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Guest
02-21-2003, 01:28 PM
Hello, Aikidoists. I am not an Aikido practitioner, so please forgive me in advance if I make errors.

I am a writer, and would be most grateful if someone could assist me with a vexing problem I've encountered with my main character.

Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)? I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind).

Many thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer me.

shihonage
02-21-2003, 02:19 PM
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)?


Not without a cloth dipped generously in chloroform.

...

In other news, "Kung Fu: The Legend Continues" is not Reality Television.

Carl Simard
02-21-2003, 03:23 PM
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)?
Unconscious sounds a bit extreme. Unable to move or attack or disabling the attacker is more realistic. The talk about non violence in aikido is in perspective to other martial arts. Compared to kenpo karate, for example, aikido will looks smoother. But there is nonetheless physical contact, punchs and throw. This "non violent" perception is also probably due for a large part in the goal of aikido. In many martial arts, the goal is to pratically destroy your opponent by kicking/punching him the harder you can, trying to make as much damage as possible in the shortest time. In aikido, the goal is to take (or keep) control of your opponent by doing him the less physical damage possible. So, the goal is somewhat non violent in the sense that you don't physically hurt your opponent if you don't need to... But, if need be, you can quite easily severely wound the opponent.
I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind).
Well, there's many technique that can cause pain as hell in your wrist... However, in the way you describe it, "kote gaeshi" may be the technique you think about.

Your hands, and the hand of the opponent, are in front of you, about the height of your belly.

The attack can come from anywhere. The art in itself is to bring these hands in front of you... Other may agree with me or not on that, as it's more a personnal evaluation, but I found that this technique is easier to do on a punch type attack (bare hand or armed) coming from the front, ideally a punch in the belly for example. The harder will be a grappling attack from behind (but it's possible to do it, just not the easiest thing to do).

For a look at this technique, give a look at the multimedia section of aikiweb, at the clip named "Chida99-2". It's a nice kote gaeshi...
Many thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer me.
You're welcome and hope that this may help you.

Alfonso
02-21-2003, 03:23 PM
Pressure points are not part of the basic curriculum most commonly found in Aikido.

Some folks do study them though, and post in these forums (much to some other folks' amusement).

I suggest you stick around for a while, they'll show up, and may give you more details.

I understand there's a Dr. John Riggs, who posts sometimes here that has written an article for black belt magazine on the subject(to be published)

Any discussion on the subject will be peppered with the good the bad and the ugly since it's a topic that inspires some level of heat..

MikeE
02-21-2003, 04:34 PM
Any discussion on the subject will be peppered with the good the bad and the ugly since it's a topic that inspires some level of heat..
Only from the ignorant to the uncentered.

mattholmes
02-21-2003, 07:32 PM
I imagine that when you posted, you were figuring, "Oh, I don't know aikido, but I remember this cool wrist thing. I'll ask the aikido people what 'the wrist thing' is, they will recognize it, tell me what it is, and I'll be able to use it and move on." Sorry, but I don't think that's going to work out for you.

First of all, the aikido practioner that you met could have come from any number of mainstream or more "progressive" schools, where they could have studied an array of variations that most aikido practioners might or might not recognize.

Second, there's a lot of different "wrist things" that will get you on the ground. Personally, from your description (and personal experience with what gets good appreciation as a party trick), I'm envisioning nikkyo. This is [other aikidoka: this is my own explanation; you may or may not explain it similarly] where the outside non-thumb side of the hand is grasped and rotated sort of inwards in a corkscrew twist, while the wrist is held to provide tension.

Third, I'm again sorry, but I don't see that just knowing a name is going to add much to your work. "He did nikkyo on the Bad Guy, causing the Bad Guy collapsed like a house of cards. He then... " So what do I suggest? I suggest that you take up aikido. Not too likely, but I thought it was worth a shot.

Good luck,

Matt

Hogan
02-21-2003, 08:54 PM
"...I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind)....


If I understand you correctly, I think what you describe (by using the word 'acupressure') is a technique called "yonkyo". It is applying pressure on a nerve on the inside of your wrist. The nerve is about 2 inces "below" the actual bend in the wrist, on the "top" bone of the arm, and on the inside of your arm. Sometimes it is pretty hard to get, sometimes it is pretty easy.

If you want to find it on yourself, just take your thumb of your other hand and move it around the area I described on the other, until you "hit" a nerve.

Kelly Allen
02-22-2003, 03:04 AM
Yes John! Yonkyo is what I thought was being described too. Doesn't necessarily drop people though. Some times it brings them up on their toes. The use of Yonkyo,in my Dojo anyway, is used more to shock the opponent enough to help you take him off balance and initiate a technic. When practicing Yonkyo, after the third or fourth time it is applied on me, the falling house of cards is a good description of what I do. With repeated Yonkyo the nerve tends to get more and more tender, thus more painful. Ouch!

mike lee
02-22-2003, 09:10 AM
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence ... ?

An aikidoist can do whatever he's been trained to do with aikido or non-aikido techniques.

Generally speaking, judo is known for its "sleeper holds" in which an artery to the brain is pinched, rendering a victim unconsious until they revive or are revived. Such techniques can also lead to brain damage or death.

In aikido we use painful pins on the arms or legs. While in some cases such pins can damage the muscles and tendons, or break bones, they do not cause death.

aikidoc
02-22-2003, 09:00 PM
Josephine:

To comment, Alfonso was correct. I have been accepted by black belt magazine for publication of an article on the topic-still don't have a date yet. The article is focused on aikido striking of pressure points.

However, it is not a common aspect of aikido and is seldom taught. It is a particular interest of mine, my friend Gary Chase, and a few others practicing aikido. A few of us feel this is a lost aspect of the art. A very good book to explain the medical aspects is Dr. Michael Kelly's book: Death Touch. It explains medically what happens (vagovasal faint for example). He is not an aikido practitioner though. Causing people to black out is not a recommended practice for aikidoka or others for that matter since it has serious health implications for someone with heart disease.

Paula Lydon
02-22-2003, 11:16 PM
~~1) This isn't a standard part of Aikido training; there are other arts much more proficient in these techniques.

~~2) Anyone who truely understood this sort of technique wouldn't randomly share that info. with an unknown entity on a website. Bad karma.

~~3) You're a writer--make it up!

mike lee
02-23-2003, 02:40 AM
The article is focused on aikido striking of pressure points.

What aikido association or group do you belong to?

This is beginning to sound highly fraudulent. I think that various aikido associations, "Black Belt" magazine, and the town of Midland, Texas should be warned.

Hogan
02-23-2003, 08:51 AM
~~...Anyone who truely understood this sort of technique wouldn't randomly share that info. with an unknown entity on a website. Bad karma...
Somone asks for a name of a technique and we are not supposed to do tell them ? It's bad karma ? Well, everyone here on this board and an other boards are going straight to hell, then. I didn't know aikido was so secretive.

