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Chris Raywood
02-12-2003, 09:27 PM
There seems to be one question that appears on this site many times, but somehow (at least in my view) is never resolved. The question - “Is Aikido effective in a true self defense application? Many seem to have their opinion, but that’s not what I’m looking for.

I’m looking for Aikidoka that have actually used techniques in a true defense situation. With all respect to those who hold high ethical standards and theories to those who participate in “no holds barred” competitions, you are not the people I am looking to hear from.

I am looking to hear from people faced with an adversary with true intentions of doing great physical harm (without preset rules such as “no eye gouging”), caught off guard, filled up to their eyeballs in adrenaline, and most likely in an environment not conducive to what they were used to (such as a nice, open, airy, lighted dojo).

I should stress that I am entirely neutral on this topic, and make no statements or opinions. I have trained in the arts for almost twenty years, mostly in systems strongly influenced by Daito-Ryu. I am now training in Nihon Goshin Aikido.

Again, if you have had a true self defense situation where you have used an Aikido technique successfully, I would welcome the opportunity to hear from you describing the situation as well as the action and techniques used.

With best regards to all,

Chris Raywood

shihonage
02-12-2003, 10:05 PM
You can expect the following posts on this thread:

* 10 posts on how "Aikido helps me deal with stress of daily life and I don't need anything else"

* 10 posts of "I fall far more often than I get into fights, like that time I fell off the toilet and ..."

* 10 posts of "I suppose if I ever got into a fight, theoretically speaking, my skills may be sufficient to subdue an attacker, I think"

* 10 posts on how "You're missing the bigger picture"

* 10 posts on how "Not everyone goes to Aikido to learn to fight. Some of us pick up women there every day"

* 20 posts of people bickering with one another

* 2 posts on how "Aikido is ineffective"

* 1 post of a real confrontation.

ikkainogakusei
02-12-2003, 10:57 PM
Okay, I'll bite though it wasn't a spectacular fight. I've got a few of those from when I was young, but since aikido, I have had only one confrontation <cautiosly avoiding the inferrence that aikido helped me avoid confrontation>. ;)

I had a roommate at the university who was transferred to our apartment because she had a rage problem and her other 4 roommates said that if she didn't go, they'd gang up on her.

Of course the management company neglected to tell us that this was why she was being transferred.

One day she began to shout at me and I asked her to address things we could fix rather than casting aspersions (mistake) she came at me and I backed into my room. Having expensive equipment there I thought it prudent to not keep backing up until she had access to these things since she had already smashed a vase of mine.

Her flurry of blows ensued. I blocked and blended and calmly asked her to stop. She finally landed a grab to the center of my chest (shirt and bra), crouched down, and pulled with all her might. I dropped in center and thought " oh, you want to go that way, okay" I followed and she flew over backwards with a "oh shi..." look on her face. She then got up and went into her room.

I then went to the campus police and filed a report. She was given 2 days to move out by the police.

Oaky so -=this=- time it wasn't a Jet Li style fight with two commandos. There are so many ways to address why. (don't say because it was a girl-fight :mad: ) I have had my share of fights and exchange of broken bones and I believe that 'girls' can be fairly hard-core because they have to be and because they don't tend to believe in 'fighting fair'. I've seen ears lost and flesh bitten free.

Ready for the classic Aiki address? It is easier to avoid a fight than start one. I'll even give you the name of a non-aiki book by a hard-style martial artist. Fist, Stick, Knife, Gun by Geoffry Canada. It's a good read.

I have had people try to clock me for a mugging in the Tenderloin of San Francisco, or feign a rush attack. I've been confronted by drunks on Muni and been able to diffuse the situation. Before Aikido, I'dve thought the only option was to fight.

My questions are: What experience have you had that draws you to need to find this answer? What if there was no answer? What if you became the 'best' martial artist in the world, what would you do next?

No matter what style, there is always someone better.

Respectfully,

me
:ai:

shihonage
02-13-2003, 12:18 AM
All my fights with guys happened before I started Aikido.

Last one happened in 12th grade when some guy dragged me into corridor, and we "squared off".

I panicked, tackled him and started hitting him with arms and legs. Whatever I could hit, I hit.

That was stupid, but it worked. He didn't land a single punch, but I hit him in the mouth with the knee.

