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Edward
06-11-2003, 01:37 AM
I have witnessed recently a disturbing scene and I would like to share it with you.

A 4th Dan female instructor has physically assaulted with punches and kicks to the face a 2nd Kyu male student who was kneeling in seiza on the mats. The reason: during Kakari Keiko of Suwari Shomenuchi Irimi Nage, he threw her harder than her ego was expecting. She just stood and attacked him while he was still kneeling, waiting to receive the next Uke. Fortunately the weight and size difference between the 2 parties was too great for her to cause any serious damage to the student.

Although it was actually quite funny to watch, I was also very shocked that this could happen in an aikido dojo and will wait to see what kind of measures the organization to which this instructor belongs will take against her. Will keep you updated.

PeterR
06-11-2003, 02:07 AM
Edward - from what you've said before there seems to be a lot of ego problems in your dojo - are there no alternatives?

By the way do you still meet up with Robert D?

Edward
06-11-2003, 03:09 AM
Edward - from what you've said before there seems to be a lot of ego problems in your dojo - are there no alternatives?

By the way do you still meet up with Robert D?
Not really. I don't think we have more problems than any other average dojo. But Aikido seems to have more ego clashes than other MA, say Karate or Judo.

I haven't seen Robert for a while now, but coincidentally, I was planning to get in touch with him soon.

Edward
06-11-2003, 03:25 AM
Oh! And I forgot to mention a small detail. The same instructor is responsible for teaching children's classes :)

Gerjan
06-11-2003, 06:58 AM
And here I was, thinking Aikido was the art of peace and harmony... :freaky:

bluwing27
06-11-2003, 07:05 AM
IMHO that was totally out of line for anyone on the mat, especially a 4th Dan! Lead by example etc etc.....

I know situations where egos are involved can become very complicated but if that had happened in one of our dojo's I think the first thing to happen would be someone asking the guilty party to leave the mat...full stop!:mad:

bluwing27
06-11-2003, 07:07 AM
........and arent we supposed to battling our own egos anyway?

Nick P.
06-11-2003, 07:51 AM
I, like Christopher have heard it said that Aikido is, among many other things, learning to master yourself.

Sounds like the technical mastery of Aikido is well on it's way. The "core" has much work to do....

Greg Jennings
06-11-2003, 08:28 AM
Hmmm. We don't have ego problems like that in our dojo, nor in any dojo I've been in.

When I was training in karate back in my teens and early 20's, fights broke out regularly.

I'm not trying to say aikido is superior or karate (or anything else) inferior. Just trying to share a different experience.

Regards,

taras
06-11-2003, 09:21 AM
people who do Aikido are still people, and they have all sorts of issues and problems, even high ranking ones. When you first start it is nice to believe that everyone around you is perfect just because they are martial artists, BUT ...

I see it as something that I had to learn. I saw a dan-ranked Aikidoka failing student's gradings because he was in a bad mood (this is not just my opinion). I read a strory about two dans wrestling in a dojo just because they could not solve their argument peacefully.

It is not something that you would like to see in an Aikido dojo, but there is a lesson there for everyone looking. I think it helps you understand people better, understand that they are just people, and perhaps it helps you to see something in yourself, something to work on...

Grappler
06-11-2003, 10:15 AM
Must be her PMS period. You know how women are. Also needs to get laid more often. When women dont get their healthy dose of shagging, they get all cranky and frustrated and things like this happen.

akiy
06-11-2003, 10:41 AM
Hi folks,

Please keep sexist comments off of these forums. I don't appreciate such stuff here.

-- Jun

opherdonchin
06-11-2003, 11:27 AM
Thanks, Jun. I wasn't even sure if Andrew's comments were meant seriously or were intended as a (poor) jest or parody.

I've never seen anything like this in any dojo I've trained in or visited. I have seen all sorts of immature behavior by high ranking dans, though. On the other hand, I've also seen occasional weak technique from high ranking dans, too, so I guess there is a lot to learn even after many years of training.

Of course, there is also no shortage of people (even on this site) who feel that an emphasis on spiritual development in Aikido is misplaced.

I'd also like to say that, however innappropriate her behavior may have been, she was probably very frustrated. It's possible that her frustrations ought to be addressed, whatever else is done about the incident.

jxa127
06-11-2003, 01:14 PM
All,

I find it strange that so many comments express a measure of understanding for this 4th dan female instructor. Had it been a 4th dan male instructor doing the same thing, I'm sure this board would be filled with strong condemnations of his actions.

Personally, I find that kind of behavior absolutely unacceptable from anyone at any rank. I know I've been angry a couple of times on that mat. Frustrated more than a couple of times. I've never lashed out at my uke or had anyone lash out at me.

Still, before forming a judgement, it would be helpful to know how often this particular student loses her temper. Is that particular 2nd kyu really hard on all his ukes? Are there other background facts that would put this incident in context?

More to the point: Edward, why did you post this here? What sort of response are you looking for? (These are honest questions, I'd really like to know.)

Regards,

-Drew

Janet Rosen
06-11-2003, 01:20 PM
All,

I find it strange that so many comments express a measure of understanding for this 4th dan female instructor. Had it been a 4th dan male instructor doing the same thing, I'm sure this board would be filled with strong condemnations of his actions.

Personally, I find that kind of behavior absolutely unacceptable from anyone at any rank.

-Drew
I quite agree.

Also had it been a male instructor, I do not think we would have been wondering whether he'd gotten laid recently or not.

First of all, its just plain an abuse of authority.

Second of all, no it is NOT typical of aikido dojos, and if tolerated is evidence of a very sick dojo culture.

opherdonchin
06-11-2003, 01:59 PM
I think people who feel that their reaction might have been different with a male instructor should speak in their own voice ("if it had been a male instructor, I don't think I would have been wondering ..."). It really troubles me when people speak for others.

I think that the comment about sexual frustration would have been equally inappropriate whether the yudansha was male or female.

I think that I would want to know why the yudansha had gotten so frustrated whether they were male or female.

Central to this story is that despite the fact that the yudansha assaulted a 2nd kyu student "with punches and kicks," nobody got hurt physically. This could happen with a very small male yudansha, but there are more small women than small men. The fact that no one got injured helps me look beyond the obviously innapropriate behavior and ask about reasons.

I'm also interested in what Drew is looking for.

shihonage
06-11-2003, 02:13 PM
A 4th Dan female instructor has physically assaulted with punches and kicks to the face a 2nd Kyu male student who was kneeling in seiza on the mats. The reason: during Kakari Keiko of Suwari Shomenuchi Irimi Nage, he threw her harder than her ego was expecting. She just stood and attacked him while he was still kneeling, waiting to receive the next Uke.
He's a second kyu, he should be able by now to handle a real attack from an enraged, dedicated opponent.

