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bob_stra
04-15-2003, 02:39 PM
I had some fun last weekend playing tag with a family friend's kids. And by fun, I mean it was a nightmare!

The taisabaki did not work *at all*. The kids were just too damn mobile - they'd come forwards, I'd pivot out the way, place myself in an unstable position (unable to move fast again), they'd tag me. Over and over and over.

Seemingly, one needs "ultra fast" taisabaki against kids ;-)

Lessons learnt -

(1) You can't really evade someone forever, especially if they have a linear attack and you have a circular (slower) movement. Too damn slow.

(2) You do all sorts of wierd things to your posture playing tag, that hopefully wouldn't happen in a "live situation".

(3) My perspective of controlling ma-ai is really, really screwy.

(4) Knee walking is not so practical in jeans and shoes ;-)

Well, it was a huge ego deflator. If I can't handle two rowdy pre-teens in a friendly game of tag, I've got some serious doubts abt my movement skills.

(on the upside, I found out that BJJ works just fine on Great Danes ;-)

shihonage
04-15-2003, 02:43 PM
Why don't you "lower" yourself to the same skillset that they used when playing the game with you ?

When you let Aikido place imitations on you, "I must do this this way, and I must do that that way only", then instead of becoming an Aikido Master, you become an Aikido Slave.

It just doesn't work that way.

Natural movement is the best movement. Aikido is natural movement.
You should "harmonize" with the way the kids do it, not with the static picture you painted in your head.

bob_stra
04-15-2003, 02:49 PM
Why don't you "lower" yourself to the same skillset that they used when playing the game with you ?
Because I wanted to see if the taisabaki (as taught) was actually applicable to a "real life" situation. Sure, I can run and dodge fast than 12yr olds...but that's kind neither here nor there ;)

I now have serious doubts abt taisabaki vs fast, agressive "opponents". I got the feeling that one needs to take hold of the situation fairly sharpish and somehow control the other guys movement. Of course, you can't really smack little kids around and grabbing them means you're caught so... movement only...how does one control the other man's movement?

Kids are good to play with. They don't know anything about placebo :)

MikeE
04-15-2003, 02:55 PM
Of course I'm sure that it was all in fun, and you didn't use atemi as part of your taisabaki....so I wouldn't consider it a litmus test unless you can use all aspects of the art.

jxa127
04-15-2003, 03:16 PM
I now have serious doubts abt taisabaki vs fast, agressive "opponents". I got the feeling that one needs to take hold of the situation fairly sharpish and somehow control the other guys movement.

Well...yeah. I've been taught that the body movement is just part of our response. We also blend with the attack, make contact, and lead our opponent.

On the other hand: One day after class, when I had been practicing for only about a year, somebody observing the class asked about our response to attacks. I think he was expecting us to block the strikes. My instructor, knowing I had studied TKD for a while, asked me to block his punches and then started to hit me with a rapid series of strikes. I blocked every 2nd or 3rd strike. It was a good thing he wasn't punching hard.

He then said, "Do aikido!" and came at me again. I had no idea what he expected, and he came so quickly I did not really have time to think about my reaction. I performed four tenkan movements before he was able to land a punch on me.

So in my experience, you're right, you can evade forever, but your opponent will have to work a lot harder to get to you if you use good body movement.

Regards,

-Drew

bob_stra
04-15-2003, 03:26 PM
It kinda gave me a new perspective on the whole "99% of aikido is atemi" cliche.

Is body movement alone really so useless?

Any tips for what I can try out for next time (given the restrictions of tag and the fact that they're kids?). Maybe flick my hand at their face while sneak behind 'em? ;-)

Maybe I'll try taisabaki against the dog...on second thoughts...dogs are even faster than kids ;-(

Erik Young
04-15-2003, 03:44 PM
Another things to remember is that kids are smart. What works the first (maybe even the second time) is not likely to work after that. So, your first tenkan move may work to evade, but then the kids will figure that out...it won't be surprising anymore.

Tag is a drawn out event...it goes on and on. A fight (at least in Aikido terms) has a definite beginning and end and tends to be much shorter in duration (particularly if you succeed in applying the first technique or two). Your opponent will not necessaril;y have much time to make adjustments to your techniques. That's not to say it won;t happen...basically I'm jsut saying that tag is not analagous to a fight...and perhaps your comparison is not an accurate one. Perhaps getting to where your tai sabaki gets better and makes your tag more effective coudl make the game a training tool (rather than a etst of technique effectiveness or validity).

Peace,

Erik

bob_stra
04-15-2003, 03:56 PM
Erik Young wrote: -

>Another things to remember is that kids >are smart. What works the first (maybe >even the second time)

It worked exactly 0 times. The taisabaki movement was too obvious for them. Plus, I didn't get behind them, mere out of the way. Stupid!!

So, taisabaki - get to a place where the other guy can't get you Vs just dodge out of the way?

>Tag is a drawn out event...it goes on >and on.

Much like a flurry of punches from an enraged drunkard?

