judgement & reaction

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[Qatana]

At 6:30 this morning I was badly disturbed by quotes in two postings I read. As i consider a major part of my aikido training to be Keeping my Big Mouth Shut, I decided to not react as impulsively as I would have liked, a decision I have made many times in the short while I've been on this forum.

The first one was a member dissing another member for having an abrasive personality. While yes, the member referred to does indeed have an abrasive manner, does anybody have the right to judge that this is Wrong? Should I bow out of this forum immediately as well, as i am perfectly aware that i also have an abrasive personality, which is one of the very reasons i practice aikido.
It is a huge effort to learn how to present one's opinion in a way that is as "holographically" inoffensive as possible, i know, this has been a process that has taken me through a lot of intense and intensive practices. But the first thing i had to realize in order to change ANY of my behaviors, were that I had to recognise and Accept them as part of myself.
the people who know me well accept me as I am also accept that what I sound like is not perhaps what I really mean. I don't Mean to sound cynical or negative or angry or intimidating but that is how i am percieved. So I come to aikido to learn how to communicate effectively.

The second quote referred to "hippie wierdos who come to aikido for reasons other than self defense."

Oh darn, another strike against me.How will i ever fit in to the aiki community if my incentive to practice is specifically on a psycho-spiritual basis, i am there to specifically learn how Not to fight. How Not to start an argument every time someone says something which is incorrect, inaccurate or if I simply have a differing opinion. How Not to be percieved as the aggressor even when i am defending myself. How to make myself understood without having to shove myself down somebody's throat.

But it seems that these are not valid reasons to train. And that i am the Wrong kind of Person to study aikido. How can there be harmony when too many people are deciding who should and should not undertake any given practice.

i've been combing the archives to find out if there has been anybody "like me" who has been where I am and gotten to the place i would like to be, and haven't found any...but it would be nice to know that its OK to be an abrasive, argumental, confrontational, honest spiritual seeker and still practice a "martial art".

[Michael Neal]

There is plenty of judgement by "hippies" against those who do not practice Aikido the way the like as well.

[shihonage]

Sometimes we all lose sight of this simple truth ...

[Michael Neal]

I mean,

There is plenty of judgement by "hippies" against those who do not practice Aikido the way they like as well.
Sometimes we all lose sight of this simple truth ...
I feel guilty for laughing at this ... it is pretty damn mean. Good point though.

[DCP]

Sometimes you have to categorize certain things under the heading "not my problem."

It doesn't matter what you do or why you do it, someone somewhere will find fault with it.

So you're abrasive. A gem cannot be polished without friction.

So you're a hippie type. O'Sensei was a hippie type (I'm sure that statement will tick some people off, but wasn't he speaking about peace and love before the "hippies"?)

Human beings are a work in progress from birth until death. We need differences in order to learn and grow. Accepting reasonable differences and resolving conflict shows maturity. If people cannot accept these differences, they haven't reached that stage of maturity (therefore, not your problem).

But, then again I may be wrong:freaky: . So then you need to get stay out of the dojo and stop visiting this forum you abrasive hippie freak!:D

[Jim ashby]

Aleksey. I am very sad that you would put this image out. You or I am one chromosome away from being in this race.

[Erik]

Sometimes we all lose sight of this simple truth ...

Sometimes, though, it's fun to argue, but arguing with Neil Mick does feel that way at times. :)

[Qatana]

um, would i now be considered egotistical if i politely request that this thread please stay on topic? these are Very Serious issues for me, even though i may have sounded sarcastic and/or cynical.

thank you

[tedehara]

I would hate to spent my time practicing self-defense, when I could have been learning Aikido.Balancing out the viewpoints.

[aikidoc]

I can understand your concern about people dissing others. However, the person of the abrasive personality had just attacked the person making the comment. He has a history of being very judgmental and attacking people on a regular basis. I hope this does not offend you but this person basically got back a lot less than he has dished out.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

I don't see what's to get "Very Serious" about. So some people said mean things about you... so what? Unless someone is hazing you or throwing you out of your dojo, try ignoring it. Does everyone in the world have to like you and think you're wonderful?

[Qatana]

Kevin please read my post gain. I never implied that anybody has said anything about Me.

John, i know this person has said a lot of insensitive and cruel sounding things, yet he (as well as one former member) has some extremely sensible and valid points to make.

my point is that i Want to change the way i present myself or make the point i am trying to make. And I am wondering if anyone out there has achieved what i am attempting.

Some people think its the other guy who needs to change- so I can try to change the world's negative perception of who I am and create a huge struggle against the rest of the world when they disagree, or I can take that struggle within myself and change the way I relate.

Thats what I want aikido to be for me. The place I can, i guess be my own uke.

somwtimes people are percieved as attacking when they are only trying to Share.maybe it would be good practice to , before jumoping down somebody's throat in self defense, we ask first--is this person intentionally attacking or does it only sound that way?

when I am able to ask myself that question in any situation where i feel threatened, before i "hit back" that is what i consider aikido.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

I reread the post. Seems like a minor misinterpretation that doesn't detract from my point - there are about two sentences about who said what to whom, then reams of high-drama stuff about you and your beleagured feelings. Seems unreasonable to me to demand others take such solipsistic bellyaching Very Seriously. I thought the stuff about making fun of retarded people was more interesting.