John Boswell
06-11-2003, 02:16 PM
Before I even address the completely stupid and immature reaction of that alleged 4th dan Aikidoka, I want to bring up my personally taking offense to others coming in here with sexist remarks!

Grow up, people! Anyone who can take a look at a childish fight breaking out.... in a DOJO no less... and then putting the blame on the fact that one of the parties is a woman, experiencing PMS, needs to get 'shagged' or whatever... ALL of this only goes to prove there is a great deal of maturity left to be found by some here on the boards. My disappointment is beyond discription.

As for the assult: I'd have thrown her out of the dojo (had I been the instructor) and not let her back (except to apologize to everyone, especially the Nage) for six months minimum.

This topic is far from a joking matter. FAR from it...

Michael Neal
06-11-2003, 03:25 PM
LOL, this is the most entertaining thread ever.

bluwing27
06-11-2003, 03:46 PM
I, like Christopher have heard it said that Aikido is, among many other things, learning to master yourself.

Sounds like the technical mastery of Aikido is well on it's way. The "core" has much work to do....
True...True.....

One of my instructors sayings which has stuck with me is.....

'Aikido is a physical martial art expressing an inner spiritual development, punctuated along the way with little coloured belts which keep us interested'

Im sure we can all relate :)

So working on this then does poor technique express a poorly or lesser developed inner self? (im thinking dan grades here not kyu grades obviously :) )

And if so then what do the actions of the female 4th dan express?.....whether shes is having a bad day, bad week, personal problems or is sexually frustrated like some seem to think!

The dojo is a place to go to train, forget everyday life and work on yourself through developing good technique....its not a stress buster no matter how many people think it might! I know a 1st dan aikidoka whose training was for pretty much the reason ive just stated and the technique was....well effective...but it certainly wasnt pretty! :confused: leaving the feeling that there was just something missing!?!?

Sorry if ive ranted and wandered a bit....just had to get it out :p

Qatana
06-11-2003, 03:48 PM
you know, i don't see anybody expressing ANY "measure of understanding" for anybody female here, just uneducated,sexist generalisation.

Any instructor, taking out Any frustration on student is inappropriate.Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it- unless the student made an inappropriate sexist remark to his teacher.still doesn't excuse her, but really,this is not about gender except to two rather immature "young"(i must assume) men.

Ron Tisdale
06-11-2003, 03:56 PM
No, unfortunately, us middle aged and even "old" men can be just as immature...

Ron

aikidoc
06-11-2003, 04:25 PM
A couple of issues hit me on this thread:

1. The 4th dan no matter the age or sex appears to be immature in handling the situation. It is not only inappropriate behavior, but also reprehensible.

2. Is there another side? Does this 2nd kyu constantly aggressively or inappropriately throw other students on purpose? This sometimes occurs in seminars and tests where ego, adrenaline, bad hair day, or whatever intervenes and short circuits the intellectual ability of the nage. Ultimately, injury to another student in my opinion is the responsibility of the nage unless the uke just does something stupid. Deliberately attacking another is assault and probably has legal implications. If the second kyu has a history of causing pain or injury to others regularly then a better approach was needed. Talking/warning first, helping them experience the nature of their technique (here is how this feels when you do it to me or others and if you don't like it quit it), or suspension or removal from the dojo.

3. Perhaps someone was trying to be cute with the sexist remarks but I think few find this funny. Political correctness and just common courtesy should make us all sensitive to such comments. Keep them to yourself. Besides, us males are just as prone to hormonally driven behavior (testosterone frequently short circuits the brain in the male species) as females. And when we do it we are generally more dangerous. Therefore the comment is inappropriate and offensive.

4. Personally, I think this instructor has seriously damaged her status with her students and should be replaced or at best seriously reprimanded-regardless whether female or male. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior. Especially in an art of harmony.

Katie Jennings
06-11-2003, 05:55 PM
Hi,

The 4th Dan assulting a kyu student is clearly out of line- as is the amount of ignorant sexism that has followed. Whether the instructor is male or female is irrelevant. Also, just for Andrew's information, most women who "need to get laid more often" do not fly into a fit of rage, nor do most women when suffering from PMS! Finally, Jaxon- why is it understandable???

Mike Collins
06-11-2003, 06:56 PM
Well,

All the sexist stuff aside, what if this had been a male instructor at the 4th dan level? Would the bigger 2nd kyu have thrown with as much force if it were a man he was throwing? I submit that there is a subset of meatballs out there who believe that if a woman wants to train, she better be able to take a pounding. This same subset is also heavily peopled by a yet lower tier of meatball who will kiss a male black belts butt a long time before they'd ever consider planting them with a ton of force.

It's fine to say gender is not an issue, and in a perfect world it'd be true. Gender simply matters.

If a male black belt of less substantial size beat the crap out of a brown belt of substantial size who he felt had been brutish, I think most people would have made allowances for his "instructing" a student. Many of the old guys used to do it, many still do, it's just less of a topic of conversation.

It would be just as wrong. But it would have made way less of a "cute" story than one in which a smaller female basically bounces off of a big guy.

I wasn't there, and I don't know either party, but my immediate perception was in fact affected by the sexes of the participants. And I'll bet most other folks' was too.

zachbiesanz
06-11-2003, 07:26 PM
Andrew,Jaxon, how old are you?
More nearly than any of his predecessors, Andrew Jackson was elected by popular vote; as President he sought to act as the direct representative of the common man.

Born in a backwoods settlement in the Carolinas in 1767, he received sporadic education. But in his late teens he read law for about two years, and he became an outstanding young lawyer in Tennessee. Fiercely jealous of his honor, he engaged in brawls, and in a duel killed a man who cast an unjustified slur on his wife Rachel.

Let's see, I guess that would be 236 or so. But this thread is about a violent outburst, not "Old Hickory" and his history. Please stay on topic; and no joking around.

Qatana
06-11-2003, 08:26 PM
er, huh? i was being serious. are you being sarcastic? you do it well.

Edward
06-11-2003, 09:03 PM
More to the point: Edward, why did you post this here? What sort of response are you looking for? (These are honest questions, I'd really like to know.)

Regards,

-Drew
Well, I actually intend to compare the reactions on these forums (the public opinion, so to speak) with the one from the concerned organization and see if they coincide or differ.

I myself was very angered by what happened and thought that strong measures should be taken against the instructor. I wanted to see if others would share the same position. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any action so far from the organization. I assume that the instructor must have been reprimanded privately, but that's as far as it went. The student has not been seen in the dojo since the incident.

Steven
06-11-2003, 09:17 PM
Too funny!

:D
More nearly than any of his predecessors, Andrew Jackson was elected by popular vote; as President he sought to act as the direct representative of the common man.

Born in a backwoods settlement in the Carolinas in 1767, he received sporadic education. But in his late teens he read law for about two years, and he became an outstanding young lawyer in Tennessee. Fiercely jealous of his honor, he engaged in brawls, and in a duel killed a man who cast an unjustified slur on his wife Rachel.

