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Peter Klein
05-05-2003, 02:46 PM
what are the certan characteristics of yoshinkan aikido that differ from aikikai. do u have to be stronger. are the useless nage forms like tenchi nage removed? etc... pls answer me thank you :)

mj
05-05-2003, 02:51 PM
Why not try it and find out?

You could mention to the sensei which techniques are useless as they show them. It would save some time :)

erikmenzel
05-05-2003, 03:03 PM
useless nage forms like tenchi nage
Ok I'll bite.

What is so useless about Tenchi Nage?:confused: :confused:

Nacho_mx
05-05-2003, 03:03 PM
Peter, you are not skilled/experienced enough to judge the value of a particular form or technique, you´d be surprised how powerful tenchinage can be.

Peter Klein
05-05-2003, 03:39 PM
there is no yoshinkan dojo in the city i live. o.k sorry about the tenchi nage part i am not worthy of saying something like that cause I am not skilled enough.

Peter Klein
05-05-2003, 03:47 PM
man i really am in love with yoshinkan aikido i want to do it damn. :-(

Steven
05-05-2003, 03:56 PM
Peter,

I do not know where you are, but here is the information I have on schools in Germany. I would recommend visiting one of them to find the answers you are seeking.

-----

1.

Aikido International

Instructor(s): Ricardo Stange del Carpio

Schleißheimerstr. 22

D - 80333 München Germany

Phone: +49(089)527567

Email: Aikido International (English,German)

http://www.aikido-international.de/ - German

2.

Aikido Wurzburg eV

Instructor(s): Ralf Siebenmark

Sedanstr. 25

D-97082 Wurzburg, Germany

Phone: +49(931)281387

http://www.aikido-wuerzburg.de/ - German

3.

Aikido Yoshinkan eV (IYAF)

Instructor(s): Hiromichi Nagano

Auenstr. 19

D-80469 Munich, Germany

Phone: +49(89)2012290

http://www.aikido-yoshinkai.de/ - German

4.

Kobukan Dojo

Instructor(s): Wolfgang Spielvogel

Hiltenspergerstr. 9;

Munich, Germany 80798

Phone: +49-89-30779806

http://www.kobukan.com/ - German

.. Steven Miranda ..

Peter Klein
05-05-2003, 04:30 PM
thank you very much my friend, but they are 600 kilometers where I live, but I wont give up seeking pheraps I can find a high grade who lives in germany.

Steven
05-05-2003, 05:43 PM
Peter,

Good luck in your search. Please do contact the dojo to see if they do have someone in your area. If not, you can always move here to Sacramento and train with us.

:D

George S. Ledyard
05-05-2003, 06:01 PM
what are the certan characteristics of yoshinkan aikido that differ from aikikai. do u have to be stronger. are the useless nage forms like tenchi nage removed? etc... pls answer me thank you :)
You should be careful about such statements... I'll bet you think that tenchi nage requires a ryote tori attack... how about from a middle punch or front kick? Look at tenchi nage not just as a technique to split nage's physical energy but also as a way to split his attention. It is anything but a "useless" technique.

Steven
05-05-2003, 06:29 PM
Re: Tenchi-nage....

It IS NOT removed from the Yoshinkan and in fact, is part of our kihon waza (150 basic techniques).

pointy
05-05-2003, 11:59 PM
You should be careful about such statements... I'll bet you think that tenchi nage requires a ryote tori attack... how about from a middle punch or front kick?
Mr Ledyard,

what an awesome idea. i have no clue how you would go about doing that tho. I'm going to ask my sensei if we can work on that.

until then, how would one go about doing tenchi nage from a straight middle punch or kick like that?

thanks!

evan

creinig
05-06-2003, 04:49 AM
thank you very much my friend, but they are 600 kilometers where I live, but I wont give up seeking pheraps I can find a high grade who lives in germany.
There's also a group in Trier - no website yet, but email contact via webmaster@aikido-trier.de should work. There's also at least one in the netherlands, but unfortunately I don't have any adress at hand :( The folks at the main Munich dojo will know it though.