[Michael Neal]

The first one was a member dissing another member for having an abrasive personality. While yes, the member referred to does indeed have an abrasive manner, does anybody have the right to judge that this is Wrong?
Yes, anybody does have the right to judge that this is wrong, we have the right to judge anything we want.

I will make a judgement that I am sure you will be displeased with. I think people who study Aikido and completely leave out the "martial" aspect are ruining Aikido. I think maybe they should start their own religion/empty exercise thing and call it something like "granola do" and leave us all alone.

[Qatana]

that is an opinion. you are entitled to your opinion.i also have an opinion. and i shall keep it to myself.

[Michael Neal]

Yes you are entitled to your opinion and you should not get upset so easily about things posted here.

Believe me, if we all had the same opinion I guarantee this forum would be very unsuccesful.

I think alot is misinterpreted over the internet because you can't see the persons actual demeanor. Some people may think some things are said with anger and disdain when they are not.

There are plenty of people here that are abrasive on occasion and this definately includes me. But if you talked to me in person my words would not seem so abrasive.

But maybe this is different with other people here.

[aikidoc]

Jo:

I would call making threats a fairly obvious form of attacking. I have real thick skin but when someone operates off an emotional opinion and attacks people without justification, especially when historically inaccurate, it is difficult to just let it go by. Personally, I could give a damn what the person says to me since I operate under the philosophy that how you talk about and treat others says a lot about you as a person and little if nothing about the person you are dissing. However, in an aikido forum it would be nice to see people follow the rules suggested by Jun to treat our fellow aikidoka with a certain amount of courtesy. You don't have to like what they say and a good argument can be a learning experience for everyone involved. However, to make attacks on the person and slander the other person is in my opinion immature and irresponsible. Many of us like to chat about topics of interest without all the static. True I cannot be in the mind of others and speak for their intent. However, words frequently do not leave much to the imagination. My 2 cents.

[Michael Neal]

I am wondering where all of this is coming from anyway, what posts and by who are talking about here?

[shihonage]

One by me, another by Ian Hurst (I think ?).

[Kelly Allen]

Is this one of the posts your talking about? If it is, I was merely telling Mike that insulting me, my Country, and just about everyone else he disagrees with in this forum will only result in him being ostrisized. That wasn't a diss. It was merely the trueth. This applies to everyone who is insulting when their opinions are not agreed with.

Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote: No Kelly. But you are behind the times — this thread has been dead for weeks. Where've you been? Shovelling snow or learning how to spell?

Kelly Allen wrote:

Lets see here. From the 6th which was the last post I saw, to the 13th which was the post you are refering to, is far from weeks Mike. I may be a poor speller, but you're a terrible mathimatician.

And a thread is only finished when people lose intrest in the topic. Your insults serve only to show people on this Forum what kind of abrasive personality you have, and ultimatly they will never take you seriously, and begin to ignore you. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go shovel some snow.

[Qatana]

No it was most certainly not the thread Kelly is referring to..

I believe yes that it was Aleksey who claimed that , and these are MY words, not a quote but My inference that "people with abrasive personalities are not good people".

And yes. Aleksey, the other was Ian about the hippies. Thank you for finding them for me!

I was not denying that the man has said some extremely insensitive things.

But several people have also said some pretty insensitive things on this thread

. And that I , being a person with not only an abrasive personality , also an uncontrollable temper, feel that I am being judged as "not a good person".

so actually this is an experiment for me to observe my own behavior and reaction after putting myself in the line of fire.

Some (insert negative quality here) people are trying to be funny, some are trying to be smart. I am trying to be understood without resorting to any of the habits or characteristics that make me a "bad person". To allow this to be a discussion instead of an argument or worse.

But I am not in any way defending anybody's cruelty or insensitivity.I am just saying that it disturbs me that people are judged by how they present themselves, whatever the reason.

[creinig]

But several people have also said some pretty insensitive things on this thread
"On this thread" as "on the thread we're currently 'in'"? No. IMHO it's pretty hard to find threads (on any topic) on the internet that contain less "insensitive things". Don't take *anything* said on the 'net too seriously - that's very bad for your blood pressure :)

[PhilJ]

Jo,

I think it's hard not to judge people when they share their thoughts. It makes us human. It's hard for me to see some kinds of posts too, where it seems like someone is being abrasive or harmful in a deliberate sense.

Aikido is a tool to me, not an answer book. It teaches us tons of great ways to handle our bodies and our minds, but doesn't force us into compliance. I was once told, "When you are told to be a certain way or do a certain thing, you stop being an adult. You're now a child." Aikido is a great tool to have in your pocket.

People will be people. They will pick on someone, telling their 'victims' they are "such and such". When it comes time to tell the 'bully' something, they resent it, not fully realizing the irony. They feel like a child without understanding they just did something similar.

We can, however, be adults. We can be frank and honest and sincere, but we should never sacrifice our own humanity (or others') for the sake of 'making a point'. This is not about victory, and not about winning, right? It's about restoring harmony and humanity to our 'attackers' and ourselves. I wonder if that's the budo O'sensei had in mind.

*Phil

[happysod]

Yep, I'm one of the culprits

Jo, if sorry you found my post so offensive. It was actually a joking reference to the fact that most of my association (including myself) are less "budo" than many who post here. We're a Ki aikido group and as such, I've found certain other styles rather sniffy about our "dancing" style and lack of embracing in totality "the warrior spirit". Rather than get annoyed, I've happily embraced their mistaken view and have had a laugh at my own expense more than once in these forums.