Let's see, I guess that would be 236 or so. But this thread is about a violent outburst, not "Old Hickory" and his history. Please stay on topic; and no joking around.

PeterR
06-11-2003, 09:51 PM
Well I hope the student returns - if only to show that one persons attrocious behaviour will have no effect.

By the way 4th Dan male or female, big or small, should be sanctioned. Banned for a month sounds about right along with an unqualified public appology. The 2nd kyu should of course save the 4th Dan a bit of face saying something about overdoing it a bit whether they did or not.

darin
06-11-2003, 11:31 PM
I read somewhere that if you don't be careful karate will make you an aggressive person, judo a stupid person and aikido an arrogant person.

Raining in Himeji Peter?

Edward
06-12-2003, 12:03 AM
I am not trying to be mean here, but it seems the same instructor has 2 years ago severely injured the arm of a 16 year old female student with whom she had issues because she used to "talk a lot in class". The instructor had to formally apologize to the girl and her parents in a private meeting.

It is very unfortunate that such psychologically unstable people are allowed to teach children such a potentially dangerous thing as a martial art. Perhaps France has so far the best system in which you have to pass severe exams done by the government in order to be given an instructor's certificate in any martial art or other physical activities.

happysod
06-12-2003, 03:51 AM
I find myself rather saddened that many have chosen to use gender to avoid the main issue, high-ranking dan grade attacks kyu grade. Seems simple to me, the dan grade should have been removed from the association, not just the dojo.

As for Peter's kyu grade should help "save face" in any apology - why? Is the honour (and ego) of a dan grade much more important than that of a lowly kyu grade and should be cosseted?

Andrew, you're playing awkward sod again, suggest you stick to being "meathead fighter" rather than therapist, much more convincing and entertaining.

PeterR
06-12-2003, 05:51 AM
As for Peter's kyu grade should help "save face" in any apology - why? Is the honour (and ego) of a dan grade much more important than that of a lowly kyu grade and should be cosseted?
Because a little bit of face saving effort takes the edge off the humiliation and believe me a 4th Dan having to appologize to a kyu grade is just that. I am not talking about meeting in the middle but am talking about leaving an opening for better relations.

In Japan you often hear someone use the term "excuse me" or "sorry" when the other party was clearly at fault. It's an easy habit to pick up and does wonders in restoring wa - it does not imply guilt. Conversly I collided with a lady in Amercia shortly after I left Japan (both of us were not paying as much attention as we should have) and after I appologized she got real "well I should hope so" on me. Which way is better?

Anyway - its my night to volunteer my time and abuse the kids at the Judo dojo.

Cheers

Michael Neal
06-12-2003, 07:43 AM
The 2nd kyu should of course save the 4th Dan a bit of face saying something about overdoing it a bit whether they did or not
I have a feeling that this 2nd kyu will not be returning.
do not fly into a fit of rage, nor do most women when suffering from PMS!

I beg to differ with you regarding the PMS!
Political correctness and just common courtesy should make us all sensitive to such comments.
Although I am amused by this thread I do think that there should be some courtesy. This guy is really crossing the line.

However to hell with political correctness,the only reason it is inapproriate here is becasue this is an Aikido forum not an open chat, and this is a serious subject that someone is trying to resolve.

As far as making fun of women in general, I find nothing wrong with it. They sure do not hold back on us. Have you watched any TV lately, every show or commercial I see features a woman as the "smart" head of the household with a bumbling idiot husband always doing stupid things.

happysod
06-12-2003, 09:09 AM
Peter, a similar "manners" option regarding apologies does exist in the UK, but this is normally only used when there was no deliberate intent. In this case we are discussing a deliberate, violent attack. Any face saving would, in my opinion, be an unacceptable gain for the aggressor, diluting the actual facts of the transgression.

Michael, agree with you over your TV comment, but I've never held TV producers to be the acme of wit or social commentary. However, regarding PMS, research has implied that men in long-term relationships also suffer from the hormonal effects their partners are experiencing, how often have you suggested your male sensei's manner is different for this reason? (and let's not discount male menopause etc. etc)

As far as aikido is concerned, I've never noticed any significant difference between practicing with an experienced woman or an equivalent male other than the normal differences in physical type, which aren't always skewed towards the male practitioner. I emphasise experience as I've noticed there is still an artificial difference between male and female beginners regarding agression and "acceptable violence", but this soon passes. With this view I still have no problem with severely censoring the 4th dan in question.

Edward, thanks for keeping us informed.

paw
06-12-2003, 10:22 AM
Here's my attempt at humor.....
She just stood and attacked him while he was still kneeling, waiting to receive the next Uke. Fortunately the weight and size difference between the 2 parties was too great for her to cause any serious damage to the student.

I thought size didn't matter in aikido?

Seriously,

If the dojo were mine to run:

The instructor would be expelled immediately. The attacked student would be given 3 months free training. The entire student body would be informed of what occured and made clear such behavior will never be tolerated.

If I trained in such a dojo:

I would immediately train elsewhere. If there wasn't another place to train, I would stop training altogether, unless the owner/operator/chief instructor expelled this instructor. (I presume this has not occured)

But then again....I'm evil.

Regards,

Paul

akiy
06-12-2003, 10:30 AM
Hi folks,

This thread has been trimmed a bit to the topic on-hand. I hope the discussion will continue in a civil manner from now...

-- Jun

mj
06-12-2003, 12:06 PM
Almost exactly the same thing happened to me a few years ago...

I started aikido in 1999 at a club in my town and trained diligently for 2 years and even managed a week long summer camp in 2000. (Hi to anyone who was in Durham)

At the club there was one dan who was always moody, he regularly shouted and swore at the kyus. I should add he was not always like this..only frequently. His actions were always ignored by the sensei.

(Almost amusingly, once a visitor came and saw the way that this dan acted, thought it was the club's way...and slapped a 25 year old male beginner hard in the face for not attacking 'properly'. You look back and see the humour)

The club did not have a spread of grades, merely beginner adults up to 4th kyu and dans.

The kyu grades would often find something better to do if they knew that our mercurial friend was going to be there if the sensei was not taking the class.

So anyway...one night (, my 2nd last at the club,) he was in a bitch of a mood. Sensei had not appeared to teach the class and the class was unsettling from the start, we had a guy who had only been twice and he was sworn at and hit in the stomach, an older woman was shouted and sworn at in a personal manner. After both of these incidents I quietly approached each of them and did my best to settle them. Not quietly enough, apparently ;)

The tempestuous dan chose me for the next practice, during which the teacher (another first dan) had to correct him for a basic error (I remember thinking 'Jeez, just what I need') and he just went....very...very....quiet :mad:

I held his wrist for him to apply the (stationary) technique, caught one look of his eye, and dropped as fast as I could...and he went flying over me and landed on his ass...he had tried to hit me...to actually physically thump me and I had recognised the intent and just dropped to my knees.