Paula Lydon
02-23-2003, 09:51 AM
~~Hi John H.!

No, I certainly have no problem telling someone the name of any technique...but trying to tell any 'ol somebody on a website where the placement of this and that is in order to execute the technique, then no, I consider that irresponsible. But that's just me; I wouldn't teach seriously harmful techs to someone who just wanted to kick-ass nor to children who haven't developed the necessary control/understand. So yeah, bad karma. Besides, there are many books free for him to research--with pictures and everything!--that would get him further than asking this question on this site. Take care :)

Hanna B
02-23-2003, 10:11 AM
Josephine,

i suggest you forget about aikido and search the web for Dim Mak and/or George Dillman instead.

Hogan
02-23-2003, 10:12 AM
"...but trying to tell any 'ol somebody on a website where the placement of this and that is in order to execute the technique, then no, I consider that irresponsible..."

This is done everyday on this and on other aikido websites. After all, all those that post here, for the most part, do not "know" everyone else - we are just people on a website who have never met (remember for the most part - I know some folks have met)

"...I wouldn't teach seriously harmful techs to someone who just wanted to kick-ass nor to children who haven't developed the necessary control/understand...."

Well, I guess we're different - I didn't assume his woman wanted to "kick-ass", nor did I assume she was a child. I figured she said who she said she was - a writer who needed help with research for a fictional charachter on a PAGE.

"...Besides, there are many books free for him to research--with pictures and everything!--that would get him further than asking this question on this site...."

This IS an aikido website - the "horses mouth" sort of speak.

This topic has made me think about how aikido people treat "outsiders". Someone comes in and asks a simple question, yet gets a bunch of answers unrelated to the question - and when someone gives a direct answer, someone has to object. This is not a secretive society.

Many examples are brought to my mind where someone who does not practice has asked an innocent question, and then is treated with disrespect or even insults. (NOTE - this insult comment NOT directed to this topic, but in examples brought to mind - OK maybe Mike Lee to John Riggs ;)). In my opninion, this turns folks off unnessesarily. If someone asks a direct question, answer directly !

Sorry, Paula - no offense, this just hit a nerve. Have a good one.... And sorry to all for my rant.

mike lee
02-23-2003, 11:20 AM
In my opninion, this turns folks off unnessesarily. If someone asks a direct question, answer directly !

Sorry, Paula - no offense, this just hit a nerve. Have a good one.... And sorry to all for my rant.

This entire thread is turning me off. I really have to wonder how many people on this thread that are providing "answers" actually even practice aikido, and if so, under what internationally recognized organization. Hell — I'd settle for a nationally recognized aikido organization or even a guy that has a legitimate aikido teacher.

If this non-sense is allowed to continue, the reputation of other aikido schools will be at stake as an indirect result. If somebody is claiming to be a legitimate aikido instructor and is not qualified to be one, I think that the aikido community and the public has a right to know.

When I find out the entire truth here, I will not hesitate to expose any fraudulant activity.

Paula Lydon
02-23-2003, 01:04 PM
~~Hi Josephine!

Meant no offense to you in expressing my general opinion. I agree with Hanna that research into Dim Mak would take you farther than an Aikido approach. Good luck! :)

Paula Lydon
02-23-2003, 01:13 PM
~~Hi John H.!

Rant if you need to, we all have our soft spots. I certainly have nothing against 'outsiders' on Aikido websites..I'm one myself! I've been a student of MA for 16 years, only the last 6 in Aikido. I believe this site is open to all martial artists, that's one thing I really like about it. Take care :)

Erik
02-23-2003, 02:38 PM
~~1) This isn't a standard part of Aikido training; there are other arts much more proficient in these techniques.
To me, this is one of the great unsolved mysteries of a particular poster who rants and raves about our deficiencies and how Morihei Ueshiba really grasped this stuff. If so, where is it in the mainstream teaching? Forgot, too secret to teach the masses.
~~2) Anyone who truely understood this sort of technique wouldn't randomly share that info. with an unknown entity on a website. Bad karma.
Sure they will, well, actually, ya gotta pony up $100 or whatever the going seminar rate is. I'm thinking they don't do background checks so the karma issue doesn't seem to matter much?
~~3) You're a writer--make it up!
Now there is a sound idea.

Erik
02-23-2003, 02:51 PM
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)? I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).
I've never seen it done in an Aikido class. I've never seen a shihan do it. I've never seen a clip of Morihei Ueshiba doing this. Everything I've seen done relied either on misdirection or good old fashioned spacing, movement, positioning and proper use of the body. I am assuming you are not talking about choking someone.

But hey, it's a work of fiction. It should fit right in with acupuncture and acupressure.

Long live Nicholas Linear.

Alfonso
02-24-2003, 05:32 PM
:D

Alfonso
02-24-2003, 05:55 PM
I've practiced Aikido for only 5 years in a dojo affiliated to ASU, whose head instructor is has been practicing Aikido under various instructors for a long time (40 years).

I passed my Ikkyu test last Dec, which made me very happy then, this ranks is registed in the ASU which hopefully means the Aikikai as well. On the other hand I doubt they would even care for a lowly mudansha

I don't know how to knock people out with pressure points, neither have I been knocked out by pp, nor have I seen this done at tje Dojo where I train.

Mike Lee: I'm very curious to know your background since you feel entitled to ask everyone to provide theirs. Since you write so much here and there, it would be nice to know why you feel so protective about Aikido, its reputation and the possible corruption of its members through exposure to ideas that could distract them from the "truth". AFAIK you don't make that information public; why?

BTW every seminar I've attended with Shihans, of the Japanese and non-japanese variety I'm confronted with the fact that I know squat about what Aikido is or isn't, though I may know a lot more than when I started.

..

one of the things I learned is that there's room enough for the good the bad the ugly and the arrogant (as well as the pious, the scholarly, the athletic, the badass, the fat stoners and the war criminals)

So, discussion tends to be interesting at least.

aikidoc
02-24-2003, 09:48 PM
Mike Lee wrote: "What aikido association or group do you belong to?

This is beginning to sound highly fraudulent. I think that various aikido associations, "Black Belt" magazine, and the town of Midland, Texas should be warned."

Mike: I belong to the Aikido Association of America-a hombu affiliated dojo. My study of pressure point and atemi applications in aikiddo is my own study and has nothing to do with my organization-freedom of speech and all that American stuff.

There is nothing fraudulent about it and I'm not sure if that was in jest or serious. The article has been accepted, I do live in Midland TX and I am the aikido dojocho at Ta Ch'u Academy.