However, I would also like to ask whether you'd first checked any previous postings by me or my fellow dastard, to get a clearer view of the person and context. You yourself said

"I am just saying that it disturbs me that people are judged by how they present themselves, whatever the reason."

People in these forums normally will not meet and only show their character in a succession of posts, a single posting may not be the best way of "judging" someone.

I believe that at no point have I ever suggested there is only one reason to train aikido. Indeed, in the very post you refer to I was trying to indicate that self defense and aikido, while they may be linked, are not the only reasons to train. The inverted comments around the phrase you objected to were there in place of the smileys so many use as, unfortunately, these do not display on my machine.

This is a mistake I have also made. My inability to see the smiley in a previous posting by TomE led me to answer what was a jokey response as a facetious reply and react accordingly and, as it turned out, excessively.

I make no apologies for my sense humour, but I take your point that I must be unambiguous in future posts.

[Qatana]

Thank you Ian for that clarification. As i said, i read that posting at 6:30 AM so probably didn't even notice "quote" marks.

Sometimes, even with quotes and smilies, words on a screen/page can be misinterpreted. i know from experience, even spoken word can be heard "wrong". like even people who know me very well sometimes think that when i make a "positive" statement that i am being facetious because they expect everything i say to be caustic and cynical.

i am finding it a bit amusing that some folks who are of the opinion that there is only One Way and One Reason to practice Aikido want us all to be open -minded about combining techniques.now, if i had several different martial arts under my (white) belt and was in a self-defense situation, would i worry about combining any tools i have at my disposal to get out of it? but in the dojo, if i'm there for Aikido, i will Do Aikido...

and if i may allow my admittedly huge ego to make a comment, i think i did some Aikido here on this thread....

[Cyrijl]

wow...and people say i am sensitive...

[Qatana]

ooop

i seem to have confused two people with similar names in a previous post on this thread. my apologies to both of you for thinking you were the same person....

[mike lee]

That wasn't a diss. It was merely the trueth.
What's a "trueth?" (That you still haven't mastered third-grade English?)

The skin of the average poster on this forum is so thin that it could be marketed for coffee filters! Drip, drip, drip.

Suggestion: Grow some nuts and stop playing with Barbie dolls.

(Is this the kind of post you whiners love? :D )

Drop and give me 20!

[happysod]

Mike you sweetie, it's been too long since we had one of these from you - thanks, I've got that warm fuzzy feeling back

[mike lee]

Any guy named Happysod can spill a pint or two (or six or eight) with me anytime! In fact, I'll buy.

As for you other worms — don't be afraid to get your dresses dirty from doing a few dozen pushups now and then! :D

Five hundred sword cuts? I won't even ask. :rolleyes:

Here's a tune: "Where have all the martial artists gone, long time ago. Where have all the martial artists gone, off doing Gracie Jujutsu ..."

[happysod]

Jo, owed you more of an apology than I realised. In one of the posts showing as I type, I'd even missed off the quotation marks, sos, no wonder you got annoyed - hippie wierdos is one of my favorite phrases for our lot thanks to a particular karate dojo in Hull (oh the fun of youth and testosterone)

Mike, free beer for spilling sounds fine. If you're ever in London, look us up, I can promise you some terrible aikido (a sort of watership down meets night of the living dead), but decent beer. By the way, do you need a key change in the Gracie song?

[Qatana]

oh hi Mike, lovely to meet you too.

Suggestion: Grow some nuts and stop playing with Barbie dolls.[/QUOTE]
hmmm, are we speaking metaphorically or are you suggesting i grow some almonds?

the artists i work for might be interested in painting a hermaphrodite but i think my boyfriend might object

[TheU2Fly]

i can feel the love on this forum :D

[Kelly Allen]

What's a "trueth?" (That you still haven't mastered third-grade English?)

The skin of the average poster on this forum is so thin that it could be marketed for coffee filters! Drip, drip, drip.

Suggestion: Grow some nuts and stop playing with Barbie dolls.

(Is this the kind of post you whiners love? :D )

Drop and give me 20!
My point exactly! 1...2...3...4...grunt 5...6...7 huff puff 8... etc. to 20.

[drDalek]

Wait a minute! You mean there are *serious* discussions going on on this forum?

I was subscribed to a little forum (http://forums.somethingawful.com/) a while ago and let me tell you kids, nothing builds character and a thick skin (atleast for your interweb persona) like a regular roasting from a bunch of cynical lonely nerds.

Sometimes we all need to go through a kind of "boot camp" even sensitive artistic forum users like ourselves to know whats worth our time getting "badly disturbed" about and whats completely irrelevant. (hint: the internet and everything on it falls into the latter category)

[mike lee]

hmmm, are we speaking metaphorically or are you suggesting i grow some almonds?

Metaphorically speaking, I'm crazy about women with nuts (read guts). My current heroine is Serena Williams. I also like Su Ri Pak a lot. She can be tenacious on the links.

Can't think of any South Afrikaners I really like. But I loved the way Nelson Mandela layed into Bush a couple of weeks ago.

Guts! Ja! I love it.

(Where have all the aikidoists gone, long time ago? Where have all the aikidoists gone; off to Gracie's dojo.)

Yes — there seems to be a key change there.

Thanks for the invite Happysod. Never been to Europe. I'd love to hit London and then Dublin someday. Then I'll probably need to head to the Mao Clinic for a liver transplant after enjoying all the great pubs over there! :D

I hope the rest of you learn your lesson soon — I hate to have to spell things out, although it probably wouldn't help anyway.