As I sat on the ground totally bemused he came up behind me and booted me in the back and arm...swearing like my wife. (I am small light and thin, but decades of judo have made my back as tough as a seamstresses thumb).

He asked me 'outside', red-faced and spitting...I turned to the other Dan and said something along the lines of 'Are you going to get a control of your class?' (Pure aikido, I thought at the time) At which Mr Angry stormed off the mat.

An hour or so later, I started to react furiously to what had happened, in fact I started a topic on Aikiweb about abusive Dans.

Once the sensei heard what had happened (News Headlines: Guy who deserves what he gets, gets it!) the sensei laid the blame at my door. Not an entirely amicable departure. I saw the sensei some time later in town and gave him a printout of the discussion on AikiWeb and I was pleased with the apoplectic rage I caused :p

shihonage
06-12-2003, 02:28 PM
Andrew, you're playing awkward sod again, suggest you stick to being "meathead fighter" rather than "the rapist", much more convincing and entertaining.
Fixed.

fotomaniak
06-12-2003, 03:45 PM
As for Peter's kyu grade should help "save face" in any apology - why? Is the honour (and ego) of a dan grade much more important than that of a lowly kyu grade and should be cosseted?
Because a little bit of face saving effort takes the edge off the humiliation and believe me a 4th Dan having to appologize to a kyu grade is just that.
Peter, I must disagree with you on this.

First of all appology should be given regardles of the rank. And it's up to the student who was attacked to decide wether to accept it, don't accept it or accept it and play "face saving game"

I believe this is true regardless of the people involved. In the dojo, outside the dojo, does not matter. If I've done an ugly thing, and sincerely sorry then I'll apologise for it, I will not try to "save face" by finding an excuse.

I think the dojo context does not change the situation... Let's look at what happened: one person attacked another person. Now, the one who has attacked should appologize. That's it.

Your post implies that when a higher ranked student appologizing to a lower ranked student he is granded a chance to "save the face". Why is that? Just because of his rank/years of practice? but the incident only shows that after all these years of practice this person still has a lot to work on. Why not start from sincerely apologizing?!

Yes, making an appology can feel humiliating, but I don't see why it should be more humilliating to appologize to a lower ranked student? Is the lower ranked student somehow considered not worthy of an apology?

Regards

Igor

Ta Kung
06-12-2003, 06:21 PM
Just to ad more fuel to the fire of "embarassing apology" thingy:

Please do inform me how making an appology for acting like an arse, is more embarassing than doing what she did in the first place?

If I did something like that (not a chance!) the only way to save face would be to appologize. And as far as I'm concerned, that would still not cut it.

Best wishes,

Patrik

PeterR
06-12-2003, 06:55 PM
Your post implies that when a higher ranked student appologizing to a lower ranked student he is granded a chance to "save the face". Why is that? Just because of his rank/years of practice? but the incident only shows that after all these years of practice this person still has a lot to work on. Why not start from sincerely apologizing?!
Where did I say it had to do with a difference in rank, or sex or whatever. It has nothing to do with right or wrong but social lubricant.

Every one knows who was at fault, who is being put on the spot and who is making the gesture.

This is a very Eastern way of dealing with things and in my mind superior from the polarizing approach typical of the West.

Edward
06-12-2003, 09:54 PM
News update:

The student has been asked by the head instructor to resume training as if nothing happened. He however demanded an apology from the the 4th dan before returning to training. Nothing happened so far.

On the other hand, I have mentioned earlier a 16 years old girl who was intentionally injured by the instructor, and had to apologize to the girl and her parents. Well this girl was a 2nd kyu, and she had a sister (2nd kyu) and a brother (shodan) training at the same dojo. After the "apologies", this instructor made their life such a living hell that the girls stopped aikido altogether, and the brother, who was a great aikidoka by the way, shows up only 3-4 times a year.

Therefore, I am not sure if the apologies in this case would solve the problem but probably make it worse. Forgot to mention that the 4th dan instructor is the right hand of the head instructor and basically controls every thing from A to Z, including member subscriptions, training fees, grading application forms... etc, not only for that particular dojo, but for the whole country, which makes moving to another dojo pointless. So basically she is in a position to cause a lot of damage.

PeterR
06-12-2003, 10:11 PM
Therefore, I am not sure if the apologies in this case would solve the problem but probably make it worse. Forgot to mention that the 4th dan instructor is the right hand of the head instructor and basically controls every thing from A to Z, including member subscriptions, training fees, grading application forms... etc, not only for that particular dojo, but for the whole country, which makes moving to another dojo pointless. So basically she is in a position to cause a lot of damage.
Yuck - massive sympathies to that student and anyone else exposed to that mess.

Maybe Bob should think about expanding.

YEME
06-12-2003, 10:44 PM
are we going for trial by mob?

i agree with John Riggs. We don't know what exactly happened.

What i have a problem with in this story is the amount of tolerance that other students at this dojo seem to give to what sounds like abusive and potentially legal action inspiring manner.

I am not condoning abusive behaviour on anyone's part, but wouldn't a group response gain better results? How do other students at this dojo feel about what has occured and what should be done, and have numbers dwindled since?

that's my vague 2 cents worth.



i'll go sharpen my guillotine now...

DaveO
06-12-2003, 11:40 PM
Hello all; please allow me to toss my own two needless cents into the fray. :)

First; we must say we don't know the entire story; so therefore cannot provide a completely informed opinion. Edward has stated however that this and other events he has witnessed first-hand; so unless he's particularly suceptible to hypnosis (j/k), we must accept what he's saying as fact, or say he's lying - something I certainly have no cause to do.

As a teacher; I find any assault of a techer on a student to be both criminal and reprehensible. As a teacher in any field; you are placed in a position of trust over your students - to violate that trust, particularly in such a violent manner, is the worst thing any teacher can do. In my opinion, there is no way this person should be allowed to teach.

Let's look at the particulars of the crime: Edward stated she attacked the student nage after he threw her 'harder than her ego expected'. Forgive me; but even accounting for the fact that ego is no cause for violence; was this Yondan not trained in ukemi? 4th Dan my be an average level to some; but it's astronomically high to one way down at my level. I personally know no yudansha whos ukemi cannot handle any throw under any circumstance on the mat - and know of very few who do not insist a student nage perform a technique to maximum effect. The throw was not the cause of the attack - simply an excuse.

For this reason; I find myself in the uncomfortable position of disagreeing with Peter - I generally don't. :) While I agree that excusing onesself in an accidental bump is only polite; what this teacher did is wholly and completely inexcuseable; she should have been removed on the spot. Were I Sensei of this dojo; I wouldn't have bothered to demand an apology; based on her prior reported behaviour; it is highly doubtful that an apology would be sincere. No; my response would have been "get out now!"

