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Kung Fu Liane
03-11-2003, 07:47 AM
Hi,

i have noticed a problem in the dojo i train at. there is one student who has been there for about three years who is disliked by many of the other students. the main reason for this is that instead of pointing out other people's mistakes, he chooses to be agressive, and many people find him intimidating. as an example, the other week, i make a mistake in a movement, and he started kicking my back leg, which i chose to ignore and continued the exercise, then half way thru he grabbed me, stood up and with his face a few inches from mine, and with his arm across my throat he told me off for doing the movement incorrectly.

the worst thing of all was i nearly reacted to his agression, i actually felt my foot twitch as if i were about to kick him. probably the only thing that prevented me from hurting him was the fact that i hate confrontations of that nature.

other students have told me about similar incidents during training, and they try to avoid partnering him in class. he seems to pick on the girls, and guys who are smaller build than him, particularly myself and a friend of mine. also he is openly rude to our teacher, calling him by his christian name, despite being repeatedly told not to.

i don't want to cause trouble at my dojo, but i don't feel that i can continue my training in an environment where there is an agressive student. i also feel that i have a responsibility towards the junior members of the dojo, to protect them from being harmed or from driving them away from the dojo. i would like to talk to my teacheer about it, but i don't know how well it would be received. does anyone have any idea as to how i can best phrase this to my teacher, without causing trouble?

thanx,

-Liane

MattRice
03-11-2003, 08:08 AM
Hi Liane

be advised that said dude might read this, and recognize himself, thus making you a target for more, um...loving attention.

You need to talk to your teacher, if the situation is really as you describe, it is obviously not a healthy addition to your environment. Your teacher should be very concerned about this, as it reflects her/his instruction (like it or not).

As to how to approach your teacher...dunno. Maybe, take a friend who feels the same way so it doen't look like you're just whining. It depends on the character of your instructor what will happen and what is the right approach.

Above all, take care of yourself and others if you can. Jerks aren't worth getting hurt over.

Matt

Edward
03-11-2003, 08:18 AM
well, I guess there is at least one of these jerks in each dojo, sometimes more. A dojo, imho, is a mirror of the outside world, on a smaller scale. You will find all kinds of people and characters. Most of us come to the dojo just to learn how to interact and confront such situations. That's why I don't think it's a good idea to complain to the Sensei about this, it sounds to me a little to dependant. In the countrary, you should deal with your feelings to such rude uncivilized individuals and try to use aikido principles to settle the situation.

Even though such jerks do not desrve to be in an aikido dojo, however, their presence is so invaluable in terms of teaching the other students practical lessons of aikido in the real world.

Greg Jennings
03-11-2003, 08:20 AM
<SNIP> i don't want to cause trouble at my dojo, but i don't feel that i can continue my training in an environment where there is an agressive student. i also feel that i have a responsibility towards the junior members of the dojo, to protect them from being harmed or from driving them away from the dojo. i would like to talk to my teacheer about it, but i don't know how well it would be received. does anyone have any idea as to how i can best phrase this to my teacher, without causing trouble?
Liane,

I like to train as tough as anyone but the guy sounds like an anal sphincter with delusions of being a person.

Just to get to the brass tacks, it sounds like you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by talking to your instructor.

I'd approach the teacher in private and tell him that you're very uncomfortable with the guy and that many of the other students have said the same to you.

Another tack you might take is to meet with the other members of the dojo and arrange an intervention with the guy. As a group, politely tell him to straighten up, or none of you will train with him.

Or, you could buy me a plane ticket to Jersey and I'll take care of him for you....

Best Regards,

ikkainogakusei
03-11-2003, 08:42 AM
Hi Liane :)

Guh, this guy sounds like he's a ripe one. I'm sorry to hear that you've got such a crappy practicioner in your dojo. As much as it might seem like you will be calling attention to yourself by taking some action, it might also encourage others to do the same.

As for having to engage this bully because there are also bullies in the real world...well it seems like the message many of us (including myself) is that we don't have to engage bullies as often as we think we do. Road rage, random acts of hostility, and other things are stop-able simply by not engaging. Yes, sometimes you do have to stand your ground, and sometimes you have to enter, but there are so many occasions when getting out of the way is perfectly applicable.

Maybe...just bowing out when he approaches you might be message enough. Maybe others might follow that lead. Or you could talk to the Sensei, or Dojo Sempai. Which ever is the most appropriate.

Just my 2 cents

:ai: :) :ai:

Jim ashby
03-11-2003, 08:53 AM
You could always change Dojo. If the Warwick Uni is the one in Coventry you could try the Phoenix. If not, go to your Sensei NOW and tell him what you experienced. If he/she does nothing that's as bad as encouraging this jerk. Get out while you can.

paw
03-11-2003, 09:06 AM
I suggest:

1. Do not train with him, ever. No exceptions.

2. Talk to your instructor about this. If your instructor does nothing, leave the school. (Acceptable responses for your instructor would include: a) talking to this individual and explaining that type of behavor is never appropriate or b) expelling the student from the school)

Frankly, I haven't the slightest idea why someone who is openly rude, disrectful and disobediant is still allowed to train. You may want to consider contacting the University about this. At best, this individual sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen.

Regards,

Paul

Michael Owen
03-11-2003, 09:08 AM
Liane,

You should report this to your sensei asap. Kicking and grabbing you with his arm across your throat is beyond rudeness, it is assualt. If your sensei has a problem with you bringing this issue to him, he is not fit to teach.

:mad:

gamma80
03-11-2003, 09:39 AM
ASK to train with this person next time you practice Shihonage. A well timed, incorrectly executed technique should get him out of class for six to eight weeks and give him time to reflect on his transgressions.

Chris

remember, lots of torque on the elbow!

Kevin Wilbanks
03-11-2003, 11:39 AM
It sounds bad to me. From what you say, the Sensei probably already knows about this guy's problem behavior. After all, he is willing to accept openly displayed disrespect and disobedience from him in class. If you trust a teacher, I could see being passive about them keeping someone around who seems borderline around for reasons that aren't clear to other students, and just trust their judgement. However, this guy sounds WAY over the line, which means your Sensei is either obliviously unperceptive, apathetic, a completely unassertive wimp, or some combination thereof. I would talk to the Sensei, but without much optimism, and start looking for another place to train or activity to do. I might even give the Sensei a piece of my mind on my way out too - the situation you describe is a disgrace, and the fault is entirely with the one who is supposed to be the leader.

mj
03-11-2003, 11:53 AM
Just leave. Find another club that suits you and within a few weeks you will revel in the atmosphere.

