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Thor's Hammer
05-28-2003, 05:29 PM
O'Sensei hit people. At most dojos people either ignore atemi or pull it back before it hits someone. Is there anywhere were atemi is used consistently in class? I've never been taught to punch except for tsuki!

Peter Klein
05-29-2003, 07:48 AM
in my dojo in later stages in aikido they do an addition art that shows joint locks against aikido joint locks and emphazises in kicks and punches.

opherdonchin
05-29-2003, 08:12 AM
There is a lot of atemi in our dojo, although people only rarely actually get hit. We are careful with beginers and by the time that people are 3rd kyu, they are rarely still there to get hit.

Chuck Clark
05-29-2003, 09:45 AM
Lots of atemi in the Jiyushinkan. As others have said though, people quickly get the idea that it's better to move and take balance, etc. than to get hit. You must learn to fit to your uke in such ways that there are no openings for them to take.

aikidoc
05-29-2003, 10:05 AM
I focus a lot of attention on the use of atemi and the openings (suki). We don't actually hit each other very often since strikes to vital points and nerves is potentially devastating.

George S. Ledyard
05-29-2003, 11:23 AM
I am sure that my neighbors in the Aikido community would consider us an "atemi dojo". We place a strong emphasis on students being able to strike effectively as ukes as well as the principle that atemi is integral to all Aikido technique.

Daniel Blanco
05-29-2003, 01:17 PM
I THINK ATEMI SHOULD BE TAUGHT FROM THE BEGINNING, IT SHOWS YOU HOW TO REACT AT MY SCHOOL IT IS TAUGHT IN THE BEGINNING, AND AS THE STUDENT ADVANCES MORE ATTENTION ON ATEMI IS PLACED ON THE STUDENT, BY THE INSTRUCTORS/ AND ALSO ON STUDENTS UKEMI DEVELOPEMENT.

Josh Manning
05-29-2003, 10:05 PM
I absolutely agree with atemi being used in a committed fashion, but my sensei teaches that atemi is for positioning of Uke's mind or body, not to damage him. In this way, being able to punch and kick is kind of non factor. As a question to those with more experience, is it possible to simultaneously harmonize with and intentionally injure an opponent?

PeterR
05-29-2003, 11:16 PM
is it possible to simultaneously harmonize with and intentionally injure an opponent?
Of course it is - the idea of Aiki or "harmonizing energy" is reading, adapting to and utilizing the energy of your opponent. Yes harmony can refer to peace, love and happiness - it really matters on how you choose to translate and emphasize.

My favourite description of Aiki is two master swordsman facing each other, absolutely still, waiting for an opening. They are in perfect harmony even though a failure on one side will result in blood, death and decapitation.

To bring up the old cliche - harmony in Japan also means beating down the nail that sticks up.

I think translating ai into harmony is cumbersome - although I can't think of a better term.

Bronson
05-30-2003, 12:42 AM
is it possible to simultaneously harmonize with and intentionally injure an opponent?

One of the things that we strive for in seidokan is "the proper usage of ki". My understanding of that at this point in my training, is to take the correct action at the correct time. So if popping the guy in the nose or tweaking his elbow was neccassary at the time then yes it was done with harmonization....not sure if all of my instructors would agree with me though :D

Bronson

jxa127
05-30-2003, 08:09 AM
I absolutely agree with atemi being used in a committed fashion, but my sensei teaches that atemi is for positioning of Uke's mind or body, not to damage him.
Here's a twist on that. I've been taught that atemi is a fantastic way to position nage's mind and body. We should be able to apply atemi at various points during a technique, and do it in such a way that nage can land a blow, but uke can't. That ensures propoer body positioning between uke and nage.
In this way, being able to punch and kick is kind of non factor. As a question to those with more experience, is it possible to simultaneously harmonize with and intentionally injure an opponent?
There are some excellent answers to this above, so I'll just add one thing. There are lots of different ways to use strikes. Some can be very devastating. Some can disrupt the technique. But, there are strikes that we can use while doing techniques that don't break them up or disrupt the flow. With these, it is possible to simultaneously "harmonize" and injure.

A quick example would be for some of the irimi or kokyo nage we do. We often draw uke's head to our shoulder as we tenkan. A good strike to use at this point involves popping uke's temple with the shoulder during that draw. Some of our techniques can also be finished with a strike to the throat, or some other vulnerable area, as part of the throw.

Ethically, you'll have to judge for yourself whether or not to injure your opponent (more than would normally happen from the throw, anyway) should you ever have to use your training outside the dojo. The one time I've had to use my training, I did not use atemi, and I actually cushioned the other person's fall -- right before pinning him with my body weight.

Still, I'd rather know how to cause injury and choose not to than not know how and need to.

Regards,

-Drew

Ron Tisdale
05-30-2003, 08:27 AM
right before pinning him with my body weight.
OUCH!

:)

RT

TomanGaidin
05-30-2003, 08:56 AM
We intersperse a few techniques with atemi in our dojo - either entering with one to place uke further off balance or mid-technique to partially 'distract' uke, not to mention taking them even further off balance. There are also some with 'finishing moves', i.e shihonage, with a final strike to the face.

We don't actually make contact during training, of course, but intent behind the atemi still needs to exist - else uke simply won't bat an eyelid.

jxa127
05-30-2003, 08:57 AM
Ron,

You can be darned sure he didn't move -- at all-- until he was calmed down. ;)

How much, and it what way, do you guys use atemi at your dojo?

Regards,

-Drew

Don_Modesto
05-30-2003, 12:05 PM
How much, and it what way, do you guys use atemi at your dojo?
Upon entering, turning, swinging UKE around, when UKE regains balance, when I need to be where he/she still is, and sometimes to loosen up a curled arm when UKE tightens up during the pin.

