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View Full Version : Tenkan works. yes, yes it does.


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jaxonbrown
05-05-2003, 08:52 AM
I've trained in aikido for about a year.
I was walking my 5lb dog last night. A neighbor across the way who is a slight woman started walking her great dane. The great dane saw my 5lb dog and pulled away from the woman (pulling her to the ground too) in his excitement to either eat my dog or just play around. I picked up my dog and turned to run away (like a fool, in hindsight i wondered why i blanked out and panicked. christ what the hells wrong with me?) I looked back and as the great dane came bounding up to me I stepped to the side and tenkan'ed easily. the dog went by me and for a second i was safe. then the dog turned and i tenkan'ed again. I tripped on the lip of the sidewalk and i said 'uh, sh*t'. this time i got up and tried to run back to my apt. the dog got me that time. Bit in the butt. Just like the cartoons (the old ones). I got away with just two bruises.

But anyway, I remember how that tenkan worked so well. Even when I was numb with baseless fear I did it. There's a lot of technique i doubt in Aikido but tenkan is the real deal.

Aikilove
05-05-2003, 10:10 AM
Yepp! And it works great for the matadors in Madrid as well! :D

John Boswell
05-05-2003, 10:35 AM
I have a defense against dogs that I would NOT classify as Aikido, but it works for me... if ya got the guts:

Grab the dogs bottom jaw and hold down their tongue with your thumb.

Sounds gross, huh? And you'd think they'd just bite you anyways, but they won't... or at least they've never bitten me.

It has been my experience (with a rotwieler and others) that dogs can not stand this! They open their mouths even more and try to wiggle side to side to get you to let go. But if you take hold and don't let go... its been my experience that they don't bite but will try to get loose.

As for Tenkan, I have no doubt that it works. The more I learn about Tenkan, the more I respect it and its ability to position Nage for many, many things. But for dogs, I generally stand my ground and move fast to capture their lower jaw and tongue to put them off guard.

Do I recommend it? No. But its what I'd do. I'm wierd like that! :)

erikmenzel
05-05-2003, 11:14 AM
Yepp! And it works great for the matadors in Madrid as well! :D
SHOCKING NEWSFLASH

sometimes the bulls get the matadors :D :D

Hmm, seeing new possibilities for very long aikido isn't bullfighting effective thread :confused: :D

shihonage
05-05-2003, 12:40 PM
It would seem that a better strategy for subduing a dog would be irimi and getting it in a headlock as it jumps.

You can't tenkan forever.

Adam Garrison
05-05-2003, 01:14 PM
Just my two cents...

I have used juji-nage with great success on several dogs. A dog that can only limp after you is easier to outrun!

Mel Barker
05-05-2003, 02:15 PM
Damaging a dog's front legs is a viable strategy. Either a nikyo or kotegaehsi type motion will work.

The headlock seems a dangerous idea. It brings the dog close to your eyes and throat. Plus when it gets free, it starts all over again. As Akira Tohei would say, "first damage."

I've tried these on friendly training dog partners in the 80 to 100 pound range. They don't like have their legs attacked, and would work especially hard to disengage from a headlock. A large dog is quite a formible opponent and shouldn't be taken lightly.

An untested theory in combat is a dangerous thing. Initiative is often rewarded in violent interactions. I expect this would be especially true with an attacking dog.

Mel Barker

jaxonbrown
05-05-2003, 02:28 PM
rememeber fellow ka:

you must remember that you are carrying a small dog in your right hand it is so dark you can hardly make out the shape of the dog until it is near you (within four feet).

Col.Clink
05-05-2003, 08:51 PM
Glad to hear you've made a connection with tenkan Jaxon. Hopefully the next realization won't involve being bitten in the butt:D

John, the technique you describe is very well known. When teaching a young pup not to bite you in play, that is exactly how it is done, and most of the time the dog grows up knowing bitting a hand makes him feel uncomfortable, so the dog does not do it. It does not hurt the dog, but is extremely uncomfortable. I prefer to just wrap my hand around the upper and lower jaw, keeping the mouth entirely shut. Easier said than done.

