Folding Hakama

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[Kung Fu Liane]

Hi,

we had a guest teacher at the last training session, and he told me that i should be folding his hakama at the end of training. however, i am by no means the senior student in the class. if i were to learn how, and start folding my teacher's hakama at the end of class, would i be stepping on the toes of my seniors?

also, i keep being asked to take 'warm-ups' at the start of class if the teacher is late for some reason. again, am i stepping on toes?

thanx,

-Liane

[Bogeyman]

If your sensei asks you to do these things then there must be a reason for it. If toes are being stepped on then I would say it is between your sensei and your seniors. As far as folding hakama I have a different opinion from some. I don't understand why we we can't fold our own hakama. I know that I am not that good or that much better than others thatI can't fold my own hakama. It is a chance to relax and meditate at the end of class. I do train with people from other dojos that disagree though.

E

[Arianah]

I don't understand why we we can't fold our own hakama. I know that I am not that good or that much better than others thatI can't fold my own hakama. It is a chance to relax and meditate at the end of class.
I don't think it has to be a statement of superiority to have someone else fold your hakama. My instructor gave his hakama to one of my sempai to learn to fold it. He explained that it teaches patience, and ultimately helps to improve the mindset that you need for aikido, since you can't force a hakama to fold. You have to instead, as my instructor says, "let it fold itself." Since my sempai has gone back to college, I have taken up the task of folding Sensei's hakama. I also fold one of my sempai's hakama, since he has to shower before he makes the long trek home, so not having to take the time to fold it is very convenient for him. As for me, I enjoy folding them, and though I have only graded once, and am, obviously, not senior, my sempai don't seem to mind. They may be grateful for all I know, since I don't think a single one of them doesn't hate to wrestle with those skirts. :)

[Bud]

Hi,

we had a guest teacher at the last training session, and he told me that i should be folding his hakama at the end of training. however, i am by no means the senior student in the class. if i were to learn how, and start folding my teacher's hakama at the end of class, would i be stepping on the toes of my seniors?

also, i keep being asked to take 'warm-ups' at the start of class if the teacher is late for some reason. again, am i stepping on toes?

thanx,

-Liane
First, I don't see why the guest instructor had to tell you outright to fold his hakama. I'm aware of the sempai-kohai relationship but to be told to do so sounds a little condescending. I have yet to hear of a visiting Japanese sensei actually ask that from me or from someone else but I see his being done by their own kohai (usually their uke in the seminar).

I for one would not tell someone else to fold my hakama nor would I presume that everyone knows about the sempai-kohai relationship and its practices. I would offer to fold a sensei's or sempai's hakama but to be told to do so by either of them is new to me.

As for warm-ups, I don't see why you'd be stepping on anyone's toes by doing them a favor and warming up the class. We have that happen in my dojo and the highest ranking student usually takes it upon himself or herself to start the class. It's no big deal.

[Chris Li]

First, I don't see why the guest instructor had to tell you outright to fold his hakama. I'm aware of the sempai-kohai relationship but to be told to do so sounds a little condescending. I have yet to hear of a visiting Japanese sensei actually ask that from me or from someone else but I see his being done by their own kohai (usually their uke in the seminar).
I train at three different dojo in Japan, and nobody folds anybody else's hakama, not even the instructor's hakama.

Best,

Chris

[batemanb]

When I was in Japan, One of the sempai in the dojo that I trained in would always fold the dojo cho's hakama, whether he taught or not, someone would always fold Kaicho's hakama too. If one of the other club sensei taught, I don't recall anyone folding their hakama's though. This custom was followed in all of our 4 dojo's. There were one or two sempai that always volunteered to do this, if they were absent, it was noticed and one of the others would always step in.

We regularly had visit's from "erai sensei", such as a monthly class with Matsuda Sensei. Someone would always try to fold their hakama too (I have sen some refuse the offer occasionally). I have also trained regularly in a couple of other dojo's there, visiting "erai sensei" would always have someone offer to fold their hakama, wghether it was their own deshi travelling with them or a memeber of the club being visited.

I don't think that folding someone's hakama is a rule, although it did seem a formality for certain people. I have come to view this as part of Aikido shugyo, consequently, since I have returned to the UK, I have taken to folding my Sensei's hakama at the end of class too.

