gaming

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[Paula Lydon]

~~Here's a left field one I've been looking at recently. My son got me playing a PC roleplay game and after the frustration of learning how to move/interact in virtual land I'm having a great time! It amazed me how much I'm mentally working on training concepts like off-line, positioning, entering or evasion, strategy, timing, etc...in a game! Like kids improving their reflexes on those fast PlayStation controllers.
~~I wouldn't recommend doing only this without physical practice but it seems to me that it's no different than visualzation for mental/neurological improvement. Anyone else notice this, or have I no life? Where's that Aikido-based roleplay game? :D

[MattRice]

Noticed it. I have the Lord of the Rings PC game. I can't even blame it on my son, cuz he's only 2. I've always been a Tolkien fan. Anyway, I was getting surrounded all the time and demolished (Tolkien fan, not much of a gamer;-). FINALLY I realized I had to enter and turn, keep all the attackers bunched up or in a line, keep moving and aim for the empty spots between attackers. I was doing randori in Middle Earth! Then I found myself yelling at Frodo "Breath! Keep your back straight...bend your knees damn you!!!"

Then I went to bed.

[ikkainogakusei]

Hello Paula

Please forgive any faux pas, this is the first time I have posted on AikiWeb. I am a kinesiology student and have studied motoric-learning concepts and thought I'd toss in my two cents.

"I wouldn't recommend doing only this without physical practice but it seems to me that it's no different than visualzation for mental/neurological improvement."

So modeling as a type of learning is yes, influential, but limited. Even better would be if you have done the exact moves modeled, then you can apply it more to your own motoric-'memory'. Studies have actually shown that by even thinking of a movement that one has performed, the brain will send impulses to the appropriate muscles in the appropriate order, just so subtle that your body doesn't noticably respond.

Yeah, an aiki-based game would be cool, but in place of that a few videos of aikido can help keep those thoughts in mind. However, I do agree that it doesn't hold a candle to actual practice.

:) :ai:

[bob_stra]

Please forgive any faux pas, this is the first time I have posted on AikiWeb. I am a kinesiology student
Hi and welcome ;-)

I was a kines student before switching over to chiro. Could you explain why you feel passive modeling (watch video) would be better than "active" modeling (play game)?

(yeah, i know those aren't the right terms ;-)

[one4k4]

Probably going to get called an uber geek here, but I frequently play the game "Everquest". The type of server I chose to play on is a player-versus-player server, or PVP as we like to call it.

I also notice myself thinking very aiki-like. Line those guys up, enter, turn, even run and hide. ;) (I'm a rogue, I get to hide..)

Even the concept of letting your enemy come to you and letting him go if he chooses..

I guess the dynamics are different in a pvp environment.

Just my $0.02, if it's worth that much. ;)

[ian]

I've always hoped that someone would bring out an aikido combat game on the PC so beginners could quickly learn what the names of each technique are called and understand how one technique can counter or lead to another!

[John Boswell]

Ian, now THAT would be a GREAT IDEA!

We need to find someone with 3-D graphic arts skill and get them to do that. Many things about Aikido would be set and routine with slight changes given angle of attack and whether there are weapons or not.

Hmmm... interesting. It would be GREAT just for teaching language and terminology, let alone seeing a technique in action. Granted, many people who are purests wouldn't like the idea... but the potential!!??? Hmm...

[shihonage]

Unreal Tournament (regular and 2003) both have a "mod"ification called "InstaGib".

Means, everyone has one weapon, which hits instantly.

One shot - one kill.

That's my favorite mode of play.

I've noticed that "feeling" the opposite team's attackers is crucial, if you can feel what they're thinking, you can prevent them from having clarity of mind by doing things they don't expect.

There's been some amazing moments where I had a team of 8 people running around in the room after me, shooting, and then through being at points where statistically they least expect me at every single moment, I dispatch them all and escape.

Attacking when expected to flee, or fleeing when expected to attack, getting behind people, all play a crucial element here.

[Veers]

Aleskey, you sound kind of like me on MechWarrior 4... No 1S1K modes, but I usually take a lighter Mech than everyone else, allowing me to be mobile enough to evade. In a team, I'm deadly as a support marksman (yes, missiles do take skill...they do in most games). Not much close range combat, but still, being able to guess your opponent's move and keeping them from guessing yours is a powerful ability.

Now to apply that to more than games!

