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adrian
03-17-2003, 04:18 AM
Hey, read this acticle carefuly

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/article.asp?ArticleID=378

I've trained almost two years, i'm very dissapointed, very. All he wanted i impress people, he's just a fake. I don't get it, if the ukes knew it's all a fake why train under such a sensei ?

otto
03-17-2003, 07:03 AM
Adrian

What if this "feat" is fake , is your training "fake" too?

If so , by all means quit Aikido , and put yourself to something you really believe in.

Dont believe blindly in what you read or hear , but in what youre doing.

Best Regards.

Otto

Peter Goldsbury
03-17-2003, 07:29 AM
Mr Neagu,

I doubt whether the entire aikido world will collapse on the basis of one article, based on one photograph of what is really a continuous movement.

The uke on the right, next to Morihei Ueshiba, was my teacher in the UK and Japan and he is most certainly not a fake. He began training with Morihei Ueshiba when the latter was 72 years of age and was trained to become a very tough shihan. He now lives in San Diego and his name is Kazuo Chiba. If you like, I can introduce you to him and you might like to go and train with him--and ask him about the photograph.

Personally, I think the author of the article would have done better to seek out the people in the photograph, like Chiba Shihan, and interview them, before producing a whole load of what is really speculation.

Since I have trained for many years under the direction of many of Morihei Ueshiba's immediate disciples, who could walk their talk, I myself believe that what I am doing is not fake in any way. But this is my opinion and I am open to correction by more experienced members of this forum.

Finally, you say you have trained for 2 years, so I would put you at around 4th kyu level. Have you trained in other Japanese martial arts and do you think you own training in aikido has been 'fake' in any way by comparison? You train in Moldova, which does not have a resident shihan, so I am curious about who your teacher is.

Of course, I am not attacking your aikido credentials, but when I first saw the photograph, reproduced in many books and magazines, I did not think it was fake. Why? Because I myself have been uke in precisely the same situation, but not with Morihei Ueshiba. You can do the same technique empty-handed (with ukes grasping the arm). It does not matter whether you throw forwards or backwards. However, it is very difficult and I have never seen it done with more than 2 ukes. But it is an exercise, rather than a technique.

In my opinion, it is very similar to the technique known as shomen-uchi ikkyo. The purpose of the training is to learn various principles essential to aikido. If I wanted to kill or seriously disable someone "in the street", the last technque I would use is ikkyo, or whatever technique is shown in the photograph.

But your post was rather brief and I am not sure if I have understood you correctly.

Best regards,

bob_stra
03-17-2003, 08:19 AM
Hey, read this acticle carefuly

I've trained almost two years, i'm very dissapointed, very.
What's the problem? He used a little slight of hand to whet the appetite? Big deal. You didn't *actually* believe he dodged bullets and such? ;-)

This may help explain why such things happen.

http://tinyurl.com/7mji

SmilingNage
03-17-2003, 09:56 AM
I wasnt going to chime in on this thread, but after reading the article. I was abit unsettled about the author's intent. But I think I was divided between who to be unsettled with: Mr Garrelt's under researched article or Mr Pranin for allowing the article on his website.

Mr Garrelt is entitled to his opinion. If he really wanted to get to the bottom of the what really happened in that picture,then he should have gone to the 1st hand accounts of the people involved. A good journalist would have done this. Then he would have asked the 2nd hand accounts ie. the people watching the demo. It seems Mr Garrelt was more about writing his opinion, rather than researching the facts.

I enjoy Mr Pranin's website, but he should have seen that Mr Garrelt's article as an opinion not informed article. People should be more concerned with printing articles that have been researched and confirmed through 1st hand accounts of said event. Save opinions for editorial pages.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It is good to try to "de-bunk" things that are perceived to be truths. Its the best way to learn more and challenge long held beliefs. Do not be reckless about the effort, Research and confirm. To sum it up, have an informed opinion and be more responsible with your words.

Now to lock myself in a hot bath to soak my battered bones after training all Saturday at the New England spring seminar( where Chiba sensei taught back to back classes. I need a long soak.

cheers!