Interestingly, one of my "kohai" has noticed this, he came over and sat quietly watching me fold Sensei's hakama last week, after, he asked if he could fold mine. I must admit to feeling a little embarrassed by that, so I made a polite excuse and put him off until another time :-).

[Ta Kung]

Folding your senseis/sempais hakama? Dear Lord, why? I never heard of this before. To me, it sounds very strange. What else do you do, help with his dishes, cut his nails or comb his hair? :eek: Really, this is absurd.

"Sensei! Sensei! May I please fold your hakama?"

"I belive it's Justins turn today..."

"Darn it! Then at least let me shampoo your hair."

:)

/Patrik

[JJF]

In kendo I was told that it was custom that the lowest graded person would offer to pack sensei's equipment - especially if it was a visiting sensei. We never did it though - and I allways wondered, why the person with the least chance to know what was expected, and how to do it, was supposed to take care of the task. In Aikido I have never met anyone that expressed that he or she expected someone else to fold his/her hakama. I can't help wondering what my sensei would say, if I offered to fold it for him though... "WHAT!! fold my hakama ? no way - get your greasy little hands of my things and go practice shikko...." :D or maybe not....

[Edward]

Some of the guys who posted above have a long way to go in terms of learning humility.

I don't see anything downgrading in offering or in being asked to fold a hakama. You should consider it as a service given to you not vice versa.

I have noticed that teachers and visiting instructors would give their hakama to be folded by one of the students that they particularly appreciate, or to whom they have some affection or esteem.

One should feel proud and honored to be chosen to do such a task, or any other task by an instructor. Unfortunately in our Western culture, the first thought would be: "Hey, does he think I'm his servant or what?"

I wouldn't want to train at a dojo with such a spirit, or lack of spirit I should say.

[Ta Kung]

Hi Edward! I respect your thoughts. But frankly, I don't agree at all. I really don't see the reason WHY a student should fold the senseis hakama? It's obiously not that common. Sure, if they for some reason want to, go ahead. But having the sensei tell/ask you to do it? Nope. However, if it was the custom at the dojo I was training at, I'd do it.

I don't see any bigger honor in folding the senseis hakama, than I see when the wife tells me it's my turn to do the dishes again. :)

With respect,

Patrik

[Edward]

Hello Patrik,

I see that you are from Sweden and you Scandinavians are known to be very egalitarian :)

Aikido is a Japanese martial art and cannot be separated from its context. I myself would feel less inclined to fold the hakama of a Western instructor than that of a Japanese. And a Western instructor would feel less inclined to give his hakama to be folded by a student than a Japanese instructor. However, the folding of the hakama has more meaning in it than doing a service to the instructor, because he's perfectly able to do it by himself in less than a minute. I think it is a symbolic gesture, and it would be difficult to understand if you did not spend a few years in Asia.

Now my (Japanese) instructor never asks his students to fold his hakama, but one of the students always volunteers. I myself have never volunteered (and would never do, due to my Western education), but I would happily do it if asked to.

Cheers,

Edward

[MikeE]

I have never asked my students to fold my hakama, they ask me. I have never asked my students to clean the dojo, they saw me doing it a couple of times...and then they took the initiative and started cleaning up on their own. When we have a visiting sensei, I try to fold their hakama out of respect. Even when I am at a seminar somewhere else, someone usually asks to fold my hakama. And in turn I will ask to fold someone elses.



Anyways it's something I do. It's part of the training I received. I don't find it any bit out of the ordinary.

In our style we start wearing hakama at nikyu, so...once someone is yonkyu or sankyu it may behoove them to be able to fold one.

Patrik, are you afraid to let someone else touch your precious skirt ;)

[happysod]

Strange thread, especially as the original query wasn't "to fold or not to fold", but whether they'd upset someone else by doing this (?).

My twopenneth is if you don't mind folding someone's hakoma do it - although going off the "yeah I'd sweat so much it would be wringing" threads concerning hakomas in the past, I certainly wouldn't join in.