Since I've started Aikido, I've had an angry 5"7 girl (I'm 6"1, yeah, I know) try to punch me in the face with a hook (my left arm went forward, met with her arm, bent at the elbow, and blocked/redirected), chase after me while punching (suddenly turn around, ikkyo ura and kotegaeshi, I didnt apply power nor did I see the need for a pin), as well as something where you turn uke from yokomen attack and end up behind them with one arm sticking forward from under theirs - which softly projected her into furniture, however I didnt apply any power this time either; it was mostly hers; and no she didn't smash into anything).

I've also diffused several things that would've grown into fights otherwise.

When people of loose behavior (drunk/ high/homeless/with buddies) start getting out of hand, there's ways to behave which draw the line without making them think that their only choice is to fight.

Standing your ground without stepping on theirs. When it works, it works miracles.

paw
02-13-2003, 04:48 AM
Chris,

You may want to take some time and see how many people are "successful" in real life self-defense situations and see how many of those people had any training in any martial art.

Regards,

Paul

gasman
02-13-2003, 07:03 AM
I have been challenged or even attacked a few times, both in my spare time and in my doorman job.

When challenged I benefit greatly from aikido training and philosophy. I cant say that I have used so-and-so lock or pin in any particular situation, or brag about performing a perfect ikkyo on a 100kg speed-freak, but the coordination and feel for the opponent that aikido (and taiji) has taught me has proven invaluable. Even just placing a hand on a shoulder and make that special "link" with the other person is usually enough to defuse.

Going between two fighting guests, I always make a physical contact with both, establishing that link, letting them know where their center is... This is tricky however, if I make the move too agressive I might get in trouble myself. Sometimes I need to separate them forcefully though, usually by grabbing one from behind unexpectedly, TAKING HIS BALANCE and drag him off while turning (tenkan) placing myself in the middle.

When grabbed I usually release myself by going for a wrist lock. This makes the opponent release. It ususally ends right there and then. I had one drunk customer that started telling me where to stand and he proceeded to grab both my wrists and forcefully pull me over towards the wall. I was having none of it, made outside cirlces with my hands as if going for a nikkyo on each of his hands. When he released I did irimi to the outside of his right, guarding his right with my left and a very slow atemi towards his throat. The reason I made it slow was because I could see that he already was in surprise (and had understood that he had crossed the line), so I just made a point of the opening, nothing more. The customer then exused himself and left with no more hassle.

I would like to stress that I am in CONTINUOUS verbal contact with the troublesome guests and have found that I can talk myself out or into situations. The first option is of course the smartest.

When attacked I usually deflect the blow and do irimi to get behind. What I have noticed is that where I before would rely on punches and kicks for defense, I now instead move in close and go for a grab instead. Usually with atemi. This is IMHO much better, because I have the option NOT TO HARM.

So my application of aikido in real situations is more about attitude, psychology and conflict resolution. A perfect aiki move to me is when the whole fight is avoided completely.

I have trained various systems, but am currently training aikido and will stick with that for a long while.

bob_stra
02-13-2003, 07:48 AM
Seen these Chris?

http://www.aikidofaq.com/stories/real_life.html

http://www.aikidofaq.com/stories/real_life2.html

http://www.aikidofaq.com/stories/not_working.html

John Boswell
02-13-2003, 12:44 PM
You are ALL missing the bigger picture: I go to class to pick up women all the time!!

:D

JUST KIDDING !!

/duck

/hide

/runs away

Greg Jennings
02-13-2003, 01:02 PM
Got into a tussle at a gas station. I was grabbed katadori and punched in the face.

Fortunately, I both moved enough so that it didn't land squarely and I have a hard head.

I applied a desperate half-nikyo, half rokyo/hiji osae to the guy's grabbing hand, dislocating his elbow and throwing him to his two knees and off-side hand.

I broke two of his ribs with three kicks while he was down.

I also spent a year in "anger management" to make the assault and battery charge go away.

I would have been far better off to have just let him beat the snot out of me.

Be careful what you ask for,

Judd
02-13-2003, 01:03 PM
I hadn't read that before. Great stories! I love happy endings ;)

John Boswell
02-13-2003, 01:07 PM
I would have been far better off to have just let him beat the snot out of me.
Hold on just a second: How do you figure this? Granted, you really let the guy have it. But how does a years worth of anger mgt. counseling justify letting the guy just beating the crap out of you?