PS

If you didnt go to the seminar and could have or should have gone, you missed out. I only made 1 day and I am sure I missed out even after taking all the saturday classes. Get out there and support your shihans. They wont be around forever. Its treasure and a treat to have Yamada sensei, Kanai sensei, Chiba Sensei all in the same event. I drove 250 miles(500 miles round trip) to get there to participate. And I got the 1st hand bruises to prove it.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

kung fu hamster
03-17-2003, 10:06 AM
OK, I've had enough of being bewildered by all these acronyms...for those of you who also cannot understand these folks, this site should provide some quick relief...

http://www.ucc.ie/cgi-bin/uncgi/acronym

:)

bob_stra
03-17-2003, 10:37 AM
OK, I've had enough of being bewildered by all these acronyms...for those of you who also cannot understand these folks, this site should provide some quick relief...

http://www.ucc.ie/cgi-bin/uncgi/acronym

:)
That's a cool little site. I've been plugging www.tinyurl.com lately myself ;-)

Back O/T

I don't understand why Ueshiba supposed mythical skills are such a topic of interest. Kano would be *destroyed* by todays Judo guys. It takes nothing away from the man. He was, is and will forever be the fountainhead of judo. Someone to respect. Similarly Osensei.

I think Sensei Tissier would show the old timers a thing or two ;-) I've got one of his clips (irimi vs kicks) - holy crap!

Cyrijl
03-17-2003, 10:55 AM
i don't think the point of the article was to say that O Sensei was not a miraculous man. I think the point is that we often see 'feats of strength' and interprete them within our own sphere uf understanding when the main point of the demo lies outside of our understanding...that's what i got out of it.

siwilson
03-17-2003, 11:16 AM
I think the article is interesting, but to me it seems to have been written from the view of setting out to "disprove", not "investigate".

Plus, we are lucky to have the experience of an Uke in this exercise with Mr Peter Goldsbury (hope we train one day) who can explain the roll of Uke. Please? :)

I have a copy of "Rendezvous with Adventure" and I will have to watch it again. In the photo it looks to me like they are pushing down and along the length of the staff. This makes much more sense to me.

As for "Ki" and anything mystical - I prefer Kancho Shioda's explanation: "Ki is the mastery of balance" or "the concentration of balance."

With respect to articles like this, what does it matter? Aikido is an amazing art and the only martial art that has captivated me so much. It is certainly real to me.

siwilson
03-17-2003, 11:20 AM
Kano would be *destroyed* by todays Judo guys. It takes nothing away from the man. He was, is and will forever be the fountainhead of judo. Someone to respect. Similarly Osensei.

Why do you think he would be "destroyed"?

paw
03-17-2003, 12:34 PM
Why do you think he would be "destroyed"?

Better athletes now. Waaaay better athletes.

bob_stra
03-17-2003, 01:14 PM
Why do you think he would be "destroyed"?

Destroyed is perhaps too harsh a word.

But.

There have been radical changes in the understanding of the human body since 1938. Radical.

Today's top judo competitors benifit from ancillary training, diet, re-cuparative techniques, drugs, video analysis etc way above and beyond what was available to Mr Kano.

(though he instigated much of what was to follow)

Sensei Kano was a phenom. The world of martial arts owes him the deepest of respect. No doubt that his skill reached dizzying heights.(Many thousands of times above my own pathetic judo skills ;-)

But 60+ yrs of evolution cannot be discounted by wishful thinking. For either Sensei Kano nor sensei Ueshiba.

Or else, we should all still be living in caves ;-)

(you could argue that it's a matter of skill. But over time, the repository of skill increases as well)

IMHO.

DGLinden
03-17-2003, 01:34 PM
Hey guys, I think what he is trying to really say is that he has bought into the mysticism concerning O' Sensei and is upset that this article purportedly debunks this alleged mysticism. It comes down to believers and disbelievers.

Mr. Goldbury gave a fine response but I don't think he addressed the real issue. Was O'Sensei in touch with a higher power?

Well, of course he was. So was Koichi Tohei and Osawa Sensei and a few others. They were actually able to do things that other people can't do and if you want to explain it with physics and/or physiology you will not be able to.

I've spent my last thirty years trying to explain how Osawa Sensei pinned me to a mat without touching me.... Can't do it. But he did it. Did it twice. I'd be kind of a fool to disbelieve it can be done just because I can't do it.

So in like mind, son, can you do what your sensei can, after just 2 years?