[ikkainogakusei]

I'd love to hit London and then Dublin someday. Then I'll probably need to head to the Mao Clinic for a liver transplant after enjoying all the great pubs over there! :D

I hope the rest of you learn your lesson soon — I hate to have to spell things out, although it probably wouldn't help anyway.
Okay so maybe this won't be funny to the rest of you, but when I first read this I read

M-a-o as in "Chairman" rather than Mayo as in the medical clinic. Being that you are from Taiwan Mike, I think you'd be taking some risks going to the Mao clinic. :D Maybe not, but keep the liver you've got just in case.

:D :circle: :D

[cindy perkins]

Thin-skinned, sensitive, ego or whatever -- I think Jo has opened a good one here. The point is the use of every experience, including the forum, as an opportunity to practice aikido. Recognize the energy, harmonize with it, don't freeze or oppose it, let the harmful force go by you without letting it push you off balance, use what of it you can. Keep at it!

[Qatana]

thanks Cindy, for Getting what i'm saying.

South Africa????

[shihonage]

I was subscribed to a little forum (http://forums.somethingawful.com/) a while ago and let me tell you kids, nothing builds character and a thick skin (atleast for your interweb persona) like a regular roasting from a bunch of cynical lonely nerds.
True.

[DaveForis]

Interesting. Very interesting.

Jo, you have my respect (even though brash people often annoy me (although that's because I'm the complete opposite, which can be considered an equal failing, so I'm learning to be a little more brash myself) and I fully admit that at some point in the future you may do so. :)). It takes a lot of courage and effort to face down your demons and try to make you a better you. Most people do waste their lives throwing judgements onto others and decreeing what they should do. In my experience, there are two kinds of people, the people who look for flaws in the world that need to be fixed, and the people who look for flaws in themselves that need to be fixed. The former tend to create more chaos and strife (looks up at the thread, and everyone's postings. :))

I think ya('ll) did pretty well. Hopefully next time you'll do even better. Keep up the good work. :)

Hmm. This has been a pretty good lesson in awareness too. Spiffy. :)

Doncha love it when those irate argument threads leave ya with a warm fuzzy feeling? :D

[mike lee]

I think ya('ll) did pretty well. Hopefully next time you'll do even better. Keep up the good work.

Someday I wanna grow up to be just like you.

[Qatana]

you Are just like me

[George S. Ledyard]

Whether you are of the Aikido is a martial art or the Aikido is a spiritual Path camp (or you think it's both) shouldn't make any difference. People who go around and purposely cause **** wherever they go haven't understood a thing about what the point of training is.

No matter what your preferences for training are, Aikido training, or any other martial art or combat training for that matter, is not about making enemies. The person who has nothing better to do than to go around making enemies in order to get attention is pathetic. In a warrior society he'd be dead. The old adage that an armed society is a polite society is somewhat true. If every person you spoke with carried three feet of razor sharp steel or packed a hand gun you'd take quite a bit of care how you communicated with them.

As martial artists I think we should all communicate with each other as if we were in person and were armed. The consequences of letting a disagreement get out of hand in real life can be the destruction of a life. People who fancy themselves as serious about their Aikido training but indulge their aggressions while hiding behind the distance and the anonymity of the internet simply reveal that they have not trained seriously and not understood what they have done.

What is the point of reaching old age and realizing that you went through life alienating people. What kind of skill is that. These people end up isolated, disrespected, and ignored. They are very lonely people and should be pitied. There is simply no point in getting into fights with them. I will occasionally get sucked in myself when something really dumb is being put out but that is my own suki (opening) and I am working on how not to get sucked in like that.

There are several types of folks around. There are some who no matter what happens can remain gentlemen. Peter Goldsbury Sensei is my own idea of how one should deport himself. I use him as my model although I fall short oft times. These folks are few and far between.

There is the larger group of folks who are pretty civilized in their actions unless they perceive that they have been slighted and then they go into a feeding frenzy. They can not resist the need to respond in kind but don't usually initiate negative attacks.

Then there are the truly obnoxious few. These people have nothing better to do than cause trouble. They seek out the members of the larger group of "responders" and instigate. There is no purpose to their actions other than to stir things up. As with little children who are neglected they feel that even negative attention is better than no attention.

It is easy to do this on the internet. It would be harder to do this within a dojo or on the street. Eventually they'd find someone who was less than enlightened, someone who wouldn't feel like it was a personal failure to let someone this immature draw them out, and they'd get the punky beat out of them.

Training all comes down do developing a clear sense about who you want to be and then having the will to be that person. I can't imagine anyone choosing to be an obnoxious jerk so I have to assume that they have simply not paid attention to what they are doing. It's a lack of awareness; certainly a failure of training in my mind.

[aikidoc]

Excellent.

[akiy]

Thank you, George, for your excellent thoughts.

I remember how George Simcox used to communicate on the Aikido-L mailing list. Regardless of how heated the discussion may have been, he always responded in a level-headed, mature, and positive manner.

I always try, very hard, to communicate on the Internet in the same manner as I would if I were talking to someone else "in person." I put "in person" in quotes since, in reality, I am talking to everyone here in person -- just on a website rather than face to face.

So, please, folks. When posting here, please keep in mind that the very first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." If you are unable to do so, please find another venue for your thoughts.

