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villrg0a
06-18-2003, 05:28 AM
hello all..
Last night at our gym we were practicing randori (multiple). It was just supposed to be a throwing (no locking) randori. Everthing was just going fine when one of the uke's tried to resist one throwing technique after another. I tried to increase my power, but he will also increase his, we looked like we were in a grappling/wrestlin match. The harmonous flow sort of left the mat.
Can anybody please tell me what I should do if in another randori session this fellow student resist again?

erikmenzel
06-18-2003, 05:50 AM
kick him

happysod
06-18-2003, 05:57 AM
If the problem is the uke is not committing their self, instead opting to attack with a view to being stubborn, I suggest you ignore the throw and just divert, using the other more biddable ukes as human shields if necessary.

My problems with randori (or anything else) always occur when I get focussed too much on a particular technique (throw or lock) so I incorrectly anticipate and try and impose my aikido rather than blending with what Iím actually given. It's just randori gives us so many more options to tense up, get aggressive or lose sight of aikido altogether.

Erik, you're showing the famous dutch pragmatism again.. :)

paw
06-18-2003, 07:03 AM
Can anybody please tell me what I should do if in another randori session this fellow student resist again?

You have an instructor, correct? Ask them.

If you are the instructor, talk to the student.

Regards,

Paul

Thor's Hammer
06-18-2003, 09:51 AM
Yonkyo time!

Dave Miller
06-18-2003, 09:55 AM
Everthing was just going fine when one of the uke's tried to resist one throwing technique after another.If an uke is doing that to me in randori, I just ask them what they are trying to accomplish. It sounds like they are simply not committing to the attack. In some cases, the best defense is to simply tenkan and move on as they probably presented no real threat. Some guys think that it's cool or cute to try to thwart every technique, not realizing that they're helping no one, including themselves.

I also gotta agree with paw's advice about taking this up privately with your sensei or sempei. There're ultimately the ones to deal with this.

George S. Ledyard
06-18-2003, 11:39 AM
hello all..

Last night at our gym we were practicing randori (multiple). It was just supposed to be a throwing (no locking) randori. Everthing was just going fine when one of the uke's tried to resist one throwing technique after another. I tried to increase my power, but he will also increase his, we looked like we were in a grappling/wrestlin match. The harmonous flow sort of left the mat.

Can anybody please tell me what I should do if in another randori session this fellow student resist again?
This is the result of a misunderstanding about randori is.The instructor should step in and explain the proper role of the uke in this type of practice. Saotome Sensei always said that "If your partner knows that you will not hit him, then all technqiues are stoppable." It is the possibility of atemi that forces an uke to keep his energy dispersed, covering his openings (suki). When he knows you won't strike them he can focus his energy on defeating whatever technqiue you are trying to do.

In a practice session like that, it might not be appropriate in your dojo to nail this fellow (where I trained it would have been ok). So you have to rely on your teacher to set things straight. If he doesn't do that there isn't much you can do about this kind of uke and good randori will not be possible.

Mark Jakabcsin
06-19-2003, 07:54 AM
The following may be a bit uncomfortable but generally worth thinking about.

Did the uke really resist or was the attempted throw just not done correctly? Just because the other ukes fell doesn't mean this uke resisted, perhaps he simply responded realistically to your attempted technique. A complete review (in your mind) of the event starting just prior to uke's attack is in order. Look for any tiny portion of your movment or timing that could have been better or any part of his movement that you misjudged. This CAN be a great learning experience.

Secondly, if/when uke resists one technique he is leaving himself open to others. The instant tori feels tension build in uke's body he needs to adjust out of the orginal technique and into something else. If he resists backwards apply a technique that uses backward posture, if he resists forward use a technique that uses forward posture, etc. Note tori's transistion will need to be light and smooth to work, any jerky or strong motion will tell uke something is up and they will change their resistance accordingly.

Personally I have had the most success with adjusting in such a manner when I am not limited or bound to aikido technique but can create motions on the spot to fit the situation. These spontaneous situational techniques are rarely pretty, generally simple but work rather well. With your light relaxed touch feel uke's tension, feel his balance and posture and simply apply a circle line around the tension towards his favored balance line. He'll drop, when done correctly.

The points to this post are A) look at a resisting uke as an opportunity to really challenge yourself, placing blame is a waste of time b) look at a resisting uke as an opportunity to practice changing and matching technique to their body posture/attack/defense and c) don't limit yourself to standard recognized technique, feel uke and respond naturally.

mark

ps. You mentioned that this was a multiple attacker drill. What were the other uke's doing when you got tied up with this one attacker? In the school I train at tori does everything possible to not get tied up, because when he does it is only a second or two before the other attackers are on him. Generally results in a pile with tori on the bottom.