Personally, I prefer to deal with my own sweaty attire and wouldn't consider handing this over to anyone else either a service or an honour - good trick if I could manage it though (does it work with gis and zorris? have I been missing out on an untapped dojo resource?)

[Choku Tsuki]

If 'folding someone else's hakama' is akin to a holy sacrament or a ticket to some else's ego trip I'd want no part of it. we had a guest teacher at the last training session, and he told me that i should be folding his hakama at the end of training,Worse if it is someone's delusory attempt at being more japanese than the Japanese. I'd refuse in this case unless my teacher, who is responsible for teaching me etiquette, informed me before class this is something I should volunteer to do.

--Chuck

[John Boswell]

Some of the guys who posted above have a long way to go in terms of learning humility.
Well, I know that I am humble! I remind people everyday what a wonderful and kind and humble person I am. ;)

Just kidding! But you do make a good point. Humility is a dying trait these days.

[JJF]

Hi Edward! I'm back from having the flu....
I have noticed that teachers and visiting instructors would give their hakama to be folded by one of the students that they particularly appreciate, or to whom they have some affection or esteem.I like that scenario much better than the one I painted where the student with the lowest grade should do the job. Much more of a gesture - a connection - than a chore. A question of words perhaps but important for the whole atmosphere and the interpersonal relations in the dojo.

I concider myself quite an egalitarian just like Patrik :D, but I still believe there is nothing wrong in expecting the students to make an effort for the dojo and be helpful to those who teach them, as long as it is done in harmony with the way the sensei thinks and the society in generel works around the dojo. It's quite okay to practice disciplin and humility as long as it dosen't become phony.

What I'm getting at is, that it shouldn't be necessary to tell people more than once, that the dojo needs to be cleaned now and then, that it is concidered bad form to arrive late (especially if you do not apologize once you get on the mat), that one shouldn't wear shoes on the mat, that food is to be kept OFF the mat, that talking is only appropriate in some situations etc. etc.

However these rules should never be rules just for the sake of rules, but acts of concidereation that one should have the disciplin to live up to in order to create the best possible learning situation for everybody.

Then again - I am not just an egalitarian - I'm also a bit of an idealist ;)

Just my thoughts :)

[Peter Goldsbury]

In my own dojo we have a rule: everyone is responsible for his/her own kit, so every yudansha folds up his/her own hakama. There are no exceptions, from the chief instructor downwards. Requests to fold hakama, except to learn how it is done, are firmly rebuffed.

Best regards,

[Kung Fu Liane]

Thanx to everyone who posted. I guess different schools have different ways :)

[Ta Kung]

I concider myself quite an egalitarian just like Patrik

Well, at least I help with the dojo cleaning quite often. I don't clean as often at home, though... :)

[SmilingNage]

It is an honor to be ask to fold a Sensei's hakama. It is a compliment given to you. It shows that the teacher has been paying attention to your practice and trusts you with the task of folding a hakama.

[Judd]

Although I have no idea how to yet, many of our higher ranked students offer to fold the night's instructor's hakama for them. I think it's just a respectful way to thank a teacher for their time and effort, and helps the senior students learn how to fold, so they can fold their own one day. I guess every school is different. :)

[MattRice]

Everyone at our dojo folds their own. Never heard of folding someone elses. In fact they get folded, hung on a hanger, thrown into a bag in a pile or draped over a locker door. Not very formal on our end.

[Col.Clink]

I must be one of the few:freaky:

I have always folded the hakama of Sensei at the end of class. This was the job of the lowest grade attending on the night. In the beginning you did not ask why, but after a while I became curious and did ask.Listed in no particular order:

1. Respect for ones Sensei.

2. Gives Sensei time to go and get changed and not worry about folding the hakama, again respect for giving his time.

3. There is a certain way of folding the hakama, each fold you give means a certain thing. I cannot remember these meanings exactly, I'll have to look it up, but the tie at the end is something like "through the universe and over the mountain"

4. Teaches you patience and in my case I'm a perfectionist, so it taught me alot about patience!

5. It doesn't have to be Sensei either, someone who has helped you out alot at class, a yudansha you look up to; a way of saying thanks now I'll do you a favour.

Personally, I think it is very respectful(and a little humbleness involved) to fold Senseis hakama and a great way to learn how is to practice on the yudansha.