Located thoughout the aikido literature are considerable references to atemi waza and sparse descriptions by O'Sensei's students of what "appears" to be pressure point strikes. I did considerable research for the article although I had to condense it down considerably to meet Black Belt Magazine's publication criteria. It was initially about 10,000 words-I had to cut it to about 3500.

aikidoc
02-24-2003, 09:52 PM
Mike Lee:

By the way, I'm not sure what your issue is with fraudulent activity. How about providing us with your credential. Organization, etc. You seem to demand it of others.

I teach aikido and I can back my credentials up with specifics: aikikai certificate numbers, dates of rank, etc. etc. Can you? Before you start accusing others of being fraudlent you might want to present your credentials to make such claims.

ikkainogakusei
02-24-2003, 10:43 PM
Hi Josephine

Um, I think if you really want to write this book with an aikidoist in mind, try taking a class or two. One inherent quality of a discussion forum with many people, is that everyone is an expert on their part of the proverbial elephant.

As for the technique you received; I kind-of pictured the nikkyo, but there's no telling because there are many wrist/forearm techniques.

Also, there is this flaw in writing about a martial artist, and that is to spend time describing the movement enough that it loses it's 'magic'. Steven J Gould (Fantastic evolutionary biologist, less than mediocre SciFi Author) wrote a book called Helm, which had a few descriptions, but they seemed forced.

As for the vago-vasal or as I learned it vaso-vagal [meaning that it is related to the blood vessels and the Vagus Nerve (tenth cranial, controls many functions of vital organs including cardio-vascular functions)]response; the whole idea of this being a safe way to render a person unconscious, is much like the cliche of whacking somebody on the head with a big rock, we see it in a lot of movies, but I wouldn't try it.

Uh, to use a less delicate example, there are quite a few cases of people having heart-attacks on the toilet due to self-induced vaso-vagal response. Meaning that they induce so much pressure in their own cardio-vascular system, that the baro-receptors open the vascular ststem as wide as it'll go, but often it's too late. I've done CPR on someone in the tiniest of bathrooms after this had happened to them.

Sorry if the thread hasn't shed the light needed. Hope it helps a little though.

:ai:

BC
02-25-2003, 01:02 PM
In the dojo I practice where I practice, we do practice a choke hold called hije shime (a sleeper hold), which can render a person unconcious by temporarily cutting off the blood supply to the brain via the coratid (sp?) artery. Very similar to techniques I learned in another martial art. Nothing magic about it, just basic anatomy and leverage.

Kelly Allen
02-26-2003, 06:00 AM
Mike Lee has already stated on a previous thread that he will not reveal his credentials. I do remember he did have a good reason for it. Or at least I felt it was a good reason at the time. However, since he has said that, he shouldn't expect others to for the same reasons.

Now back to the thread. Yonkyo! Definitly Yonkyo!

DaveO
02-26-2003, 06:31 AM
Possibly; probably Yonkyo. However; something makes me hesitate - a few weeks ago; I would have discounted pressure point techniques entirely as mere pain-causing strikes. But we have a visiting instructor that drops by from Chatham every now and then; Tony specializes in including pressure-point techniques in his Aikido. Being the big guy in the Dojo, he likes to use me as the test subject. (Oh, yay. LOL!) he hasn't demonstrated a 'wrist thing' as Josephine described it, put he did employ a technique in which he had my wrist, then struck downward on the forearm just above the inside elbow. It was a light strike - no pain involved yet I collapsed to the mat. Whatever anyone says, pressure points work. I don't know anything about them, all I know is I've felt the effect.

Josephine; when you described the 'wrist thing', you didn't mention if it was pain that put you down, or sudden weakness etc. If you could tell us that; it'll help us narrow down the name.

:)

Kelly Allen
02-27-2003, 02:42 AM
Dave you make it sound like Yonkyo is a strike to the nerve. It, as it was taught to me, is a presure applied by the extended index finger on a nerve located on either side of the wrist. Which side it is applied depends on the technic you have used it in. I have been able to apply it on everyone I have trained with. That doesn't mean the yonkyo was easy to find on everyone. It seems to be in slightly different spots on the wrist for everyone. I personally wouldn't depend on it in a tense situation. That dosen't mean that I wouldn't try it if I felt there was an opportunity during a technic I was useing to get out of a tense situation.

mike lee
02-27-2003, 03:12 AM
Mike Lee: I'm very curious to know your background since you feel entitled to ask everyone to provide theirs.
I never asked to know "everyone's" backround.

Pressure-point strikes are not a part of any internationally recognized aikido-training program. To imply in any way that they are is careless, especially from someone that would not even be considered to be at the level of shidoin in most organizations.

mike lee
02-27-2003, 03:21 AM
By the way, I'm not sure what your issue is with fraudulent activity. How about providing us with your credential. Organization, etc.

My credentials are not at issue here. I'm not writing an article for "Black Belt" magazine.

BTW. I will be writting a letter to the publication to express my deep reservations about your article. My credentials will be included in that letter.

Alfonso
02-27-2003, 11:20 AM
Hey Mike! , I was hoping you would reveal yourself (anonymity has its drawbacks doesn't it ;) for all we know you are a madman in disguise!) However, its your prerogative.

I have a hard time figuring where Aikido stops and where one can say "this is not Aikido". The principles I'm learning do not include injunctions such as "atemi can only be performed with your hands" . They'er more along the lines of "Blend" "Redirect" "Protect" . Certainly killing is not part of the story in my understanding. Personally I also back away from seeking to inflict pain, I try my best to let uke do that on their own..

However, people in this forum come from diverse backgrounds. I have noticed though that whenever this question pops up there are folks who argue that pressure-point strikes are effective Atemi, and fit well with Aikido waza, and that some instructors have done seminars on the subject! (as a matter of fact one of them is submitting an article to a magazine).

What I really was hoping for was some good discussion on the subject; why because its a hot-button topic around here!

I notice for example you do not deride pressure point striking as ridiculous. However you get upset at the idea that this could be "confused" with Aikido. On the other hand there are other folks who feel that this is witch doctor mumbo jumbo, but wouldn't feel compelled to circumscribe Aikido at all.

BTW, since I do not train in the AAA I'm not familiar with the shidoin requirements. I can assure you I feel very much a beginner! But again, if you don't want to say where you are coming from , then don't use authority as an argument, rather present you argument as to why things are or should be. Perhaps it's a pity, but I would respect your wisdom much more if I knew where it came from. Replies such as "Wrong", "Not true" , "Kaka" , or prehaps more polite forms of righteous indignation are really not helpful without explanation or context (i'll take your word though if you are Doshu).

aikidoc
02-27-2003, 11:40 AM
Mike Lee Response:

To address your comments:

1. I do hold shidoin status with my organization by the way which was earned via attendance at numerous instructor's seminars. I'm sure your reference is with regards to the fact that I am currently a sandan and you are a yondan. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. And what does it have to do with my ability to research and write an article from an academic perspective? I hold a masters degree in business and a doctorate of chiropractic medicine and have published numerous articles (9) previously including one in a refereed medical journal as well as a masters thesis. What is in question here? My research and writing ability or the topic? Apparently, you have issue with the topic.