>A fight (at least in Aikido terms) has >a definite beginning and end and tends >to be much shorter in duration

I dunno. A lot of it has to do with compliance I think. If I really wanted to, I'm sure I could bust my way out of a lot of different holds. It would be stupid and pointless (training wise), but definately possible.

>That's not to say it won;t >happen...basically I'm jsut saying that >tag is not analagous to a fight...and

No, not really. Though I thought it might be something similar to 2 on 1 randori/jujiwaza.

>Perhaps getting to where your tai >sabaki gets better and makes your tag >more effective coudl make the game a

yes, exactly!! Fun for the kids, training for me ;-)

I'm just depressed it "didn't work". Really, really depressed ;(

bob_stra
04-15-2003, 04:23 PM
Addendum -

Here's something tangential that I'm reading over on r.m.a. See what you think of it

The entire thread is here

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=8rott5%24bpc%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=113

1st person writes:

>and I'm sure they work better if >openings are viewed in that

>light - but this is not what the >aikikai style does.

2nd person writes:

>> If you examine the techniques, it is >>exactly* what the aikikai

>> style does. the only problem is that >>it does it by rote, by setting

>> up the uke and tori in a way that >>gives the opening.

1st person writes:

>I do not see this as correct.

2nd person writes:

Because your training method gives you tunnel vision. You do any of

the techniques against any of the attacks. the hands and feet all end

up in the right place with Uke moving in exactly the right

direction... it is rote. You never have to know the opening for the

technique. It is handed to you on a silver platter. So you never

actually learn when you can do the technique and when not, and how to

set it up. Programmed for failure.

willy_lee
04-15-2003, 04:29 PM
Ellis Amdur has a chapter in his book "Dueling with O-Sensei" of which the main point is that tenkan alone cannot really work without irimi. I don't have the book with me so I can't look up the name of the chapter. He illustrated his point with a story in his own inimitable way (involving demons and Richard Grieco, just to intrigue anyone who hasn't read the book).

Point being, you might want to add a little irimi before you try to tenkan away. Although with tag it's a bit different cause you don't want any touch at all, do you? Good practice then for your "no-touch" irimi throws :)

I seem to remember reading a story about some aikido shihan who used to practice tenkan with large dogs which he had trained to jump at him. Wonder how well that worked?

Did you try to parry away the tagging arms as you tenkan (one kind of irimi, I guess)? Could you change the rules if necessary to allow that? And definitely try to get behind them. YOu could do the old Three Stooges bit where you're behind them with a hand on their head :) A little irimi-nage from there might be fun :)

Tag is fun!

=wl

p.s. What if you tried some kiai?

bob_stra
04-15-2003, 04:45 PM
Willy Lee wrote

>Ellis Amdur has a chapter in his book >"Dueling with O-Sensei" of which the

I read the synopsis for that book. It's 100% on my "To Buy" list

>Point being, you might want to add a >little irimi before you try to tenkan >away.

Tried that too - didn't work either ;(

(though I admit it was a staggered start irimi. Irimi...wait...tenkan)

>Did you try to parry away the tagging >arms as you tenkan (one kind of irimi, >I guess)?

Wait....that's a brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that?

>What if you tried some kiai?

Ok, so now I have *2* good things to try!!

*anyhow, as if my wont, this kind of thinking has sparked all sorts of other question in the old noggin. Like...if atemi is necessary for aikido in real life, why isn't more attention paid to teaching it? Do you really need to learn to box before you can use your aikido? Etc. Ideas for other threads!!*

shihonage
04-15-2003, 05:35 PM
>Did you try to parry away the tagging >arms as you tenkan (one kind of irimi, >I guess)?

Wait....that's a brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that?
This is how shomen uchi iriminage is done, and this is how shomen uchi kotegaeshi is done.

You irimi before you tenkan.

Ghost Fox
04-16-2003, 08:13 AM
I used my Aikido to play Flag Football (American) with excellent results. They called me the Whirling Dervish. Whenever they came close to the flag on my hip I would Tenkan around them or side-step and guide their hand away. Although I did have a few personal fouls against me for putting my hands in peoples faces in order to block a pass:( . Nobody's perfect.

paw
04-16-2003, 08:50 AM
I used my Aikido to play Flag Football (American) with excellent results. They called me the Whirling Dervish. Whenever they came close to the flag on my hip I would Tenkan around them or side-step and guide their hand away.

"They" are not using correct technique. The correct technique in Flag Football is to tackle first, and then remove the flag.

Regards,

Paul

MikeE
04-16-2003, 02:50 PM
I agree with Paul 100%. :)

MikeE
04-16-2003, 02:53 PM
BTW, after reading this thread and having a chance to mess with my younger relatives this week...just turning is not the thing.

Mimicking what was posted earlier; tenkan begins and ends with irimi. It's much easier to avoid them when you lead their mind by changing their perception of distance. Worked like a charm for me. (Of course, my family's young ones are probably much less coordinated)