Additionally, this year's European Yoshinkan seminar is in Trier, 25th - 27th of July. Might be a good way to get to know the style :)

Peter Klein
05-06-2003, 06:04 AM
yeah thank you i have been doing aikikai since september now, do u have to be a certan grade to take part in the seminar?

sanosuke
05-06-2003, 06:58 AM
try to see the books or the videos first. I think books like "Total Aikido" and "Dynamic Aikido" reveals enough differences between yoshinkan and aikikai.

creinig
05-06-2003, 07:06 AM
yeah thank you i have been doing aikikai since september now, do u have to be a certan grade to take part in the seminar?
Nope. Just show up with an open mind and a desire to learn and you'll have an enjoyable experience :)

Alec Corper
05-06-2003, 07:56 AM
Tenchinage useless? What kind of Aikido are ou doing? Oh, you've been training since September and you've already discovered that the art that has been practised since before you were born is a non-effective practise. Please lets not descend into the idea that yoshinkan is "real" Aikido and aikikai isn't. Wht don't you ask your sensei for the practical applications of Tenshinage, and try to understand Ledyard Sensei's comments.

If you feel that you are wasting your time in your dojo find another one, but please try to refrain from such definitive comments based on such little experience. regards, Alec

Kensai
05-06-2003, 08:51 AM
You've gotta watch for these brutal Yoshinkan types..... lol!

I have Total Aikido and Dynamic Aikido and it really "looks" no different to the Aikido I study.

Oh and Tenchi nage is great, especially the Irimi version. :)

Ron Tisdale
05-06-2003, 08:57 AM
Hi all,

Steven, I still remember a tenshinage that Chida Sensei taught at the last clinic of his I attended. Instead of entering, he used breath power to suck uke into tenshinage...his body pretty much didn't move, but suddenly your feet were in the air, and your head headed toward the mat. Talk about kool...

Ron

Steven
05-06-2003, 10:34 AM
Hi Ron,

I've been on the receiving end of that by both Parker Sensei and Yamashita Sensei. It's a heck of a ride. The unification of your body and the mat is a memorable experience too.

:D

Dave Miller
05-06-2003, 05:29 PM
useless nage forms like tenchi nage:confused: Dang! I don't want to talk about how many times I've been put on the mat by that "useless" technique. It's also the "goto" technique" for the "bully has you pinned against your locker" situation.

I'm sorry you find it so useless. I suggest that you work on it and see how useful it can be.

Peter Klein
05-07-2003, 06:34 AM
well its like hugging actually. u had the end of the arm from the uke and go with your other arm over his neck as if you where trying to reach your other arm just like hugging him. i am really suprised that you find a form that is very similar to hugging effective. or is my dojo doing bullshit? and tenchi nage is really different?

rachmass
05-07-2003, 07:12 AM
Hello Peter,

Tenshi nage is a beautiful technique that works really well if you do it right. It takes no muscle, and works if you are tall or short (or somewhere in between). Perhaps you are just having trouble with this technique, and that if you continue to work on it, you will get it.

Both aikikai and yoshinkai are very valid forms of aikido. Just depends on what your particular bent is on which you prefer. There are many other styles out there that are just as valid, all of which could appeal to you more. Maybe it is the dojo you are in more than the particular style? I started my training in a ki society style dojo, and moved to aikikai after 8 plus years. It wasn't that I thought the ki style wasn't effective, it is just that I found I had more affinity for the aikikai style.

Good luck on this,

Rachel

Peter Klein
05-07-2003, 09:00 AM
well my reall problem is that i think the style i do in my dojo isnt effective. i think they have put loads of destructivness out of the art and just made it really soft. please understand me people i dont want to be going to a dojo for 10 years and then notice i was doing 10 years of sh*t. pheraps i should check lots of dojos?

rachmass
05-07-2003, 09:11 AM
Peter, if you have a lot of options in your area, then it is wise to go and check out a variety of dojos. You will quickly get a feel for what suits you personally. Everybody is different, and what appeals to one, doesn't necessarily appeal to another.

