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mura-san
03-09-2003, 06:48 AM
"ˇˇEi!!,ˇYa!,ˇIei!",It's the kiai that Ueshibas wrote in his dokas(way poems),and this is the Kiai that drumm the dojo's walls and it was listen to more metres to along.
Said Ueshibas has wonderfull kiai.
Today there are more dojos that dosen't used kiai in his practique,why?
There is a anecdote of Ueshiba about to his estudent's kiai:
Said that when OSensei don't like the kiais he said whit fury"go out and don't come back before trough birds whit your kiai".
Sorry for my bad english.

More salutes of spain.

ChristianBoddum
03-09-2003, 12:28 PM
Hi Venan !

I'm definitely no expert at this but I'll take a shot at it.

In my training I've been taught that you can

develop kiai power in the body without making

sounds,and training should be as quiet and attentive as possible,so that you in fact can

hear the sounds of techniques,like f.x. ukemi

done right.

A second thing is I think in the most cases Ueshiba (O'sensei) used kiai when doing ken-tai-ken type training.

Thirdly kiai used in hand-to-hand aikido is

very very powerful and should only be applied to strong and skillful ukes.

The first time I was uke in a demonstration

in the difference of using and not using kiai,

I was shocked by the effect.

It is a lot safer training without kiai,but

in a selfdefence situation it will supercharge your techniques.

Hopefully more precise answers will show up,

but it is a good question.

yours - Chr.B

:rolleyes:

Kevin Leavitt
03-09-2003, 03:34 PM
I think if you cannot control your technique when doing ki'ai it is because you do not practice it enough to be able to "walk and chew gum" at same time.

Ki' ai can be very effective as an energy source.

When you get into the concept of kotodama dealing with "root" sounds and the vibration of energy, (you see it as OM) in yoga...sound is a very important part of KI or energy.

Ki'ai serves to focus that energy at a particular point....I found it much easier to us in Karate than in Aikido given the fluid nature of most of our practice.

Saotome Sensei likes to us it especially during sword work. It is difficult to do for sure!

mura-san
03-09-2003, 06:33 PM
Every know that there isn't kenjutsu if there isn't kiai and every know that the taijutsu waza born to the weapons waza,it's really in aikido.

If we use own hand's to cut and armonize whit uke or make nage to uke,for ejem. in shihonage technics in the last step when we cut to own back whit the uke's arm think that it's a boken, think is kiai good for own cut in taijutsu waza?.

Sorry for my english.

Salutes of Spain

Kevin Wilbanks
03-09-2003, 07:12 PM
I don't buy into any of that sacred sound stuff, but I do think it would be very difficult to incorporate loud, staccato, japanese-style shouts into throwing without those throws becoming very abrupt, intense and energetic. So, as Christian said, it seems to make sense that such sounds are only reserved for special situations. If you found a way to scream and holler while doing smooth, gentle things, there would be an unwanted disconnect between the vocalization and your movement, and it would end up being an affectation. I think it would be possible to open up the idea of kiai to incorporate a whole range of different sounds in a kind of musical and flowing way, a la Bruce Lee, but I'm afraid it would be a little too zany and embarassing for most Aikidoka, and/or Aikido would quickly become a laughing stock.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-10-2003, 12:12 AM
We don't do kiai in the Yoshokai dojo I primarily train at here in MN, but when I go back home to CA over break, the sensei I train with there does use kiai, and has them as a regular part of practice. I think it makes sense - both in a breath/kokyu sense, and also in a more vaguely ki-sense: putting your energy into the motion. Shouting does all kinds of psychological things to you, from what I can tell: shouts are associated with intense emotion, for one thing, so adrenaline, etc. seems to kick in.

Also, I suggest that perhaps that very nervousness about shouting like someone from a wacky martial arts movie adds to the kiai. Or rather, the fact that it requires considerable confidence and abandon to shout as you execute a technique: you must be secure in what you're doing, and be able to put nervousness/fear of looking silly aside. I find that although cries of IEIII! etc. are in a sense silly, they most certainly do not seem silly when the sensei uses them!

In addition, on a more practical note, a shout is very startling to an attacker, and making them freeze up a bit or jump, etc. could create enough of a delay for a technique to be executed when you would otherwise be too slow.

mura-san
03-10-2003, 09:21 AM
We are remember that the kiai hasn't only one strong form,the kiai and de sounds are slowly or fast,tall or short,storng or ......

The kiai is kokyu into the technic and the most smooth make strong the technic.

Ron Tisdale
03-10-2003, 11:53 AM
Hello Paul Sanderson,

You train in a Yoshokai dojo? Under Kushida Sensei? When you throw to a pin in shihonage, don't you kiai using ei when you strike before releasing the pin?