I disagree with the people who suggest putting up with it (you meet idiots in real life etc) because in real life we do not choose to spend our leisure time with thugs.

The rules of etiquette in Aikido are well known to all practitioners. I sincerely doubt your 'sensei' is so blind as to not notice the behaviour of his/her students. Do not bother setting yourself up for worse treatment by ignoring (encouraging) or confronting (asking for it) the aggression. It is nothing to do with you, it is a club matter.

If it makes you feel any better, which I doubt in the short term, many of us have been through things like this.

Just leave :)

Larry Feldman
03-11-2003, 12:04 PM
Just a little perspective from the other side.

Strange as it may seem, your teacher may not be aware of how bad the situation is. If you bring it to his attention, at least you can feel like you did what you can to resolve the issue. It is your teachers responsibility to provide a safe, and sane practice environment.

I have always been reluctant to throw people out of class, but have done it 3 times.

In all cases it was better for the class, and easier for me - I didn't have to keep 1 eye on 'the person' and just one on the class. The only regrets I have had is not doing it sooner.

KaitlinCostello
03-11-2003, 12:09 PM
Liane,

There is no shame in bringing this matter to your instructor. No one should ever be bullied in the manner that you have described. You should not be physically assaulted for making mistakes, this in my opinion is unacceptable in any way shape or form. Being put into a choke hold and berated steps over the barrier by a mile. Remember, you do not have to practice with a person who threatens you in any way. Walk away, sit in sieza, ask to join in with another pair. Obviously this person you have encountered has an attitude which will get him no where but out the door.

Please, please, please discuss this with your instructor. I personally do not believe in ďstriking backĒ at people as has been suggested in previous posts. I believe that weíre all adults and should deal with our issue in the appropriate manner. You are being threatened and harassed. This would not fly in a school, work or public environment , so then why should it be tolerated in your Dojo?

If this person threatens you for posting the thread do not hesitate to bring this to a legal matter. Your safety and wellness supercedes anything else.

Be well,

Kate

P.S- Please don't leave your Dojo for the ignorance and violence of another. It should be this Man leaving as he oviously has no understanding of what exactly aikido is about.

Bud
03-11-2003, 12:15 PM
If this cretin has been training in the dojo for three years now, then I put the blame squarely on the sensei. He or she should have seen this coming years ago and dealt with it. He can't claim to not notice it and if he or she says that than maybe the sensei shouldn't be teaching at all.

I had the same type of jerk in a former dojo years ago. The guy was a real psycho. He started out as a normal guy and got weirder. The instructor should have straigthened him out but he didn't so he developed a really sick personality (but I think the student was already a bit off his rocker for some time now).

Tell your sensei what's happening and if he or she doesn't do anything about it, then move to another dojo.

Nacho_mx
03-11-2003, 12:53 PM
ASK to train with this person next time you practice Shihonage. A well timed, incorrectly executed technique should get him out of class for six to eight weeks and give him time to reflect on his transgressions.

Chris

remember, lots of torque on the elbow!
Are you serious? Have you considered that Liane may be not skilled enough/willing enough to counter his aggressive technique?

3yrs experience + bad attitude vs. intimidated, angered student? I see a devastating kaeshi waza coming...:dead:

Liane, If you feel threatened, intimidated, insulted or whatever, report to the sensei during or after class. If there are other disgruntled students talk to them and then talk to your sensei (strenght in numbers, the first aikido union against unfair or agressive training practices... :D )

timcraig
03-11-2003, 02:22 PM
Just put him down a couple times.

Deal with him in the same way you would deal with someone attacking you on the streeet. Use your aikido to protect yourself and your attacker. Someday he might try that nonsense on someone who won't be as forgiving as you. Better for him to learn he's being a jerk and that his bahavior is unacceptable.

You are learning a martial art after all, and nobody is going to fault you for throwing someone in aikido class.

cindy perkins
03-11-2003, 02:29 PM
I agree with those who have suggested talk to the instructor (ideally with one or more other students), then leave if necessary. From my non-aikido teaching experience, I have found it is very possible to be blind to a particular student's faults, particularly if they are rude to you, because you are bending over backward not to misperceive faults out of personal annoyance. Sad but true. Speak to your instructor in a spirit of love, assuming you are bringing him new information and that he will respond correctly. If he does not, then leave immediately; he will be no protection if the jerk decides to retaliate. Just my HO...

ikkainogakusei
03-11-2003, 02:54 PM
Okay this has gotten way out of hand. Please do not take the advice of anyone who tells you to inflict harm on this guy. Not only will you be lowering yourself to his level, but you'll be putting yourself in serious jeopardy. :confused:

I hadn't noticed that this dojo/club/class is at a University. If this is so, there are huge liability considerations, and if your Sensei is not listening to you, then a department chair, dean, or officer of student conduct will.

Those who are suggesting that you speak out or remove self are (IMHO) giving the wiser advice. Take it.

timcraig
03-11-2003, 02:59 PM
Not harm, only pain. Pain goes away when you let off the nikkyo. That's part of the beauty of aikido, you can wake someone up with the pain, but also let them walk away with you afterwards.

Alfonso
03-11-2003, 03:36 PM
forget it, stop fantasizing you folks for a second. Liane has stated she's a beginner a number of times. How do you expect her to be able to confront someone with more experience, physically stronger and on top of everything with a mean disposition?

So, the guy thinks he's cool, he can find openings, he thinks he's martial and macho.

Bullies abound in this world, and they feed off attention and fear.

If you won't talk to your instructor, just avoid the idiot. Even if you're the only available choice for partnering just bow to him and go work in a trio.

if someone asks, just say you're not comfortable taking ukemi for him, and explain your problem.

No one can force you to put yourself in his hands. Discuss this with the other folks as well, an obvious effort at ignoring him will raise flags

..this being a japanese activity ostracism seems to be appropriate..

faramos
03-11-2003, 03:51 PM
Liane,

I'm not going to disput the fact that you don't perfer to train with this person. Nor do I disput the fact that this person may not be as aiki as any of us would like. But if you approach your sensei, I would perhaps attempt to connect with this person also. Not an outright confrontation, instead, a chance to know who they are. Often times a person or persons find an uke that is nearly unbearable and harsh. And they find is tough to connect with them based on the phsyical contact and technique alone. It may help one day top perhaps ask the question "Why do you train so intensely?" I know it's something people have asked others, and it's definitely gotten both parties to rethink their motives for their actions.