That said, I am in Yoshinkan mecca, but it doesn't appeal to me. When I started there was only Yoshinkan and Ki Society. When an Aikikai dojo opened in the area, I was there in a heartbeat. As I said, we are all different, and what suits me won't necessarily suit you. Check em' out, and decide for yourself what "feels right".

Dave Miller
05-07-2003, 09:32 AM
well my reall problem is that i think the style i do in my dojo isnt effective. i think they have put loads of destructivness out of the art and just made it really soft.Having seen video of Ueshibo demonstrating and having heard and read some of his sayings and philosophy of martial arts, I would say that any "destructiveness" in the art was added after Ueshibo. He seemed to me to be all about softness, calling Aikido an act of love.

No offense, Peter, but I wonder if you haven't developed an impression of what Aikido "ought to be" that isn't historically accurate.

Just a thought.

Kensai
05-07-2003, 10:08 AM
Hey Peter,

Although the way you put across your point is a little unpleasant, I completely understand what you mean. I also had this impression of my school for a long time. I thought all I was learning was dancing and nothing more.

I couldn't have been more wrong.

If your primary motive for studying Martial Arts is fighting and Self Defence, Aikido is not for you. When I started Aikido I had the same reasoning, however, as my ideas have matured I study Aikido for myself, its about no one else.

I have found the softer my technique the more and more amazingly powerful it becomes. Anyone that does not appreciate the power of softness has not experienced.

I am sure that lots of people have told you stories of Ki and Aikido, well, here's mine.

Yesterday I was practicing 4th form (single hand hold to the chest) and Sensei walked up to me, and took the position of Uke. And I tried to go physical with her, and I am 13 stone and pretty fit, her hand was going no where. Then I just relaxed and turned my one point, and it worked.

Softness is the essence of Aikido, without it, it is no longer Aikido. I would imagin the Tomiki guys would say the same. I know the better Judo guys in my club are the ones with the lighter touchs.

Aikido is not a science, (although it is founded on solid scientific facts) its about faith too.

Regards,

Dave Miller
05-07-2003, 10:13 AM
Softness is the essence of Aikido, without it, it is no longer Aikido. I would imagin the Tomiki guys would say the same.This one would. In fact, that's the point of my signature.

;)

Hanna B
05-07-2003, 10:32 AM
well my reall problem is that i think the style i do in my dojo isnt effective. i think they have put loads of destructivness out of the art and just made it really soft. please understand me people i dont want to be going to a dojo for 10 years and then notice i was doing 10 years of sh*t. pheraps i should check lots of dojos?If you are not happy where you are, it sounds like a good idea. However, before making such statements about my current dojo I would remove my dojo's name from my profile... and frankly speaking, I would hesitate to post it under my true name.

Best regards,

Hanna

rachmass
05-07-2003, 10:35 AM
Hannah is right; these words we write live on well into the future.

Hanna B
05-07-2003, 10:39 AM
well its like hugging actually. u had the end of the arm from the uke and go with your other arm over his neck as if you where trying to reach your other arm just like hugging him. i am really suprised that you find a form that is very similar to hugging effective. or is my dojo doing bullshit? and tenchi nage is really different?The way you do the techniques the first year or more, it will not "work"... All other belief is illusion.

I suggest you ask your instructor about this after class. If he/she can not give an answer you are satisfied with, follow your heart - you will obviously not be happy where you are.

ian
05-07-2003, 11:05 AM
Yeh, many techniques that you think are useful at the beginning later seem by far the best. nikkyo, sankyo etc seem very effective because they cause pain, but when you understand body movement (and when you do mutliple attack!) you understand they are limited.

Tenchi-nage I would say is more effective than any other technique I know. It only comes after ikkyo in importance as a technique because ikkyo is one of those techniques that can spring out of just about anywhere.