2. The article submitted is specifically about research into the aikido literature and some ancillary literature showing what has been written about aikido striking and pressure point usage. It traces the history of striking (atemi) and pressure point applications from India and into the locking and pinning arts including aikido. The article has 28 references, which is a third of the material read to develop the topic. It makes no claim that anyone is teaching it on a regular basis but idenifies that numerous people in the aikido community are interested in the topic, study the topic, and feel that it has a place in aikido for those interested in the martial perspective. It also connects the pressure point references on acupuncture points to the actual nerve location-that is Western medicine points or nerves. It makes no outlandish claims about knocking people out and in fact discusses this as a dangerous practice (vasovagal faint is a medically documented phenomenon). It also includes results of a survey I conducted of 5th dan aikido practitioners and above on an international basis, including responses from some head instructors of aikido organizations. The article finishes with an application of a specific technique to show how nerve points can be used to help make the technique more effective without disrupting the flow of the art. It concludes with my "opinion" as to the role of striking and nerve points in aikido. It make no assumptions that my views represent anyone elses.

If you should chance to research the aikido literature, you will find O'Sensei himself placed great importance on striking in his art. Saito sensei in his books makes reference to striking vital points and stressed the importance of atemi waza. There are numerous references to striking vital points in the aikido literature. In fact, a book was written in Japanese on the topic (no longer available)-I believe it was by Hashimoto (don't have the reference in front of me).

I find it disturbing that you are going to write a letter to BBM with apparently accusations of fraud regarding an article that you know absolutely nothing about. This magazine publishes articles regularly on pressure point applications either via Dim Mak or Kyusho Jitsu. There has only been one other article written on the topic in the aikido literature and the cited book. Yet, you have taken it upon yourself to champion your own issue with the topic-without knowing the issues addressed, the content of the article or anything else about it. A more constructive and objective approach would be to read the article when it comes out and then vent your critcisms in a productive well researched manner.

I'm not sure why you detest this topic so much. However, there are aikidoka interested in the topic (some at 6th and 7th dan levels and higher-aikikai affiliated) and choose to study it for their own personal development. I'm sure those people have no interest in trying to convert you to any belief system. I know I am not. Additionally, a non-emotional, logical discussion of the topic allows people to make choices as to whether there is validity to studying striking and pressure points of if this is not something that fits their aikido paradigm.

What I perceive here is someone with a very non-aiki response to an issue that apparently bothers them. Exercise some aiki spirit and try to be more harmonious with your posts and not criticize issues without having thoroughly researched them and perhaps asking specifically what is being discussed. Making assumptions is non-productive.

Academic freedom, the right to express one's research in press is a right we all share here in the U.S. I chose to use that right by researching and writing on a topic of interest to me. If you do not like the topic, that is your choice. The easiest solution is to read the topics you like. However, to criticize others for exercising that right interferes with their individual freedom of expression and choise.

aikidoc
02-27-2003, 12:09 PM
By the way Mike, when you take it upon yourself to criticize others and "write letters" and question others credentials, your credentials do become an issue. To suggest otherwise is a cop out.

Also, to suggest that I stated this topic was being practiced internationally is not accurate. Read my posts. I stated some aikiodoka are interested in this topic. I never stated it was part of a formal training program. If it is, I have no knowledge of that since it is up to the individual school/organization. As a journalist, I would think you would try to be more accurate with your statements about what was said.

DaveO
02-27-2003, 12:14 PM
Dave you make it sound like Yonkyo is a strike to the nerve. It, as it was taught to me, is a presure applied by the extended index finger on a nerve located on either side of the wrist. Which side it is applied depends on the technic you have used it in. I have been able to apply it on everyone I have trained with. That doesn't mean the yonkyo was easy to find on everyone. It seems to be in slightly different spots on the wrist for everyone. I personally wouldn't depend on it in a tense situation. That dosen't mean that I wouldn't try it if I felt there was an opportunity during a technic I was useing to get out of a tense situation.
Hi, Kelly; sorry if I wasn't very clear...what Tony did on me wasn'tYonkyo, it was a pressure-point technique. Yonkyo hurts like a bugger; this didn't hurt at all; yet I folded anyway. Ineresting.

Sorry 'bout that; hope this clears it up. :)

John Boswell
02-27-2003, 03:42 PM
Wow... interesting thread here!

Speaking as someone in his first year of training under Riggs Sensei, I can tell you first hand that he is A) A strict believer in credentials B) An avid researcher and practitioner of Aikido and C) He can and will back up everything he says by executing technique. I have first-hand knowledge that you can put someone in Nikyo, but that with a certain squeeze in just the right place... it goes on much easier.

GETTING BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND... I would recommend to the writer interested in Aikido and just what it can do for the purpose of writing a "book", go take a CLASS !! What could be better than first-hand knowledge?? Might even develope some back-story for your characters.

Have a nice day! :)

aikidoc
02-28-2003, 07:11 AM
Skillful speech not only means that we pay attention to the words we speak and to their tone but also requires that our words reflect compassion and concern for others and that they help and heal, rather than wound and destroy.

-Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, "Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness"

Larry Feldman
02-28-2003, 08:47 AM
Josephine - Use the dojo search engine on this site to find a local dojo. They should be able to easily demonstrate all the major wrist techniques for you (ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, kote kaeshi and yonkyo).

I would suggest watching a few classes so your writing would keep the aikido movements in context.

Good luck with the book.

mike lee
03-01-2003, 05:08 AM
What I perceive here is someone with a very non-aiki response to an issue that apparently bothers them.

Striking vital areas of someones body is "non-aiki," especially when aikido offers so many better alternatives. This, as most aikidoists know, is what makes the art morally and ethically superior to most other martial arts, specifically striking arts.

Most students know this, and anyone who is instructing the art should know this. O-Sensei clearly stated that when someone intends to strike, this intent defies the laws of the universe.

Atemi in aikido is used only as a distraction or to check one's position. Any physical contact with atemi is usually only accidental.

Anyone who implies that striking vital areas as a part of aikido is wrong. I think that AAA, the IAF, Aikikai Hombu Dojo, and The Chamber of Commerce in Midland, Texas should be made aware of anyone who would make such an impllication.

The striking of vital points should only be taught by someone who is an expert in such an art. Aikido is not such an art.

I have received instruction from many top teachers from around the world, including Doshu. Never, at any time did any of them ever even remotely imply that striking vital areas is a part of aikido training or practice. Any teacher that would imply otherwise, would be negligent.