My sensei always says to his students at various times on the mat: "Do you have it down? Are there no questions about how the technique works. Okay then I guess we must all be perfect." I know deep down he knows we all have questions, and in bottling them up, we get nowhere. So I would believe that your sensei undestands the situation, and that perhaps he knows there is a conflict. Yet, as a gesture of good faith in this person, you may just want to ask them "Why?"

It has never hurt anyone I know. Over time, if the person continues, keep asking more questions about their motivations. "Are you going to accomplish anything by punching me right now on the mat?" Often times people that take these kinds of actions do not feel connected with their partners. In fact, they feel left out. So it is best to let them know that training is a fifty-fifty idea: I will train with you so long as you will train with me. So even if they train with the intent of giving you hell, keep training at your own pace, maybe even take it slower as to figure out if you can adjust to their responses.

It's fine to be upset with someone on the mat. It's fine to be reluctant with them too. Just remember to stay centered, connect with your words and respond; before connecting with your body and losing your way. Please just be patient, peaceful, and above all just make every response a Thank You.

Best In Your Training,

Frank

Kevin Wilbanks
03-11-2003, 04:22 PM
Frank, did you even read the initial post?
as an example, the other week, i make a mistake in a movement, and he started kicking my back leg, which i chose to ignore and continued the exercise, then half way thru he grabbed me, stood up and with his face a few inches from mine, and with his arm across my throat he told me off for doing the movement incorrectly.
This doesn't sound like someone who needs a kind word, some TLC, and a few more weeks of chances to abuse Liane's body with no more response than smiles and thank yous. It sounds like someone who I would never let touch me again... someone who needed to be thrown out of the dojo/club long ago. I find your advice unrealistic, irresponsible, and possibly dangerous.

Kevin Wilbanks
03-11-2003, 04:42 PM
In a less civilized situation, or one where continued participation is mandatory, like the military, the rest of the group gets together and throws guys like him a 'blanket party'... which it sounds like he could use. A few months of quiet time in the hospital to think about the fact that everyone else in the group participated in putting him there might have some effect, but that Mr. Rogers stuff is just wishful thinking. Fortunately, we're talking about a free society and a voluntary activity however, and giving this guy life lessons is not Liane's responsibility, so she can just leave.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-11-2003, 05:50 PM
It's an interesting question in an aikido setting. He sounds like a complete bastard. Perhaps in his case, harmony needs to take the form of something sharp and unpleasant. (I do /not/ mean attacking him or doing something like that...I hope those people were kidding about trying to hurt him with a mangled aikido technique!) Some throws are very sharp. (In Yoshokai, we have a "step-in-thrust"...I'm sure other types exist, like that "clothesline throw"...) In the same way, sometimes the best answer is something like getting him tossed out.

I'd say talk to the sensei. At the very least, he should be able to give you some advice. If an aikido sensei can't figure out a way to deal with a jerk...

faramos
03-11-2003, 07:14 PM
Yes, I did read the post. And I do understand you point. I'm not Mr. Rogers and I don't always think people are Aiki. At the same time, I don't think any of us besides Ms. Guillou have the power to anything immediately except give our own individual views and experiences on the subject.

Personally, I've been punched in the nose, kicked in the abdomen, etc. by some people that "play rougher" than normal. What I've learned from all these situations it that something really doesn't sit well with people that train this way. What happens on the mat happens for a reason. Someone that trains aggressively does so for a reason. If we figure out the reason why, then we understand how to handle it.

This is a true test of Aikido. Sure the guy may be a complete bastard on the mat, what is he off the mat? Do we know why he trains this way? I don't think any of us can really say except for Ms. Guillou. To want to engage someone physically without even address who they are, that leaves makes our training incomplete. And even then what good comes from tossing or hurting someone without asking what there problem is?

Abe sensei, Saito sensei, Leynard sensei, and many others have given extensive lectures on this issue. All of which made the point that if someone violently attacking you, its being done for a reason no matter where it takes place. Ikeda sensei has even stated "Uke is never wrong." They just have a problem we don't understand. Figure out why someone has a problem, then engage the issue. Stubborn or not, a person is still entitled to an open ear, but we must be willing to listen first.

To be violent or uncommunicative before we even know what the truth behind the actions are will never help any of us grow.

Jeffrey A. Fong
03-11-2003, 07:31 PM
Ramos-san's observations are refreshing, as they emphasize a principle that is fundamental to Aikido, and that is the ability to work with resistance. Although the prospects for this individual (and dojo, for that matter) are guarded, at best, it is alarming how reflexively we resort to confrontational, equally destructive tactics such as "blanket parties." While these may provide some immediate gratification, I think the point behind practice is to hone our ability to deal with the "impossible." For safety and personal dignity,to avoid a conflict is prudent and aiki.

Kevin Wilbanks
03-11-2003, 08:02 PM
I see the described behavior as something quite different from rough play that results in getting punched or slammed. This guy is stepping outside his role of student on the mat, taking it upon himself to teach in a bombastic and negative way, and administer threats and corporal punishment. It's so far away from acceptable that I find all this touchy-feely talk somewhat astonishing.

Altruism and attempting to heal the universe are laudable goals, but they are not this mistreated student's responsibility - keeping herself safe is. If you think the entire universe, including every sadistic jackass that crosses your path, is your responsibility to tend to and care for, then good luck to you. I think it is unreasonable to fob this kind of overweening grandiosity onto someone who is just looking for some practical advice. Personally, I seriously doubt the course of universal events will be effected much whether this guy repents and lives a long, rich and harmonious life or slips under a gas truck and dies five minutes from now. Our querist will undoubtedly be better off just staying away from him.

Michael Neal
03-11-2003, 08:08 PM
I see the described behavior as something quite different from rough play that results in getting punched or slammed. This guy is stepping outside his role of student on the mat, taking it upon himself to teach in a bombastic and negative way, and administer threats and corporal punishment. It's so far away from acceptable that I find all this touchy-feely talk somewhat astonishing.

