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Peter Klein
04-17-2003, 01:35 PM
which kyu do i need to have?

akiy
04-17-2003, 01:53 PM
I don't think there's any sort of criteria of kyu ranking in order to be able to do breakfalls (or throw a partner in a breakfall) with kotegaeshi...

It sounds like the question, "How long is a piece of string?"

-- Jun

shihonage
04-17-2003, 02:12 PM
How long is a piece of string?

-- Jun
This long.

erikmenzel
04-17-2003, 02:14 PM
which kyu do i need to have?
I think you should have at least reached the high and mighty level of mukyu :D

PeterR
04-17-2003, 07:48 PM
You guys are really unfair.

Peter.

I had one student doing day one - he had some martial arts experience but had never done the flips. He just had balls and the will.

I had one lady who had never any budo experience and saw me take one. Came to me the next week and said she wanted to do that. It took me a couple more weeks to get her ready but she was doing them just fine after that.

Grab someone and let them know what you want. Doesn't have to be your teacher.

sanosuke
04-17-2003, 09:54 PM
when the kote gaeshi flip come?

when you already feel sure and secure about it.

Hanna B
04-18-2003, 03:07 AM
Peter, are you unpatiently waiting to be taught them or do you hesitate and wonder how long time you have before you should have learned them?

Around here, it has been like an informal agreement that at third kyu you should be able to take flips/break falls. We wear hakama from third kyu, so you will kind of be expected to be able to take more advanced ukemi if you wear a hakama. On the other hand, there are those who are not so young when they start practising, have some kind of injury or simply not the guts - and will never really learn it. They get their ranks anyway.

bob_stra
04-18-2003, 03:36 AM
It sounds like the question, "How long is a piece of string?"

-- Jun
Twice as long as half of it.

;-)

BTW, how are the kote gaeshi flips done?

I'm in no hurry to do em, but am curious - do you literally just jump up and flip yourself over your trapped hand or what?

Ditto Irimi nage "flips" ala

http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~murray/aikido/gutar1-n.mpg

PeterR
04-18-2003, 04:05 AM
BTW, how are the kote gaeshi flips done?

I'm in no hurry to do em, but am curious - do you literally just jump up and flip yourself over your trapped hand or what?
Take a look at http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html

I teach them as an extention of the forward role. Once you get used to flipping over yourself then with someone holding on to you its trivial.

That said I'm not the great at them, I'm happier flipping around when there is lots of room.

erikmenzel
04-18-2003, 04:53 AM
Some people learn flips easily and others still hate them after years of experience.

Setting a time at which one should do them has the great risk of making oneself lazy and forfitting on what is due at that time. For this reason I state that for flipping one should have at least mukyu. I have been in places where flipping was required for 3rd kyu and thus some people training for 5th kyu who where clearly at that point of there progress in ukemi that flipping would be a natural thing to do next were not learning how to flip simply because they thought it to be beyond their graps because it was required at 3rd kyu.

I also have noticed that sometimes the level at which flipping (or other spectacular ukemi for that matter) is sometimes dominated by some kind of groupconsience. If everybody accepts that flipping can be done after at least a year then most often it will take at least a year. If however someone walks in that has the talent and development to flip after half a year and really start doing flips then the groupsconsciences changes and thus the time needed to learn flips changes.

Practise, be safe and feel comfortable.

MikeE
04-18-2003, 08:17 AM
In our style with kotegaeshi. Never. You won't throw someone into a breakfall because doing this to you average joe on the street will result in a broken wrist, elbow, or shoulder.

In the dojo, it sure is pretty, though.

akiy
04-18-2003, 09:23 AM
In our style with kotegaeshi. Never. You won't throw someone into a breakfall because doing this to you average joe on the street will result in a broken wrist, elbow, or shoulder.
Interesting. Do you ever teach them, though, for people who may visit other dojo?

-- Jun

Alfonso
04-18-2003, 12:34 PM
Is the kotegaeshi flip entirely your choice?

For me, it depends on how I'm thrown as much / more perhaps than if I'm willing or not to do it.

I'm comfortable with flips (was flipped on my first Aikido class too), but if nage is doing "carpet roll" kotegaeshi flipping doesn't seem to fit well.. a back-roll is easier ..

then there's another way of doing kotegaeshi which seem to call for an over the arm high fall (Peter's link shows that throw, forearm motion is sideways rather then down).

, then there's different ways of going into that fall, "silent" , "sideways", roll, etc.

Do you do all of these at will?

Peter Klein
04-18-2003, 03:27 PM
thanks alot guys i do aikido since september and i really would love to try a new way of falling from gothe gaeshi. but i dont think the teacher would like that, cause its kinda showy if every other guy rolls and i flip ;) in my dojo getting the 5th kyu takes at least 6 months

MikeE
04-19-2003, 09:15 AM
Jun,

I will teach for historical reference and demonstrations. It's amazing how you can sit down to avoid the flip.

Ta Kung
04-20-2003, 02:40 AM
It's amazing how you can sit down to avoid the flip.

It's also amazing how you can refuse to attack nage in the first place, thus not beeing thrown at all. :D

Seriously though. I think that taking break falls allows your nage to put more into the technique, without the risk of hurting uke. We sometimes practise a variation of kote gaeshi, that is very hard to take a normal fall from. It's so fast that falling "normaly" is too slow, and you might end up hurting ukes wrist. Ofcourse, this variation is only done in the advanced group, and only on those who wish to practise it.

Take care!

/Patrik