-- Jun

[mike lee]

Eventually they'd find someone who was less than enlightened, someone who wouldn't feel like it was a personal failure to let someone this immature draw them out, and they'd get the punky beat out of them.

So St. George — who would you like to beat the "punky" out of?

[mike lee]

you Are just like me

In no way, shape or form.

[Kelly Allen]

George that was well said. I too pity the people who need attention so badly they have to aggitate others to get it. I personally try to explain to the offencive person the consiquences of his demeenor, once. Unfortunatly this rarely helps and inevitably I begin to either take the person with a grain of salt or I ignore them all together. :do:

[mike lee]

I personally try to explain to the offencive (sic) person the consiquences of his demeenor (sic), once. Unfortunatly (sic)...
sdfs sdflksfi j sdffdf v dfdfdfdsfd sdffkvojdif sdfpfd!!!

[Kelly Allen]

sdfs sdflksfi j sdffdf v dfdfdfdsfd sdffkvojdif sdfpfd!!!
Where's my salt? Shake shake shake.

[Qatana]

thanks George and Dave for your insights.

Mike, you are so much like me its scary, but i'm trying to do something about that.

[mike lee]

Mike, you are so much like me its scary, but i'm trying to do something about that.

Don't be so sure. I walk where angels fear to tread.

The truth of the matter is I may be a bit different in person. In fact, I'm a perfect gentleman. Nevertheless, I still wouldn't put up with George's subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle bullying tactics. As a result of his personal insecurities, he continues to try to throw his weight around, at least figuratively speaking. I've fought people who thought they were bigger than me all my life. No big thing.

The truth always comes out in the end, even through your own verbal slights. If you were truly sincere about changing that nasty behaviour, you'd skip that junk and remain positive. Instead, you just failed another test, as did George with his "punky" comment and his feigned sense of pity.

[aikidoc]

"So, please, folks. When posting here, please keep in mind that the very first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." If you are unable to do so, please find another venue for your thoughts."

"So St. George — who would you like to beat the "punky" out of?" "sdfs sdflksfi j sdffdf v dfdfdfdsfd sdffkvojdif sdfpfd!!!"

Ostensibly, Jun some people just do not get it! We can only hope for that other venue.

[wilmking]

Oh my....

i just read this thread and if it wouldnt be so sad, i would be laughing hard. insults left and right, different opinions, personalities. then some clear thoughts from experienced members and some inexperienced replies. i am in no way close to a saint, nor very experienced, and i dont want to insult anyone, but people, lean back, relax!

some thoughts from alaska

martin

[mike lee]

Ostensibly, Jun some people just do not get it! We can only hope for that other venue.

Talk about not getting it.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

I won't comment directly on the mosquito problem in here, but I think Mr. Ledyard's analysis is a little too simplistic in its generalization, and posits an ultimately undesireable ideal.

While much of what is said about instigators and jerks rings true, I am wary about making such sweeping generalizations about the lives and minds of people based upon a few internet events. It seems like taking some fairly plausible insights about psychological dynamics and stretching them way too far in making summary judgements about people. People are complex, and have different facets and personnae in different contexts and simply at different times. People can be occasionally angry, cantankerous, mischevious, or enthusiastic about games that seem cruel to others without being abject losers or simpletons whose character can easily be summed up and dismissed in a few sentences. I think this is a good thing. It makes life interesting, and it makes for good art, literature, movies...

Likewise, I think to posit an ideal state wherein everyone is always magnanimous, considerate, and "postitive" is also naively simplistic. To me, such a utopian condition sounds like a numbingly Huxley-esque hell. Which is more fun to read, Shakespeare or B.F.Skinner? It is the dark side of our nature, our propensity to be carried away by irrational passions, and to make mistakes that makes life interesting. It seems to be a beautiful thing when someone becomes an enlightened, beatific do-gooder, but I think this is usually the end result of a long and messy path, and such transformations come about organically from within - not from aping high-sounding ideals or following rules.

In the context of the internet, I don't think flaming and instigation is really that big of a deal. Although not my principal hobby, I enjoy a little jab and snip here and there myself. I have become infurated by troll-like behavior in the past, but I have never seen this as anything other than my problem for taking it seriously in the first place. Every society has it's scapegoats, jesters, and clowns... they add to the mix. On a forum, so long as they don't come to dominate the discourse in terms of mood or sheer posting volume, I say let them perform their function.

[George S. Ledyard]

I won't comment directly on the mosquito problem in here, but I think Mr. Ledyard's analysis is a little too simplistic in its generalization, and posits an ultimately undesireable ideal.

While much of what is said about instigators and jerks rings true, I am wary about making such sweeping generalizations about the lives and minds of people based upon a few internet events. It seems like taking some fairly plausible insights about psychological dynamics and stretching them way too far in making summary judgements about people. People are complex, and have different facets and personnae in different contexts and simply at different times. People can be occasionally angry, cantankerous, mischevious, or enthusiastic about games that seem cruel to others without being abject losers or simpletons whose character can easily be summed up and dismissed in a few sentences. I think this is a good thing. It makes life interesting, and it makes for good art, literature, movies...

Likewise, I think to posit an ideal state wherein everyone is always magnanimous, considerate, and "postitive" is also naively simplistic. To me, such a utopian condition sounds like a numbingly Huxley-esque hell. Which is more fun to read, Shakespeare or B.F.Skinner? It is the dark side of our nature, our propensity to be carried away by irrational passions, and to make mistakes that makes life interesting. It seems to be a beautiful thing when someone becomes an enlightened, beatific do-gooder, but I think this is usually the end result of a long and messy path, and such transformations come about organically from within - not from aping high-sounding ideals or following rules.