Altruism and attempting to heal the universe are laudable goals, but they are not this mistreated student's responsibility - keeping herself safe is. If you think the entire universe, including every sadistic jackass that crosses your path, is your responsibility to tend to and care for, then good luck to you. I think it is unreasonable to fob this kind of overweening grandiosity onto someone who is just looking for some practical advice. Personally, I seriously doubt the course of universal events will be effected much whether this guy repents and lives a long, rich and harmonious life or slips under a gas truck and dies five minutes from now. Our querist will undoubtedly be better off just staying away from him.
Amen, that is refreshing to hear

faramos
03-11-2003, 10:13 PM
I see the described behavior as something quite different from rough play that results in getting punched or slammed. This guy is stepping outside his role of student on the mat, taking it upon himself to teach in a bombastic and negative way, and administer threats and corporal punishment. It's so far away from acceptable that I find all this touchy-feely talk somewhat astonishing.

First off I must apologize to those that think I may have made this topic more of an abstract thesis rather than practical advice, espcially to Ms. Guillou. True, Mr. Willbanks, this person is overstepping their boundaries. True, this is a serious matter for the dojo. That I will not disput.

I am inclined however to just suggest connecting in a different way. Apparently it has not worked physically on the mat. It's only helpful to try another way then. That seems only logical. Whether it be the acting sensei, another student, or Ms. Guillou herself, for someone the way to get through this situation is to find out a way to get through to the person that his actions are harmful. If Aikido teaches us anything, it's that words are as strong as any technique.

Personally, I do believe that this can be helped out, we are only human and have the ability to change, time is all that matters. And with that I can only say that sure this may seem touchy-feely as you pointed out, but yet it seems as though that is a fairly strong Aikido concept. Touch and feel are the basis of budo itself if I understand correctly. No matter how the situation is handle though, I hope the best for those at training.

Edward
03-11-2003, 10:24 PM
One small note to clarify my previous post. I said that the presence of such individuals can be good exercice in aiki for the other students. I did not mean to confront the guy physically. Passive resistance such as the whole class refusing to practice with him, avoiding him, can work wonders. It might even help improve this guy's character. If you throw him out of the dojo, or if you confront him with his own weapons, you will only make a worse person out of him. This I believe is the way of the aiki. As for myself, I am not so sure if I would have the patience to use the aiki and might resort to more direct and violent ways to deal with him, but this I cannot advise to any other person.

cindy perkins
03-12-2003, 12:33 AM
I agree that the ideal way might be to talk with him directly. It has been pointed out that he picks on women and smaller men, classic bully behavior. That suggests he knows quite well that he's out of bounds; he won't do the same assaultive stuff with people who might really hurt him. (Like the classic wife-beater; he says it's her fault for getting him out-of-control mad, and yet he never seems to lose it with his boss...) Therefore I suggest it should not be a woman or smaller man who should talk to him. The sensei should talk with him, and if he gets defensive or angry, he should be tossed. The first priority is keeping everyone else safe.

Violence, as many wise posters have said, will do nothing good! Ripping his shoulder apart with a bad shihonage (followed, no doubt, by subtle satisfaction in many of his bullying targets)will teach him only that damage to uke is OK in aikido class.

udoka1
03-12-2003, 12:47 AM
howdy, yes definantly talk with your instructor first. But man ive gotta tell ya sounds like this guy needs a whoopin. Since you say your skills in aikido arent all there just knee em in the huevos that should bring him down just dandy :eek: then bring the knee into his nose. Sorry im a little agressive when it comes to bullys.

Kelly Allen
03-12-2003, 02:11 AM
I personally think it would be very gratifying to watch this clown wonder around the dojo looking for someone to train with only to have person after person refuse him as a partner. If the Sensei tries to pair him with you explain to sensei what has been happening. If the sensei insists you work with him say goodbye and leave. This clown is going to cause everyone to leave eventually anyway until the sensei is forced to properly deal with the issue.

Kung Fu Liane
03-12-2003, 04:54 AM
Thanx guys,

you've pretty much all confirmed my initial thoughts, its just good to know that other people think the same way.

however, i think i agree with Edward, that throwing a student out of the dojo will only make them worse, and then it becomes other peoples' problem.

i intend to talk to my teacher before class on friday, as i am beginning to doubt whether he has picked up on the behaviour.

as for mesaures for countering his agression, i believe i could use my kung fu training (i started that years before i even tried aikido) to some affect, but i don't believe that is the right way to do things. i don't want to take myself to this guy's level, it would only negate many hard years of training. i agree that it sounds like an attractive idea, but it would only create a bad enviornment, in what i believe to be a dojo with some promise.

thank you again,

-Liane

erikmenzel
03-12-2003, 04:58 AM
Liane, that is a serious problem. I have no easy solution, but maybe resorting to violence is not the best solution.

One thing that makes me wonder is how this can happen in a good dojo. I would normally expect the senior students to be responsible in sorting this out. At least that is the way it works in our dojo. Even at seminars in our dojo the senior students have taken it upon themselves to protect the junior students and if necessary shield the junior students from a bad apple. Nobody likes it to train with a bad guy (they are mostly guys, somehow) but protecting your junior students definitly takes priority. And senior students warn each other: Look that guy is abusing, we are going to rotate with him. Same thing happens with visitors. They train first and second technique with a senior student (happens naturaly) and are thus checked for the mentality in their training. They are only released unot the rest of the dojo after they are thought to be ok.

kung fu hamster
03-12-2003, 07:30 AM
Maybe by this time he'll have read these posts and will check himself. Sometimes people do cross the line when they try to show someone else that their techniques have big gaps, it's pretty common in our dojo for an uke to throw nage with a henke waza (spelling?) if they're not connecting with uke at all times, or exposing a big suki. But if many people are whispering and complaining about it, and declining to work with him, then the guy must be pretty insensitive not to guess that he's a topic of distaste when it comes to cooperation or intimidation. As my teacher said, aikido is supposed to be of benefit to everyone on the mat, not just for yourself at the expense of others.

MattRice
03-12-2003, 08:04 AM
I think you've figured this out for yourself, but retaliation is not the correct path. Even if you were capable of doing so, this would make you the 'bad guy'.

Further I find it disturbing that folks on this board would suggest trying it in the first place. Is this what you are taught? Would your teacher recommend this to you? Irresponsible.

Lastly, I would like to express my appreciation to all who responded to Liane. We apparently are a very compassionate and concerned bunch around here. Not one "suck it up and take the hit, newbie!" type response. Very gratifying.