You soon learn who takes care of their hakama and who doesn't. Some of the knots I've taken out of hakama's over the years!!!:eek:

I guess it's up to each individual though, seems to be alot of trust involved, I think.

Just my tuppence worth.

cheers

Rob

[rachmass]

we used to have a race to fold our sensei's hakama; it was an honor to do it.

[kensparrow]

I'm relatively new to Aikido, but I'm surprised at the number of negative responses. I would consider it an honor to provide that service to some one who has given me so much. I wonder how many of the "fold your own" crowd think their Sensei should take his own ukemi too!

[Alfonso]

I don't know ; it's a little awkward isn't it? I like the egalitarian attitude no one needs to. I did for over two years until I decided to give the opportunity for the newer people to take over. I certainly didn't get offended when someone else started. however I noticed it was the highest ranked yudansha in our group that did it most often now.

I know I would feel different if told to do so guest or no guest.

It's so nice to be able to practice in a place where etiquette is truly given and received freely instead of being imposed..

[Peter Goldsbury]

I'm relatively new to Aikido, but I'm surprised at the number of negative responses. I would consider it an honor to provide that service to some one who has given me so much. I wonder how many of the "fold your own" crowd think their Sensei should take his own ukemi too!
I prefer my own students to express their appreciation for what I am teaching them in other ways, by practising the techniques as well as they can, for example. My own instructor (a Japanese 7th dan holder) also folds his own hakama and has done so ever since I first met him, back in 1980. Thus it is a dojo custom here, with no implications whatever for respect or lack of respect.

That said, we treat our visiting 9th dan instructors differently. We keep a keikogi, obi and hakama especially for them, which is not only folded up after practise, it is washed or dry-cleaned and kept ready for the next visit.

Best regards,

[Edward]

Even though I do think folding the instructor's hakama is a great tradition and honor, I do find a bunch of Yudansha racing after the instructor to take his hakama almost by force a little pathetic, don't you think? The ones not able to get the hakama would run to the water tap next, so that he can be the first to offer the instructor a drink of water before the others. If this is done in all sincerity and honesty, it looks really great. But knowing the people doing this stuff, I have to ask myself about the motives.

As I said earlier, I would do it more than happily if asked to, but I cannot imagine myself joining the general hypocrisy and butt kissing trend by running after the teacher and trying to snatch his hakama before the others. I would rather be looked at as the one lacking in aikido spirit (true appellation) than being known as a butt kisser.

[SmilingNage]

Everyone at our dojo folds their own. Never heard of folding someone elses. In fact they get folded, hung on a hanger, thrown into a bag in a pile or draped over a locker door. Not very formal on our end.
I shutter at the thought of a hakama thrown into a bag or in a pile or draped over a door.

They should always be folded neatly. Hung only when they are wet and need to be air dried.

Thats very disrepectful to your training gear

[Chris Li]

I shutter at the thought of a hakama thrown into a bag or in a pile or draped over a door.

They should always be folded neatly. Hung only when they are wet and need to be air dried.

Thats very disrepectful to your training gear
I wonder how many Aikido folks fold their sweats neatly after running or lifting weights. My guess would be not many, disrespect to training gear notwithstanding.

The dogi and hakama that are worn during practice are essentially that - sweats. Clothing designed for physical workouts based upon everyday wear (albeit somewhat out of date).

Best,

Chris

[Edward]

The dogi and hakama that are worn during practice are essentially that - sweats. Clothing designed for physical workouts based upon everyday wear (albeit somewhat out of date).
Well, not quite that. Hakama for instance requires much more care than a pair of shorts, for instance. You cannot wash it after each practice, you have to keep it folded neatly in order to keep the pleats sharp, you cannot just throw it in the washing machine (especially if it's cotton). And it is more expensive than shorts as well, a good quality Japanese hakama costs starting from a 100$ minimum up to over 250$.