However, I would not recommend it on full grown dogs, as if they have not experienced this before they will have two reactions, one of them being to clamp down on the fingers/hand.

I have too large dogs (1@2.5yrs 56kg, 1@16mths 48kg) and we have often practice "our Aikido" together. It's a long story that I won't go into. But, having been grounded an neumorous occasions, there is only a small amount of Tai Sabaki that will work until the dog changes tactic. Yes, they change tactics too!! Tenkan & Udefuri Waza come to mind.

Kotegaeshi will not work (paw turned back on the dog) that part of there joint is extremely flexible, nikkyo might, if you can get to the leg without being bitten.

A head lock won't work either, I can testify when I tried to do this with my dogs jumping at me, their paws went straight into my goolies!!:eek: And trying to hold a large dog down like this, he'll only force you off, as mine have done to me. Dogs can generate much more power than they actually look.



I myself would never take a chance on an attacking dog, especially a large breed. If you can manage to grab both legs and pull them apart, this will send the ribs/chest into the internal organs, either killing the dog, or severly damaging it, either way it won't attack you from then on.

Just to be sure, when I say attacking, I mean full on attack mode, not just warning barks or upright posture. If faced with this, just face the dog and walk backwards, make eye contact but not for too long, lots of yawning also tells the dog you are not a threat.

That's my thoughts on the subject.

cheers

Rob

Lan Powers
05-05-2003, 10:36 PM
Step off-line and snap kick to the ribs........it has never failed yet.:rolleyes:

I just hate to have to do it though.:freaky:

The recomendation of jujinage is true as well.........legs get disjointed pretty easily.

I hope you don't ever need to kick one off.

I have three differant times..:disgust:

Lan

PeterR
05-05-2003, 10:53 PM
You guys are such wimps - wait till you have to deal with the yakuza wanna be ("I want deer cookie now") deer in Nara Park. My last serious encounter drew blood - I was antlered from behind.

Serious tenkan training.

Lan Powers
05-05-2003, 11:02 PM
Not fair Mr. Rehse!

I spewed diet coke all over my keyboard!

Lan

bob_stra
05-06-2003, 12:03 AM
I've trained in aikido for about a year...
Pshaw...if you had learnt BJJ or Judo you would have been choking wild critters by the sixth month.

PS: Chickens are not wild critters.

udoka1
05-06-2003, 02:14 AM
let the damn dog latch on to your arm then with your other hand rip its damn eyes out! i bet he wont attack you anymore.

Bronson
05-06-2003, 08:57 AM
Step off-line and snap kick to the ribs........it has never failed yet

I saw my father do a variant of this when I was about 11 that worked pretty well. His friends german shepard for some reason took an instant dislike to me and charged at us. My did got between us and kicked the dog under the chin sending him end over end. The dog never bothered us again.

Bronson

p.s. A half-nelson works pretty good for doggy grappling :D

Ron Tisdale
05-06-2003, 09:09 AM
Someone mentioned the danger of a large, trained dog seriously attacking. I completely concur. There is a post on rec.martial-arts which is the best I've ever read on dealing with this kind of serious dog attack. The main point was...control the head. From my own experience, I agree.

Ron

PhilJ
05-10-2003, 01:04 AM
The head is definitely the main point. I have two labs around 90lbs each, and with a gentle nudge to that magical angle, I can roll them on the ground easily, even if they're "rasslin'" with me.

Another good spot, if you can get it, is the on the sides of the body, just a bit in front of the hip-thigh connection. There are some pressure points there that also can make the dog fall, or, at least redirect them where you want them to go...without injury.

When all else fails, use one hand to distract, the other to put pressure on the back of the neck (read as "WEIGHT UNDERSIDE"!). While it goes after the hand on the neck, it will turn around, offering a great opportunity to assume a standing, straddling domination position. (This is starting to sound more and more like a misdemeanor)

I drive my dogs nuts with this stuff, and they love it.

zachbiesanz
05-10-2003, 01:56 PM
Kabuto-gaeshi!