Matt

Jeff Tibbetts
03-12-2003, 08:48 AM
Wow. I'm surprised that no-one has related similar experiences. I'll try. I'm still new to Aikido, and a couple of my Sempai don't like to talk to explain techniques, they like to show you your openings or faults through action. I used to hate this, but you know I realized that I learned a lot more from them through that method than if they just explained those things. There are times when a simple explanation will do, but some things need to be felt or shown to imprint them into your memory. This extends to taking Ukemi for them as well. I was working with one of them on a cross-hand grab the other week, and I kept swinging my hand in from the side to grab his wrist instead of going straight on. He let me do it a few times, but then once he went into a technique as though I was attacking with a modified yokumenuchi, and it really made it obvious that I was doing it wrong. After that I've always grabbed a wrist with the right intention. In addition, that same day, we were doing a technique where I would run 180 degrees around him, and my tendency is to bend over and run with my head when we do that. Again, after a couple of times he started pushing down on my head as we did the technique. At first I laughed at how I just dropped to my knees, (and thought he was being a jerk) then I saw that he was trying to tell me to stand up straight when I'm taking Ukemi, and it made so much sense I can't believe no-one else ever showed me that. At any rate, while some people may have thought that he was being a jerk, I looked at it with a little empathy and tried to see why he was doing what he was doing. He helped me more that day than most of the other students have helped me with long explanations and conjecture.

Ok, I'm not saying that it sounds like Liane's situation is the same, but how many of us have learned something this way, too? It may be that Liane learned something important about that technique that she was doing, or maybe the guy being a jerk made her forget about it right away, who knows? Maybe what she was doing with her leg or whatever could have gotten him seriously hurt if done at speed, maybe he's already been hurt with this technique. Maybe he really is just some jerk, but a little empathy can never hurt. Ever. Try to find the reasons, as Mr. Ramos has advised. That's my opinion. All the other advice about talking to the teacher is good advice, but maybe not untill you've learned a bit about where the student's coming from.

ikkainogakusei
03-12-2003, 08:58 AM
.... I would like to express my appreciation to all who responded to Liane. We apparently are a very compassionate and concerned bunch around here. Not one "suck it up and take the hit, newbie!" type response. Very gratifying.

Matt
I'll second that 'yea'. It would seem that the essence of aikido as 'harmonious' self-defence might manifest itself in this situ.

Though I have imagined some sort of 'Jet Li' moment in past encounters with bullies, I don't feel this way anymore (or at least I wouldn't act on those feelings). It is good to see that others have gotten this message from aikido as well.

Liane, let us know how things turn out. I am curious to know how the bully responds.

:ai: :) :ai:

Hmm..bullies in aiki-keiko...sounds like a good journal entry. :)

GreyRonin
03-12-2003, 10:06 AM
I'm surprised that your sensei does not realise this or even worse, if he does realise, doing nothing about it.

My CI would not have tolerated such a person especially if he called him by his first name. Not because of ego but because such a person displays open contempt for authority/seniority. Everyone in my (previous) dojo calls him "sensei", no exceptions, even the Assistant CI who has known him for a very long time and also a personal friend. This student would have been expelled especially if word that he's bullying students get out.

I'm of average build and height. If something like this were to happen to me or other students (as I was a lot senior than many other students, they sometimes approach me for help), I'd have a word with him. If he understands the stress he is causing, fine. But if he doesn't, gets aggressive and looks for a fight, I'd let my CI or seniors know about this and let them decide what to do. In most cases, in my dojo, he would have been asked to leave. If he refuses, there's always the police.

Bigger surprise is, what is he doing in an aikido dojo? And hasn't he learnt anything ?

kung fu hamster
03-12-2003, 10:33 AM
Liane,

One more thought....our teacher is extremely perceptive when it comes to seeing how students may be 'strong-arming' other students, if he sees a problem with too much energy and not enough constructive use (to tell the truth, I think most people actually think they are doing the other person a favor by applying 'pressure' of that sort, thinking the other person will become stronger/more knowledgable by overcoming it), he'll call the offender up as demonstration uke, tell them they are too heavy in their ukemi (resisting too much) and then gives them a sharp little taste of the mat to show them how it feels to be on the 'absorbing' side of the technique. If they try to do something as foolish as a mischievous henke waza on him, they will certainly regret it. Is it possible that your teacher can teach this guy a lesson? Actually the persons I've seen who experienced this sort of check have always been appreciative of the attention and basically have seen the error of their ways and toned it down thereafter. The teacher has enough control not to really hurt the guy and while everyone enjoys seeing the guy meet his karma, they are pretty forgiving when they see heís reformed. It seems to me that guys like that seem to really enjoy being blasted into the mat until their ears are ringing. Maybe they think other folks enjoy pain too.

SeiserL
03-12-2003, 12:31 PM
IMHO, there are several possible lessons here.

First, face your own fears of intimidation. Second, practice verbal Aikido and gently confront, enter, blend, and help your uke. Third, talk to your Sensei about the inappopirateness of it and don't train with them. Fourth, walk away.

Until again,

Lynn

kung fu hamster
03-13-2003, 09:50 AM
I may, unintentionally, have given aikido teachers everywhere the willies when I suggested that they champion the weaker students by giving bullies a taste of their own medicine. I forgot that not all teachers have the effective skills to do that. Usually once the teacher is aware of a problem in that area, they will line everyone up and give a little talk about not abusing their ukes because classes are small and once youíre through with wrecking your classmates youíll have no one else to practice with. Sometimes these little lectures must be given frequently, depending on whatís going on in the class. IMHO this sort of situation sometimes arises because teachers tell us to train hard with intensity and integrity, but donít talk....so then instead of saying something to explain what the kohai is doing wrong with the technique, the alternative that the sempai has left is to physically get the point across, and I suppose kicking and scaring is one way they resort to. Although, I have known of a large troglodyte who didnít care who he was practicing with, how old or how small, he would practice at his own hard level of intensity and he said if they couldnít stand the heat they should get out of the kitchen. Then you start to get into semantics about Ďwhat is aikidoí?

bob_stra
03-13-2003, 10:53 AM
Liane

Realistic options.

(1) Talk to the *guy* first. Don't sugar coat it. Put it bluntly. "What the hell do you think your doing? Back off, your hurting me!!" Make sure you're heard by him.

(2) Tell your sensei abt what he did.

(3) never train with this guy again. Ever.

I know its tough. No one like to stand out or be seen complaining. We've been socialized to be "good girls and boys". But frankly, guys like this need to be stopped. Who the hell is he to push you around for amusement?