Daito ryu uses kiai...ei, ya, to, ha ... I find the various kiai very usefull when used sparingly. Too much emphasis seems to fray my partners nerves :)

For a while I concentrated on it a fair amount...now I'm trying to back off of it, and be much more selective in its use. From observing some of the kiai in clasical bujutsu, some interesting applications have come into my practise.

Couple of warnings though...some people watch to see when you are likely to kiai...and then break your jaw when you open your mouth. :)

Also, don't expell all of your air. Many senior instructors can be seen to "seal the breath" when they kiai, and to always keep some air in reserve.

Ron Tisdale

ian
03-10-2003, 05:53 PM
We don't use (vocal) kiai in taijutsu though we do occassionally in kenjutsu. Even when training with beginners the vocalisation has a massive difference in the power they produce. I often encourage a kiai in the first leg cut of the second kumitachi - I think it is useful because it is a very quick and short stroke which nevertheless requires some power. I always find if the attacker uses kiai for this strike I also have to use it to defend with adequate power!

Ueshiba appeared to utilise kiai extensively in all his training (that I've seen on video- obviously lots of the footage is silent so you never get to hear it!). In the kenjutsu it appears he uses the ee noise when he is 'defending' (guiding) and attack and the yah when he is doing (or attempting) a finishing blow.

JW
03-10-2003, 07:46 PM
Couple of warnings though...some people watch to see when you are likely to kiai...and then break your jaw when you open your mouth. :)
Heh heh.. if your partner has that much left to dish out when you are trying to kiai, then I guess your kiai would have been a futile attempt anyway. The way I see it.. when it is time to kiai, it isn't the type of situation where there is much of a struggle or 2-way interaction going on any more..

But back to the original post, and to the idea that aikido movements don't really "fit" with kiai..
The point of the thread as I see it was that M. Ueshiba indeed did kiai a lot, even in taijutsu. So, him being the founder of aikido and all, doesn't that mean aikido's movements really ARE the type of movement where kiai is appropriate, and useful?
--JW

Alfonso
03-10-2003, 09:03 PM
At ADV it goes in cycles, though I haven't figured out why or what are they about.

In any case, I was taught to kiai as atemi (there we go again) so I don't really understand what you mean by
when it is time to kiai, it isn't the type of situation where there is much of a struggle or 2-way interaction going on any more..

in my experience (limited as it is, but it wasn't something I'd read about) Kiai are actually hard to work with because sometimes it'll freeze the receiver.. unless you kiai back as was mentioned...

the one thing I haven't worked out is how to avoid the energy drain, I mean I can't kiai more than a couple of times in randori , more than that and I feel weak as a kitten (as well as exhausted, which is the usual) . I guess it's improper breathing , though without that I can't see how you could get a decent kiai anyway.

I don't know, kiai seems to be there in Aikido along with the other things people have different backgrounds in.

(i like kiai)

Ghost Fox
03-11-2003, 07:52 AM
Hello Paul Sanderson,

Daito ryu uses kiai...ei, ya, to, ha ... I find the various kiai very usefull when used sparingly. Too much emphasis seems to fray my partners nerves :)

Ron Tisdale
Do people use specific Kiai during specific moments in a technique (beginning, middle, end)?

Do you use specific Kiai during specific movements (Tenkan, Tenkai, Irimi)?

Does anyone use specific Kiai when they are Nage vs. when they are Uke?

Do you do different Kiai with different attacks (Shomenuchi, Tsuki, Yokomenuchi)?

If so what is your rational?

Doug Mathieu
03-11-2003, 01:51 PM
Hi

In Western Canada I don't see much use of Kiai in regular training however our Shihan has asked us to use Kiai sometimes during training seminars for empty hand and weapons.

He has told us it does not have to be a loud shout and his demonstration of it was a bit louder than normal conversation tones.

I also noticed once when watching a tape of Pat Hendricks Sensei that during empty hand work she doesn't make many loud Kiais but she does make a lot of small sounds throughout the movement. We could hear it because of the microphone being used. Because of that I have been trying it too to help my breathing patterns and I have found it very useful.

If they are classed as Kiai at a low volume then I feel it has been really helpful to myself. I can last longer and apply whole body movement better.

Alfonso
03-11-2003, 04:45 PM
I'd love to see more qualified information but for what it's worth, these are the only sounds i've paired up with physical effects in which I feel the sound fits with the movement

EIIIII on cutting entering

TOO on blending / deflecting/ tenkan

still , playing around with IA, SA, SU and others..

