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Kensai
04-23-2003, 03:57 PM
Sorry to sound like an Uber Noob.

I was just looking at the attacks in Aikido and knowing that its more about the movement of energy rather than an actual "attack", I was thinking, which attack's energy would be most likened to that of a Wrestling/BJJ take down.

Sorry again for asking a noob like combat question, but this area of Aikido really interests me.

Thanks for your time,

Chris.

Greg Jennings
04-23-2003, 04:13 PM
Of the classic attacks, perhaps ryo kata dori (ki no nagare)?

The difference being the elevation of the attack and perhaps uke's posture.

It's quite interesting to practice against someone that can "shoot".

Try this next time: rather than sprawl or pancake, enter diagonally, hook your front arm under uke's arm and up behind their head; grab uke's head with your back arm; turn hips sharply 180 degrees and drop to a half-kneeling stance.

I was taught that by a pragmatic Jujitsu (their spelling) instructor. He said that their school had participated in a tournament with BJJ guys and shoot fighters and none had been taken down due to this counter.

YMMV,

Joe Jutsu
04-23-2003, 04:34 PM
Greg-

Thanks for the post. That's very interesting, I wish that I could see this defence done, because I'm having a little trouble visualizing it. Do you know of any links where I could see this technique being applied on the 'net? I have a high school wrestling background, so if anyone shot really deep on me I always thought I'd have to throw the "technical side" of Aikido out the door and resort to wrestling techniques that I know work for me. But those darn BJJ guys would probably choke me out before I knew what the hell was going on, so I would definitely not want to get into a wrestling match with one. That said, I'd be tempted to bet everything that I own that I will never get in a fight with a BJJ practitioner. I'll probably never get into a fight with anyone (if I'm lucky) at that. But I had thought of this hypothetical situation before. Thanks for the input, and interesting thread Chris!

:ki:

paw
04-23-2003, 08:19 PM
That's very interesting, I wish that I could see this defence done, because I'm having a little trouble visualizing it. Do you know of any links where I could see this technique being applied on the 'net?

Make that two of us. I'd be super interested in that as well.

Regards,

Paul

Greg Jennings
04-23-2003, 09:47 PM
OK, here goes:

1. Nage and uke face each other in a natural stance.

2. Uke steps forward with his right foot and extends both arms as to grab nage behind the knees/thighs.

3. Nage steps forward with his left foot, drops down. He's now sideways in left hanmi. The point of his left shoulder is in or near the hollow of uke's right shoulder. I.e, where uke would mount a rifle on the right shoulder.

4. Nage extends his left arm between uke's right arm and his body and up behind uke's back as though he's going to place his palm high between uke's shoulder blades.

5. Nage reaches over with his right hand and pulls/pushes uke's head down.

6. Nage combines lifting with his left arm, pulling/pushing down with his right hand/arm and turning his body 180 degress and dropping all at the same time.

7. Uke flips and lands on his back with his head toward Nage. Nage can immediately drop into a North/South mount and work from there.

It's just an oyowaza of kaiten nage.

Best Regards,

willy_lee
04-23-2003, 10:01 PM
Pardon me, as I'm not hugely experienced in wrestling, but how does this counter differ from a pancake? To me this sounds like what I thought a pancake is, but I am quite prepared to be mistaken.

Thanks for the thread, I'm sure many of us are interested in this kind of thing.

=wl

Kensai
04-24-2003, 04:27 AM
Thanks for the replys.

I am certain there a plenty of nice BJJ players out there, but when I chat on forums they seem to be pretty confident in their abilitys and I get the impression they all think they are Helio Gracie or something.

Personally I see BJJ (in a combat sence) as the Rabit that we all must catch. The level of dictation these guys have is amazing.

So with that in mind, I just wondered what you people thought would be a good counter to the general BJJ stand up attack.

Do you think it would be possible to slide underneath the shoot and go for something like a Tomoe Nage?

Also, taking on what Greg said do you think you could enter and take on of the arms for shiho-nage is a sort of suwari waza mannor?