Your no one's punching bag. Don't put up with it.

bob_stra
03-13-2003, 11:01 AM
This is somewhat tangential to the topic at hand, but worth the read anyway.

http://www.philelmore.com/martial/martialout.htm

MattRice
03-13-2003, 11:24 AM
Interesting but I don't think that this article takes into consideration Aikido's goals when it speaks of 'any martial art'. Lofty and idealistic though those goals may be, fighting is simply not one of them.

shihonage
03-13-2003, 02:02 PM
Interesting but I don't think that this article takes into consideration Aikido's goals when it speaks of 'any martial art'. Lofty and idealistic though those goals may be, fighting is simply not one of them.
In order to defend yourself against someone serious, you need to be the initiator of attack.

Seize control, confuse and break their rhythm and spirit.

Gouge eyes. Break throat. Whatever it takes to get out.

Aikido is bigger than fighting, but it should always be inclusive of it.

Like someone else's signature on this site says, a pacifist can not be a pacifist without ability to choose to inflict damage.

It's easy to forget reality inside the dojo, but reality does not take good ukemi, and it will have no mercy.

otto
03-13-2003, 03:11 PM
I wonder why an able teacher wouldnt just remove this bad apple from a good lot inmediatly....

Right and Wrong (http://www.thesegoto11.com/zen/index.php?story=45)

There is always a reason (with my sensei at least) to keep up with someone like this guy , try to understand them or else leave..

No worth putting yourself at risk or let someone ruin your training.

Best of luck..

Plus KI!

Kujo
03-13-2003, 06:12 PM
I have seen your situation Liane. It's worse when you've stayed long enough to love your sensei and your dojo, and you feel driven from your home by some undeserving fool. There's also a sense of failure and loss by leaving, a betrayal of faith and of loyalty. The situation I observed involved multiple emergency hospital visits and still the behaviour did not improve. My sensei is fundamentally a pacifist and inclusivist, and he did not agree with my judgement that the situation was nearing a crisis point. I respect his right to run his dojo the way he sees fit, and thus ultimately you feel conflict: respect that he holds to these ideals to the very last, but also deep anger that he ultimately won't protect the people who make their home with him. So ultimately, you must be willing to protect yourself in case you find out he won't. It's not any different than families where an adult figure molests a child, and the other adults keep quiet, avoiding confrontation. (Lest anyone think I make that comparison lightly, well, I've seen that situation too.) The child needs to learn how to keep his own humanity and protect himself without turning into a monster, and also without objectifying the person hurting him. While deeply tempting to strip the offender of his humanity in your mind, ultimately it just embitters and keeps hurting the one who's already been hurt enough. It just gives you something bad to focus on, while having no effect on the offender. And you may feel resentment and anger at sensei, but he's only human too. Don't strip him of his right to make mistakes, thinking he should be your final protector. *You* are your final protector; don't be dependent on anyone, not even sensei. Remember that especially in seminar situations.

Take it from someone who's walked down that path.

And maybe the offer of the sacrifice of the wise Zen priest, to give up his whole loyal dojo to save one soul, can work to change the heart of the bully. But the cynic in me notes that most bullies are too self-centered to notice others sacrifices, and keep taking and taking because that is what they understand of the world. Do not let them damage you with their taking, and while you do not have to take on the responsibility of teaching them respect for others' humanity, you do have the responsibility to try to make your perspective known, to the dojo, to sensei and to him. For your own sake, if no one else's.

I think leaving the dojo is really the last resort; realize that you're likely to encounter your old dojo mates at seminars and such. If you stay in aikido, you can't say good-bye forever. So you will have to deal with it now, honestly, compassionately, and effectively. In my situation, I spoke to sempais. I spoke to sensei, once, very clearly, that I could not tolerate this situation. I saw the dojo population dwindle. I chose to boycott. I trained elsewhere and said nothing, because I did not want to start gossip and make my sensei look bad. My focus narrowed down to just getting on the mat every day, and train somewhere I felt safe, and to behave in as scrupulously honourable a manner as I could. Finally, my problem child got badly injured by his own actions and was out of commission for months. (I was sad to hear this, and the only positive thing was that no one else was hurt by this final event.) The remaining dojo members contacted me and asked me to return. Sensei and I spoke and we reconciled. Problem child visited once to watch, and got a pretty cold shoulder. I don't think he'll return. Now I have two dojo homes, while he has none.

Eventually, you will have to consider the larger context of this choice -- who you trust and how you trust them and how much you *should* trust them. Fundamentally, it's *your* body, and your aikido, no matter whose rank you hold. I'm still working on the fallout of my situation, what faith in one's teacher means, what to do with the lingering anger. Not all damage in these situations is physical. Tread lightly, but move decisively -- "ruthless compassion", for yourself, for sensei, and for your problem child. Please let me know how you are doing and what you ultimately decided.

Karen

camel
03-14-2003, 12:04 AM
After reading the original post, I think it might be prudent to reiterate a few points. First, I can't find anywhere in Liane's original post that states that this troublesome student is a threat to the safety of the dojo members. His behavior (as described by Liane) while seemingly rude, didn't appear to me to be actually dangerous. Liane states that he kicked her leg, but that she chose to ignore it. If she could ignore it, how hard could he have been kicking? Also, many posters on this thread have expanded her original statement that he "stood up with an arm across (her) throat" into some sort of gruesome choke-hold. While this may very well have been the case, I need some verification before I would condone asking Sensei to throw him out of the dojo. I guess what I'm needing is some more clarification from the original poster. Is this student actually dangerous, or just annoying and intimidating? Has he hurt anyone in three years of training? It's important to fully consider just why you feel his behavior must be brought to the attention of your instructor. Is it for the dojo's sake, or for yours?

shihonage
03-14-2003, 12:32 AM
After reading the original post, I think it might be prudent....

etc etc etc
A certain thing that happened here recently.

Some guy wrote some poetry, and some woman copied it without permission and put her name on it.

So, the guy is justifiably upset, he says to her, "Why did you steal my original work ?", to which she replied "You didn't make anything original ! All these words you used are in the vocabulary !".

The quality of your arguments, Brett, is no less ignorant than the statement above.

I've had a few clashes with exactly the same type of "Aikido student" that Liane described, and it's no joke.

It kept getting uglier and uglier and (partially due to my fault) ended pretty damn ugly.

