randori I would not be doing propper finishes for pins.

In the situation I was talking about there was only one uke, and it was in a dojo. I was doing an ikkyo, my uke tapped and I brought his hand over and placed it between his shoulderbaldes, one of my knees preventing him from instantly attacking me as I disengaged. Then I got up and started walking away behind him (5 o'clock, if I can put it that way. At this point the above mentioned nidan told me it was wrong andf that uke should be able to see you and defend himself.

Dave Miller
06-23-2003, 08:41 AM
An effective pin ties the doer up nearly as much as the doee.

That said. I remove myself from a pin in such a way as to maintain said pin, or at least some part of it, as long as possible. Therefore the direction depends very much on which pin you are talking about.Exactly. A good example of this would be a pin with a coil-arm bar such as one might do for shiho-nage (tenkai kote gaeshi). By applying slight pressure to the elbow while getting up, nage is able to keep uke in an uncomfortable position long enough to safely exit the technique.

As far as uke still being able to attack, that is more of a theoretical idea, at least in the dojo. Were I on the street holding down a mugger, I wouldn't let them up untill the police arrived. In the dojo, the notion is simply to stay out of uke's strike zone while exiting.

TheFallGuy
06-23-2003, 05:56 PM
After we pin uke, we place the 'pinned arm' on the back and then ushiro shikko away from the head, keeping away from the feet. All the while we face uke in case he tries to attack you in the process of getting away. This solves the problem of the uke being able to see you.

I thought that you want to minimize conflict (hence having uke turn his head away while you pin). And if you are always facing him that may raise the conflict a little. But after getting pinned you should be talking to him/her 'Why do you want to attack me?' And if you go away from the head and still maintain your mai and zanshin, I think it will let uke know that you can and will do it again. (Bring it on!!!)

Bronson
06-23-2003, 11:22 PM
Then I got up and started walking away behind him (5 o'clock, if I can put it that way.

I will sometimes kick at or try to trip nage if he exits near my feet (unless it's a leg pin). We normally exit off at an angle much like what Greg said.

I thought that you want to minimize conflict (hence having uke turn his head away while you pin).

That's not why I turn my head away. I do it because it hurts less :D

Bronson

erikmenzel
06-24-2003, 04:52 AM
I go to the safest place (hopefully), which depends largely on the knot I put uke in.

Bussho
06-24-2003, 06:34 AM
Once you've finished a technique and your uke is on the floor, you get up - which direction do you go to? In front of uke or behind him?

I always thought that the safest thing was walking away behind, that way he has to get up and find me before his next attack while I can see him all the time. Yesterday I was told that the preferred way is to walk in front of your uke as "this is safer for the uke".

A person who visits our dojo very rarely said this and I didn't have a chance to ask him about this. Any thoughts are appreciated.
If it was an ikkyo, I would rotate outward, while doing a yonkyo on the wrist. Holding contact all the way. Then stand up.

Iwould not go backwards, since it dosn't give me the leaverage needed if he throws himself backwards.

But I might be wrong ;-)

/Terje

The Wrenster
06-24-2003, 04:31 PM
hmm... imagine that you have your partner pinned, face down, left arm outstretched, and you have a wrist lock on, elbow up and their wrist twisting anticlockwise towards their head ( i hope that makes sense) I found that if you move towards their feet, sure, they cannot see you, but the lock weakens and they can kick out at you and do nasty things. If you exit to their head, you maintain the lock andstay well clear of and flying appendages. My release point is around the 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock position. They are still face down, cannot rise, and are under youre control.. You can back away a safe distance and release.

This applies to all the locks and pins. I move to the area which would make 1. the lock nastier, 2. the area where they have least control >> where their limbs are not!!

Cheers