P.S. Aikido originated in Japan, not India.

Peter Goldsbury
03-01-2003, 06:38 AM
Hello, Aikidoists. I am not an Aikido practitioner, so please forgive me in advance if I make errors.

I am a writer, and would be most grateful if someone could assist me with a vexing problem I've encountered with my main character.

Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)? I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind).

Many thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer me.
Ms. Louis,

Well, your question has given rise to a very interesting thread, but I am not sure whether it will help in dealing with the problem of your main character.

I suggest you go to a dojo and either practise with, or talk to, a high-ranking aikido practitioner. I would think that 6th dan or above would be about right. Since you post from the UK and I am familiar with aikido in the UK, I can provide you with details and introductions if necessary. Feel free to contact privately if you wish (my address is in my profile).

Best regards,

aikidoc
03-01-2003, 08:44 AM
Mike Lee Wrote: "Striking vital areas of someones body is "non-aiki," especially when aikido offers so many better alternatives. This, as most aikidoists know, is what makes the art morally and ethically superior to most other martial arts, specifically striking arts.

Most students know this, and anyone who is instructing the art should know this. O-Sensei clearly stated that when someone intends to strike, this intent defies the laws of the universe.

Atemi in aikido is used only as a distraction or to check one's position. Any physical contact with atemi is usually only accidental."

The statement that striking pressure points in aikido is historically inaccurate. Because it is not practiced heavily now does not mean it was not part of aikido and is not being practiced in the art. Yes, it is true aikido originated in Japan; however, the locking and pnning arts picked up the use of atemi to vital points via India. There is a historical connection. Read the Bodhisattva Warriors. Daito-Ryu, one of the arts serving as an element of aikido development also used atemi to vital points or nerve points.

Saito defines atemi as a strike to vital points and "delivering blows to the body prior to applying techniques" (Saito, 1994: 172; Saito, 1974: 7). Saito, one of O'Sensei's longest personal students and 9th degree black belt (dan), asserted the lack of training in atemi strikes to vital points is a widespread modern training deficiency and may cause technique to become incomprehensible and meaningless. He considered it an essential element of basic and advanced technique.

Other definitions include: strikes directed toward openings in vital points to unbalance and distract the attacker, or a "finalizing blow in the termination of the entrapped attacker" (Crane & Crane, 1993: 39); . . ."to momentarily disturb an opponents Ki with Kime, Nage, or Osae executions"; . . . "to control him by simply striking him with the hand or elbow at the moment he loses his balance" (Shimizu, 1995: l0); and a defensive, non-devastating blow to neutralize the attacker's ki, and make it easier to guide the attack and unbalance them for a technique, without injury (Stevens, 1985: 195; Stevens, 1993: 117). More sophisticated definitions include the use of atemi as: 1) a technique to end confrontation, kill, knock out, or disable limbs; 2) a method to facilitate other techniques by causing pain, decreasing resistance, shifting attack energy, and altering body posture; and 3) a method to control the mind of the attacker (Ledyard, 1998: 33 34).

Ueshiba Kisshomaru, the founder’s son, noted although Aikido gives the appearance of being soft, "it can actually be "hard," vigorous and dynamic, with powerful wrist locks and direct strikes. Contrary to what one might assume aikido contains several devastating techniques, especially those meant to disarm and subdue the enemy." (Ueshiba, K., 1987: 18). The Doshu comment on direct strikes is his not mine.

O’Sensei himself considered atemi-waza a basic element of Aikido as evident in his writings. Many of O’Sensei’s senior students have attributed the importance of atemi-waza any where up to 99% of Aikido-depending on the storyteller.

Mike I understand your position and I found in my survey that many people to hold the same paradigm of aikido. However, to essentially call me a liar and a fraud (slanderous implications) and threaten to tell everyone in the world when I am simply researching and reporting the available aikido literature is irresponsible. As a journalist, you should do your research. I would be happy to provide you with a bibliography if you choose to read the relevant literature.

I stand by my discussion. The article is based on a review of the aikido historical literature. I did not write these things. O'Sensei's students and high ranking aikidoka did. To imply otherwise is to accuse them of fraud as well. I simply wrote about what I found.

You definitely have the right to practice and study aikido in any way you choose as do I and others interested in the topic. I have not had the opportunity to study under Doshu, however, I have a tape showing the current Doshu delivering a strike to the forehead (which was blocked by the uke) which would very likely have hit a pressure point on the head and would have been quite forceful if not blocked. This is off a yokomen attack.

You are surely correct in the desire to practice aikido the way you perceive it. However, others also have the right to practice aikido as they view it as well. That does not make them frauds it simply makes their style of aikido slightly different. Hence the many organizations of aikido out there (are they all frauds as well since some do not practice your way?).

Do your research. That means you have to read all of the aikido literature by the top writers in the field. If you still cannot find any references on aikido and striking then let me know and I will gladly quote you the pages and sources.

aikidoc
03-01-2003, 08:54 AM
By the way, Peter is a very respected member of the aikido world and is president of the IAF. His comments imply he has read the thread. I would ask him directly if any of my statements are so heretical as Mr. Lee implies. Especially, to warrant such acrimony and accusations of fraud.

aikidoc
03-01-2003, 08:58 AM
Dr. Goldsbury, having read the thread, is apparently already aware of my comments. So Mike, you can save at least one letter to tell on me-the one to the IAF.

aikidoc
03-01-2003, 09:35 AM
Mike: I also direct your attention to a recent Aikido Journal article by Stanley Pranin on the need for atemi in the art. Stanley is a well respected author and the editor of Aikido Journal.

You can also save your letter telling on me to the AAA as well. My sensei, the chief instructor and current head of the organization, has read the article in its entirety.

DaveO
03-01-2003, 10:05 AM
LOL - Now, THAT was impressive. I'd like to debate you sometime, Sir. ;)

I have a related question, if I might:

There are vast differences between the styles of Aikido; in my dojo we recently had the pleasure of having a Yoshinkan student train with us (We're Ki Society) and I was surprised not only in the difference of technique but in the basic philosophy of the art itself. (You might have guessed; I'm a newcomer to Aikido; a bit less than a year.)

This thread has brought the question to me; how different does a style have to become before it is no longer considered Aikido?

Thanx!

Dave

George S. Ledyard
03-01-2003, 11:06 AM
An aikidoist can do whatever he's been trained to do with aikido or non-aikido techniques.

Generally speaking, judo is known for its "sleeper holds" in which an artery to the brain is pinched, rendering a victim unconsious until they revive or are revived. Such techniques can also lead to brain damage or death.