There's an Aiki ending that was possible to your story that I think would have been minus the AMT as well as not taking a beating. IMO

Greg Jennings
02-13-2003, 01:19 PM
Hold on just a second: How do you figure this? Granted, you really let the guy have it. But how does a years worth of anger mgt. counseling justify letting the guy just beating the crap out of you?
I would have been better off from the standpoints of financial impact, hassle and grief.

I was a bouncer when I was a lot younger. I used to scrap a lot. I know how to take a shot. I would have traded the guy the dislocated elbow and broken ribs. Had it all before and recovered in a month or so. The other was much longer and much more stressing.
There's an Aiki ending that was possible to your story that I think would have been minus the AMT as well as not taking a beating. IMO
Well, no duh! In 20-20 hindsight, I can think of about 1,000.

I'd only been training about four years at the time. I'd had a really, really, really bad day. I was attacked from behind after making a sarcastic comment. Bubba had a friend that was advancing on me. Etc. Etc.

I'd appreciate you not arm-chair quarterbacking my experience in public.

I put it out there for the folks to realize that there is a lot more to real "self defense" than cranking someone's forearm.

Sincerely,

shihonage
02-13-2003, 02:33 PM
I also spent a year in "anger management" to make the assault and battery charge go away.
http://www.geocities.com/mayhem_manager/sarm.txt

faramos
02-13-2003, 02:53 PM
On two seperate occassions I've had to use aikido for self-defense in confrontations, both of which I am more than thankful nothing seriously damaging occurred to either myself or the other person. In telling you this it would be good to note that prior to aikido I used to have a very severe temper. So severe in fact that once, while playing a game of water polo, I grabbed someones hand in such a way that I had no idea what would happen if I moved. but I forced them to move. Unfortunately, the person moved incorrectly and broke their hand and wrist because of my hold. I later learn this hold to be a very defunked kotegaishi. Back to the other incidence though:

When I first started aikido I lived near my home dojo and would walk to and from in my gi. One evening on my way home someone walking towards me and then when seeing me pulled a U-turn walking next to me. He then turned and say "Hey, give me your money." I then replied "What?! Look at me, I don't have any money" and smiled at the guy. I guess him not having any sort of threatening weapon made it tough, but he kind of realized I had my gi on and began to walk directly around me. As he did I just stayed centered and watched him walk away. I rushed to a nearby phone, called the police, and he was arrested. Apparently he had been shaking down people that were scared of him in size. Nothing more or less, just that he was a really big guy (around 6'5, 250 lbs).

A second time I was coming back from a dinner party and while walking in normal strides someone ran up behind me and grabbed my right arm very tightly. So much so I couldn't keep walking. Same type of feeling I got when someone wants to apply tough ushiro. Well, basically I just stopped walking, took a step to the side, and turned my hips. I got a look at the person fall flat on their butt, and noted what they looked like. They just kinda sat there without moving which seemed funny at the time. I then caught a bus that was coming by and got near the local police station. The crime was reported and I'm still here today.

In both cases things could have turned out poorly if I would have reverted back to what I thought necessary. Meaning kicking the living daylights out of them. But instead, I understood that the benefits of being centered and not looking to confront someone. Today I still ask myself if I should have done anything different, and everytime I tell myself, it doesn't really matter because nothing horrible happened.

That's my story.

Greg Jennings
02-13-2003, 03:36 PM
http://www.geocities.com/mayhem_manager/sarm.txt
That's the nice way to do jujinage. Well, it would be a little nicer if nage kept his hands open. That ensures that uke gets free to breakfall at the end.

The mean way is to have the near arm straight/palm up. Nage gets to dislocate uke's elbow with his own arm. How ironic!

Best Regards,

shihonage
02-13-2003, 04:22 PM
That's the nice way to do jujinage. Well, it would be a little nicer if nage kept his hands open. That ensures that uke gets free to breakfall at the end.

The mean way is to have the near arm straight/palm up. Nage gets to dislocate uke's elbow with his own arm. How ironic!

Best Regards,
If you haven't noticed, the uke's right arm is broken.

ikkainogakusei
02-13-2003, 05:46 PM
If you haven't noticed, the uke's right arm is broken.
Looks to me like the dislocation is the appropriate diagnosis. That warped twist is right at the elbow. It is possible to have a dislocation so bad that all of the supporting ligaments are torn and the joint moves so freely that it looks like a break.