I have seen students and instructors alike just roll their hakama after practice, and I have no problem with that. But to be "thrown in a bag in a pile" for such an expensive and delicate garment, that would be disrespectful to your own purse, unless you're a rich person ;)

[Chris Li]

Well, not quite that. Hakama for instance requires much more care than a pair of shorts, for instance. You cannot wash it after each practice, you have to keep it folded neatly in order to keep the pleats sharp, you cannot just throw it in the washing machine (especially if it's cotton). And it is more expensive than shorts as well, a good quality Japanese hakama costs starting from a 100$ minimum up to over 250$.

I have seen students and instructors alike just roll their hakama after practice, and I have no problem with that. But to be "thrown in a bag in a pile" for such an expensive and delicate garment, that would be disrespectful to your own purse, unless you're a rich person ;)
I actually do throw it in the washing machine :). Price depends on what you get, but I have a pretty good Bujin hakama that goes right in the washer, and it cost less then my Bujin dogi, which goes - guess where?

Keeping the pleats sharp is good for a dress garment, but not so good for casual or workout wear. If you look at old pictures from Meiji era Japan you won't see too many sharp pleats on people wearing hakama for everyday wear - mostly just in photos of formal occassions.

In any case, I think that "treat it well because it's expensive" and "treat it well because it deserves respect as a tool of training in the way" are two really seperate arguments.

Best,

Chris

[Edward]

In any case, I think that "treat it well because it's expensive" and "treat it well because it deserves respect as a tool of training in the way" are two really seperate arguments.
Honestly, I don't feel any particular respect to a piece of garment, no matter what its role might be in the training in the way :)

I believe my opinion is shared by many a Japanese Shihan judging by the way they just roll their hakama and toss it in their bag, in case no one volunteered to fold it for them, that is.

I just believe that one should look neat and clean at the beginning of the training, and should look dirty and messed up at the end of it.

From what I understand, folding the hakama is a way of cooling down after the training while meditating about the meaning of the principles represented by the 7 folds. For me, it is just a way to keep the hakama tidy so that I don't have to wash it before next training. I don't give it any particular esoteric importance, nor do I think that a part of my soul goes into my bokken neither :)

Cheers,

Edward

[Ta Kung]

we used to have a race to fold our sensei's hakama; it was an honor to do it.

Oh my God...:(

Honor or no honor, if asked I'd do it. I'd be a bit suprised and confused, but ok, why not.

I would, however, NEVER ask this of my studens when I teach.

/Patrik

PS. Is it also an honor do do the dishes when your wife or husband asks you to? Some people here are trying to be more japanese than the Japanese people. A bit silly.

[Peter Goldsbury]

This is a very interesting thread in the 'sociology of Aikido'.

Here in Hiroshima (which I think is typical of Japan):

In the university, junior students not only fold the hakama of their seniors, but the keikogi also. When the keikogi or hakama tears (you know, sleeves come off, hakama seams split during hard training), then the female members of the club willingly make repairs for their potential marriage partners. We have a long tradition of club marriages here, by the way.

In the clubs outside the university, people treat their kit like Chris Li indicated. Hakama (and keikogi) are sometimes folded or stuffed into sports bags and, later, into washing machines.

No one has any clue about the significance of the pleats or folding method: it simply has a practical value. You do immediately after practice what you do not need to do later.

Actually, in one dojo in Holland, students folding my hakama after practice set up some human problems in the dojo. Whoever folded my hakama escaped from the chore of sweeping and mopping the dojo: a much less elegant but much more necessary task. So I now fold my own hakama, in a way that I have not yet revealed to my students.

Best regards,

[Edward]

In the university, junior students not only fold the hakama of their seniors, but the keikogi also. When the keikogi or hakama tears (you know, sleeves come off, hakama seams split during hard training), then the female members of the club willingly make repairs for their potential marriage partners. We have a long tradition of club marriages here, by the way.
Sounds great! I hope I can visit your dojo soon, Dr. Goldsbury :D

[MattRice]

I made no judgement on the actions of different people in the treatment of their hakama, just an observation. It's really their business, not mine. I usually fold mine correctly unless I'm late for work. Seriously, it's the training that matters to me not the clothes. If we gave up wearing gi and hakama and trained in sweats, I wouldn't care much, and I think no less of a person if she/he stuffs their hakama in the gym bag. It ain't a fashion show after all.