That's my opinion on the matter; thanx for letting me spout. :)

PeterR
06-13-2003, 12:19 AM
I'm being painted into a corner here.

The action deserves condemnation and sanction - I never said otherwise. What I did and still do suggest for whoever the offended party is - not to see the above as a personal victory but to look for the future.

Still as the News Update pointed out this is not an isolated incident and looks like someone thinks they are untouchable. New dojos have been started up for less.

Kevin Wilbanks
06-13-2003, 12:33 AM
News update:

The student has been asked by the head instructor to resume training as if nothing happened. He however demanded an apology from the the 4th dan before returning to training. Nothing happened so far.

On the other hand, I have mentioned earlier a 16 years old girl who was intentionally injured by the instructor, and had to apologize to the girl and her parents. Well this girl was a 2nd kyu, and she had a sister (2nd kyu) and a brother (shodan) training at the same dojo. After the "apologies", this instructor made their life such a living hell that the girls stopped aikido altogether, and the brother, who was a great aikidoka by the way, shows up only 3-4 times a year.

Therefore, I am not sure if the apologies in this case would solve the problem but probably make it worse. Forgot to mention that the 4th dan instructor is the right hand of the head instructor and basically controls every thing from A to Z, including member subscriptions, training fees, grading application forms... etc, not only for that particular dojo, but for the whole country, which makes moving to another dojo pointless. So basically she is in a position to cause a lot of damage.
The situation sounds worse every time you describe it. Contrary to what you conceive, things like this are not common to dojos everywhere, and in fact would put most US dojos out of business in a hurry. I don't think many americans would give their money and free time to be part of something like that.

Unfortunately, what you say about the history and the relationship between this person and the chief instructor leads me to put the blame on the chief instructor, and hence, most likely the whole organization.

How can I put this? If your house is littered with rotted feces, it doesn't matter whether it came out of your ass or not, it's your responsibility to clean it up. In a hierarchical organization, one must fault the one in charge. Only someone far too oblivious to be an Aikido shihan or sensei could keep such a petty, abusive person on as their first officer obliviously.

If you have the hair for it, I suggest confronting the head instructor and calling him/her to task for allowing someone like that to act on his/her behalf. If the situation is as you describe, I would tell the instructor what I thought and let the chips fall where they may. If I cared enough, and thought the danger to minors was great enough, I'd probably look into the options in terms of legal recourse.

K.

Edward
06-13-2003, 12:54 AM
What i have a problem with in this story is the amount of tolerance that other students at this dojo seem to give to what sounds like abusive and potentially legal action inspiring manner.
Anna, I don't know how it is in your country, but here in Thailand what you imply about a group protest is unthinkable. Thais have such a blind respect for authority, and do not look at things with the critical eye we westerners do.

At this dojo, we are only a few expats, the vast majority of the students being Thai.

The said teacher has succeeded in almost hypnotizing a large group of students, mostly white and orange belts, into believing she's a great aikido master, and they follow her faithfully wherever she goes. You wouldn't believe the kind of verbal and sometimes physical abuse in her classes, which are closer to a military bootcamp than an aikido practice. Of course, being a part of the group of her close devotees entails good advantages in terms for belt promotion, and less abuse in class, but also involves responsibilities like doing errands for her, taking her out for dinner after training... etc. The strange thing is that the students seem to be so happy to be abused by her, looking up at her as a great martial artist and role model.

I confess to have been part of her group when I started aikido, but of course I had to withdraw myself gradually as I became aware of what was expected from me.

I was almost convinced at the time that she had the right to break the poor girl's arm because she and her family were disruptive elements in the dojo who did not respect the sanctity of the place and deserved a punishment. In her opinion that time, the master can do anything he wants with the student as part of his Budo education and cannot be asked to apologize to a student, something which she considered shameful and humiliating.

Edward
06-13-2003, 01:19 AM
Unfortunately, what you say about the history and the relationship between this person and the chief instructor leads me to put the blame on the chief instructor, and hence, most likely the whole organization.
I agree with you 100% and have on several occasions brought up the subject, but I never received a clear and convincing answer.

I do believe however that he does not consider the situation as alarming as I view it. You know, the old generation aikidoists have been subjected to a lot of abuse by their Sempai, so I really don't know....

Maybe we students of the 21 century have different standards than that of the generation of the 1950's and 1960's.

YEME
06-13-2003, 01:27 AM
Sorry Edward, I think i meant my rambling response as a general observation of society today.

I can't begin to understand the cultural difference so its very hard to give advice/opinion. I don't know what is/isn't acceptable there. Here we can basically take the offender to court in worst case scenario...but there would have been questioning/discussion and possibly physical retaliation/defence at the time of the incident.

it only takes one voice to speak up in order to start others asking themselves the same questions ...or else vote with your feet.

no one deserves to be treated in the way that you describe.

but again, i am not in your shoes and this is not an ideal world.

Edward
06-13-2003, 02:26 AM
I agree with you 100% and have on several occasions brought up the subject, but I never received a clear and convincing answer.
Regarding the same subject, let me tell you an anecdote which happened about 1 year ago.

An Indian man used to bring his teenage daughter every day to training and watch her untill she finishes to escort her home. One day, the intructor was particularly in a bad mood, and she relieved all her frustration on the poor girl, who was in tears. The father was fuming.

After the training, I saw the man and his daughter go into the head instructor's office. I thought to myself: Someone is finally gonna do something about it!

Later on I went to see the head instructor, and he told me: You see that Indian man? He just told me that he is very happy that the class is so severe because it is good for building personnality. He asked us to be as severe as possible with his daughter. You always complain about this instructor, but you see, some people like it this way.

I was shocked and couldn't believe that a father would watch his daughter being verbally abused to the point of crying, and ask for more. It must have been a misunderstanding. Maybe he was being sarcastic or something?

Effectively, they never showed up again at the dojo. If they were so happy with the special "treatment", they should have come back for more.

The sad thing is that the head instructor still believes untill now that the man was serious about asking for more punishment for his daughter.

Brian Boyd
06-13-2003, 03:20 AM
I was wondering 2 things. What do people think would have happned if:

1. The student (who we are told was much bigger than the instructor) after getting hit and kicked in the face, plain and simply gave the teach a good old fashion "butt kicking." Just beating her into the ground. (Assuming that the student could) Yea, this might not solve anything, but maybe this is what this instructor needs.

2. Assuming that we would have been in a county where lawsuits are common, what if the student decided to sue the instructor for battery in civil court, and also press charges in criminal court for the assault?

jxa127
06-13-2003, 10:11 AM
Edward,

Why do you continue to train there? Life is too short and money too scarce to spend either in an unhealthy environment like that.