FWIW I'd rather have a broken bone than no ligemental attachment. Bones often heal easier than ligaments.:D

Thalib
02-13-2003, 05:55 PM
Damage to the joints never heals. My right knee dislocated and had a torn ligament. Although I can still walk and do a bit of running, it's not the same, I'm basically cippled in a way. I get uncomfortable around the right knee when there's sudden pressure change in the weather.

Greg Jennings
02-13-2003, 06:48 PM
If you haven't noticed, the uke's right arm is broken.
Wow. It's so radically dislocated that I didn't notice that the palm was up rather than down.

Sheesh. I wonder how they did that effect?

Best Regards,

jk
02-13-2003, 07:56 PM
I also spent a year in "anger management" to make the assault and battery charge go away.
Wow. So there were criminal charges involved. Did some sort of civil action get piled on top of that? Considering how Americans love to litigate...

Regards,

Greg Jennings
02-13-2003, 08:19 PM
Wow. So there were criminal charges involved. Did some sort of civil action get piled on top of that?
There were no actual criminal proceedings. But there would have been had it not been headed off up front.

No civil charges either. The other guy and his friend actually came to my defense in the hearings.

Best Regards,

Edward
02-14-2003, 12:34 AM
Sheesh. I wonder how they did that effect?
I do hope it's an effect. Or is it not?

pointy
02-14-2003, 03:03 AM
i was at the top of the stairs coming out of a subway station late at night (brooklyn, ny). i usually make a 180 turn at the top to head back towards my house.

while stepping up on to the last stair i had a funny feeling. because i was going that way, and to keep some ma-ai, i kept turning so that the gate was between me and the flight of stairs to my left. while i did this, i heard a foot stomp clumsily onto the stair as i felt someone tug on my knapsack. it felt exactly like an ushiro attack (the way if uke is kind of charging, a wide step to the back diagonal can take their balance right there).

near the end of my turn i had my fist cocked in sort of a subtle way, just in case...but something told me not to do anything. i didnt have a single concrete thought thru the whole thing until i saw someone stumble up that last stair out of the corner of my eye. "Lucy!" it ended up being someone i went to college with. hehee

it was all blended just right, so that she was chasing my bag as she tried to grab it. i said - "why didnt you just say something instead of grabbing me, i almost knocked your butt right back down the stairs." she laughed and we walked together for a bit.

i dont know if it was aikido tho - i would have let one fly without that little voice in my head telling me it was a friendly person and not an attacker. however i seriously doubt i would have let them fall down all those stairs :)

Dennis Hooker
02-14-2003, 06:21 AM
Much depends on the individual’s abilities and attitude. Aikido like any endeavor is highly dependent upon the individual. I was quite active in karate and judo for a time and the same question could be ask of those students as well. I have seen individuals very creative and functional in a closed environment such as competition fall apart in un structured environment. It is quite common that the tough guy is not the most effective in real combat. So of us train and teach in an effective martial manner while others support a the non martial stance. The individuals and their abilities to function under duress are more critical at times than the ability to fight in a tournament. I think the biggest reason this question comes up is that many Aikidoka have a low level of confidence in their training and abilities and this is often supported and encouraged by students of other martial arts. After all it is a martial art and various camps want to maintain an upper hand in every way. So I would say that the answerer to the principle question is dependent upon the individual. All are not equal in Aikido no matter how had some folks try to make you believe it.

DGLinden
02-14-2003, 06:40 AM
I agreee with Mr. Hooker in every way. However in answer to the very original question asked - the answer is yes.

Unfortunately I have been in that ugly situation and after being bounced off of brick walls and concrete pillars I managed to remember that I was a (at the time) nidan and sensei. And believe it or not, it was a kokunage that broke the thing open (the last tecnhique I ever figured would work on the street) but in all truth it was two solid left hooks that ended it. I was a young man then and did things in a young man's way.

Now I am old and would do things differently, and perhaps I wouldn't have to suffer through the guilt and humiliation I felt afterward. You see, once I 'came to my senses' it was like playing with a child and it was only anger that made me feel that I had to finish it. Great power brings great responsibility.

Again to Mr. Hookers comments, it depends on the individual and his training.

Andrew Wilson
02-14-2003, 08:37 AM
am I the only one who thinks the whole idea of this post is silly?

I dont think ANY martial style was created to do anything other then defend a person. I mean hell, its not like we are out there baking cookies.