[Hanna B]

Patrik (Ta Kung), I do not know your line of aikido but at almost all seminars I have visited where Japanese teachers have taught, someone else has taken care of their hakama. The only exception being Minegishi sensei.

[Kung Fu Liane]

I eventually decided to volunteer to fold my teacher's hakama at the end of class. one of the senior students showed me how, only we hammed it up a bit :) still on friday we are finishing class early so that my teacher can publicly show me how to fold a hakama

i didn't realise folding hakama would be so difficult. i guess its good practise for when i get my own

[Jim ashby]

Our Sensei hangs his up, just like the rest of us.

Have fun

[Bud]

I always take time out to fold my hakama after pratice. By folding it correctly, I can store it with the folds and pleats intact and it'll look ok for the next class.

[Ta Kung]

Patrik (Ta Kung), I do not know your line of aikido but at almost all seminars I have visited where Japanese teachers have taught, someone else has taken care of their hakama. The only exception being Minegishi sensei.

Hi Hanna! I'm sorry to say that I haven't visited a seminar with a Japanese sensei, so I'm not familiar with this tradition...

I practise Iwama ryu, and I have attended a few seminars. None of the senseis asked anyone (nor did anyone ask to) fold his/her hakama. Right or wrong on my behalf, folding the senseis hakama is not a tradition I've ever heard of until I read this thread.

Is this tradition perhaps more common in certain "schools" of Aikido? I don't know any Iwama ryu club that have this tradition. Anyone else?

Regards,

Patrik

[Hanna B]

I'm in Aikikai... but none of the Western teachers I have practised for, have had their hakama folded by someone else. Nor do we adress them "sensei". I would guess both these things are more common in the states.

Does someone know if a student usually took care of Saito sensei's hakama after class? If not, I would be extremely surprised.

[rachmass]

I am also in Aikikai (USAF), and was previously in the Western Region, where folding the hakama of your sensei was the norm (as well as the hakama of any visiting sensei). I am now in the Eastern Region, and certainly still see folks folding the hakama of the more senior teachers, and sometimes the junior teachers as well. I don't consider it being more Japanese than the Japanese, just being a nice thing to do, a politeness. Why not? On the other hand, no one has ever "asked" me to fold their hakama, it has always been my initiative when I have done it, and has always been graciously accepted when offered.

just my tuppence...

[Hanna B]

In case you have not noticed, Jun has made this the poll of the week.

[ajbarron]

In our dojo a student always folds our sensei's hakama. It sometimes is a shodan at other times a 1st or 2nd Kyu. I think the question that one has to ask is what is the purpose of their study of aikido; this will allow you to answer whether this (hakama folding) is an appropriate practice. If your aim is to simply learn a method of self-defense then why should you bother. If your aim is to follow “ a way of life” as a budoka, then the folding of the hakama of your teacher is simply one part of your training in respect, in focus and in formality. If anyone would like to read a collection of interesting essays on subjects such as this I would recommend Moving toward stillness by Dave Lowery.

[Peter Goldsbury]

I think it is important not to rush to judgment about different dojo practices, which have grown up over the years and for which there is probably a good reason.

I have trained in dojos where a student always folds the hakama of the chief instructor or guest instructor, or where junior students fold the complete kit of keikoji, obi and hakama of the senior students, or where everyone folds his/her own keikogi and hakama.

I cannot draw any conclusions from this about the quality or ethos of training in these dojos.

Yours sincerely,

[SmilingNage]

The Aikido student handbook by O'Connor sensei :

On gi's,

"Your gi should always be kept clean and neat.Fold your gi after washing or practicing in itto avoid wrinkling. Never crumple or roll it up into a ball. This not the way your gi should be treated.Respect and care should be shown to all things and cultivating this attitude can start with your gi."

On hakamas,

"If you have the privilege of wearing a hakama you must learn to fold,wear, and care for it properly."

The handbook has some good guidelines for starting students and for all levels of practice. I believe one of sensei Koichi Tohei's books has a something on the care of gi as well.

Personally, I think folding ones clothing as well as your gi/hakama is part of the practice. It trains the mind to pay attention to detail. And paying attention is paramount during class. So fold you clothes and training gear and get into that attentive state of mind.

[bujin]

I'm young enough to fold hakama on my own.