Unless you experience this type of continuous invasion of your personal space for yourself, you will not be able to perceive written description of incidents such as the one she described.

Therefore, since you're not able to perceive, you waive your right to pass ignorant off-the-wall statements.

Timothy Hansma
03-14-2003, 01:53 AM
Hi everyone. Having dealt with bullies (sometimes not so succesfully, and other tims so) I would suggest something. Taking from a good book I have read, I would like to take up the WWOD, in other words, what would O-sensei do?. My perception is that he would deal with him in the Way of Harmony. First talk to the bully yourself. I myself have been quite a jerk in the past when I have a little too much Testosterone in my system. I regret it now, and unless someone didn't point it out to me I would have kept on hurting others unintentionally. I also think Timing is important, the best time to talk about someone hurting your feelings is right away, as soon as it happens. Be polite, try not to intiimidate, but be firm. I also think if this does not assuage the situation. I think talking to Sensei should clear things up. Perhaps he hasn't noticed when these "overenthusiastic" training sessions have happened. I also think refusing to train with him if it comes to that will definately get the bullys attention, as well as the Sensei. You have a right to feel safe, on the street and especially on the Dojo Mat. I think if this sounds "touchy feely" that is okay, because aikido is the "art of Love/Peace" If it wasn't we might as well be traiing in Ju-jitsu and learn how to break bones and smash faces. This is the little bit I have to offer. I hope it helps. Peace be with you.

Timothy Hansma

ian
03-14-2003, 04:18 AM
I cannot believe your sensei is not stepping in on this one - he has the authority to do something about it. Any excessive bullying should be drawn to the senseis attention. Ueshiba insisted that aikido should only be taught to those of good character (though I'm not sure he followed his own advice!).

At the end of the day your sensei is liable for any problems that occur - he/she should be much more in control of the situation. One bully can change the atmosphere of the whole dojo - sometimes they just have to be removed.

Ian

rachmass
03-14-2003, 06:22 AM
Lets be polite with each other here. Brett (in my mind) was just trying to ask Lianne whether she felt the situation was dangerous and get a bit more background. Granted this thread is long, and maybe he hadn't read the thread all the way through (aren't we all guilty of that one sometimes?) and therefore missed some good points from all the contributors, but we really need to be respectful with each other on these public forums.

all the best,

Rachel

Avery Jenkins
03-14-2003, 06:27 AM
I cannot believe your sensei is not stepping in on this one - he has the authority to do something about it. Any excessive bullying should be drawn to the senseis attention. Ueshiba insisted that aikido should only be taught to those of good character (though I'm not sure he followed his own advice!).

At the end of the day your sensei is liable for any problems that occur - he/she should be much more in control of the situation. One bully can change the atmosphere of the whole dojo - sometimes they just have to be removed.

Ian
I recall an incident from many years ago, when I was training at a different dojo. This dojo was in a run-down area of the city, and we got a lot of different types of people that came to train...made for an interesting class, sometimes.

This was a dojo with a lot of young people, and it was fairly rough-and-tumble; respectful and disciplined, but there wasn't a whole lot of cosmic dancing. One fellow started training with us who seemed intent on trying to best everyone, resisting instead of learning, really trying to hurt you.

About two weeks after this student had started training, I heard a great shout in the middle of class; I looked over in time to see sensei slam this student onto the mat. Then he looked down at him and told him to get off the mat and leave the dojo.

At the end of class, sensei apologized to us for his outburst; but, he said, that student just didn't have "the right spirit" for our dojo.

ruthmc
03-14-2003, 11:46 AM
Liane wrote:
i don't want to cause trouble at my dojo, but i don't feel that i can continue my training in an environment where there is an agressive student. i also feel that i have a responsibility towards the junior members of the dojo, to protect them from being harmed or from driving them away from the dojo. i would like to talk to my teacheer about it, but i don't know how well it would be received. does anyone have any idea as to how i can best phrase this to my teacher, without causing trouble?

:mad: Liane, your message sets off all kinds of warning bells! Something very similar happened to me about a year ago. I wasn't sure my sensei would listen to me, and after I posted the problems I was having on a mailing list and he found out that I had done so, sure enough he didn't want to hear anything I had to say.

So I left the dojo. My sensei was reportedly hopping mad that I'd even thought of writing for advice - I guess he saw it as a betrayal. From what you've said in your original post, it sounds like you have exactly the same concerns about speaking to your sensei as I had.

My advice is, if the knucklehead bully-boy is a University student, he won't hang around for ever so find out when he finishes his course and keep him at arm's length until he leaves. If he's a permanent fixture, you have to decide how important it is to you to continue training at this dojo. Things to take into consideration are:

1) Your sensei's attitude. The well-being of his/her students should be priority no.1, and if this is not the case, find another teacher. We are not learning to be warriors, we have to go to school or work the next day, so anybody who repeatedly puts us in dangerous situations must be dealt with AT ONCE.

2) The general attitude in the dojo. Go visit some other places if you can and find out what's different in the general atmosphere. If the students are happy and learning, you can taste it in the air. If there is a problem, the place will have an air of tension.

3) What you want to get from your training. Think carefully about this. If you aren't getting 95% of what you want from this dojo, don't waste your time there.

Now make a decision you know is right for you. THEN go talk to your sensei. You have to prepare for both the best and worst case scenarios, and make sure you come out of it as a winner. If your sensei sorts out the problems and you are happy training there - fantasic!! If OTOH your legitimate concerns are ignored, please go find a better dojo. You are worth far more than you are getting at the hands of that bully.

I am now very happy at my new dojo - we have a brilliant atmosphere there and everybody is progressing happily. Things can work out right when you make the right choices.

Good luck!

Ruth

Alfonso
03-14-2003, 12:55 PM
It's not difficult to envision a situation in Liane's scenario might have risen out of a misunderstanding, of the sort of that Brett may hint at.

Thinking in rosy terms I think that the best one could hope is that the guy in question saw this thread and this caused him to reevaluate what he's trying to do, or how he's coming accross.

Regardless, the multiple responses may have indicated to Liane what is expected behavior in a random sampling of Aikido Dojos. Hopefully this has helped her get the confidence to breach the subject with her sempai/sensei.

3 years into Aikido I was experiencing a first timers enthusiasm over the martial side of Aikido; after so much time of being awkward things started to make sense, talk of openings, of zanshin etc.

At the same time working with beginners is a challenge because they don't do what is expected automatically, and suddenly you can see where they leave themselves exposed.