Its a matter of application of those skills at the time, and frankly, I am finding people who want to know if "this is street effective" are just flat out scared of their own ability. Aikido, and NO OTHER MARTIAL ART is some magical system that will make you super street fighter. YOU have to apply the things you learn to a street situation.

thats my two cents on this whole crum.

I train in aikido, I trust not only in it, but in myself. That is enough proof for me. hearing stories of people gettin hurt/or hurting others is lame. I get to see that often enough.

faramos
02-14-2003, 09:57 AM
Well, I can't really dispute your position, Andrew, be it somewhat conflicting with several of the comments. Yet to an extent there are several valid points to be made here concerning how people view and practice Aikido. To be honest I feel I need to be blunt with others as to how it has benefited me mentally and phsyically. Its reassuring to know that other people have used Aikido in highly tense situations. As one of my sensei's often points out: "We train for the worst case senario because we are never sure what it may be. And if it is physical danger, then we understand the consequences and responsibilities we have to the person that wants to harm us and ourselves."

Sure, there are posts about injury and harm that we may not agree with, but as we all come to realize on and off the mat, responsilibity for our actions lies within ourselves. Sure, no assault or conflict is ever the same, but given the right amount of information about other bad situations- as well as the responses- we can only hope to improve, our understanding of what a worst case senario can be. That in itself is reason enough to take all points into consideration.

Chris Raywood
02-14-2003, 03:36 PM
This thread seems to be going off on a tangent that I hoped would not happen, but apparently is. I apologize for apparently not making myself clear.

My purpose in introducing this thread was to hopefully address the question posed in the beginning paragraph. I have been reviewing this site for several weeks, and seem to run into constant opinions and theories as to the street effectiveness of Aikido. "Aikido is effective", "No its not", "Yes it is", "No its not, Etc. etc, etc. On and on and on.

I think what finally got to me was a post by a person who determined that aikido was not street effective based on his review of several Ultimate Fighting Championship video tapes. I will admit the UFC is about as close as it gets, but there are still rules. There are no rules on the street. Maybe the guy is right, maybe the guy is wrong.

I wondered, Who is this man?, Has he ever got into the octagon with an Aikidoka? Has he ever got into the octagon at all? Has he been in multiple street fights so he can make this determination?

I have great respect for the vast majority of responents on this web site. They are educated and offer views that I highly regard.

I am however, getting very weary of a few self proclaimed "experts" that seems to know what techniques (and arts) will work and what will not. I tend to believe that if asked these "experts" would probably admit to their lack of actual combat experience that would qualify them to make such opinions and comments.

These "experts" are not restricted to this site. In particular, I tend to see many in publications such as Black Belt magazine. There they are (usually in the editorial column) finger pointing, proclaiming that their Kung Fu (or whatever)is better than this guy's Goju Ryu (or whatever) in a real street application. The thing that gets to me is that they never offer any "true" experience to back their claims.

So I though it might be useful to start a thread where Aikidoka might testify to actual experience. That way when I run into Mr. Videotape, I might direct him to testimony by Aikidoka that have used their techniqes succesfully in the "real" arena of the street.

I hope this clears the air.

With best regards,

Chris Raywood

PS I know that someone out there is going to wonder about me. To set the record straight, and as I mentioned before, I have been involved in jujutsu for just under twenty years, mostly Daito-Ryu influenced. I currently train in Nihon Goshin Aikido. I am fifty one years old, and like the vast majority out there I haven't been involved in fights since my grammar, high school and early collge days. Probably because I consume far less alcohol, and don't have to fight over girls anymore (my wonderful wife took care of that).

Andrew Wilson
02-14-2003, 03:43 PM
I don't need it to be validated. I don't need to hear, so and so people I have never met used it to protect themselves. There are people on the street who have protected themselves just fine with out aikido, so the point is mute. I would be just as inclined to care about their stories, which is not really much at all. Frankly, stories dont help ME when it is MY life on the line. Training your awareness and changing your mindset, thats a big part of it.

I am sorry for being so forward, but I hear this stuff all the time. I have come to a point where I dont even see styles anymore. I see techniques and tools to express principals and strategy. And no matter how you justify your training, being for health or for because it makes you feel good mentally, you are still talking about the same thing. A gun is a tool, it was designed to kill. There are MANY guns, and with use, killing is ALL that they do. I dont care if you collect them, shoot targets, hunt, or carry for protection. its still just a tool. One that only YOU can harness the potential as you see.

you would think that martial systems that have been working for years upon years, that has gone from wars to self defense, and back would be enough proof to people that its effective. People lived their entire LIVES on these things.

so do I.