John Boswell
06-19-2003, 10:30 AM
I HAVE A QUESTION !!

It wsa always my understanding that Randori was "controling chaos" and that technique wasn't the priority as much as keeping multiple attackers OFF of you and staying ready was the main objective.

So... while the author of this thread is worrying about his technique and some uke resisting it, why is he not just using Tenkan to let the uke pass? or perhaps atemi to the face so the uke is compeled to stop/fall back?

What I know of randori is if you take too much time on technique, you spend all your time on it and the next thing your know... they are on you. When multiple attackers are coming, why worry about form when you gotta get the hell outta the way??

I'm asking all this with honest sincerity and not judgement. Just trying to see what viewpoints people look at Randori from.

Thanks.

ikkainogakusei
06-19-2003, 11:41 AM
IMHO

The answer depends on your level, the dojo culture, and the spirit of your uke's intent.

As others have mentioned, the smartest thing to do is speak with your sensei, or possibly the dojo sempai. They will have the best answer, and impart what is acceptable for the dojo culture.

As for the spirit of your uke's intent; he might be attempting to challenge you to improvise, or deal with it as a henka-waza. He might just be a punk who's not interested in your improvement in skill or learning. If the former, try to think of the variety of things that aren't normally in your randori-personality (many people have a personality which relies on iriminage, or kotegaishi, etc). If the latter, the right thing to do again is to dicsuss with sempai/sensei. Though it would be fun to respond in a manner as suggested by Erik. I've always thought pepper spray would be an funny henka.

:ai: :) :triangle: :ai:

PeterR
06-19-2003, 07:43 PM
From the Shodokan Honbu FAQ section

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/faq.html

Isn't it true that randori is mainly for young people? Can beginners and older members also do randori?

The randori practice system was originally called 'midare geiko' (disordered practice). It has never been easy but it is not something that has to be practised.

Those people who do not want to take part in matches can still reflect on the techniques they learn in kata by taking part in randori practice. In addition, there are three levels of randori practice to choose from according to age, sex and physical condition.

1. Kakari geiko

Techniques as practised in kata are used but with no pre-arranged order. Tori applies techniques against uke's correct attacks and uke takes breakfalls without resistance. Tori applies a technique quickly as soon as he has thought of it. Uke takes a breakfall immediately for whatever technique is used.

Through this practice, tori should be learn to act without thought. He should use this as a base for developing the ability to change to an alternative technique depending on uke's resistance, etc.

2. Hikitate geiko

Uke takes breakfalls when tori executes correct and effective techniques but does not take breakfalls for ineffective techniques. In this case, tori quickly transfers to another technique. Uke adjusts the speed of the knife strikes, include feints and resist techniques to a degree according the the level of the opponent. In this practice, uke assists in tori's improvement.

3. Randori geiko

The person holding the knife freely attacks his opponent according to the rules and totally resists his techniques. The unarmed person aims to cultivate his techniques, mind and body through the skills that have been improved through kata, kakari geiko and hikitate geiko. Randori geiko is a practice system for progress to the highest level so it is important that aikido does not depend on physical strength but rather on posture, correct distance, avoidance, etc.

After thorough exposure to randori practice people can take part in a randori competition. However, randori geiko is not the same as a randori competition. People who do not like competitions can consider it as part of their normal practice as a way of improving their aikido.

shadow
06-20-2003, 01:22 AM
im with john,

if you cant throw someone dont try, push him out of the way and next time he tries to attack you just put someone else in the way of him and avoid it.

like in reality if there is someone you know you cant take on, you avoid them.

mj
06-20-2003, 04:39 AM
Somewhere years ago, I remember being told (or reading) that Randori means 'finding order in chaos' or some such.

SeiserL
06-20-2003, 06:59 AM
IMHO, if you cannot go with the resistance offered, let go. I have simply stepped off the line and onto the next when it turns into a wrestling match.

adriangan
06-20-2003, 07:48 AM
atemi!!! ;)

PhilJ
06-20-2003, 12:23 PM
I agree with Lynn and the other similar opinions. In my past training, randori has focused on throws and efficient movement. In a full-speed randori, locking techniques take TOO MUCH TIME. Likewise, trying to 'restart' an uke whom you could not do a technique on also takes too much time.

In that case you have less than 2 seconds between attacks (depending on # people, fatigue, etc etc), so we get off the line whenever we can as we try to escape the situation.

Also, a good tip to try in randori: technique should present itself, and not be 'searched for'.

*Phil

villrg0a
06-29-2003, 07:12 AM
thank you all for your reply, very much appreciated. I forgot to mention that I was taken down during that randori session. Anyway, this problem has been discussed at the gym and things are finally back in order again. I have not seen the other student since after the discussion. Again, thank you!

I am still practicing, and have memorized all your comments in this thread....