I'm not very pro-Yoshinkan but I think they have a fantastic teaching method which allows quick advancement in the early stages and focusses on real progression and basic functionality behind techniques.

Peter Klein
05-07-2003, 01:18 PM
o.k my dojo is great and the teacher is great :D

Nathan Pereira
05-08-2003, 02:47 AM
Have to respectfully disagree with Ian about the initial progress in Yoshinkan being quick. It is quite the opposite which why we are such a small group outside of Japan. It is almost anal about the very basics and until you get these expect to be training for a while before even attempting a technique. I know of many people that changed "styles" because of this saying that couldn,t wait that long.

Peter K as for wanting to do Yoshinkan without trying it well as an 11year practicioner the best Aikido I have seen has been Yoshinkan and the worst Aikido I have seen has been Yoshinkan [well nearly the worst]. I do Yoshinkan because the best teachers that I saw at the time happened to be doing Yoshinkan and I preferred the teaching method but I have also trained with a exceptional teacher from the Aikikai who I would put above a lot of Yoshinkan people I know. Style is irrelevant, always always choose the teacher.

One thing I will say I have found from reading these forums that does vastly differ is Ki is almost never mentioned [i have heard it twice] and the philosophical side is never mentioned either.It is just training. As simple as that. I get the impression that that side is left for the student to follow their own path on a peaceful approach or not. The physical training is paramount. This is not a citicism as I beleive Aikido can be all things to all men and you can take from it what you like. Certainly Shioda Sensei never followed O'Sensei's philosophies but tried to remain true to the physical training he experienced. This doesn't mean we are thugs though i have heard that whispered at BAB meetings its just thats not an issue. Its a bit like the army taking in no hopers and turning out good civilians type of thinking. You learn [the hard way]or you leave. Twiggers book AWP I think highlights this approach very well. Its not for everybody but then why should any one way be.

zachbiesanz
05-08-2003, 10:08 AM
Speaking of yoshinkan, I just got back froma clinic with Parker sensei. He's very nice and very good, but I didn't really care for a lot of the elbow-based pins he showed. All weekend I thought "holy crap, [my partner]'s going to get excited or distracted and SNAP!" Luckily, that didn't happen. It seems to me that Yoshinkan can be pretty rough sometimes, but at the last clinic Parker sensei taught around here, I got to take ukemi for him for a variety of techniques in which I ended up on the floor with no pain and no idea how i got there so fast.

In my experience, different styles of aikido are different TEACHING styles, and they all end up pretty much the same: with subtle, flowing movements.

Michael Neal
05-08-2003, 12:04 PM
How dare you guys talk about Yoshinkan Aikido in a thread named "yoshinkan." Just a flashback to Bruce Baker never mind me.

Ron Tisdale
05-08-2003, 12:22 PM
:)

Steven
05-08-2003, 05:33 PM
I didn't really care for a lot of the elbow-based pins he showed.
Were they the variety where the elbow is off the mat?!? I love those and in 20 years, have never seen anyone injured. Parker Sensei teaches those to us as well, but only after he's convinced you can do basic and/or have good control.
To me that Yoshinkan can be pretty rough sometimes,
I've been non-Yoshinkan schools and thought the same thing. I think it's really up the instructor and the student.
I got to take ukemi for him for a variety of techniques in which I ended up on the floor with no pain and no idea how i got there so fast.
Now I'm completely in touch with this reality. Can't wait till he is here in September. Did I mention he's coming here in September?!?

YO! 6 days of Parker Sensei in Sacramento. Don't miss out!
In my experience, different styles of aikido are different TEACHING styles, and they all end up pretty much the same: with subtle, flowing movements.
Amen brother Zach!

Charles Hill
05-11-2003, 06:15 PM
I think it is impossible to compare Yoshinkan and Aikikai. Yoshinkan is a style based on an individual while Aikikai is a kind of loose conglomeration of styles. I think it would be more fruitful to compare various teachers. How does Arikawa Sensei's Aikido similar to or different from Shioda Sensei's, for example.