Kensai
04-24-2003, 04:29 AM
OR

Come out diagonally and take Ikkyo?

paw
04-24-2003, 05:34 AM
To me this sounds like what I thought a pancake is, but I am quite prepared to be mistaken.

A light bulb goes on! And thanks, Greg for the more detailed description.

Chris,
I am certain there a plenty of nice BJJ players out there, but when I chat on forums they seem to be pretty confident in their abilitys and I get the impression they all think they are Helio Gracie or something.
I'm not Helio, but I am evil....
So with that in mind, I just wondered what you people thought would be a good counter to the general BJJ stand up attack.
It's not that uncommon for a bjj'er to have mediocre stand-up (relatively speaking). Exceptions to the rule tend to have experience in either judo or wrestling. So, if you can deal with judo players or wreslers, you should be fine. The bad news is bjj'ers are, on a whole, improving their standup.

(I'm talking in generalities and speaking only of tachi-waza --- I'm also ignoring the very real threat of the bjj'er jumping to the guard.)



For striking, bjj'ers tend to cross train in either boxing or muay thai, so if you can deal with either of those two groups, you shouldn't have a problem. The bad news here is the bjj'ers who cross train in such a manner are the vale tudo folks, so they are darn good athletes and have incorporated striking into their ground work.

Regards,

Paul

Greg Jennings
04-24-2003, 05:46 AM
Pardon me, as I'm not hugely experienced in wrestling, but how does this counter differ from a pancake? To me this sounds like what I thought a pancake is, but I am quite prepared to be mistaken.
From a wrestling perspective, I went to a backwater school, so take this with a grain of salt.

What I was taught as the "pancake" would have been from uke having a single-leg. Nage would secure uke's outside grabbing arm, lean forward some then pivot sharply sort of in place while giving uke an iriminage arm across the face.

Nage would land somewhere between a side mount and a half-mount.

Like I said, take all that with a grain of salt. I would be very, very happy if the counter *was* the well-known pancake as it would have years of success behind it.

Best Regards,

MikeE
04-24-2003, 07:24 AM
Having 6 years of BJJ experience. I incorporate those takedowns into my classes repertoire of defenses. I teach some techniques that go directly in to pins (one favorite against a shooting single leg leads right into a classic nikyo pin).

If you control uke's head (in most instances) you can nullify the attack). Please remember that BJJ for most intentional purposes is a sport. There are definite rules and things you can and cannot do. Unlike Aikido which has no rules, only the practitioner's character to dictate what is right and wrong.

In Aiki,

Greg Jennings
04-24-2003, 07:48 AM
Having 6 years of BJJ experience. I incorporate those takedowns into my classes repertoire of defenses. I teach some techniques that go directly in to pins (one favorite against a shooting single leg leads right into a classic nikyo pin).

If you control uke's head (in most instances) you can nullify the attack). Please remember that BJJ for most intentional purposes is a sport. There are definite rules and things you can and cannot do. Unlike Aikido which has no rules, only the practitioner's character to dictate what is right and wrong.
Hi Mike,

That's great information! I wish we were in proximity so I could come play. Sounds like a lot of fun.

Having no real BJJ experience, my counters are limited to sprawl, pancake, the kaitennage thing I talked about and just entering in, grabbing the head and "showing" a knee to the face.

Regards,

paw
04-24-2003, 07:52 AM
Mike,
Having 6 years of BJJ experience. .... Please remember that BJJ for most intentional purposes is a sport.

That's a very interesting statement to make. Who have you trained with?

Helio, Rorion, Royce, heck that whole side of the gracie family is very adamant about bjj being combative not sportive. Even traditional "sport" instructors are producing vale tudo fighters and instructing law enforcement and military personnel in the combative application of bjj. The current army combative manual, FM 3-25.150, is basic bjj.


Unlike Aikido which has no rules, only the practitioner's character to dictate what is right and wrong.
As Peter pointed out in another thread, aikido training is bound by a number of conventions (rules, if you will) that are more numerous than the conventions of judo or bjj.