Regards,

aikidoc
06-13-2003, 10:56 AM
Edward:

Geez. Everytime you provide new information this person sounds even more dangerous and scary. She sounds like a petty dictator and apparently this behavior is being sanctioned or tolerated by the head instructor. That is very disturbing. This sounds like someone who has no business teaching period.

By the way. Do you know an aikidoka named Preecha? He got his shodan in the states and he is an artist. I don't recall the spelling of his last name-I believe it starts with a N. I used to train with him in Temecula California. I know he moved back to Thailand and I believe it was Bangkok.

Edward
06-13-2003, 11:13 AM
Why do you continue to train there?
Well, I have been recently asking myself this vey question. Thanks :)

Edward
06-13-2003, 11:16 AM
Do you know an aikidoka named Preecha? He got his shodan in the states and he is an artist.
If he's still training, I should know him. The problem is that Thais usually use nicknames rather than their real names. I'll ask and let you know.

Don_Modesto
06-13-2003, 01:15 PM
if:

1. The student (who we are told was much bigger than the instructor) after getting hit and kicked in the face, plain and simply gave the teach a good old fashion "butt kicking." Just beating her into the ground. (Assuming that the student could) Yea, this might not solve anything, but maybe this is what this instructor needs.

2. Assuming that we would have been in a county where lawsuits are common, what if the student decided to sue the instructor for battery in civil court, and also press charges in criminal court for the assault?
1) A second instance of battery will have been comitted and the perpetrator would be answerable to criminal charges (in the US, anyway).

2) It would be healthy. A wake up call. Unfortunately, it would probably also hurt genuinely tough (not vicious) training. I'm thinking of how child abuse came out of the closet some years ago and how some innocent individuals have been railroaded and ruined unjustly in the name of stopping it.

Goye
06-13-2003, 04:20 PM
Hello everyone! :)

Itīs evident that this case is more serious than it seems. First I thought it was an isolated incident but itīs not. :freaky:

There is something that worries to me, we havenīt hear the instructorīs version about the incident or from other students or either the cheif instructor. This isnīt a judgement space because this chat doesnīt have any atribution for this ussues. Even that, I think we can contribute to make from Aikido a better Martial Art wolrdwide day by day by sharing opinions, points of view and experiences. I sugest to Edward to joint other people from the same Dojo to express themselves and rich this chat. If they agree will be so good listen opinions from the instructor we are talking or the chief instructor.

Based on what Edward express to this forum I can confirm thereīs something wrong inside organization. I donīt know Aikidoīs Organizational Structure on Tailand, but i guess the chieff instructor must have a membership to someone higher Organization or be linked somehow to some a Shihan. I think this Shihan should know this case to prevent other further problems like this.

The way of Akidoīs practice involves some self-regulation mechanisms for preventing that situations like this turn in a very nocive troubles, for society and also for people invoved in Aikido. If there is something wrong itīs a concen of all of us involve in Aikido to act in order to prevent this cases!!,.. we have to prevent the drgradation of our art!!

BYE!!!

Edward
06-13-2003, 10:48 PM
I sugest to Edward to joint other people from the same Dojo to express themselves and rich this chat. If they agree will be so good listen opinions from the instructor we are talking or the chief instructor.

Based on what Edward express to this forum I can confirm thereīs something wrong inside organization.
Cesar, let's not jump to conclusions here. A bad apple does not mean that the whole organization is at fault.

As I said earlier, it is inconcievable for a Thai to speak up against a teacher. They have 2 choices, either to accept the situation stoically or leave. Some accept it and many leave, in fact. Plus some people seem to enjoy verbal abuse and a bootcamp like training.

As for the expats, I am probably the only one to take aikido seriously. The others just come after work once or twice a week, and most avoid this instructor's classes. Plus no one would want to attract the wrath of this lady, believe me.

I have to say here that plain physical abuse has been limited in the last 3 years to the current incident, plus breaking a student's arm 2 years ago. I heard that this instructor had many years ago physically attacked other female Yudansha, but I cannot confirm because I did not do aikido that time. During her classes you can hear 200 meters away her voice shouting at the students, using such words like stupid, jackass, buffalo (synonym to stupid in Thai). She would stand near the ear of the "stupid" party shouting the instructions into his ear, and the poor student completely confused, forgetting the little that he already knew about the technique. When demonstrating techniques, she likes to show domination such as by finishing the technique with her foot on Uke's neck or head, or pulling his/her hair, all this with a Napoleonic grandeur and self satisfaction. This cannot be called really physical abuse but it is rather an attack on the student's self esteem and honor, very similar to bootcamp style.

Ron Tisdale
06-16-2003, 03:31 PM
I'd be outa there quick. I don't even want to see other people treated like that, let alone allow myself to be treated that way.

RT

Phillip Armel
06-16-2003, 08:22 PM
I know it's uunfortunate that a 4th dan would assult a student because she got thrown a little harder then she wanted, but I can sympathize a bit with her. There could be more too this story than meets the eye. Perhaps the attacker was being a bit over-zealous and she asked him not too ect. I know those "sexist" remarks were over the line or w/e, but perhaps what he said could have some truth, but maybe they didn't apply too the situation. Lol, don't take it wrong I don't nessecarly agree, but I wouldn't go too crazy on him lol. I encounter alot of stuff like that at my dojo, so I might just be callous too it. Hmm, maybe she's not ready for the responsibility of being a 4th dan, there's more too ranking then just knowledge of the art. She should be repremanded, but I wouldn't replace her or anything, everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure she'll become a better aikidoka becase of it.

paw
06-16-2003, 08:49 PM
Philip,
She should be repremanded, but I wouldn't replace her or anything, everyone makes mistakes and I'm sure she'll become a better aikidoka becase of it.

right.... She has a history of this, or did you skip this part of the thread:
On the other hand, I have mentioned earlier a 16 years old girl who was intentionally injured by the instructor, and had to apologize to the girl and her parents. Well this girl was a 2nd kyu, and she had a sister (2nd kyu) and a brother (shodan) training at the same dojo. After the "apologies", this instructor made their life such a living hell that the girls stopped aikido altogether, and the brother, who was a great aikidoka by the way, shows up only 3-4 times a year.

Don't know about you, but the word intentionally speaks volumes about her character.

Regards,

Paul

Phillip Armel
06-16-2003, 08:57 PM
Ugh, I read the part about the history, but I still think she could overcome it. Her problem is obviously non-aikido related that needs too be adressed. I don't think booting her out would solve anything. Like I said before, if there's been a history of this, how did she get too 4th dan?

drDalek
06-19-2003, 07:57 AM
Thank god I dont do hockey because my aunt (who does) once got some abuse like this from a coach and gave the coach a reason to make up stories about "falling down the stairs" if you know what I mean, and I think you do.