I often hear about Aikikai Aikido as a style, but what does that mean? In the U.S. alone, Chiba Sensei and Yamada Sensei are quite different

Interestingly enough, at the Aikikai Honbu, the Shihan in their 50's or younger do share a common style, especially in terms of ukemi. They are teaching more and more, so one day, one might be able to point out Aikikai Honbu as a style. But, who knows?

George S. Ledyard
05-12-2003, 11:33 AM
Have to respectfully disagree with Ian about the initial progress in Yoshinkan being quick. It is quite the opposite which why we are such a small group outside of Japan. It is almost anal about the very basics and until you get these expect to be training for a while before even attempting a technique. I know of many people that changed "styles" because of this saying that couldn,t wait that long.
I would have to disagree with your disagreement. More than any other style of Aikido, the Yoshinkan style has been associated with training for institutional personnel like the Tokyo Police, military personnel etc. The training method they have was developed specifically so that large groups of students could be taken to some level of functionality in a relatively short period of time. One of my own teachers, Ellis Amdur Sensei, commented to me that he had visited a yoshinkan dojo on a couple of occasions and had been impressed with how quickly their beginner's had learned the basics under this syetm of instruction.

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2003, 01:32 PM
Frankly, it was the only way a klutz like me ever got even a hint of a clue...without the basic movements, I was lost (as far as aikido techniques). I bet a reasonably athletic person could be taught a fairly devestating technique that they could probably use in about two hours --

Basic movements:

shuffle step in body change/180 degree pivot

open step

xstep in body change

Technique: katate mochi shomen tsuki ich/ni

Would they get all the finer points? nope. But I bet you could teach them how to pull it off pretty darn consistantly.

Ron Tisdale

Nathan Pereira
05-13-2003, 03:22 AM
GSL,

I have to disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement.

No I don't really , I sort get what you mean. I think what you say is correct but I think in the very early stages i.e. 6 months that especially to the outsider that the Yoshinkan practioner is very rigid and moves very step by step with no flow ,that distinguishes most Aikido. In the slightlty longer term you are correct in that I believe the benefits of drilling in basics begin to pay off as there is a strong under lying base and posture. As Ron says it suits me but some just don't like it.

N

PeterR
05-13-2003, 04:00 AM
I think what you say is correct but I think in the very early stages i.e. 6 months that especially to the outsider that the Yoshinkan practioner is very rigid and moves very step by step with no flow ,that distinguishes most Aikido.
:D

Name me any Aikido style where a six months beginner is moving with an semblance of fluidity and grace.

I suppose you could get me to agree that you could tell a six month student of Yoshinkan, from Shodokan, from name your style but I don't even consider Shodan (or Nidan) as a benchmark of what a particular style offers.

That said - I think a style that has a strong technical base can develope a more effective Aikido far faster than one which emphasizes flow over precision.

Would train in Yoshinkan is my style was not available.

Nathan Pereira
05-13-2003, 04:45 AM
Its not that they are fluid and graceful its just less, how shall I say, less rigid and robotic than a 6 mth Yoshi. Even if there is no substance to the technique it can look to the outsider as if they actually know what they are doing. All things being reletive to the level a person who has only been training 6 mths should look its not like the Frankenstein's monsters we have in our club or that I once was.

PeterR
05-13-2003, 05:19 AM
Even if there is no substance to the technique it can look to the outsider as if they actually know what they are doing. All things being reletive to the level a person who has only been training 6 mths should look its not like the Frankenstein's monsters we have in our club or that I once was.
Sort of the crux of the matter - what an outsider thinks has no relevance ESPECIALLY if there is no substance.

And really if you are no longer a Frankenstein monster it can't be that detrimental.

Not really qualified to comment on the Yoshinkan training method but rather how important a good technical base is to eventually delivering good Aikido. I think it is even if it means something a little less pretty for a little longer.