Regards,

Paul

jk
04-24-2003, 09:27 AM
Do you think it would be possible to slide underneath the shoot and go for something like a Tomoe Nage?
Lessee...my "Total Moron's Guide to Wrasslin'" says the closest thing to that would be a "roll." If you can manage to do a classic tomoe nage, I suspect the guy doing the shoot needs to practice it a lot more. The experienced grapplers here can give you more info on the roll.

Regards,

MikeE
04-24-2003, 09:32 AM
Paul,

I train in Rickson Gracie's organization under Rodrigo Vaghi and David Arnebeck.

I would disagree with you on the rule thing. I have taken more experienced BJJ people with things like kyusho points and skin grabs, these are not taught in BJJ, and are not considered proper. Plus, being an Aikidoka, and wanting to play in my arena...I'm a bitch to get to the ground in the first place.

I'm not saying that BJJ is ineffective, not as good as Aikido, or anything like that. What I am saying is that BJJ is making a definite move in the general public to a sport. I think this is probably by design to bring it to a larger audience. To me, Vale Tudo and no holds barred is like a bar fight...still a sport. I.E.:

Two guys square off in the Octagon (substitute your favorite pub for octagon)

Only one can walk away.

Order today on pay per view! (substitute: 3 drink minimum for ordering on pay per view)

Your Aikido may have rules, mine has only my character, morals, and experience to guide it. Not that it's a bad thing to train and think how you do. I have no right to judge how you train and think. Just my opinions on how I train Budo.

All the Best.

paw
04-24-2003, 10:12 AM
Mike,
I train in Rickson Gracie's organization under Rodrigo Vaghi and David Arnebeck.

Mike Contreras hosted Rodrigo in Milwaukee a few years back. If you were there, we were on the same mat.
I would disagree with you on the rule thing. ... What I am saying is that BJJ is making a definite move in the general public to a sport.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree on both those points. Pinching, biting, hair pulling, heck, even wearing a wedding band would get me thrown out of just about every aikido mat I've ever stepped on.

I also think that's there's a significant segment of the bjj community that are focusing on non-sporting aspects of bjj as I mentioned earlier.

Regards,

Paul

MikeE
04-24-2003, 10:31 AM
Paul,

I didn't make the seminar (moving to a new house and such). I understand exactly where you are coming from. And in certain aspects I agree. But, even when you look at Rodrigo's requirements for Blue belt...you have to win a major tournament before consideration.

I'm sure there are BJJ artists focusing on non-sporting events...I just haven't seen much of it. No offense, it's probably my ignorance in not travelling extensively for the art.

I love BJJ. I have a blast training, but, it wouldn't be my first choice to defend myself.

All the Best,

willy_lee
04-24-2003, 11:48 AM
A light bulb goes on! And thanks, Greg for the more detailed description.
So, Paul, does that mean it IS a pancake? I'm not quite sure from your response.

Greg, I have no experience in wrestling beyond the eighth grade and reading books/online, so your description of a pancake may well be right. Also, I get the impression that wrestling terminology is not very standardized -- we may both be right.

=wl

Kyri Honigh
05-01-2003, 01:20 AM
A lot of different side issues came up here..but back to the originbal post.(too lazy to read all of them, just browsed through :).A take-down is a super effective attack if the opponent has some mass, some speed and ofcourse some skill to follow it up after shooting in.(punching,, choking ya know).So a smart aikidoka will keep proper maai (distance) to avoid such an attack, keep on the move.If he holds you by the middle tenkan strongly and try to lead him into a pin, cause he's trying to get you down,so let him go down first :).There are ofcourse a lot of what if situations, some will always be hard to answer, but just stick to the basics and be unconventional in a real attack yet attaining to the aikido " principles" (I hope i could get across what I had in mind) :s

PeterR
05-01-2003, 03:53 AM
Your Aikido may have rules, mine has only my character, morals, and experience to guide it. Not that it's a bad thing to train and think how you do. I have no right to judge how you train and think. Just my opinions on how I train Budo.
Well my name was brought into it so I might as well comment.