Peter Goldsbury
03-17-2003, 04:56 PM
Mr. Goldbury gave a fine response but I don't think he addressed the real issue.
I did not do this deliberately, believing as I do in the value of Occam's Razor. In any case, it is highly practical and you have to be on the end of it to see it.

siwilson
03-17-2003, 05:33 PM
Hey guys, I think what he is trying to really say is that he has bought into the mysticism concerning O' Sensei and is upset that this article purportedly debunks this alleged mysticism. It comes down to believers and disbelievers.
I don't know if you are talking to me or Adrian. If it is me, then I should say that I have not bought in to the "mysticism concerning O' Sensei". If you mean Adrian, I cannot comment. For myself, like I said before, 'I prefer Kancho Shioda's explanation: "Ki is the mastery of balance" or "the concentration of balance"!'

With regard to Kano Sensei:
Better athletes now. Waaaay better athletes.
&
Destroyed is perhaps too harsh a word.

But.

There have been radical changes in the understanding of the human body since 1938. Radical.

Today's top judo competitors benifit from ancillary training, diet, re-cuparative techniques, drugs, video analysis etc way above and beyond what was available to Mr Kano.
When Kano Sensei taught Judo was a martial art, now it is a martial sport. A lot has been lost with mant techniques unused due to the complex nature of mastering them.

I have been lucky to train Aikido under one of Mifune Sensei's past students, Thamby Rajah Sensei (who is in his last 70s), over the past few years, and he has effortlessly projected my 200lb mass up, down, splat! He did not have "re-cuparative techniques, drugs, video analysis etc.", but he did have amazing teachers - Mifune Sensei & Gozo Shioda Sensei.

Martial arts still do overcome size & strength, or should we pack up and go home.
Mr. Goldbury gave a fine response but I don't think he addressed the real issue. Was O'Sensei in touch with a higher power?
I do not believe that was the real issue. I believe the issue was whether it was real or not and I think Mr Goldbury gave a "fine responce" to that.
I've spent my last thirty years trying to explain how Osawa Sensei pinned me to a mat without touching me.... Can't do it. But he did it. Did it twice. I'd be kind of a fool to disbelieve it can be done just because I can't do it.
I'm sure you mean throw, because if anyone tried to pin me without touching me I would just get up! :)

I know what you mean. My teacher, Ted Stratton Sensei, would throw me and my Sempai around, but I could never work out or feel what he had done.

Best wishes.

siwilson
03-17-2003, 05:45 PM
"Last edited by siwilson on 03-18-2003 at 12:44 AM"

Yeah, dislexia set in again!

Edward
03-18-2003, 12:06 AM
I myself have seen this in a video shot at Iwama dojo in 1962. My first impression was that it was a fake. Reviewing the tape reconfirmed my first impression. So what?

I am sorry to tell you that the above trick is not aikido, neither is the unbendable arm, nor the unliftable body. They are just tricks meant to fool some simple minded people in to believing in the supernatural powers of aikido.

I don't care if Osensei did tricks like that. I don't believe that he had any supernatural powers. I am sure at the time the movie was shot, he didn't have much power left in him anyway.

I respect Osensei as the founder of aikido, and as the first teacher of aikido, the same way I respect my own teacher, and his teacher for the same reason. Osensei was probably not a saint as many believe, but he gave us aikido. That's enough feat by itself.

Edward
03-18-2003, 12:13 AM
BTW, I was present at a dinner party recently in the honor of a Shihan from the Aikikai Hombu. The guests were mostly Japanese but non-aikidoists. One lady asked the Shihan what is secret of aikido, and how it seems to work without much effort. He smiled and said: "Bio-mechanics".

My already big esteem for this Shihan augmented several folds.

bob_stra
03-18-2003, 12:23 AM
Martial arts still do overcome size & strength, or should we pack up and go home.
Hmm....I think this sums up my feeling on that.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=34850

adrian
03-18-2003, 01:49 AM
Mr Neagu,

I doubt whether the entire aikido world will collapse on the basis of one article, based on one photograph of what is really a continuous movement.

The uke on the right, next to Morihei Ueshiba, was my teacher in the UK and Japan and he is most certainly not a fake. He began training with Morihei Ueshiba when the latter was 72 years of age and was trained to become a very tough shihan. He now lives in San Diego and his name is Kazuo Chiba. If you like, I can introduce you to him and you might like to go and train with him--and ask him about the photograph.

Personally, I think the author of the article would have done better to seek out the people in the photograph, like Chiba Shihan, and interview them, before producing a whole load of what is really speculation.