(BTW these are sounds as in the romance vocals AEIOU rather than anglicized ahh eh hee ho oooo)

I bet there's better info on kiai sounds somewhere.

kung fu hamster
03-12-2003, 09:25 AM
In our dojo we're taught that kiai can be thought of as a weapon in your arsenal. If you think you may ever need to use it as such then I think you need to practice it. Have you ever heard a class of beginners trying to kiai for the first time? Many of them might as well shout "peep!" If you don't practice it then maybe when you need it, all you'll be able to muster up is a disheartening croak. I was attacked many years ago by a mugger and although I thought before that I was fairly strong, all my strength drained into the ground and I saw with amazement that I was weak as a kitten when I tried to hit back at him. If one point of all the training (out of many) is to make your defensive responses second nature, then I think that applies to a piercing kiai as well.

paw
03-12-2003, 09:36 AM
Linda,
I was attacked many years ago by a mugger and although I thought before that I was fairly strong, all my strength drained into the ground and I saw with amazement that I was weak as a kitten when I tried to hit back at him.

Sounds like an adrenaline dump. If so, that's not an uncommon reaction. If you're concerned about it, structure your training to experience more of them ... then you'll get used to it.

Regards,

Paul

Ron Tisdale
03-12-2003, 10:49 AM
From aikido;

ei -- used in finishing strikes or cutting with boken.

to (long o) -- used to protect...and when delivering (or recieving) the atemi which is often part of sokomen iriminage.

From Daito ryu;

ei -- cutting

ya -- throwing

to -- atemi or striking

ha -- breaking or cutting (often used with the finishing strike at the end of kata)

All of these often sound like they have a "p" on the end from people "sealing the breath" after the kiai.

"Heh heh.. if your partner has that much left to dish out when you are trying to kiai, then I guess your kiai would have been a futile attempt anyway. "

You are absolutely correct Jonathon...there is always someone out there who will surprise you. You might *think* your timing and body placement are perfect when you kiai, only to discover someone has set you up. Had it happen, seen it happen, will probably see it again. Everything has a weak point. If you know it, then you can defend against it. I know of people who train their reaction to such a loud noise in sparring to throw a hook. Get caught with that with your mouth open and you will get your jaw broken.

Alfonso,

One thing you can do to avoid the energy drain is to **never** expell all of your breath on any kiai. Always keep a reserve. And timing is much more important than volume.

Ron Tisdale

MattRice
03-12-2003, 10:52 AM
Linda,



Sounds like an adrenaline dump. If so, that's not an uncommon reaction. If you're concerned about it, structure your training to experience more of them ... then you'll get used to it.

Regards,

Paul
Hey Paul

how can we do that? I've not experienced much in any dojo that gives me the rush of an actual confrontation. Even free sparring/competition don't do it. Not trying to argue, just wondering what you have in mind.

Matt

paw
03-12-2003, 11:25 AM
Matt,
how can we do that?

It varies from person to person. I've seen people have adrenaline dumps and panic attacks on kyu exams. Personally, I've had adrenaline dumps before matches in shiai. But I digress....

Payton Quinn (http://www.fastdefense.com/whyadrenalconditioning.htm) and Tony Blauer (http://www.tonyblauer.com/pd/index.html) (just to name two people who do this sort of thing) use scenario based training to generate adrenaline dumps.

Regards,

Paul

Alfonso
03-25-2003, 06:01 PM
Ron, I hadn't seen your suggestions. I appreciate the information very much and will work on this now.

domo arigato gozaimashita

(gee where's the bowing icon when I need it)

mura-san
03-26-2003, 12:08 AM
Well there are two more interesting dokas of OSensei for our study about of kiai use.

It's in Spanish sorry,but it's in OSensei's books:

"Controla la voz que grita

"ˇYahˇ".Ve atraves de la

realidad.Permanece

inamovible ante la tactica del

enemigo"



"ˇˇEiˇˇ"

Cortad de arriba a abajo al enemigo

que se oculta dentro de uno mismo

y guiad todas las cosas

con gritos de "ˇYaaˇ"y"ˇIeiˇ"

Is the OSensei's ensinament the real aikido or no?Why we dosen't learn kiai if OSensei said Kiai?
In a intrviu to Hitihiro Saito he said taht the sounds Ei ,Yaa,Iei, also OSensei said Ei,Yaa,To.
Sorry for my bad english

Mark Balogh
03-26-2003, 06:26 AM
In Daito Ryu they use Toh! Yah! and Hap! to name a few kiai's. All have meaning but are mostly destructive, therefore not appropriate for Aikido. Interesting to see some of the origins though.

Dave Miller
04-24-2003, 03:57 PM
I was just talking about this the other day with one of my sensais. We were preparing for a public demo using more "real world" attacks. The uke (who holds shodan in Aikido both and TKD) stepped up and delivered a controled strike with a strong, albeit muted, kiai. The poor tori just about fell over they were so startled. This led to a "sidebar" discussion that perhaps we should work on incorperate kiai into some of our techniques.

What are some specific techniques (especially more basic techniques) that some of you use kiai in?