On a lighter note, my friend who was reading this over my shoulder gave me this advice in dealing with agressive women:

step 1: punch her on the boob

step 2: repeat step 1

Qatana
06-19-2003, 09:46 AM
this is perhaps more offensive than the PMS remarks.tell your friend some of us may have some "advice" for him.

SmilingNage
06-19-2003, 10:08 AM
errr your solution... the old boob punch. honestly I dont know why as an Aiki community we didnt come up with that one much sooner. Step out of line and its the old boob punch for you. Does that mean if H. Clinton runs for president I can boob punch her as well?

The reality of it all is, what comes around goes around. No doubt she will tweak the wrong person and the dividends will be paid in full. But the atmosphere of the dojo must be one that allows such behavior to propagate. So as much as we want to lay the full blame on her,and rightly so, there are others involved in this equation.

I would choose to walk away from this one.

Goye
06-19-2003, 10:56 AM
The problem is that she is showing a wrong image of Aikido. I donīt think Aikido has a definitive, unique and correct way of teaching, but I am sure she is doing something wrong.

I canīt imagine some body talking about an aikido dojo experience as a place like hell where there is somebody called Sensei that yells like a crazy person :grr: and abuse of his/her rank,....,.. personally I always tell my first day students that Aikido dojo is a place where you can come to enjoy a practice, relax, and also have fun.:p :D

Edward,.. iīm sure not all your partners in the dojo think like her but in the organization structure and mechanisms there is something that is not working well,....

does she or the chief instructor know about this thread?

Glacius-Vector
06-19-2003, 11:02 AM
I only lurk, and rarely post here, but I feel the need to chime in on this one.

In my limited Aikido experience, I know that when in the dojo you are not only humbling yourself, but allowing your body to be an instrument of practice – and people must, (not can, not should) – MUST respect that. Were I genuinely attacked, the whole “I’m humble, thank you, please teach me” stuff ends there.

She broke someone’s arm?!? Come on now. I know people that will cut her ego down with a baseball bat just for a six-pack of beer. She needs to realize this is real life, and to respect her students.

I’m a grown man, and if another grown man/woman attacks me, that’s the line, I’m out. You are not learning in a proper environment and your training will ultimately suffer no matter what.

Leave the dojo, any more banter on this topic is ridiculous.

Cheers,

Matthew D. Jordan

"Glacius-Vector"

http://madrant.com

drDalek
06-19-2003, 04:57 PM
this is perhaps more offensive than the PMS remarks.tell your friend some of us may have some "advice" for him.
Neither of us realy punch girls but if you are spoiling for a fight I'll tell my aunt.

Let me just remind you though that the brutal game of death they play in "The Running Man" with Ahnuld Swarchenegger(?) pales in comparison with womens hockey. :D

Janet Rosen
06-19-2003, 06:16 PM
I don't care in what country it occurs, or whether its in the context of religion, martial arts, or politics: when you have a group of people who abdicate personal responsibility to a leader who abuses them, and who ingratiate themselves to said leader by taking care of his/her needs, and who shut out and punish those who question it, you have by definition a cult.

If you wish to train in aikido, find a real aikido dojo.

deepsoup
06-19-2003, 06:48 PM
Neither of us realy punch girls but if you are spoiling for a fight I'll tell my aunt.
Mr Van Dyk,

The signal to noise ratio on this thread already isn't that great, so maybe you could just keep this kind of sexist tripe to yourself. Its offensive and its stupid.

Sean.

David Yap
06-19-2003, 09:24 PM
Dear all,

The reality in an aikido dojo or any martial art dojo for that matter is that there are people who continue to wear their ego despite attaining high dan grades.

I have seen an instructor putting a san-kyo lock on his student with one hand and then looked into the mirrors to adjust his hair while the student was tapping out in pain. I showed my disgust with feet. I walked out of the dojo and told myself never to train with this guy again.

IMO, the guy did not have the (aikido) skill to match his ego in the first place.

Regards

David

Edward
06-20-2003, 02:12 AM
Latest update:

I heard from second hand sources that the organization's position on this issue is that an aikido instructor can never be expected to apologize to a student. The instructor has been privately reprimanded, and that's it. If the student wishes to continue practicing, that's fine, but that's as far as the organization is willing to go.

Of course I repeat that this is second hand information and might not be very accurate.

Edward
06-20-2003, 02:20 AM
does she or the chief instructor know about this thread?
Probably not. Otherwise I would have certainly heard from them. I am aware of the risk I am taking with this thread, but I am hoping it might help to improve a rather sad situation.

PeterR
06-20-2003, 02:37 AM
I guess it all comes down to what the student expects and wants from training.

I would personally let the Chief Instructor know that the only real concern is continued harrasment concerning gradings and the like and then just continue training and avoid that person as much as possible.

And before anyone jumps down my back

Personally:

one person would not chase me out of an organizaiton.

if my only source of Aikido required some discomfort I would suffer a little bit rather than stop

and I would let the person know that if they pulled stuff like that on me again they would understand the true level of their Aikido.

DaveO
06-20-2003, 09:00 AM
Personally:

one person would not chase me out of an organizaiton.

if my only source of Aikido required some discomfort I would suffer a little bit rather than stop

and I would let the person know that if they pulled stuff like that on me again they would understand the true level of their Aikido.
I agree with Peter 100% on all these points; especially the last. Just to be clear; I don't believe in payback or vengeance; and I certainly have no illusions of my own skill in Aikido; but there is a line between agressive instruction (which I appreciate) and assault (which I don't). If that line is crossed; the person doing the crossing must be taught that doing so is wrong. If words suffice; well and good. If they do not however; stronger responses - whatever they may be - are not only justified; but can be considered morally right.

Peter Goldsbury
06-20-2003, 11:58 AM
I have followed the entire thread and also have had some private correspondence with Edward. The matter has already gone beyond this thread.

The reason why I have become involved is that I think Edward should not become a scapegoat for making public a problem which affects many dojos, namely the behaviour of senior students who appear to have a 'special' relationship with the shihan in the dojo/organization.

I have posted this to make clear to people who have participated in this thread that Edward has not been left to deal with the matter on his own. His organization is affiliated to the IAF and I for one take dojo violence (of the sort beyond merely 'severe' training) very seriously.

Best regards,

aikidoc
06-20-2003, 12:00 PM
Geez. My comments which were much less aggressive than what is being said about the sexists remarks were expunged earlier in this thread. It's starting to degenerate again.

Fact: abusive instructor that has assaulted more than one student, with an organization that ostensibly tolerates, condones, or encourages this person's behavior.

Solution: possibly legal but cultural difference may apply. Leave the place and find a dojo that teaches aikido not combat jiu jitsu.

Jim ashby
06-20-2003, 07:03 PM
Do anything in your power to get rid of this person. This person disgraces your Dojo, disgraces Aikido and, in my opinion, is a disgrace to martial arts. If you cannot get rid, then move yourself.