I notice from your homepage that you are Chief Instructor of your dojo so I assume that by the above statement is that your character, morals and experience are imposed on your students. These become unwritten rules on how your dojo operates and, as is only right, if they are transgressed you would have something to say about it.

Without rules, written or otherwise, we have chaos. I can assure you there are no written rules in my dojo either but watch how fast you get booted if you put my charges in danger.

Budo, in its proper form, is a dangerous undertaking. I assume that your students are not free to attack at any time in any manner (this is a rule). If that were the case you would either run out of students or end up being badly hurt.

No idea on how you run your dojo and I'm really not commenting about you specifically but I have heard the comment that Aikido is not a sport since we have no rules a number of times. My experience is that dojos that don't engage in randori (the type that can become shiai) tend in its place to introduce formalities in practice. These formallites are rules. There is no Aikido dojo, or Judo, or any other Martial Art I had the pleasure to train in where there was not some sort of established way of doing thing.

Grappler
05-14-2003, 01:46 AM
Having no real BJJ experience, my counters are limited to sprawl, pancake, the kaitennage thing I talked about and just entering in, grabbing the head and "showing" a knee to the face.
Knee to the head is an option, if you nab his head well, KO. But if it doesnt strike hard or precise, you'll get picked up and slammed. Sprawl is the safest and best (in my experience) option, especially if you are a heavy guy.

Grappler
05-14-2003, 01:57 AM
It's not that uncommon for a bjj'er to have mediocre stand-up (relatively speaking). Exceptions to the rule tend to have experience in either judo or wrestling. So, if you can deal with judo players or wreslers, you should be fine. The bad news is bjj'ers are, on a whole, improving their standup.
Yea, BJJers dont work on standup so much. Its because they are so confident of their ground abilities - if they end up with their back on the mat, they lock guard and are happy to work from there. If they end up on top, thats fine too. Wrestlers drill standup much more, wrestlers live and die with the takedown. Having your back on the mat is not an option for a wrestler.

George S. Ledyard
05-14-2003, 05:27 AM
Mike,



That's a very interesting statement to make. Who have you trained with?

Helio, Rorion, Royce, heck that whole side of the gracie family is very adamant about bjj being combative not sportive. Even traditional "sport" instructors are producing vale tudo fighters and instructing law enforcement and military personnel in the combative application of bjj. The current army combative manual, FM 3-25.150, is basic bjj.



As Peter pointed out in another thread, aikido training is bound by a number of conventions (rules, if you will) that are more numerous than the conventions of judo or bjj.

Regards,

Paul
Law Enforcement folks do a bit of BJJ because they need to know how to defend against grapplers. Most programs do not go beyond basic escapes. I know of no LE Defensive Tactics program that teaches BJJ type takedowns and submissions for line officer use. When the craze first hit there were some departments that set up some programs and a large number of individual officers who got involved. The problems became obvious from the start. BJJ is a sport. It is a form of empty hand fighting. Police officers, like the Samurai of old, are walking weapons systems. It is absolutely the last thing an officer wants to do to go to the ground and grapple. It may happen but it isn't what he wants. Many of the folks who studied BJJ initially found themselves on the ground defending their firearms, oc sprays etc. The standard control positions favored by the BJJ folks do not protect the weapons on the belt very well at all.

One example: one of my DT instructors was at our local Police Academy acting as a subject for officers on their mid-term test. They were supposed to take him down and cuff him from a standing position. He would give only light resistance at first and then would up the level of resistance until it was actually aggressive rather than just egressive. He had a young officer who was quite full of himself because he had studied some BJJ. Well when my student began to resist the officer went to the ground taking my student with him. He then attempted to sink a very nice arm bar on my student while my student removed his (the student's) own gun from his holster and "shot" him with it. This is not to say that BJJ doesn't have some elements that are useful for LE personnel but once again there are no ideal systems. Many fights for civilian and LE personnel involve multiple attackers. Just try that shoot, takedown, and move into the mounted position with the subject's friends smashing your head in while you look for the arm bar.