Since I have trained for many years under the direction of many of Morihei Ueshiba's immediate disciples, who could walk their talk, I myself believe that what I am doing is not fake in any way. But this is my opinion and I am open to correction by more experienced members of this forum.

Finally, you say you have trained for 2 years, so I would put you at around 4th kyu level. Have you trained in other Japanese martial arts and do you think you own training in aikido has been 'fake' in any way by comparison? You train in Moldova, which does not have a resident shihan, so I am curious about who your teacher is.

Of course, I am not attacking your aikido credentials, but when I first saw the photograph, reproduced in many books and magazines, I did not think it was fake. Why? Because I myself have been uke in precisely the same situation, but not with Morihei Ueshiba. You can do the same technique empty-handed (with ukes grasping the arm). It does not matter whether you throw forwards or backwards. However, it is very difficult and I have never seen it done with more than 2 ukes. But it is an exercise, rather than a technique.

In my opinion, it is very similar to the technique known as shomen-uchi ikkyo. The purpose of the training is to learn various principles essential to aikido. If I wanted to kill or seriously disable someone "in the street", the last technque I would use is ikkyo, or whatever technique is shown in the photograph.

But your post was rather brief and I am not sure if I have understood you correctly.

Best regards,
So you believe that the article's author is wrong and O'Sensei could really do it ?

You it's if O'Sensei couldn't do you that's ok, no problem, the thing that makes me angry is that maybe, althouhg he couldn't do it he instructed his ukes to do push-pull just to impress people and show "his big power".

I don't think my training is a fake, i like it very much and the principles and O'Sensei's philosophy are very important to me.

adrian
03-18-2003, 02:04 AM
Mr Neagu,

Finally, you say you have trained for 2 years, so I would put you at around 4th kyu level. Have you trained in other Japanese martial arts and do you think you own training in aikido has been 'fake' in any way by comparison? You train in Moldova, which does not have a resident shihan, so I am curious about who your teacher is.

Best regards,
I'm 5'th kyu and i plan to test for 3 kyu this summer. My Sensei is a good student of Kanetsuka Sensei, 7th dan Shihan. I've trained Karate for a year a few years ago.

paw
03-18-2003, 06:13 AM
Si,
When Kano Sensei taught Judo was a martial art, now it is a martial sport. A lot has been lost with mant techniques unused due to the complex nature of mastering them.

I strongly reject the idea that judo is a martial sport. That a sporting aspect of judo is most well known is not sufficent evidence to the contrary.

If you want me to elaborate on my original statement, I would say, "way better athletes with just as good technique". In other words, modern athletes of the same size as the judo greats "back in the day" are stronger, faster, have better aerobic and anaerobic conditioning and are just as skilled technically.

Regards,

Paul

Peter Goldsbury
03-18-2003, 07:58 AM
Mr Neagu,

(1) The person on the right in the photograph was Kanetsuka Shihan's own teacher, in England, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, when I also started training.

(2) I have never said anything about the Founder being a fake. I never knew the Founder, so all I have to go on are the people who were his direct students, like Chiba Shihan. My understanding is that the Founder never instructed his ukes what to do and how to take ukemi. He called thenm up and threw them. If they were good, he used them again; if not, he used them less often.

(3) I have read the article on the Aikido Journal website. It has generated a fair spectrum of opinion on the accompanying thread. As I suggested, I believe the author would have done well to interview the people in the photograph who are still alive. This is what I would have done.

Best wishes with your training,

PRapoza
03-18-2003, 07:59 AM
I am a bit of a doubting Thomas myself. I do not believe everything I am told nor do I discount things I can not explain. I do trust in my own experience and development.

Aikido is not "dead" weight lifting. Of course O'Sensei couldn't stop a speeding train with a flick of the wrist. People are not "dead weight" and therefore can be dealt with differently than inanimate objects.

Any good martial artist learns principles. With these principles we learn to attack (uke) and respond (nage). During a technique both uke and nage are either safe or open. Meaning we could either not be able to be attacked by a wise martial artist or easily be attacked. We are uke and nage using these important principles. If we do not know when we are open we are dead.

I have been studying aikido for thirteen years now and in my experience I have "felt" and done things that I could not explain nor do I have a desire to explain them. I have found there is something beyond my rational intellect and it is there I find aikido. Before discounting any seemingly "impossible feat" please take the time and devote the effort to learning good ukemi. You may be surprised at what you find.