In aikido we use painful pins on the arms or legs. While in some cases such pins can damage the muscles and tendons, or break bones, they do not cause death.
Actually, we were taught the so-called sleeper hold within Aikido. Philsophically it fits within the non-violent outlook of our art as it has a very low liklihood of inflicting injury. The sleeper has been used within the judo community for years with thousands of practitioners choked out without any fatalities. The misconception that it was dangerous started within the US law enforcement community when several subjects died after the sleepr was put on. In most of thsoe cases, it has turned out, the subject was suffering from manic exhaustive syndrome or cocaine psychosis and would have died anyway. It was not the sleeper that killed them. This technique is undergoing a restoration in many agencies because it actually prevents injuries to officers and subjects.

aikidoc
03-01-2003, 11:39 AM
Dave:

Who did you want to debate? Me or Mike? I tried to back my stuff up with facts not emotions.

To answer your question would require another thread I think. What appears to have happened in the aikido literature starting with Tohei's split (I'm not sure if he was the first historically) is that "styles" of aikido evolved out of what was learned at that evolutionary phase of O'Sensei's aikido. I believe O'Sensei was quoted as noting when someone stated they wanted to learn his aikido that it was interesting since everyone else seemed to want to do their own thing. We seem to have evolved several different philosophies and "styles": ki society-more ki oriented; hombu; yoshikan (which I guess is more like early aikido); iwama-ryu; and Tomiki (more a judo flavor). There are many off-shoots from there. I think they are all doing what they have learned as aikido and what has evolved as a result. My personal preference has been to affiliate with the hombu just because it is the closer connection to the original art. I did start out in Ki Society and I have seen many different styles in seminars. I even see slight differences in the way aikikai organizations practice and their kihon waza. It's still aikido in my book.

DaveO
03-01-2003, 12:01 PM
Dave:

Who did you want to debate? Me or Mike? I tried to back my stuff up with facts not emotions.
Thanks for your response; just to make sure we're clear, it was meant as a compliment - I believe strongly with debating on facts, not emotions; finding people who do the same is rare these days; at least in the circles in which I move. :)

George S. Ledyard
03-01-2003, 12:04 PM
Striking vital areas of someones body is "non-aiki," especially when aikido offers so many better alternatives. This, as most aikidoists know, is what makes the art morally and ethically superior to most other martial arts, specifically striking arts.

Most students know this, and anyone who is instructing the art should know this. O-Sensei clearly stated that when someone intends to strike, this intent defies the laws of the universe.

Atemi in aikido is used only as a distraction or to check one's position. Any physical contact with atemi is usually only accidental.

Anyone who implies that striking vital areas as a part of aikido is wrong. I think that AAA, the IAF, Aikikai Hombu Dojo, and The Chamber of Commerce in Midland, Texas should be made aware of anyone who would make such an impllication.

The striking of vital points should only be taught by someone who is an expert in such an art. Aikido is not such an art.

I have received instruction from many top teachers from around the world, including Doshu. Never, at any time did any of them ever even remotely imply that striking vital areas is a part of aikido training or practice. Any teacher that would imply otherwise, would be negligent.

P.S. Aikido originated in Japan, not India.
Well, I normally let people have theirs opinions since almost all areas of discussion have their gray areas. But in this case Mike, I simply have to tell you that you are wrong. I think it is very important to distinguish between what is taught around the world in a public forum by the various high level teachers who are on the seminar circuit and what they teach their own deshi privately. If you have not been taught the use of atemi then your training is superficial. You might be able to execute your technique against a person of little or no skill without the use of atemi but there is NO CHANCE that you will do so against an opponent who is trained.

Your blanket statements and the aggressive manner in which you make them only leave you looking foolish. I have trained with Saotome Sensei for 26 years (He in turn trained under the Founder for fifteen). At the heart of his Aikido is atemi. Everything works because of that fact. In practice the atemi is usually implicit rather than explicit but it is there. When one trains with a person who is not aware of this one can tell imediately and his techniques are all stoppable.

To say atemi is un-aiki is a complete misunderstanding of what is aiki. It indicates a very simplistic idea of what non-violence actually is. Your statement essentially says that Saotome Sensei, Nishio Sensei, Chiba Sensei, Hikitsuchi Sensei, Shioda Sensei, all teachers with whom I am fairly familiar either directly or through their top students, don't understand aiki, that their Aikido is somehow non-authentic. That is ridiculous.

I have no idea what your background is, with whom you have trained etc. Since you do not spell it out then I risk insulting them by extension when I tell you that you are simply wrong in this. Either you have not trained with someone extensively enough that he thought it was neccesary to teach you the more martial aspects of the art or you have not trained with anyone who knew what he was doing. Of the two possibilities I think that the first is the more likely but in the absence of hard information from you one can only speculate.

As addressed by the folks who have been discussing Stan Pranin's articles about trying to regain the martial edge in Aikido we suffer in the art because we do not have competition. The reasons for this have to do with safety and O-Sensei's desire not to water down the art by establishing the limitations and rules that would be entailed by having competition. But the lack of competition allows people to make all manner of assertions which do not have to be backed up in the world of reality. Clint George Sensei calls this "wishful thinking" Aikido. I can simply state to you that if you decided to remove atemi from your repetoire you could not do any technique on me if I attacked you. You would be unable to do so even without my resorting to techniques from outside the art. If you chose to attempt to apply Aikido techniques on a high level practitioner from another style you would be taken apart within seconds.

I think people need to be aware that many, if not most, teachers do not teach the hardest aspects of the art to anyone but their own studenst. Most techers have a kind of seminar repetoire which they do as they travel around. It is often a mistake to judge what their Aikido is really like without training at their own dojos and seeing what they impart to their own SENIOR students directly. This dichotomy between teaching what is taught to the public and what is taught to your own deshi was something that O-sensei himself followed. He quite consciously did not show the people who were not his own direct deshi the same things he showed his direct students. So if there seems to be a disagreement about some crucial aspect of the art then one needs to go to the source. What is it that the direct students of the Founder teach to their own direct students? In no caes that I am aware of does any major teacher of Aikido (with one possible acception) whether from the pre-war period or the post war period maintain that the use of atemi in Aikido is un-aiki, not an essential part of their practice.

That said, the technical aspects of the study of atemi waza is often not very precise. As John Riggs has, I am sure, been finding through his research, much of what was known about atemi waza within Aikido is not very technical and is not taught systematically. Saotome Sensei utiliizes atemi in his Aikido all the time. But only rarely, and then usually directly to the individual student, not the whole class does he show the details of the precise vital point to be struck, the proper angle to strike it, etc. It is something he feels that instructors should know but isn't necessarily important for the general student body to be concerned about.