As for the military using BJJ for training... this has absolutely nothing to do with it's combat effectiveness. Since unarmed grappling would be the absolute last thing a soldier could be expected to encounter they don't worry much about that. They have incorporated BJJ into the training because it is great conditioning and does teach a good aggressive attitude. Can you actually see one of our modern military fellows with all that gear trying for a figure four submission or a sit out arm bar? No, it is strictly a good form of physical conditioning that also inculcates a combat mind set. From a technique standpoint it is pretty much irrelevant to anything a modern soldier might use.

As for what the older Gracie brothers know about street fighting, I don’t doubt that they can handle themselves. They grew up in Rio and its rough there. But once again those techniques are not what is generally being imparted under BJJ in most schools. It is the competition form of the art that has swept the world and that has just as many problems for a “street” fighter as any other style might.

In the end it is about what you need to know for a given situation. If I went to the ground I would like to know a bit of grappling, especially reversals and escapes. But if I were in a multiple attacker situation I'd take Aikido over BJJ any day. We are way better on movement. Against an armed attacker I'd take Aikido or Aikijutsu as well although I suspect that there are BJJ guys who could handle this. But I wouldn't want to be shooting for that double leg takedown against a guy who could bury his knife in my back as I tried.

PeterR
05-14-2003, 05:54 AM
In the end it is about what you need to know for a given situation. If I went to the ground I would like to know a bit of grappling, especially reversals and escapes. But if I were in a multiple attacker situation I'd take Aikido over BJJ any day. We are way better on movement. Against an armed attacker I'd take Aikido or Aikijutsu as well although I suspect that there are BJJ guys who could handle this. But I wouldn't want to be shooting for that double leg takedown against a guy who could bury his knife in my back as I tried.
Your quote, quoted me so ... as I just agreed with your post albeit on another thread. I think Paul and I were commenting on "there are no rules in Aikido" rather than the superiority of one art over the other. Like you, my primary stategy will be the Aikido ma ai in a confrontation - that offers the most flexibility. I guess it's not just us Aikido types that believe our own press.

MikeE
05-14-2003, 06:07 AM
Peter,

Please don't put words in my mouth. I train budo to be safe and to keep my loved ones safe. This is the mentality I impress upon my students. I like the idea of training for 10,000 changes, no surprises. We have randori class every week. Many times with ukes attacking with concealed weapons (no, not an ankle holstered .38)

I wouldn't say Aikido is not a sport because it has no rules. I would be more inclined to state that Aikido is not a sport because their is no winner. Only the intent, character, and training of the persons involved to determine the outcome.

As for the term "rule". What I was getting at is that in sport arts they will say you cannot do this or that, because you will be disqualified. In Aikido, we will choose not to claw your partners' eyes out in the dojo, but, we will explore the possibility of doing so in a specific situation if the need arises. That is what I mean by no rules.

A police officer will train repeatedly and consistently on shooting an armed assailant. This same officer may never have to follow through on this training. But, he/she is prepared for the eventuality.

You stated:

"Budo, in its proper form, is a dangerous undertaking." I would argue that the current form of budo of the present is not so much dangerous as it should be embraced with a sincere, serious attitude.

PeterR
05-14-2003, 06:41 AM
Peter,

Please don't put words in my mouth.
Mike don't think I did. Paul quoted me from another thread so I probably took a bit of baggage from that one and others past when I posted here. Sorry if that came across a little twisted but being from the Tomiki camp I've heard the argument often enough that its become a pet peeve.

My point was made. I thought I was very carefull to make it clear that I wasn't particularily referring to your dojo (see the last paragraph).