Nathan Pereira
05-13-2003, 06:46 AM
rather how important a good technical base is to eventually delivering good Aikido. I think it is even if it means something a little less pretty for a little longer.

Well Peter you won't get any arguement from me here.

I believe that this thread started because of a non-yoshinkan persons perception. I believe that one of the problems is not so much with the style but how it is perceived as to how prevelant it is. I think your 'style' probably has as many misconceptions attached too. To be honest this board is the first place that I have heard positive things about Yoshinkan. On more than one occassion I have been told by high ranking teachers from other styles that I didn't even do Aikido. Either that or that we are Aiki thugs. My point being that the outside perception dictates whether you have enough interest to run a dojo. I am lucky to be part of a successful dojo but from the Aikikai dojos I have attended we are not even a third as big. So as you say because it doesn't look pretty for longer time people give too easily.



I have moved from a Frankenstein now but it does take long time as the flowing stuff comes much much later but as you say when it does you truely appreciate the grounding in basics as your Jiyu waza is much more sharp and solid.

N

ps. Thanks for the posts as I'm really enjoying this discussion.

Steven
05-13-2003, 11:10 AM
I think the topic of this thread is a bit misleading. It has certainly turned into a nice conversation, however was started because the author is under the impression that tenchi-nage is a worthless technique and that somehow, Yoshinkan was the answer.

I responded that tenchi-nage is very much a part of Yoshinkan and would like to get back on this topic, if even for a brief moment in time. (Happy Mr. Tisdale? :D)

Ron and I have been sharing some thoughts on this privately, mainly because I didn't understand his recent post where he describes a technique. He clarified and what we found is that the basic movements in tenchi-nage, tai sabaki or Tai no Henko ichi and Ni as we say in Yoshinkan, in theory and in principle are no different than any other school of Aikido.

In 20 years, I’ve been to a host of Aikido schools around the U.S and Canada and have yet to find one where the principles of tenchi-nage were different. What is different is how each of the schools (organizations) taught this basic movement. In application, some were flowery and sweat, ahhhhhhhh, now nice - yet others were in your face and earth shattering. However the basic movement was still the same.

Ryote-mochi, tenchi-nage ichi and ni (ura and omote (I think) for our Aikikai brothers and sisters) is merely the technique we use to teach the principles of the body movement which when done correct, should effectively off balance your opponent with the first movement. However we are not limited to just this particular attack as George Ledyard eluted to. Ron described a variation of this body movement from a straight wrist grasp (katate mochi as we call it). In his application, the body movement is the same, and the free hand still move in the direction of heaven, however in his application, it goes to uke’s chin. Same EXACT body movement.

At my dojo, we have at least 4 basic variations from this one attack. They include the free hand doing nothing at all, going to the elbow, the shoulder and the head/chin. The basic body movement is the same. We will also use the free hand to apply atemi to various parts of the body, like the groin. Then you can add shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, shomen tsuki, hiji mochi and a whole host of various attacks. The basic movement does not change.

Parker Sensei, as well as just about every senior instructor I’ve ever had the pleasure of training with both inside and out of Yoshinkan teaches that advanced and “STREET” techniques comes from the basics. Without the basics, all bets are off.

So to say that tenchi-nage is a useless technique in my opinion is simply a sign that either the teacher or student (or both) are clueless. I’ll leave it up to the rest of you to decide what those principles are. It’ll be interesting see how many of us agree and disagree as to what they are.

George S. Ledyard
05-13-2003, 11:27 AM
:D

Name me any Aikido style where a six months beginner is moving with an semblance of fluidity and grace.
Actually, I regularly get to see people flowing around the mat quite nicely after six months or so. There's just no content. Flow yes, power, intensity, intention, no.

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2003, 02:49 PM
Nice post Steven...you beat me to it (and did it better as well!). I got distracted by this work thing...

Ron (and posting on two other boards) Tisdale