Have fun

jk
06-20-2003, 09:34 PM
Well, it's going to be pretty tough to find a face-saving way of removing said instructor from the dojo. At any rate, perhaps this abusive instructor should be encouraged to proselytize aikido among, say, Muay Thai practitioners? A whirlwind tour of Thai boxing camps may be just the thing for a little attitude adjustment.

Patrick in Bangkok
06-21-2003, 06:02 AM
I have been training in Aikido in Thailand since 1995 and hold the rank of shodan in the Aikido Association of Thailand. Over the years, I have been fortunate to have a close relationship with Shihan Fukakusa, senior instructors and students at the Renbukan dojo. In my view, the Aikido training in Thailand is great and the Aikido people here are among the friendliest and most generous that I have known.

While I was not present in the class during which the alleged incident in this thread occurred, I have independently talked with 5 people, who do not include the 2 people involved in the incident, who were present in the class and witnessed it. The witnesses include Thais, foreigners and Shihan Fukakusa (7th dan) who was teaching the class. According to the witnesses:

1.) The 2nd kyu male who was involved in the alleged incident is also the author who started this thread.

2.) The 4th dan female only struck the author with a shomenuchi strike which was called for in the technique. At no point did she otherwise punch or kick him.

3.) Rather, it is actually the author who assaulted the 4th dan female with punches to the mid-section and face, apparently with intent to cause harm, which was not called for in the suwari waza shomenuchi iriminage technique that as tori he was supposed to be performing.

4.) The author has used relative rank to confuse the issue. Rank is only important in Aikido. It is not important in fighting, particularly when it involves a man hitting a smaller and older woman.

5.) To add some perspective to this, the female 4th dan is less than 5 ft (150cm) tall, weighs less than 100 lbs (45kg), and is more than 10 years older than the author.

6.) Also note that the 4th dan female does a tremendous amount of work for the Aikido Association of Thailand. The author has done nothing productive for the Association, especially given the substantial amount of baseless bad-mouthing that he has done over this forum.

7.) Lastly, note that the subjects of this authors bad-mouthing, particularly the 4th dan female, are unlikely to respond to postings on this forum because they are not fluent in English.

Regarding other alleged misdeeds that the author has made in this thread:

1.) The Aikido instructors and students that I have talked to are not aware of anyone ever breaking an arm in the dojo.

2.) The Thai and Indian females, who the author alleges have stopped training due to being mistreated by the 4th dan female, are actually attending universities hundreds of miles away from Bangkok (one studies in Europe) where they now practice Aikido. When they are in Bangkok for school holidays, they attend the 4th dan females classes.

3.) The above Thai students brother, who the author also alleges has stopped training, does not attend practice regularly only because he is sitting for school exams.

Just because it appears on Aikiweb does not mean that it is so.

Enough.

aikidoc
06-21-2003, 11:49 AM
Patrick:

There are always two sides or perspectives to a story. Now, it sounds like the 2nd kyu has an agenda with the instructor. I was wondering when the second side would show itself.

I guess this is a good lesson for us all. Both sides should be given ample opportunity to state their points of view on such issues of accusations, negative press, and incidents as potentially negative as this one.

Perhaps this will die what appears to be an overdue death. I wonder now what the implications are for the 2nd kyu if in fact he is the author.

Chuck Clark
06-21-2003, 01:57 PM
Edward,

You've always had strong comments and opinions expressed on Aiki-Web ...

What is your answer to Mr. Holert's post? If it is true, then I think you had a lot of folks really going and as far as I'm concerned, you've really "stepped in it."

I think, as John Riggs said above that this should be a good lesson for us all.

Edward
06-21-2003, 06:33 PM
Thanks a lot Patrick! That's all what I can say. Talking about back stabbing....

I will reply to Patrick's post point by point, but I am not going to get involved in an exchange of accusations and counter accustaions, so this will be my last post in this thread.

1. True, I am the person in question.

2. Not true. She attacked with a shomen Uchi, I did a Suwari Irimi nage as required. She stood up and attacked me while I was still sitting. I just protected my face for a few seconds from her blows, then managed to throw her in a kokyu nage. We were immediately separated therafter.

3. Not only this is not true, it is also very ridiculous. I was in a Suwari position, being attacked from a standing position by a lady. Just to imply that I attacked a lady in this way is a big insult to my honour and dignity.

4. Again. See no. 3.

5. True. Which gives you an idea about this lady who is 47 years old, is a 4th dan instructor, and is still capable of doing such stuff as mentioned above.

6. Correct. She has helped a lot in the organization. She also has cast me out in the last 2 years and did not allow me to participate and contribute to anything in the organization.

7. True.

As for the 3 last points, I know and Patrick knows that what he claims is absolutely not true.

This said, I cannot describe to you my disappointment with Patrick's post, in which he calls me a lyier, and twists the truth upside down in a way that I become the guilty one instead of being the victim.

Not only that, but knowing that Patrick practices only once a week at a different dojo, I am surprised where did he get his information from. Knowing that Patrick usually writes my teacher's correspondence in english, since he himself is not capable of that, I have reasons to believe that the above post mirrors Fukakusa sensei's position on this issue. I can only consider the whole matter with dismay, and disbelief, that my teacher is turning this issue against me, instead of dealing with the cause of the problem.

Last point. Aikido is not that important to me. Having seen how ugly it can get, I would rather stop my training altogether. I am a respectable expat with a very good creative position in one of the biggest jewelry companies in Thailand. I really have neither the time nor the energy for this nonsense.

Thanks and goodbye.

aikidoc
06-21-2003, 09:17 PM
This post needs to die a fast death.

We now have two very different perspectives on the events portrayed. One by the person there who disquised himself throughout the thread instead of coming clean with the posters and two, someone reportedly researching the information who was not there to witness the event.

Who can tell what the truth about the issue is and at this point having been mislead throughout the thread I think most feel who cares. Let the parties sort it out and let this die without further misdirection and misrepresentation.

Edward
06-21-2003, 09:45 PM
I also believe that this thread went too far.

Please accept the following as the conclusion and I would appreciate it, if this thread would just be forgotten.

It takes 2 persons to make an accident. I believe I myself am largely to blame for what happened. My arrogance and lack of consideration surely played a role in provoking the unfortunate incident.

I consequently said too many stupid things on the web, blinded by my anger.

I know it is too late for this now, but just for the record, I would like to apologize sincerely to my teachers, 4th dan instructor and my dojo for all the stupid things I have said. I do not expect to be forgiven but this is something I should do for my own self esteem.

I also apologize to the members of this forum for a thread which was absolutely not appropriate, sorry guys.

Goodbye.

akiy
06-21-2003, 11:15 PM
This thread is now closed.

-- Jun