Grappler
05-14-2003, 07:43 AM
The problems became obvious from the start. BJJ is a sport. It is a form of empty hand fighting. Police officers, like the Samurai of old, are walking weapons systems. It is absolutely the last thing an officer wants to do to go to the ground and grapple. It may happen but it isn't what he wants. Many of the folks who studied BJJ initially found themselves on the ground defending their firearms, oc sprays etc. The standard control positions favored by the BJJ folks do not protect the weapons on the belt very well at all.
True, but if you ARE taken to the ground you gotta know what to do. A lot of times you dont get the luxury of choice. And BJJ is ALSO a sport. Not only. BJJ tactics used in a pure BJJ tournament are much different from tactics used in a no-holds-barred fight, and different from restraining/law enforcement situations. If you use sport BJJ tactics in the wrong situation, thats your fault, not BJJ's ;)
But if I were in a multiple attacker situation I'd take Aikido over BJJ any day.
Using either would get you beaten down. You dont want to fight multiple attackers. If there are any obstacles, like doors, stairs, poles, use them, keep moving, strike fast (just quick punches , nothing fancy) and run. If you are in an open space, forget it, just run, surrounded = lost, whatever martial art you use wont help you... unless you are significantly stronger and more skilled than your attackers, but in that case they wouldnt have attacked you in the first place :)

paw
05-14-2003, 08:19 AM
Peter,

Sorry to drag you into this thread. Remind me that I owe you one (or several, given inflation).

George,

I tried to address two things with the post you quoted:

1. That there are a group of individuals who are committed to teaching bjj as combat

2. There are "rules" in aikido

It turns out that Mike and I disagree on both points, which is all well and good. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree about both issues.

By the by, I know you teach DT, so does

ISR Matrix (http://www.isrmatrix.org/home.shtml) ... I'd be interested in your thoughts on their approach.

Regards,

Paul

George S. Ledyard
05-14-2003, 11:34 AM
Peter,

Sorry to drag you into this thread. Remind me that I owe you one (or several, given inflation).

George,

I tried to address two things with the post you quoted:

1. That there are a group of individuals who are committed to teaching bjj as combat

2. There are "rules" in aikido

It turns out that Mike and I disagree on both points, which is all well and good. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree about both issues.

By the by, I know you teach DT, so does

ISR Matrix (http://www.isrmatrix.org/home.shtml) ... I'd be interested in your thoughts on their approach.

Regards,

Paul
a) I am sure that there are folks doing BJJ from a combat standpoint. It is just relevant to remember where all this stuff came from. In the days of the koryu there were complete systems of combat which always included some grappling or ground fighting component. It is obviously crucial that people be able to handle themselves on the ground. But the grappling components weren't arts in themselves. So it is important that for folks like Law Enforcement the concept is the same. They need to be taught a unified system. Their grappling must presuppose that both the subject and the officer are armed. It must allow for multiple assailant tactics. It should have very low level force appliaction as well as officer survival combat application. I haven't seen any single system that has all of this but I have seen people creating them by taking what they need from the various systems that are out there and putting them together to form a whole.

I do not believe there are rules in Aikido but there are "conventions" that we follow in training. If people do not put some attention on on going beyond these "conventions" they can be limiting in what one sees as possibilities. I remember looking at a student in class one night and seeing that he had lost control of his partner and was on the ground with him I said "this is where you grab his head with both hands and bang it on the pavement". I have to say that there aren't a lot of Aikidoi dojos I have seen where one might have heard that but mine is one.

The system shown on that website is quite nice. It looks a lot like what Officer Don Gula from the King County Sheriff's Department has worked out up in Washington. They call their system "arrestling" and have been promoting it for the police games. It is very similiar in technqiue and in terms of how they train. It looks like a great system but I doubt there will be too many departments who will actually adopt such a system. This is only because it actually looks like those guys really train. Most departments won't do anything that realistic. If there is a guy from the system who already has an "in" at his academy or department then there is hope.

My stuff has a bit more use of the arms and head as you might expect from an Aikido based system but overall we do a lot of the same stuff.

paw
05-14-2003, 12:21 PM
George,
I remember looking at a student in class one night and seeing that he had lost control of his partner and was on the ground with him I said "this is where you grab his head with both hands and bang it on the pavement". I have to say that there aren't a lot of Aikidoi dojos I have seen where one might have heard that but mine is one.

And we love you for it!
It looks like a great system but I doubt there will be too many departments who will actually adopt such a system. This is only because it actually looks like those guys really train. Most departments won't do anything that realistic.

Isn't that the truth. And still how many full page ads begin with "learn this deadly art that is taught to law enforcement"....

Warm Regards,

Paul