So Aikido students who wish to develop this side of their practice often need to do research on their own in oredr to devlop thier knowledge in his area.

mike lee
03-01-2003, 12:31 PM
The issue here was STRIKING vital points of the human body, which can cause serious damage and death — not the atemi that we use in aikido. The fact that some "experts" are unable to distinguish the difference only alarms me all the more.

I can and have executed a wide range of aikido techniques against trained attackers without using atemi. In street-fighting, atemi is usually a waste of time, because it interrupts the flow of ki. This is the way that I was originally trained in Ki Aikido and I have found it to be extremely effective.

I also prefer to use judo throws in street-fighting, which also involve absolutely no atemi, because, once again, atemi is usually a waste of time. Trapping and throwing is extremely effective, as has been proven time and again in UFC bouts.

Years ago, I learned how to strike vital points of the body when I studied Shaolin Kung Fu. I learned about the serious damage that such strikes can cause. That's why I decided to learn aikido — so I wouldn't have to resort to such means to defend myself.

The thought that some people want to incorporate such strikes with aikido turns my stomach.

George S. Ledyard
03-01-2003, 01:07 PM
The issue here was STRIKING vital points of the human body, which can cause serious damage and death — not the atemi that we use in aikido. The fact that some "experts" are unable to distinguish the difference only alarms me all the more.

I can and have executed a wide range of aikido techniques against trained attackers without using atemi. In street-fighting, atemi is usually a waste of time, because it interrupts the flow of ki. This is the way that I was originally trained in Ki Aikido and I have found it to be extremely effective.

I also prefer to use judo throws in street-fighting, which also involve absolutely no atemi, because, once again, atemi is usually a waste of time. Trapping and throwing is extremely effective, as has been proven time and again in UFC bouts.

Years ago, I learned how to strike vital points of the body when I studied Shaolin Kung Fu. I learned about the serious damage that such strikes can cause. That's why I decided to learn aikido — so I wouldn't have to resort to such means to defend myself.

The thought that some people want to incorporate such strikes with aikido turns my stomach.
Atemi when not directed at vital points is ineffectice as the UFC and your street fighting experince has pointed out.

What do you think the atemi we use in Aikido really are? As I said in my previous post most of what is taught in the way of atemi is generic. It represents the pointing out of a suki, an opening to the partner, it is not necessarily the actual atemi. It is a line of attack to grab your partner's attention, to redirect his energy. But this only works because the partner knows that what this strike really represents is something that MUST be dealt with because it represents his potential destruction. If it didn't he could igore it, take the hit, and keep attacking which is what you see in the UFC. When strikes are not directed at the vital points which could potentially kill or injure there is no need to shift ones attention to them. This gives the great advantage to those who are merely tough and strong over those that are skilled. Hence the Tank Abbots of the world.

While laudable in intention, your ideas about the ethics of the art are simplistic to the extreme. Non-violence is much more complicated than the idea that no injury should occur. There are times in which a death is necessary to protect the innocent and restore harmony, in which an injury IS non-violent because it allowed you to spare the life of the attacker. If I can knock a knife wielding attacker out I have spared his life. Because of the current ideas about Use of Force one of the Chief causes of injury to police officers is from UNDER-application of force not over application. They are so concerend with not injuring the subject that they under react, the situation escalates, weapons get accessed and then the next thing you know one or the other is dead. The non-violent option is sometimes stepping in and ending the confrontation with one blow, or breaking a limb to acheive a disarm which then allows you to de-escalate.

As for your seeming assertion that using a judo technique is somehow less dangerous than an atemi... Not on an untrained subject on the pavement. In fact throwing an opponent to the ground is far more likely to inflict injury if they don't know how to fall then a jusdicious use of atemi. Most people couldn't do a stike that would even approach the power of the impact of a full sized adult hitting the pavement.

As for your stomach turning... you don't know me, have no knowledge of the kind of person I am, yet you make me out to be some kind of monster, an aiki-Saddam simply because I am telling you that you are incorrect in your assertions about atemi. Well, in the absence of any likilihood that we will meet in person, I would suggest you try Tums for your stomach problem.

mike lee
03-01-2003, 01:22 PM
While laudable in intention, your ideas about the ethics of the art are simplistic to the extreme.

No — they are simplistic to the practical and useful, not to mention proven.

I assure you this. Teach vital strikes in aikido and in a very short period of time, an aikidoist in America will be going to prison, quite possibly for a very long time. Good luck!

Les Kelso
03-01-2003, 01:34 PM
One seems to sense mr lee has some hidden agenda against Dr Riggs Sensei.

His attacks (ad-hominum) expose his inability to deal with the issue at hand of atemi/non atemi.

I (as others noted) are curious why a person of such SUPPOSED stature would stoop in such an unkind and rude manner to mud slinging and unfounded accusations and threats.

However rather than to address mr lee directly and incur some of his tirade, I resort to a saying given by a close friend and fellow aikidoka.

"When you argue with a fool, then there are two fools arguing."

Les Kelso

Ta Ch'u Academy

aikidoc
03-01-2003, 02:16 PM
Generally, I do not like to get into verbal "discussions" like this but Mr. Lee's statements have frequently become extreme.

Here is an example from Mr. Lee.

"I assure you this. Teach vital strikes in aikido and in a very short period of time, an aikidoist in America will be going to prison, quite possibly for a very long time. Good luck!"

Since this whole deal is about my article submission, this statement is absurd. Again, criticism without knowledge of the content. My article specifically states that practicing knock outs (vasovagal faints) is dangerous with potential lethal side effects and is contrary to the philosophy of aikido.

I have practiced atemi waza to various body areas since 1995 and other than accidently causing a vasovagal faint in my early study of one student with a light tap, I haven't killed anyone. My friend Gary Chase has been doing it for a lot longer and all of his students are alive and well. George Dillman who practices kyosho jitsu and knocks people out regularly to my knowledge has not killed anyone either.

Back to lack of knowledge of what I wrote. I specifically stated in the submission that the bone crushing aspect of atemi (which is the kill risk) is not necessary nor needed. Pain compliance can be inflicted without it.

Here is another one:

"The issue here was STRIKING vital points of the human body, which can cause serious damage and death — not the atemi that we use in aikido. The fact that some "experts" are unable to distinguish the difference only alarms me all the more."

I never claimed to be an expert only a student. Also, I do not advocate the dim mak concept of striking to shut down organ systems and cause failure and death. Without knowledge of what I specifially wrote you attack me and frequently misquote even statements I make in this thread: For example, I never claimed aikido came from India and have no idea where you came up with that statement.

No one practicing aikido advocates regularly "killing" our attackers with viscious atemi to vital points. Vital point attacks do not have to be brutally forceful to result in an effective outcome. In fact, many pressure points are on the arm and can lead to control of the uke with a press or squeeze of the pressure point without causing tissue damage or organ damage. Generally, it does cause pain. To assume that pain will not result from a martial encounter is ignorance of the implications of the seriousness of a full on encounter with destructive intent.