The burden is on the senior student though, to help the beginner understand; and being threatening about it is an inappropriate response. People forget what it feels like to be so vulnerable as when you're starting to go this place where everything you do is wrong and everyone else seems so competent.

It was this lack of consideration that personally pisses me off. I think it's good that Liane feels she has options and the backing of other people.

But yes, isn't aikido also about not creating more victims?

camel
03-15-2003, 12:26 AM
Mr. Sundeyev,

I apologize if you found my comments ignorant or in any way malicious, āĀāď that was most assuredly not my intent. I merely wanted more clarification from Liane herself on the troublesome student in question. As a matter of fact, I have experienced āďāŹāćāÖ quite similar situations myself in my training, and I have also seen less experienced students sometimes mistake a senior student's training methods as violent or dangerous when they were neither. I'm sorry that my comments were met with such hostility, but I assure you again that my intent was not to belittle or make light of what is possibly a very serious issue. Again, you have my apologies.

Brett

norman telford
03-16-2003, 09:19 AM
if there is bullying in the dojo its a problem for your sensei to solve just remember you dont have to be there you can train wherever you want to if your sensei wont or cant help you gotta leave i am a great believer in what goes around comes around on a seminar i was at once a a higher than dan grade (iwont say how much higher)was going over the top with his techniqes on 5th and 4th kyu grades this was picked up on by myself and my training partner at the time so we gave him a taste of his own medicine which had the desired effect and he behaved after that hope you get things sorted

Lyle Bogin
03-17-2003, 02:18 PM
Just throw the guy and relax. If he isn't giving you injuries that keep you from practicing, he is what you might call a teacher you will appreciate, but never feel any gratitute towards.

ian
03-18-2003, 07:21 AM
I couldn't disagree with Lyle more - if you are worried about being injured you will naturally tense up and things may get worse. Also, some injuries are quite serious and I would not want to loose movement in my wrist (due to a wrist fracture) or worse, die or suffere spinal damage, just because someone was wanting to see how rough they can be.

Alfonso
03-18-2003, 10:00 AM
no no..

just relax then throw the guy
Just throw the guy and relax.

:D

Lyle Bogin
03-18-2003, 02:00 PM
Haha! Good point Alfonso.

Seems to me the problem is fear. Not injury.

Goye
03-18-2003, 03:16 PM
Well,.. this is not an easy situation,.. :( some people here have said important things, there are several ways, talk to your teacher, kick his ďhuevosĒ, donít practice with him, do this, do that,..

For what I have read, I can see that there is also a little of senseiís omission. I canít believe your sensei is not aware of the situation. I want to discuss with you guys, what should you do as sensei if you get this in your dojo. I have seen that sometimes talking is not as effective as showing the jerk how the people feels when practicing whit him. I donít mean the sensei has to hurt him,.. but sometimes is good to be harder in the technique and after that, talk to the guy and explain why you act in the way you did. If there is no response from our friend I should say to him ďgood bye,Ö go to another dojo ,.. or to an ultimate fighting club,Ö or to the streets, you can make money doing there what you do here,..:freaky: or to hell but donít remain here! :mad: Ē,.. there are also several for a sensei in that situation, ..discussion open!

kung fu hamster
03-18-2003, 03:37 PM
Regarding the path of giving a Ďtoo intenseí uke a taste of their own medicine, I just wanted to add that when my teacher does this, IT IS NOT IN A SPIRIT OF RETRIBUTION FOR PAST ACTIONS. When I saw my teacher do this, he was quite jovial about it when he called the unsuspecting offender up, had the guy demonstrate ukemi, told him he was too stiff and heavy and then turned about and took ukemi from the fellow so that he can see the difference in the cooperation and flow. Then Sensei genially said, ďOh sure, you can treat your partner like THIS (Wham! turns hapless uke into a daisy-cutter then lifts him up in a gripping jointlock), or throw him like THAT! (BOOM! Uke is looking up at the ceiling with little birdies circling above his head), but then, when youíve used up all your partners there wonít be anyone left to throw.Ē We were lined up, tittering and giggling, but the point was made, friendly advise taken, no hard feelings. This is because usually when the student is going hard at it he really is trying to show the sensei that heís working hard, being intense, doing his best. He values the senseiís instruction and takes it accordingly. There is no Ďretributioní aspect to it, just a lesson in how to treat your training partners.

Kevin Wilbanks
03-18-2003, 08:37 PM
I think people keep losing sight of the real problem with the offensive guy. It's not that he's too rough, it's that he is assuming the role of a bombastic, abusive teacher, dissing the sensei, and maybe even making semi-explicit threats of harm to other students. Throwing him hard or scaring him or whatever without explanation would be irrelevant. The sensei should explain his role and appropriate student behavior to him and he should shape up immediately or be thrown out. That's really all there is to it.

Kung Fu Liane
03-19-2003, 03:50 AM
Hi,

two things to say. firstly, i'm amazed at how many people have posted on this thread, thank you to everyone who has.

secondly, i have spoken with my sensei, he was aware that there were some problems, and has been trying to deal with the guy. sensei didn't actually witness the incident that i described in my initial post, so he can't rally be blamed for anything.

my initial reluctance to talk to sensei actually stems from my having spoken my mind once before, explaining that i didn't understand aikido, that other people didn't understand either, and requesting more time to be spent on the basics. although my teacher took it well, and changed his teaching style after i had spoken with him, i didn't want to make a repeat performance and seem like a trouble maker.

finally, there seems to be a bit of a power struggle going on between my sensei and this guy, and i don't think this guy is going to win :)

thanx again,

-Liane

Ron Tisdale
03-19-2003, 08:30 AM
As to the "retribution" aspect, people should also remember that someone as described here often "eats up" the kind of hard practise described and comes back begging for more. I knew someone like this once...someone could throw him to hell and back, and he'd pop back up and ask for more.

Ron (hey, there's no accounting for tastes) Tisdale

beanchild
03-19-2003, 09:48 AM
liane, glad to hear you spoke with your sensai. hopefully that will help the situation, and give you more security as you train.

btw, any decent sensai should appreciate when a student comes to them with valid concerns and/or problems, so don't worry too much about speaking your mind, repectfully of course. (:

ian
03-19-2003, 09:52 AM
that someone as described here often "eats up" the kind of hard practise described
I don't think that's exactly what he meant - if it is done suitably it may take them a time to actually stand up!