[ikkainogakusei]

>Hi and welcome ;-)

Howdy Bob, thanks for the welcome

> I was a kines student before switching over > to chiro. Could you explain why you feel

> passive modeling (watch video) would be

> better than "active" modeling (play game)?

Well it's not so much the difference between video and game-play. Intuitively, I would assume that a videogame that executed specific aikido moves that the player has experienced with their own body might have a greater benefit than a video, but I personally have not seen a game that was really true to the aikido form. Though I would agree that Virtua Fighter 3 comes close (used to work at SEGA so I'm happy when they nail good modeling for moves in a game).

So the next best thing is a good video of aikido moves. Most motor-learning profs. would add that having that expert -=and=- having a video of yourself is even better when it comes to learning or honing a skill, that way you can have a sense from both internal and external perspective. The expert gives you that visualization of the 'sweet' move as it were.

Maybe your dojo has mirrors? Have you ever looked over and said 'hey, my hip is kinda out..' or some such?

Still this modeling thing whether passive or active is minor in comparison to the doing of an activity, especially when getting a kinesthetic sense of your partner through touch, and having several partners so that you can more easily modify your program for different people.

I haven't seen any in-depth data on transition between fine-motor response (using a game pad with fingers) and transfering to dynamic gross-motor movements (actually

-=doing=- the move) but that would be a very cool neuro-motor study. Hmm, maybe that'll be in the future.

Did this answer your question? I hope so, I'm at the end of a long day so I think I'm rambling. Write back and ask more if you think I'm crazy.

[bob_stra]

>>Howdy Bob, thanks for the welcome

No probs.

>Well it's not so much the difference between >video and game-play. Intuitively, I would >assume that a videogame that executed >specific aikido moves that the player has >experienced with their own body might have a >greater benefit than a video

What might be interesting is to video oneself then have that digitized / rotoscoped for playback in 3d studio max etc. I think that would be within the grasp of the average home user with a little savvy (vs the exact biomech models used in labs). It would be easy to set up a little game of sorts this way. Next, a method of feedback / forward would need to be introduced....I could have have fun with this ;-)

Re: fine motor : gross motor spill over....I think I have something on birds and frogs that discusses this. God only knows where it is ;-)

Good response. Thank you.

[ikkainogakusei]

>What might be interesting is to video >oneself then have that digitized / >rotoscoped for playback in 3d studio max >etc.

There's a program called Kinematic Analysis that I'm using. Beyond the Biomech study I'm doing on the expert vs novice Aiki-forward roll, I'll be recording myself as well.

>I think that would be within the grasp of >the average home user with a little savvy

>(vs the exact biomech models used in labs).

It's a lot easier than it used to be.

>It would be easy to set up a little game of >sorts this way. Next, a method of feedback / >forward would need to be introduced....I >could have have fun with this ;-)

Yeah, don't get me started. Y'know most of the martial arts fighting games are modeled using real martial artists. The programmers just get in there and exaggerate the moves with a little reprogramming.

Re: fine motor : gross motor spill over....I think I have something on birds and frogs that discusses this. God only knows where it is ;-)

I'd love to see a frog and a bird playing Soul Caliber or some such. :P

>Good response. Thank you.

Sure no problem. :)

:ai:

[bob_stra]

>There's a program called Kinematic Analysis >that I'm using. Beyond the Biomech study I'm >doing on the expert vs novice Aiki-forward >roll, I'll be recording myself as well.

Will you be doing this to test feedforward / learning?

eg:

(1) Blind fold jane and spin her around 3 times. See is she can ukemi to spot X

(2) Still blind folded, walk jane to spot x, then back to start. Repeat above. Effects on ukemi?

VS

Effects of doing above to "expert"

Etc etc (I'm sure you done this kinda lab before too).

Anyhow, if you do upload it someplace, let us know ;-)

>Yeah, don't get me started. Y'know most of >the martial arts fighting games are modeled >using real martial artists.

(preens)

Mhh..I know. I'm in one of them games ;-)

>I'd love to see a frog and a bird playing >Soul Caliber or some such.

LOL!!

[ikkainogakusei]

Okay so please pardon the quick response, I've got a paper to write and I'm kinda cheating myself outa time right now.

>Will you be doing this to test feedforward / learning?

eg:

(1) Blind fold jane and spin her around 3 times. See is she can ukemi to spot X

(2) Still blind folded, walk jane to spot x, then back to start. Repeat above. Effects on ukemi?