Don_Modesto
03-01-2003, 03:27 PM
Striking vital areas of someones body is "non-aiki," especially when aikido offers so many better alternatives.

DJM: "Aiki" means to take the attacker off ballance immediately upon egagenment. Ergo...

This, as most aikidoists know, is what makes the art morally and ethically superior to most other martial arts, specifically striking arts.

DJM: See "Dueling with Osensei" by Ellis Amdur (http://www.ellisamdur.com/DuelingwithOsensei.htm) for examples of the moral and ethical models as they practice in Japan (the one driving his middle knuckle into Terry Dobson's Adam's Apple, e.g.) Other advanced practitioners have weighed in online on this and concluded that as practiced, many of aikido's ideals are better understood as pretenses.

Most students know this, and anyone who is instructing the art should know this.

DJM: As a given?! Ergo, disagreeing with you, they're wrong? How convenient.

O-Sensei clearly stated that when someone intends to strike, this intent defies the laws of the universe.

DJM: I'm embarrassed to comment without a better grasp (literacy, e.g.) of Japanese, but I believe he said "attack", not "strike." the difference is intention.

Atemi in aikido is used only as a distraction or to check one's position. Any physical contact with atemi is usually only accidental.

DJM: Nonsense. Pertinents citations have been offered above.

Col.Clink
03-01-2003, 07:04 PM
Non-violence is much more complicated than the idea that no injury should occur. There are times in which a death is necessary to protect the innocent and restore harmony, in which an injury IS non-violent because it allowed you to spare the life of the attacker. If I can knock a knife wielding attacker out I have spared his life. Because of the current ideas about Use of Force one of the Chief causes of injury to police officers is from UNDER-application of force not over application. They are so concerend with not injuring the subject that they under react, the situation escalates, weapons get accessed and then the next thing you know one or the other is dead. The non-violent option is sometimes stepping in and ending the confrontation with one blow, or breaking a limb to acheive a disarm which then allows you to de-escalate.
This thread has gone off topic a litle, which I am most pleased about!!

Some great views expressed here, I can't help myself but to reply.

I firmly agree with the statement above by Ledyard Sensei. I have expressed these same views to students at my dojo. I have no where near the experience of the Sensei that have been posting on this thread so the following may be just inexperience talking.



To avoid serious injury to either party, is something I tell my students often. A broken finger is better than a broken arm, broken arm better than a broken leg, broken leg better than a broken back, and a broken back better than taking their life, although some may disagree on that particular viewpoint.

It all is dependant on the attacker and the seriousness of the attack. Does the attacker have a knife or a plastic spoon? You get the drift.

Regarding atemi, my view is anything goes, so long as you know what your atemi is going to do. To take the mind, to off balance, to distract, to end the conflict, if it can be done to restore the harmony present before the conflict then fine.

I have not had alot of training in atemi, but find myself 'finding' the places to use it.

One student who likes to resist when he thinks something will not work against him, finds it does when he cheerfully realises he has openings for atemi:)

I can see Mike Lee's points on the subject and that he feels strongly, and to a degree I also agree with some of his views.

Perhaps a seperate thread on the uses of atemi, different types and the effects. Advantages and disadvatages in application and experiences of those that have applied them in reality?? (if posted before my apologies)

Kelly, I think it's best to try out a dojo near you if possible, practice is the best way to learn anything in Aikido.

Hmmm...blend and redirect, hope it's working!! :D

The essence of restoring harmony is to:

a) end conflict

b) end conflict

my shillings worth (about 8c too much!!):eek:

cheers

Rob

John Boswell
03-06-2003, 10:27 AM
Hey Rob,

After this thread deviated off course to the magnitude that it did, I started a seperate thread on ATEMI and all aspects of it. It is here in the Tecnique Forum of AikiWeb.

I look forward to anyone and everyone posting their views on Atemi there so we can get it all on the table and see how one person's view varies from others and get a more condensed view of it all.

Very exciting stuff here.

On a more personal note, and this is directed at no one person, I would like to see my thread on Atemi stay as objective as possible. My intent was not to point fingers and bring about any "Right" or "Wrong" views on Atemi. My intent was to allow ALL views on Atemi to come out so others can analyze and break it down for themselves. Obviously, given the passion and questions from this subject... there is much to be learned by everyone on the subject of Atemi.

acot
03-06-2003, 01:05 PM
I find this thread very entertaining. As if the future of Aikido was on the line. Aikiweb is to support the Aikido and Martial Arts community as a whole by keeping people informed. This message board is like a soap opera never ending points of view and points of view. In the quest of high ethical philsophy can only be a personal one and its not for everyone. It's impossible to look in to the hearts of men (and women) and judge their intent with the knowledge of destruction.

Ryan

:cool:

:circle: :square: :triangle:

Col.Clink
03-06-2003, 05:29 PM
Hey Rob,

After this thread deviated off course to the magnitude that it did, I started a seperate thread on ATEMI and all aspects of it. It is here in the Tecnique Forum of AikiWeb.

I look forward to anyone and everyone posting their views on Atemi there so we can get it all on the table and see how one person's view varies from others and get a more condensed view of it all.
Hi John,

I realised this after I posted, but it was too late to edit. I'll check out the thread a little later and try to define my thoughts a little more.

cheers

Rob

Kelly Allen
03-13-2003, 06:14 AM
The idea of an Aikidoka going to prison because he or she learned pressure point atemi is ludicrus. There are lots of very devistating MAs out there that use and train in many dibilitating and sometimes fatal technics and their not going to jail. Mike must think we're a real uncivilized lot.

mike lee
03-13-2003, 06:51 AM
Mike must think we're a real uncivilized lot.

No Kelly. But you are behind the times — this thread has been dead for weeks. Where've you been? Shovelling snow or learning how to spell?

John Boswell
03-13-2003, 11:05 AM
Josephine Lewis

Username: Jo Lewis

02-21-2003 07:28 PM

Location: England

Local Time: 05:02 PM

Registered: Feb 2003

Posts: 1
Mike,

I hate to break it to ya, but this thread is 20 DAYS old. Not weeks. But that's okay... keep it up! I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit!! :D

Kelly Allen
03-14-2003, 07:10 AM
No Kelly. But you are behind the times — this thread has been dead for weeks. Where've you been? Shovelling snow or learning how to spell?
Lets see here. From the 6th which was the last post I saw, to the 13th which was the post you are refering to, is far from weeks Mike. I may be a poor speller, but you're a terrible mathimatician.

And a thread is only finished when people lose intrest in the topic. Your insults serve only to show people on this Forum what kind of abrasive personality you have, and ultimatly they will never take you seriously, and begin to ignore you. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go shovel some snow.