In the context of the internet, I don't think flaming and instigation is really that big of a deal. Although not my principal hobby, I enjoy a little jab and snip here and there myself. I have become infurated by troll-like behavior in the past, but I have never seen this as anything other than my problem for taking it seriously in the first place. Every society has it's scapegoats, jesters, and clowns... they add to the mix. On a forum, so long as they don't come to dominate the discourse in terms of mood or sheer posting volume, I say let them perform their function.
I agree. It's really impossible to describe anyone in a couple of paragraphs. It is true that for the vast majority of people we all have our good moments and our bad. My only point, and sweeping generalization it is, is that there are sometimes people who don't seem to have "good moments and bad moments" or at least they don't show them to you. What you get to see seems to be mostly bad moments.

While from the standpoint of Ultimate Truth it is inaccurate to generalize about complex things like people's psychology. But there is the functional side which is that when someone consistently goes out of his way to act in an annoying manner, you naturally begin to generalize and think of them in those terms.

I have had the experience of meeting folks in person and getting to see that they had another side to them and we got along fine. I try not to be attached to my judgments in this area. It's just distracting and somewhat tiring to have to deal with it on a frequent basis.

Perhaps I should simply look at it as just anoher form of training. Learning how to not get "caught" by any of it. I can do it sometimes but at others I blow it big time.

[Kevin Wilbanks]

On a few occasions I've gotten really upset from things said on an internet forum. After exchanging a few blows with them, I fortunately realized that simply walking away was a viable alternative. In practice, this meant letting go of the particular exchange, not feeding the head chatter and just focusing on feeling the emotional component - which usually allows me to move through an emotion fairly quickly. If necessary, I've taken a hiatus from a particular forum, all forums, or any computer except email with real friends for days up to weeks. When I freak out over meaningless bullshit, I take it as a sign it's time to regroup and go focus on what's important for a while.

[John Boswell]

The truth of the matter is I may be a bit different in person. In fact, I'm a perfect gentleman. Nevertheless, I still wouldn't put up with George's subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle bullying tactics. As a result of his personal insecurities, he continues to try to throw his weight around, at least figuratively speaking. I've fought people who thought they were bigger than me all my life. No big thing.

The truth always comes out in the end, even through your own verbal slights. If you were truly sincere about changing that nasty behaviour, you'd skip that junk and remain positive. Instead, you just failed another test, as did George with his "punky" comment and his feigned sense of pity.
Mike, I really gotta ask:

What purpose does your "debate" on these forums serve? You come here and insult people on a personal and professional basis. You attack their opinions, you attack their "typos" and continue the attack when all point in it is lost. Yet... you go on?

Judging from your comments qouted above, you have no respect for your fellow Aikidoka nor do you seem to believe their opinions or comments mean anything. You'll stand up and scream your ideas and beliefs but the moment someone opposes you, you jump up and shout out even louder.

From you, I see no respect for others. I see no humility, sincerity, understanding. What I DO see is ego and a strong will to be right whether you are or not... you're "right"!!

And now, obviously having taken a side in opposition to yours, I will be made wrong, told how I don't matter, I haven't trained enough or under good enough instructors or whatever it is you'll say... and I'll be made fun of in some way. And with such attack, you will be right again and I will be wrong.

In truth, I really hope you understand some day just what George and others are trying to say. Though they may not always say things with the "grace" you look for, look more at the intention behind it. What was HIS reasoning for saying what he did? What is MY reasoning for this post? THAT is what we're trying to communicate.

If you find yourself on the defense and fighting back, chances are resisting and not blending ?? Sound familiar??

Aikido could really bring an end to this thread. Here's hoping so...

[Kevin Wilbanks]

In my view, the trouble with trolls like Mike is not that they are 'negative', disrespectful, stubborn, or enjoy taking shots at people at all. As I've said, I think those objections are pretty simple-minded. The real trouble is that they do these things without sufficient flair, style, or imagination, and that their attacks do not serve the purpose of presenting interesting perspectives or ideas. In short, it's not offensive; it's boring.

Many of my favorite philosophers and social critics were surly, agressive, and practiced intellectual geurilla warfare - Nietzsche and H.L.Mencken for instance. It can even be done sound bite-style, a la Dorothy Parker. Being rude or violating the sensibilities of one's audience can be a beautiful thing, but it takes a lot more than just a smug attitude and run-of-the-mill petulance.

[Qatana]

hmmmm

well this has turned into an interesting discussion. hasn't exactly answered my original question but sure has given me a chance to practice my aikido!

i don't think i gave anybody an argument

i was only "nasty" to the person who was "nasty" to me ( i hope)

i didn't try to get control of the thread back to My subject...

and not to attempt to justify abrasiveness/ rudeness/ malice (in descending order of social acceptibility)- i have a medical condition which affects my behavior. i don't hide behind it and i do everything i Conciously can to rise above my disability. but for some reason, since nobody can See the manifestation of this disability ( ie: wheelchair/ crutches/ cane/ guide dog, etc) it becomes invalidated. i have been invited to leave many groups i have been a member of ( most of which i was invited IN to) because people will not accept behavioral disability as valid. no matter what tangible contribution i have been able to contribute, how i say things is the entire basis of people's judgement of me.

this time its taken me three 1/2 years to attempt to participate in any group activity- so i chose aikido Specifically because it can teach me how Not to alienate people.

somehow i can hear the accusations of "whiner" and "aikido isn't therapy" on their way.

i'm gonna just keep training anyway.

thank you all for this opportunity to practice.