No, this is purely a biomechanical comparison between a novice and an expert. Intuitively, we already know much of the differences, but having the quantitative data will allow us to expand and do different experiments later.

I did however do an experiment where I had three subjects walk, walk blindfolded, and walk blindfolded and dizzy (after spinning). One of the cool things we saw was that the deviation from the line depended on which direction they spun (i.e. spin right= deviate right). Also we had one gal actually resort to 'high-guard' (a walking balance tactic used by newly walking babies) which reaffirmed that the Maturationists were wrong about our reflexes completely disappearing as we get older.

>Anyhow, if you do upload it someplace, let us know ;-)

Well It will partly be uploaded to the KinematicAnalysis website, but probably only the view of the expert. No worries though I'll be doing much more of this work on my own.

>Yeah, don't get me started. Y'know most of >the martial arts fighting games are modeled >using real martial artists.

(preens)

>Mhh..I know. I'm in one of them games ;-)

Okay either you're pulling my leg(wink?) or you've gotta tell me which game, and which art.

I've just gotten new data on GVS electrodes being placed on the mastoid process to induce vestibular dysfunction. The cool thing is that we can now titrate that level of (inner-ear) dizziness, which will allow a more controlled experiment. So maybe your idea might be in the future, but (unless the subject has previous vestibular dysfunction experience) I would imagine we can predict the outcome.

Anyway, I'm off to my paper. Cheers!:ai:

[bob_stra]

>No, this is purely a biomechanical comparison >between a novice and an expert. Intuitively, >we already know much of the differences, but >having the quantitative data will allow us to >expand and do different experiments later.

Cool - do share when your done. It could have some interesting implications for teaching ukemi.

>Okay either you're pulling my leg(wink?) or >you've gotta tell me which game, and which >art.

As Cartman says "No you guys, I'm seriously"

http://www.ugfighting.de.vu/

I think the guys are taking a while to compile all the mpegs I sent them.

As for arts - most judo and BJJ, but I did include two aikido moves in there (irimi nage and tenkan-ude garami).

They're still taking fighters to be modelled, if you're keen ;-)

The vestibular disfunction thing...we have a guy here doing something similar and combining it with Doppler Ultrasongography. But I can't for the life of me remember why ;-)

[ikkainogakusei]

>Cool - do share when your done. It could have some interesting implications for teaching ukemi.

Well, I don't know how much I -=can=- share. It has something to do with your need to own Kinematic Analysis in order to see some of the data. I can do the text format, but it won't seem so spectacular.

>Okay either you're pulling my leg(wink?) or >you've gotta tell me which game, and which >art.

>As Cartman says "No you guys, I'm seriously"

>I think the guys are taking a while to compile all the mpegs I sent them.

>As for arts - most judo and BJJ, but I did include two aikido moves in there (irimi nage and tenkan-ude garami).

>They're still taking fighters to be modelled, if you're keen ;-)

Yeah, well my feigned humility wouldn't allow it ; P

With regard to your game though; it looks as if they are bitmapping a skin on already generated sprites. What I'm talking about requires live-action digitized video with these little light balls on all the joints that record joint velocity/screen location. In order to be accurate they generally need at least two high-speed cameras.

I'm looking forward to seeing the game though.

>The vestibular disfunction thing...we have a guy here doing something similar and combining it with Doppler Ultrasongography. But I can't for the life of me remember why ;-)

Now would this doppler use have a lasting effect on the inner ear?

<very interested>

:ai:

[bob_stra]

Jane Tao wrote: -

>With regard to your game though; it looks as >if they are bitmapping a skin on already >generated sprites.

I'm not entirely sure of what they're doing anymore - they've been quiet for a while. I think the blurb was that they would use the data to model something in StudioMax, giving each character a faithful re-creation.

Re: The live action thing. I know what you mean. I have an old PC user magazine with two aikidoka hooked up with ping pong balls. I think it was a feature on rotoscoping in the mid 1990's. Not sure for which game it is tho.

>Now would this doppler use have a lasting >effect on the inner ear?

The more I think abt it, the more I wish I had paid attention in class that particular day ;)

[ikkainogakusei]

>With regard to your game though; it looks as >if they are bitmapping a skin on already >generated sprites.