My ATEMI tend not toward the graceful little "push away the gnats" style. More and more I find myself doing one of those crude knee thrusts into the groin or over-the-top elbow smashes to get UKE into a sprawl or slowed down. I'm just too suspicious of the real effect of even punching someone determined to hurt me. I think ATEMI is an area of great potential complacency in aikido and I know that I myself would be willing to take a good punch on the cheek or forehead in order to maintain or get a good position.

Ron Tisdale
05-30-2003, 12:20 PM
Hi Drew,

I'd say there is a wide range of atemi. If you look at the yoshinkan training manual by Inoue Sensei, or any of Shioda Kancho's books, you'll see a good sampling. Yoshinkan's 150 basic techniques contain a good sample. Atemi that fit the metsubishi (sp) idea (smash the eyes), atemi to the short ribs, atemi to the point between the nose and upper lip, atemi with special hand configurations for certain targets...the whole ball of wax. Sometimes (not in standard technique) you'll see elbows and knees (great for kaitenage), fumikomi, and things like that. I tend to use a fair amount of focus and seriousness...most people will react, even though they know I won't intentionally klonk them. There are those though that have to be taught to pay attention (like myself, in fact, as I mentioned in another post).

Ron

Vincent Munoz
09-01-2003, 04:46 PM
Sempai,

I respect ur principle in aikido. just a piece of advice, make sure that when you make the atemi, the fluidity of ki is not STOP. because that ki(force) is suppose to be the thing we use to deflict our aggressors. if its stop, then they'll become very heavy and difficult to lead. when you do a technique, theres should be a continuous flow of ki. atemi is usually used if or when the aggressors establish a holding attack. if there's ki, u dont need an atemi to throw the uke.

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.

shiete

Kensai
09-02-2003, 04:37 AM
I agree with Vincent.

I've been reading Remembering O Sensei by Susan Perry, in there it quotes that O Sensei would disapprove of those that practiced his pre WW2 stuff on the mat. He said that he didnt spend years training and developing Aiki budo into Aikido for nothing.

Minimum effort, maximum efficientcy, if you can throw Uke "sincerily" without atemi, then you dont need it. Unless ofcourse you like using it :D

Alec Corper
09-02-2003, 05:06 AM
Atemi is vital. If you don't practise it, you do not have the option to use it, if neccessary. Most kuzushi occurs through correct mai and tai sabaki, but it also requires a dedicated attack from uke. However, in many dojos a dedicated attack means one blow only, try training with somebody who continues to try to attack, even after kuzushi. Sometimes this is in tori's favour and you can just lead them where you intend them to go, sometimes you must use atemi to distub their centre far more in order to do anything at all.

Forgive me for not remembering who said this, either Chuck Hooker or George Ledyard, my apologies gentleman if the quote is inaccurate, "Attack the body to control the mind, attack the mind to control the body" Beautiful. Atemi is an integral part of Aikido but simply adding a smattering of bad karate is worse than nothing, it needs to be an integrated part of your body movement and extension so as not to disturb your own flow of energy. One final point, if you hit a person in the face it is likely that they will fall away from you which can make it difficult to execute many osae waza, likewise if you hit aperson under the floating ribs, their hips swing away whilst their head comes straight at you Before we argue, let me add not evryone all of the time.) My point is that if you never hit uke, even gently, they don't know what it feels like and you have noi actual idea what it will do to their body position or which atemi fit with which techniques.

Just my two Eurocents worth, Alec

Ron Tisdale
09-02-2003, 09:24 AM
Hi Vincent,

Try not to think of it as right or wrong, just different perspectives. One of the reasons I like the yoshinkan basic techniques is because they focus on showing proper movement and timing. The different atemi are used in different situations **so that they don't** interupt the flow of the technique. I suggest you take a look at some of the writings that come out of the yoshinkan before you start handing out advice. You might be surprised..

Hi Chris,

Well, Susan Perry would not be high on my list of people to go to for input. As far as what Ueshiba would or wouldn't like I can't say, and neither (unfortunately) can he. So I'll go with my teachers, and their teachers. Since there is a 7th dan and Gozo Shioda in that tradition, that'll have to do. You, of course, are welcome to your own traditions...my advice would be to follow those traditions, without denigrating those who have a different background.

Personally, I've found a lot of knowledge from the ki society people I've interacted with.

Ron Tisdale

C. Emerson
09-02-2003, 09:53 AM
In Hapkido using (atemi) striking is the rule not the exception. We find it easier to ensure the success of the techniques we are employing. It is common to find us using atemi before and definetly after the technique when the opponent is pinned or locked or what ever the finishing technique is.

-Chad

Chuck Clark
09-02-2003, 11:26 AM
Atemi is vital.

Forgive me for not remembering who said this, either Chuck Hooker or George Ledyard, my apologies gentleman if the quote is inaccurate, "Attack the body to control the mind, attack the mind to control the body" Beautiful. Atemi is an integral part of Aikido but simply adding a smattering of bad karate is worse than nothing, it needs to be an integrated part of your body movement and extension so as not to disturb your own flow of energy. Alec
Good stuff in this post, Alec.

And I might add that all three of us appreciate your quote above. The three of us have said it many times.

One point, most of you are thinkin of atemi in it's smaller view of "hitting" with the fist, elbow, etc. Atemi can be done with your whole body, your metsuke (eyes), a cutting intent with your focused intent in a kokyu ryoku movement. Expand your experience and see where it leads. Aikido practice is an experiment in the dojo laboratory.

Cheers,

Alec Corper
09-02-2003, 12:08 PM
To Senseis Clark, Hooker, and Ledyard,

If it wasn't for the fact that I have met all three of you briefly last year at the expo, I probably would think that these are just aliases. My apologies and respect to all three of you from both of me!

regards, Alec