[DaveForis]

Talk about a funny thread. But a very good opportunity for training, whether one "blows it" or not. It's funny how people set up their own dynamic, isn't it? It'd be too easy and boring to have 200+ posts of "Yeah. I agree with what he/she said. That's right!" Yes. That's right. Aikido is boring. :)

But the training itself, on the other hand, is exciting. Teaching yourself to not react to an attack or a perceived attack with another attack has got to be one of the hardest damn things to do in this life (we're all too attached to power struggles, I think, even when we try to let go.) Maybe that's why the process of learning that is so enjoyable. :) And so frustrating.

But all ya can do is try, and that in itself is a pretty big accomplishment. Keep it up Jo, Kevin, John, Mike, George, etc. Good show. Reading this thread is a lot like watching a seminar or a class from the sidelines (and as soon as I step on the metaphorical mat myself, I'm just as likely to flub my metaphorical technique, just like a real class or seminar.) Very educational.

[mike lee]

In my view, the trouble with trolls like Mike is not that they are 'negative', disrespectful, stubborn, or enjoy taking shots at people at all. As I've said, I think those objections are pretty simple-minded. The real trouble is that they do these things without sufficient flair ...
But for you, name calling is sufficient flair? I've seen stray dogs with more flair than that!

[happysod]

As this topic has only stayed "sorta" on-message, I'd like to ask everyone on this - how do you define a "good" thread.

The reason I ask is that Mike's brand of "abuse as a learning tool" when coupled with the more reasoned (yet still cutting) responses of Kevin et al has made some of the more potentially dry and theoretical threads highly entertaining reading - and thus more educational!

Some of the high passions engendered have also elicited surprising information (I refer here to one of the atemi ones where I found a whole series of high-grade aikidokas happily using nerve punches on a regular basis to knock people out - what spiffing fun eh..). I think every forum needs a balance, I just wish there were a couple more Mike's as balance so our forum's "black sheep" wasn't quite so obvious - unfortunately my own sensitive soul cannot bring itself to join these ranks as you all seem too damn nice most of the time (knew I should have joined a karate forum).

[Qatana]

don't worry Ian. eventually i am sure to mouth off about Something .

[JPT]

When I was younger I too though jokes about disabled people were funny, since then I've spend some time with these people, they have enough to deal without us making them the butt of our jokes. Sorry to be a killjoy Shironage, its nothing personal, but find these type of things offensive. I request that somebody delete it.

:triangle: :square: :circle:

[shihonage]

When I was younger I too though jokes about disabled people were funny, since then I've spend some time with these people, they have enough to deal without us making them the butt of our jokes. Sorry to be a killjoy Shironage, its nothing personal, but find these type of things offensive. I request that somebody delete it.
Empathy is great, but too much empathy will eventually give you a heart attack.

So stop playing holier-than-thou (which you are not), and lighten up once in a while.

[Qatana]

i think the thing is:

in the Special Olympics Everybody wins

but somehow i don't think that was your intended message

[Alfonso]

I've come to believe that Aikido is ultimately unsatisfiying to the macho macho crowd.

Some people just don't feel happy without being able to win win win all the time.

trolling is an interesting concept.

At some point I was tempted to use internet personas as sounding boards, gadflies or some other interesting idea of that sort. Unfortunately for my budding "Demosthenes" I got hooked on sincere discussion. I don't get much out of mock quarelling or even partisan bickering

(like al the political "debate" that's flooding the server..), I mean no one's listening.

Abrasive personalities are a fact of nature. Judgemental personalities are another. I thought that in an Aikido board I would get to see Aikido philosophy expounded.

wrong.. its just people who do Aikido.

Sometimes though good stuff comes out.

Sometimes its all ego (ok most of the time)

:freaky:

[Qatana]

well people who "do" aikido Are "just people." and instead of talking about it, some of us are trying to "do aikido" right here ,right now.

[Alfonso]

I have no problem with that at all.

which goes back to the point of what you brought up in this thread.

you were shocked at some attitudes displayed at other members you ID with, well there it is.

At first I thought I'd find enlightened people here.

and then I realized it was only Mike Lee

(just kidding Mr. Lee, I do so enjoy your comments, (whoa spelling errors anywhere?))

I'd settle for people with similar interests, a passion for Aikido for one.

However, I'm left with *just people who do Aikido* of all shapes colors, and opinions, abrasive or not, and some people who want to do Aikido as well, and some who quit Aikido, and some who don't like Aikido , and some who like the board and have nothing to do with Aikido.

shocking really..

[Kelly Allen]

So on one hand we have our abrasive personalities that as Aikidoka we are supposed to deal with and practice our Aikido on (I have no problem with that). on the other hand we're not allowed to choose to alienate them because their purpose on this forum is to help us train in Aikido on the intellectual mat. With the personalities that are so confrontational how else can one deal with them without being confrontational or percieved as being confrontational short of alienating them.

Aikido, and this forum, have taught me alot of lessons about people, personalities, and me. It has helped me in my work, (dealing with abrasive people in a calm manner). but most importantly dealing with my son who has a bad temper. I understand though that he has a bad temper because I have a bad temper. Where I used to get into a power struggles with him I now ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good, all with a calm demeenor. I find this also works with adults. If a person is disrespectful to me I will ignore them. If the same person becomes more respectful in the way he/she addresses me I will interact.

