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Jappzz
03-25-2003, 08:35 AM
Hi everybody!

I have been sniffing about the phillipine MA's, namely kali, for a while now reading about their concepts of dealing with bladed attacks. I personally think their means of defence is a bit overkill but they still deal with a wide assortment of attacks not just the thrust or yokomen. This brought up a number of questions...

Considering that you DO expect to get any kind of advantage in knife disarming from aikido, do you consider that your getting it?...

Also, do you consider that your perticular style of aikido deals with non-linear or errratic striking/slashing patterns.

Thirdly, does anyone have experince of training in both traditions, and if so, have you got any reflections to share on the topic.

Hugs

Jesper Arenskogh

bcole23
03-25-2003, 11:31 AM
I'll just say this..

Only the most highly trained people in Aikido could ever take on an experienced knife fighter.

At my dojo, we try to work in realistic scenarios outside of the regular ciriculum now and again. It's normally pretty eyeopening how much you get cut. Knife fighters don't normally try to ram the knife straight through your heart, but cut you up again and again and again ad infinitum.

willy_lee
03-25-2003, 11:36 AM
Hi everybody!

I have been sniffing about the phillipine MA's, namely kali, for a while now reading about their concepts of dealing with bladed attacks. I personally think their means of defence is a bit overkill but they still deal with a wide assortment of attacks not just the thrust or yokomen. This brought up a number of questions...
Hmm... but every attack with a knife or stick is still a thrust or yokomen-type attack, isn't it? Maybe FMA will look at more varieties of thrusts or slashes -- different targets -- but the treatment is still pretty fundamentally similar.
Considering that you DO expect to get any kind of advantage in knife disarming from aikido, do you consider that your getting it?...
I think some advantage, at least. If you can get off line and pull off something like a kotegaeshi or nikkyo. Of course, knowing the procedure and actually pulling it off are two different things...
Also, do you consider that your perticular style of aikido deals with non-linear or errratic striking/slashing patterns.
Well, you just have to practice like that. We don't really do it in class. I'd like to find some like-minded people to do that sort of practice with.
Thirdly, does anyone have experince of training in both traditions, and if so, have you got any reflections to share on the topic.
*raises hand* Well, yes, I think they work together quite well, as I've mentioned before on this forum. Similar concepts, different ranges. The FMA can be quite an eye-opener about different ways to use a knife or stick. And there's a lot of training on how to use the other hand ("live" hand). And lots of emphasis on flow and connection :).

=wl

willy_lee
03-25-2003, 11:46 AM
I'll just say this..

Only the most highly trained people in Aikido could ever take on an experienced knife fighter.
I wouldn't even say experienced. It takes very little for an inexperienced but determined person with a knife to cut you pretty badly.

=wl

jxa127
03-25-2003, 12:26 PM
As an aside, I read a report in Black Belt Magazine last year where a large number of knife attacks were studied. If I remember the conclusions correctly, the deadliest knife attacks were overhead, ice pick attacks. I can't remember if those attacks were also the most prevalent, but I think they were. Additionally, a good number of them were to the victim's back! In any event, an attack like that is a lot like shomen uchi in terms of energy and direction.

In our dojo, we treat all empty hand attacks as though they are, or could become, armed attacks. Generally, then, a knife attack is a bit of an anti-climax in our dojo.

We do train with unconventional attacks from time to time, but when that happens, it tends to reinforce my faith in the principles of blending and body movement we study.

Having said that, I'd like to do a bit of experiementation and see what happens.

Regards,

-Drew

Erik
03-25-2003, 01:16 PM
I remember attending a class with a fairly prominent and competent teacher. He jokingly made a comment along the lines of "if you see a knife run, if you see a Filipino (is ph or f?) with a knife run really fast".

I like to tell people that when you disarm a sword you need to remember one thing. The kind of disarms we do only work against samurai who flunked samurai school. Good samurai won't do what what you typically see. I think for most of us this applies to knives as well and obviously there are those special few.

On the other hand, I know of a 5th kyu (maybe 6th???) who disarmed a knife with a sankyo. I suspect the guy nearly gave the women his hand, and she was former LAPD, but there you go.

I think I read that article in Black Belt magazine. If I remember rightly, the author also made a point that when someone shows you the knife it's a threat. In other words, if they show you the knife they want you to back off, give them your wallet or something similar.

siwilson
03-25-2003, 01:57 PM
As it goes, the types of attacks practiced against in Aikido are committed. This may happen with an inexperienced person armed with a knife, but anyone who has even a hint of competence will not be thrusting at you.