"there are many tools, but only one weapon" - A. Clark Sensei

faramos
02-14-2003, 03:54 PM
I accept that opinion. A tool is a tool only so far as it can be used the way a person sees it fit. If the tool a person uses is to be viewed only as technique, then so be it. Best in your training.

Jorge Garcia
02-14-2003, 05:12 PM
My son was walking home last year from work on major street here in Houston. A man approached him and began asking him for money. He told him several times that he didn't have any. He turned to walk away and suddenly the guy came up behind him, grabbed both his shoulders and pulled him backwards. It tore the shirt right off his back (he brought it home in two pieces). He said that as he was falling backwards, that he began instinctively turn, as we do in the dojo to face the roll. When he did, his eye caught the sight of the attackers hand, palm down still holding part of his shirt. He grabbed it as a sankyo, took a step to regain his balance and threw him backward in the sankyo as hard as he could. The guy hit the ground screaming in pain. My son walked off and left the scene quickly with onlookers at the bus stop shaking their heads at what they had just seen. He said that three blocks away, the guy was still screaming and had not gotten up from the ground.

A few days later, taking my son to work, we saw the man walking down the same street. He was well built and about 4 inches taller than my son. He has a full cast covering the palm of his hand running to the shoulder. It looked to me like he had several serious breaks. He saw where my son worked though and a week later someone drove by the store and took 3 shots at him (driveby). Thankfully, they all missed but one came within 5 inches of his head. I made him quit that day. Today, he works as a federal security officer in another city. He has been in aikido since he was 10 years old.

ikkainogakusei
02-14-2003, 05:50 PM
I don't need it to be validated. I don't need to hear, so and so people I have never met used it to protect themselves. There are people on the street who have protected themselves just fine with out aikido, so the point is mute. <snip>Frankly, stories dont help ME when it is MY life on the line. Training your awareness and changing your mindset, thats a big part of it.
Respectfully, I think the point of this thread is not to say that if aikido is effective then it has the right to exist, but if it isn't then it should not be considered a martial art.

I also don't think that the start of this thread was mean't to condemn aikido for all time if the progenitor (of the thread) decides that the stories were not good enough evidence.

I think Mr. Raywood was simply wondering who has had that experience and could they please share it.

If you do not like such discussions or don't need to hear them(please excuse my bluntness) why get involved?

No disrespect intended Mr. Wilson. I have seen several threads that do not interest me, and I simply do not read those threads. I am not interested in the idea of the proverbial Mighty Mouse vs. Superman discussion or any manifestations thereof, but I just don't read them.

Respectfully,

me:ai:

Andrew Wilson
02-14-2003, 10:46 PM
I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question.

If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.

ikkainogakusei
02-15-2003, 12:09 AM
I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question.

If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.
I understand you have the right to do so, and truly I am not trying to preclude your rights. You do have the right to express your thoughts.

I guess what I'm trying to impart is that though you don't agree with the need to validate; why express frustration and caps_lock words in the direction of people who have the above conversation?

You are probably correct that anecdotal evidence is fallaciously applied here, but if I were interested in understanding what the experience of using the single-grip or double grip backhand in tennis was like, I might ask people. Now it is my understanding that Mr. Raywood hasn't had so much experience with altercations since he became aikidoka, so it doesn't hurt to ask.

Personally I find that I too read in to his request.I asked "What experience have you had that draws you to need to find this answer? What if there was no answer? What if you became the 'best' martial artist in the world, what would you do next?"

Some of that is because I am genuinely interested in other's answers to those questions, but to be frank, I projected on him the personality quirk of the practicioner who is always trying to prove their style is the right one through rhetoric. That isn't necessarily so. That was my preconceived notion because I have a connection to that question.

To his credit Mr. Raywood sent me a very well thought-out email which adressed my questions and he addressed that same frustration about the proverbial 'expert', and I think he reiterated in a post above in this thread.

So no I didn't take offense to your post, in fact I was trying to fashion mine so that it wasn't offensive as well. Maybe I came on too strong?

Respectfully,

me:ai: :) :ai:

PS Does this count as part of those 20 posts in the 'bickering' category Aleksey? I try not to be a bickerer.