________________

Respectfully,

Paul Rapoza

ian
03-18-2003, 08:11 AM
Chinese and Japanese mysticism differ from modern western approaches to knowledge in that we tend to be reductionist - finding out why things work - with e.g. TCM or ki it seems that they are evidence based, but the explaination is not i.e. circles of distruction in meridians etc.

For me ki is real in that it is a very simple and easily understood model of how to maximise your body mechanics. I actually find visualising energy flow useful. However as a scientist I'm not convinced by the mythology that suggests the reasons behind many of these things.

I believe Ueshiba was an immensely strong man and extremely competitive and devoted to becoming a top class martial artist. It is possible to down someone with one finger, and aikido does work. However I think it would take someone of exceptional commitment to actually reach the level of Ueshiba. I also believe that what we do in Aikido is not as dangerous as what Ueshiba learnt to do in aikijitsu, though it may be more suited to modern self-defence.

There are loads of 'tricks' in aikido, but at the end of the day I don't think aikido is anything more than fully utilising body mechanics and psychology to overcome an opponent.

ian
03-18-2003, 08:15 AM
P.S. I have heard that there is a book with lots of physical tricks (including this one) in it - I expect that would explain it better than the supposition in this article.

My theory about this trick was that the same process as unbendable arm was used i.e. you push (extend) along the jo as they exert force, making it difficult for them actually to push directly against it. If this is so, it is an excellent example of aikido, because that is what we do in all of outr body movement.

aiki_what
03-18-2003, 08:56 AM
I think a significant amount of behavorial conditioning goes on in Aikido at a variety of levels (social, physical, mental, etiquette, etc) which leads to a conditioned response between both uke and nage...particularly at the advanced levels.

I think that this contributes as much as anything to the mystical/ no touch / effortless throws we read/encounter in AIkido culture. Hmmm, an interesting sociological study in a cooperative culture?

happysod
03-18-2003, 09:25 AM
Mark, agree with you on this one, that's why I like training with beginners. They don't always react how you'd expect (turning into the painful position rather than away, staring interestedly at the blow coming for their face etc.)

Speaking purely for myself, at least some of the "effortless" throws performed with me as uke have been down to a foreknowledge of what comes next... Where would you draw the line between being "on the train" for your own protection and "diving" and is this what the picture's showing - not a trick perhaps but a recognition on the attackers' part of what that nice little 'ol man will do if you try and be clever...

otto
03-18-2003, 12:45 PM
My understanding is that the Founder never instructed his ukes what to do and how to take ukemi. He called thenm up and threw them. If they were good, he used them again; if not, he used them less often.
Mr.Goldsbury.

Could you please elaborate a bit more on the possible basis of how the founder deemed one student good or not for demonstrating techniques/principles?

I assume before hand that the student needed to have good ukemi and provide a powerful and sincere attack , but would that be enough to differ his various students? , because at this stage i think the technical level on those aspects would be very much the same between them.

Best Regards and sorry for the Off Topic.

Plus KI!

DGLinden
03-18-2003, 01:44 PM
Mr Wilson,

I thought I was very clear. Osawa was not touching me. I could not get up. He held his had 12 inches above my chest and motioned me to rise. I could not. I believed he was standing on my gi. I looked at both his feet. He was not standing on my gi. I looked up and he motioned again and again I could not gt up and then realized what he was doing. He smiled and moved his hand away. I was then able to rise.

Then he did it again.

I was then nidan and not a novice. My teacher was with me and when I sat down he was indignant and mouthed "thats Bu-- sh--! NOBODY can do that" Osawa Sensei must have caught the look because he called him up to uke then and pinned him the same was, as well.

I am not a believer in magic, mysticism, or 'the force, Luke' I teach the old hard way and do believe in boimechanics. Go figure. But I know that there was something else there, then, and wish you the benefit of someone blessing you someday. I guess there is no other way to believe.

siwilson
03-18-2003, 04:13 PM
Interesting, but I guess I need to put my fingures in the wound first.

I have seen some amazing things from some amazing people over the years, so I will not discount anything, but I am very much a realist.