There has to be consequence to negetivity otherwise the offending person will never make an effort to address people with civility. Consequence being in my mind alienating the offender. The person who chooses to interact with someone who is insulting and abusive only fuels his/her aggersiveness.

That being said I am no saint. I have added fuel to aggersors fire on a couple of occasions. But I am after all still learning.

train well every one.

[JPT]

Possibly I do need to lighten up. Let me try by telling you a few jokes of my own.

O.J. Simpson is reportedly doing a Disney movie its called the Lying Coon.

Early today forensic teams dismissed claims that a charred phallic shape object about 4 inches long, found hanging in a tree in Texas was part of the debris from the recent spaceship disaster. The team from NASA stated that the object was nothing more than a common shuttlecock.

How did the Nazi’s persuade the Jews to get on the trains to the concentration camps, with promises of free accommodation, medical, electric & gas services.

From my perspective (British, White, Middle Class) I find these jokes quite funny even though they are what I also consider to be in “bad taste”, but then I am far removed from any of these situations. I have no doubt that by posting them I have offended some people in this forum, & to those people I apologies & state that I have only have posted them to illustrate a point .

That point being that bad taste jokes shouldn’t be posted in this public forum. Jokes about disabled people are in bad taste, I do not like them because they are cruel & offensive. Again I request that it be removed.

Please don’t take this personal Shironage it is not you that I have a problem with (a lot of your other posts make sense to me). Possibly you might feel that I am picking on you, as this is the second encounter that we have had. (With hindsight I’ll admit I was probably a bit OTT in the first). However even if O’Sensei himself posted a joke like that I would say the same thing.

“Holier than thou” I am not, but I do have the wisdom & common sense to realise that jokes of bad taste shouldn’t be posted in a public forum.

:triangle: :square: :circle:

[MikeE]

I actually enjoy Mike Lee's rants. It brings some fun stuff and people out of the woodwork.

My instructor always said that everyone needs to have a petty tyrant. The one person who just gets your goat and really illicits homicidal feelings from you. This is the person you should spend a lot of time with. If you can learn to blend with this person...you will have taken a long step down the path.

Congratulations Mike, your someone's tyrant :)

[mike lee]

Congratulations Mike, your someone's tyrant

Evil is everywhere — but please don't let me distract you to the point where you neglect to look for it in yourself.

[MikeE]

Just remember to bow down before me.

Hugs & Kisses,

Your Dark Overlord

[mike lee]

eventually i am sure to mouth off about Something .

Let it Rip!

[mike lee]

My instructor always said that everyone needs to have a petty tyrant.
If you'r refering to Bill Sosa, I think he got the idea from a series of books written by Carlos Castaneda. Based on those books, I would not be considered a "petty tyrant," but rather a "worthy opponent."

It's interesting that it's often the same people who complain that aikidoists do not have the budo spirit and do not give realistic attacks, that suddenly turn to whining and whimpering and attempt to hide behind the "rules" when they receive a spirited attack on a harmless chat forum. Some of these guys even claim to be "warriors." If it wasn't so sad, I'd be busting a gut from laughter. Generally, I'm totally astonished to the point of speechlessness when I read such nonsense coming from "high-ranking martial artists."

P.S. I thought I was the "Dark Overlord." But such a mantel has become quite heavy in recent months — if you want it, it's yours!

[MikeE]

Mike,

No offense intended.

And actually Sosa Sensei got the idea from Don Juan Mateus, whom he loved to read and quote, and expound upon.

Whether petty tyrant, or worthy opponent, I think you do a hell of a job. ;) Anyways it's all in the person's perception. Do you think Saddam thinks he is a petty tyrant or a worthy opponent? I know what my perception is. Self-important thinking is always a bitch.

And you know, shared management of the netherworld may work. We could take a clue from Dante.

[shihonage]

By the way, my real name is Baal, Lord of Destruction.

[mike lee]

By the way, my real name is Baal, Lord of Destruction.
Eeeek! You guys are starting to trip me out!

I suppose there's lots of room in hell for all of us. The road is very wide, and it seems there's a lot of people running that way. Problem is, I hate crowds. I may end up taking the road less travelled. But if any of you demons ever want to heat up (pun intended) one of these forums, just mention the word "fat," and then question what it has to do with aikido, budo, martial arts, or health in general. The sparks will really begin to fly!

As for me — I've grown weary of the denials, hypocracy and circular discussions. I'm beginning to long for a high mountain trail, where one walks slowly, cautiously and methodically — ever upward, toward the realm of the eagles and the immortals.

I've realized after decades of failure and study that the Great Way is not so mystical — it's simply the art of perfecting love in every moment and every action. I wish I had learned this lesson years ago — I could have saved myself and others a lot of misery. Better late than never, I suppose.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I agree Mike, the mystery lay in the fact that there really isn't any great secret or mystery at all! You hit the nail on the head....perfecting love in every moment and every action.

Now the tough part, practicing it.

.....Now back to my secret KI enhancing excercises

[mike lee]

Kevin — I've been thinking a lot about you lately. Have you felt any vibrations?

I just want to say this: Someday I want to grow up to be just like you! :D

Really. I admire the patience and wisdom that often exude from your posts. I think you're way ahead of me.