Andrew Wilson
02-15-2003, 02:36 AM
I guess what I'm trying to impart is that though you don't agree with the need to validate; why express frustration and caps_lock words in the direction of people who have the above conversation?
we could go around and around about this. why for instance did you feel the need to express your opinion on my opinion and whatnot.

I was CAPS_LOCKING words because I thought they were important parts of the sentence. I didn't mean to get anyones goat, nor did I mean it in to start a bickering conversation.

-shrug-

Kelly Allen
02-15-2003, 05:44 AM
I used to work in a bar as a bouncer bar tender. One of our local shit disturbers started a fight with another patron in the bar. I pulled him off the other patron and shoved him away. Since it was only the three of us in the bar at the time I asked both to leave. The one left willingly since his experience at the bar was ruined anyway. The local shit disturber however said he wasn't going anywhere. I calmly told him that I wasn't going to serve him any more so I didn't see the point in him staying. He threatened then to trash the place and me. I kept my calm and demeenor and told him that that would only accomplish 2 things 1 you would be place in jail for assault, win or lose, and vandalisim. 2 you wouldn't ever be allowed to come back to this bar again. Since he was aready barred from the other neighboring town bars, and already had a reputation with the police he then backed down and left the bar.

I wasn't studying Aikido at that time, but at that moment I was an Aikido master. I felt great that I was able to diffuse the situation where both of us walked away unscathed. He was back in the bar the next evening. I served him his usual and he was very respectful of the other people in the bar. In fact he was even friendly to me.:)

Kelly Allen
02-15-2003, 06:07 AM
I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question.

If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.
Sure you have a right to post. But what your posting is not what the thread was looking for. the thread originator has a right to hear the stories he's looking for. If you don't have a story then you have the right to not post it. I like these type of stories, and I have a right to be able to read the stories without haveing to sift through all these unrelated tangents. I could ignor you but then I would miss it when you had something related to the thread to say.

Andrew Wilson
02-15-2003, 07:38 AM
Sure you have a right to post ... when you had something related to the thread to say.
I HAD something related to the thread to say. If the worth of aikido is related to how many stories you hear or tell about how you kicked some "local shits" teeth in at a bar, the so be it.

The point was simply that aikido's worth goes beyond your capacity to weld it. A gun is not and can not be dangerous unless you put it in someones hand. like I said, I couldnt think of a single martial art that isn't designed for the purpose of protection/self defense/war. I am the weapon, tools are how I keep myself alive. That includes firearms, knives, taser guns, batons, pepper spray...etc...

I have stated my views. As for my merits and stories, you dont even want to know the stuff I see.

mike lee
02-15-2003, 07:58 AM
I’m looking for Aikidoka that have actually used techniques in a true defense situation.
Your question puts most aikidoists in a double-bind. (But, being trained in DR explains why you wouldn't understand that.)

Aikidoists (as well as most other martial artists) are generally taught that if they have to use actual techniques in a self-defense situation, they've already failed in their training. Therefore, if one were to admit to having used aikido waza in a self-defense situation, they would be admitting to a failure.

There is an article on a USAF Web site that describes how a NY City police officer uses aikido in his work on a regular basis. His examples are successes, not failures, because apprehending suspects is his job. For him, the use of aikido allows him to use the minimum amount of force to get the job done.

mike lee
02-15-2003, 08:11 AM
I wasn't studying Aikido at that time, but at that moment I was an Aikido master.
Ha, ha, ha, LOL, snort, ha.

Right. I went swimming one day and for a brief moment was Neptune, god of the sea.

Dennis Hooker
02-15-2003, 08:17 AM
Andrew Wilson wrote:

I post, because I have a right to. I can express my thoughts just as much as anyone else. I dont agree with the need to validate, nor do I think that stories could even begin to broach upon the question. If I am offending you by posting my thoughts... I appologize.