Best wishes.

batemanb
03-19-2003, 02:03 AM
Mr Wilson,

I thought I was very clear. Osawa was not touching me. I could not get up. He held his had 12 inches above my chest and motioned me to rise. I could not. I believed he was standing on my gi. I looked at both his feet. He was not standing on my gi. I looked up and he motioned again and again I could not gt up and then realized what he was doing. He smiled and moved his hand away. I was then able to rise.
I have seen and experienced something very similar. Nakao Sensei (Aikikai 6th Dan, deshi of Yamaguchi Sensei) did much the same thing to me in Japan a few years back, I have also seen Endo Sensei do the same. Nakao Sensei did in fact get everyone to try it for a while during the class. I have only really practiced it that one time (although I have played with it for a few seconds every now and then), I have no way to explain it other than it has to do with the connection between tori and uke. When I do it, it only seems to work when uke is flat on his back trying to sit up, if uke tries rolling out of it, I can't stop them, however, I couldn't roll out of it when Nakao Sensei did it to me, go figure:confused:.

Regards

Bryan

Bronson
03-19-2003, 03:44 AM
My old tai chi instructor used to catch punches blindfolded. He would let you bring the blindfold and tie it on any way you liked...he wouldn't touch it. Then you'd stand in front of him and start punching FAST, any angle any rythym. He would catch every one of them. He didn't sweep them away either he would reach straight out and catch it. We once tried it with racquet balls. He batted them all away except the last one which instead of being tossed was thrown directly at his face. He caught that one :freaky:

Bronson

DGLinden
03-19-2003, 07:13 AM
I have discussed this with several people who are active in the pursuit of knowledge concerning shamanism in Asia and South America. They all seem to accept and understand the concept. I don't know if this is reassuring to me or not. I accept that this type of power is available to those who seek it, and that the pursuit must be over many years, but - at what cost and to what benefit? I also accept the skepticism, but to no avail, I cannot deny the experience.

Glad that others have had the chance to feel it.

Cyrijl
03-19-2003, 08:00 AM
I think the phantom pinning is due to your psychological conditioning in the face of authority. You knew you were not expected to get up so you didn't let yourself get up. If the teacher could stop people without touching them, he would be ruler of the world. Creating and spreading peace by being able to stop violent enemies without physical confrontation...

Edward
03-19-2003, 09:18 AM
When I do it, it only seems to work when uke is flat on his back trying to sit up, if uke tries rolling out of it, I can't stop them, however, I couldn't roll out of it when Nakao Sensei did it to me, go figure
A Hombu instructor did it to me and asked me to stand up. The first time I couldn't. The second time, I rolled out of it. The instructor looked at me scornfully because he specifically asked me to try to stand up, not to roll.

As to the explanation, I think it's very simple. When you're lying flat on your back, you need to gather some momentum in order to stand up. If one puts their hand in front of your face at exactly the distance required for you to gather the momentum, you will feel helpless. I think the distance is very important. Too close and you can push the hand up with your forehead, too far and you can gather your momentum. No magic involved :)

Choku Tsuki
03-19-2003, 10:34 AM
I think a significant amount of behavorial conditioning goes on in Aikido at a variety of levels (social, physical, mental, etiquette, etc) which leads to a conditioned response between both uke and nage...particularly at the advanced levels.

I think that this contributes as much as anything to the mystical/ no touch / effortless throws we read/encounter in AIkido culture. Hmmm, an interesting sociological study in a cooperative culture?
Mark, you nailed it on the head. I try to 'believe' in as little as possible. To me 'believing' means either one has given up the search or one is more comfortable with a lie than the truth. And words just frame a perception; I prefer to experience these things myself and try to remain open to new things.

--Chuck

Erik
03-19-2003, 01:19 PM
Edward, you are very close to right.

To anyone who is interested please try the following:

1) Lay down face up.

2) Make sure your feet and arms are not touching anything other than the floor.

3) Try to rise straight up.

I will be extending my ki from California, and it's SO POWERFUL that you will not be able to get up. :grr:

If you wander into a gym, on the other hand, you will see lots of people doing this exercise. It's called a crunch. It's a good stomach exercise too.

Without momentum you will not be able to get up.

aiki_what
03-19-2003, 01:32 PM
Erik....Damn you!!! Let me up this minute!!!

siwilson
03-19-2003, 05:11 PM
Dorian Yates told me to tell you that your Ki is weak!

:D

bob_stra
03-20-2003, 12:42 AM
Dorian Yates told me to tell you that your Ki is weak!

:D
His body parts are still functional? ;-)

(that man has had more injuries then...well...other men I guess)