We do practice with live bladed knives (it is even part of our black belt exams), though this is in the manner of Jiyu Waza - Committed forms of attack!

Like said before, if they show you the knife it is a threat. If they want to stick you, then chances are you won't even see it!

Attacks will tend to be uncommitted slashes, cutting at anything they can reach (hands/wrist/fingers/etc.), wearing you down.

We practice this too, using wooden knives. Bruised wrist are the norm, as students tend to try to gain control of Uke's knife. When we practice knife on knife, where Tori (Nage) counters by slashing the attacking hand/wrist/arm, which works very well, wearing down the attacker.

So how do you deal with the armed attacker when you are unarmed? Your hand becomes the knife and you strike the hand/wrist/arm wearing down the attacker.

This can then present the oppotunity later to control the attacker or escape.

MaylandL
03-26-2003, 07:04 AM
I recently attended a stick and knife defence and retention seminar witha guy that has trained aussie special forces and professional bodyguards for aussie diplomats, a guy called Rob Gear. Lots of experience it seems. Well the seminar was enjoyable but something he said made sense to me.

He said that:

You are going to get cut (or get killed) coming up against someone with a knife. Chances are you wont even see it until you actually do get cut and it takes less than a 1cm deep wound to do some serious injury. Its also likely to be a frenzied attack with multiple cuts and stabs in a matter of seconds.

Regardless of what martial art you do, the odds are stacked against you. I think I'll follow his advice and run real fast, throw lots of things at him or hit him with something large and long and then run real fast.

Have fun training :)

Fiona D
03-26-2003, 07:39 AM
Haven't done much knife defence in Aikido yet as I've not been training all that long, but we do quite a lot of it in the Jiu Jitsu style I train in. We start off with very committed attacks, which aren't TOO bad to deal with if you're sufficiently alert, but we're told right from the start that we'd be very unlikely to get that kind of attack in the real world (but one has to start somewhere...). Even semi-committed attacks, where uke comes in full strength but then retracts the knife hand & attacks again if nage doesn't get control immediately can be very tricky to deal with. We've also played around quite a bit with the nasty (and, unfortunately, more plausible) knife attacks where uke either attacks with lots of short quick stabs, or stalks and feints a lot. In this case, though one *might* eventually get in and get control, it's usually after many cuts, especially to the hands, wrists and forearms. Sometimes we also work with the sort of 'trick' knife attacks just to see what can be done, things like uke swapping the knife from hand to hand, or coming in with the knife blade angled down their wrist so you can't grab it, then slashing the blade outwards. Hard to train; hard to describe successful strategies (if such exist?) - but very worthwhile to work on from time to time. If nothing else, it certainly gives one a better sense of perspective on just how difficult knives are to deal with.

Bpetriw
03-27-2003, 07:43 AM
I recall reading that article in BB mag as well. The point that stuck out in my mind is that the min safe distance from a knife attacker is 21 ft. They tested a number of police officers and no one could draw their gun and stop the attacker at less than 21 ft.

I guess if you are going to try to disarm a knife attacker, you are going to get cut. I think it also follows that if you are in any fight, you are likely to get hit/hurt.

JJF
03-27-2003, 08:04 AM
A while ago I sold my Kendo-equipment, since I don't use it anymore. However I kept my shinai simply because I concider it a great self defence weapon (no I don't carry it around, but I keep it upstairs next to my bedroom). If somebody try to break in or hazzle some of the neighbours then it would give me a great advantage in distance - even if they carry a knife. Also I would be able to inflict quite a bit of pain, without hurting them as much as if I used a knife or a baseball bat.

If they should have a gun I would get down on the floor and call the cops.... fortunately enough very few troublemakers or burglars around these parts carries guns, so for now the shinai should be a good tool of selfdefence.

leefr
03-27-2003, 10:36 AM
One piece of advice that struck me as even minimally practical was to grab a chair and hold it between you and the attacker, keeping the legs pointing towards him. This will enable you to keep your distance and present an obstacle to any short, quick cuts or thrusts. It would be best to carefully maintain distance until the attacker gets frustrated and does something rash or makes a committed attack that can be dealt with.

Of course, this is assuming that something has prevented you from escaping the situation already.