Sir, you post because your are allowed that privilege to post, as the rest of us. It is not our right. As for the effectiveness of Aikido in a real situation. Yes I have used it and was very successfully myself in resent history in downing two muggers. A student who was a guard of a work group (chain gang) in Florida was in the process of being decapitated by a big man with a swing blade and used the only training he had (Aikido) to throw and disarm the bad guy. On the other hand a 6’5” biker who worked as a bouncer in a bar in Pensacola and was in all rights a very bad dude died when a little lady stuck a knife in his kidney while he tried to keep her husband for beating her to death. Now knowing all this what the hell difference does it make. Let me ask you does you jujitsu work in real combat? Have you used it in war? I know several of us Aikidoka that have relied at least in part on Aikido training to keep us alive in bad situations. You know what my fried? All this does not matter a hoot or help me in any way. It is what we are doing today with our life and the art we selected to help make it better that matters! I won’t get into any more hand to hand combat situation if I can help it. If the situation is dire enough for me to go that far then I will expertly use the legally obtained and licensed concealed weapon. I hope you take no offence at this post but this thread is moving through every Aikido list and mostly generated my people outside Aikido and mostly by those that have never been in a real life and death situation from what they say. From my late teens through my 60 years I have not been witness to, or part of any serious physical confrontation that has not lead to serious injury or death. Even if your, mine or their art works are you or they willing to cripple, maim or kill to remain safe. I know some that thought they were but could not do it even at the expense of their own safety.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

faramos
02-15-2003, 12:48 PM
If you please then, Mr. Wilson, I would like to know a story that you have been involved in. I think many people would. None of us at Aikiweb have the right to judge the merits of your case. We just want to know how you've handled a situation whether it be with or without Aikido techniques. Maybe we've done the same thing, in a similar situation, maybe we have not. In either case, I'd like to know more about your mat/non-mat experiences. :)

Dan Bruce
02-15-2003, 03:27 PM
I believe when it comes down to it in most situations when someone attacks a person the first thing most people do is freakout and forget thier training. You have to always be aware of your surroundings, and never underestimate anyone. Most people however will never have to use any martial arts ever in your entire life. Unless you work in law enforcement like me and have to deal with hostile people on a day to day basis. Yes Aikido is effective in street combat. Some of my fellow officers say a little too effective because most of the time they want to beat the snot out of the person. When most times I can actually be putting the handcuffs on before the perp has even finished moving from his first and only punch.

Andrew Wilson
02-15-2003, 04:12 PM
That has been my point the whole time! Aikido isn't a math equation where 2+2 always equals 4. It should, but it really depends on your ability to calculate that. I hadn't thought of the angle of "if you are capable of hurting someone" I was thinking more of the angle of "you might poo your pants". getting into a fight where someone is literraly going to beat the tar out of you if you mess up isnt something most people train for. So stories about people who have succeded or failed means little in the scheme of things.

This isn't to discount the stories of people who have gotten in fights, this isnt to say that I like fighting, this is simply saying that there isnt a cookie cut answer about aikido's effectiveness, or heck any martial arts effectiveness.

I am training for the police department out here. In my training we get to see pictures of victims, go on ride alongs and meet/see them in real life. On one particular instance I saw 4 officers attacked by one guy at two locations. He bloodied up one of them, and went to jail in far worse shape. Ever have to pick teeth up off the floor for evidence?

Aikido is just one tool to use to help myself go home at night, and to help others do the same. What I like about aikido more so then anyother style isnt so much that it is effective, but because the principals that are conved in the techniques. proper force for one comes to mind. I for one, dont want to smash peoples heads into the floor if I don't need to... but I could.

I guess I am not sure where the arguement and problem is in this conversation. I know aikido is great, or maybe better put great for me. If it works for you in fight situations fantastic. I am just saying that what works for someone else may not work for you. simply put you are the key in making aikido work.

faramos
02-15-2003, 07:05 PM
Yes,

I've had to do such work as an assistant to a law enforcement crime scene investigator. It is not pleasant and at the same time it seems almost surreal. I've also had to deal with the ID and forensics of persons in hospitals. I know there are times when I wanted to the victim to have a free shot at the criminal, and the police also. Personally, it has done quite a number to jade me every now and then. One persons works who've helped me though is Frank Doran sensei. Having previously spent over ten years doing other martial arts prior to Aikido, his views on conflict interactions most refreshing. In fact, friends in law enforcement and I have discussed how his ideas and methodologies have been a major help in learning about personal growth and resolute vantage points at places like crime scenes. Thank goodness for sensei and others like him.

Kelly Allen
02-15-2003, 11:35 PM
Ha, ha, ha, LOL, snort, ha.

Right. I went swimming one day and for a brief moment was Neptune, god of the sea.
:rolleyes: Swimming isn't the only time you think your a god.:D JK!

Chris Raywood
09-14-2003, 09:00 PM
[QUOTE="Chris Raywood"]This thread seems to be going off on a tangent that I hoped would not happen, but apparently is.