I'm not entirely sure of what they're doing anymore - they've been quiet for a while. I think the blurb was that they would use the data to model something in StudioMax, giving each character a faithful re-creation.

Re: The live action thing. I know what you mean. I have an old PC user magazine with two aikidoka hooked up with ping pong balls. I think it was a feature on rotoscoping in the mid 1990's. Not sure for which game it is tho.
Yeah, I haven't used the ping-pong thingys yet. (that'll be in Quantitative analysis of movement) Right now we're supposed to have enough anatomical understanding that we can mark certain external landmarks and be able to identify exactly where the center of the joint is. Later those light balls will do the frame by frame work for us.

I've been to Electronic Arts and seen the $70,000 cameras they use. I think they are 120 frames/sec rather than the 30 fps that I get to use.

I tried to find a still shot of the non-pinpong subjects, but there weren't any that weren't fully pixelated.

Oh Well.

:ai: :) :ai:

[shihonage]

Jane and Bob, sitting in a tree...



so sorry ;)

[ikkainogakusei]

Jane and Bob, sitting in a tree...

so sorry ;)
Now you're getting silly. [read with mom 'lecture tone'] If Bob were a girl, or I were a boy, would you still be singing the third-graders anthem?

<hmmmm....note to self....Aleksey has girl boy friendship issues....very interesting>

:D oh, so sorry :D

[jk]

Hmmm...if Bob were a girl, or Jane was a boy...

That's not very unusual, especially for the Bay Area. What's that got to do with the third-graders' anthem? :D

Regards,

[xaj]

Why do we have a Aiki combat game? When the whole purpose of Aikido is to blend in and harmonize?

[bob_stra]

Jane and Bob, sitting in a tree...

so sorry ;)
(3rd grade ON)

Yeah...well...I know you are, but what am I?

I'm not listening

(fingers in ears)

LA LA LA LA LA

(3rd grade OFF)

;-)

Sorry...like to talk shop every now and again. Consider me suitable chastized

[bob_stra]

Why do we have a Aiki combat game? When the whole purpose of Aikido is to blend in and harmonize?
Because it's fun?

Because life isn't so black and white?

...and who's to say a smack upside the head can't be harmonizing in the right situation?

;-)

[ikkainogakusei]

Why do we have a Aiki combat game? When the whole purpose of Aikido is to blend in and harmonize?
Hi Justin,

I like your Aiki-icon. Y'know I guess you're right about questioning a game that might be called a combat or fighting game. Would calling it a Virtual Keiko game be better in order to frame the mindset?

:ai:

[ryujin]

:cool: There is a game for the sony playstation called Bushido Blade. One of the modes of playing has you choose a character, pick a school and train with different instructors to leearn techniques. The training take place with bokken. There is also some tandoku training as well. As you complete certain areas of training you become proficient in the different techniques. Then you can set up combinations to coinside with the buttons on the controler.

Having played this game a bit, I discovered using strategy learned in aikido helped alot. Like getting off line and waiting for the opponent to attakc first. Eventually your character is given a "live blade" and you go around the enviroment challenging other schools.

[shihonage]

Having played this game a bit, I discovered using strategy learned in aikido helped alot.

Like ... waiting for the opponent to attack first.
That is not an Aikido strategy.

[ryujin]

:) Like ... waiting for the opponent to attack first.QUOTE]
[QUOTE]That is not an Aikido strategy.
How can "waiting for your opponent to commit to an action" not be strategic? A strategy is nothing more than a plan of action intended to accomplish a specific goal. Waiting to see what the other person is going to do and making an intuitive action in response works. So does making a pre-emtive strike, as well as making a move the moment the attacker commits to an action. The goal is to finnish the conflict quickly and precisely and with as little harm as possible. How you reach that goal is all part of the stategy.

:circle:

[ikkainogakusei]

Hi Carl :)
:)

How can "waiting for your opponent to commit to an action" not be strategic?
I think the intended message was that it isn't unique to Aikido. There are many martial arts which employ this tactic.

:ai:

[akiy]

.. or perhaps Aleksey was saying that waiting for the opponent to attack isn't necessarily an aikido strategy in that the art of aikido doesn't necessitate waiting for an attack...

-- Jun

[jducusin]

On the subject of fighting games, and Aikido---if anyone here's familiar with the game Tekken, it has a character by the name of Nina Williams who apparently (according to one version's game manual I read) uses some Aikido, which I found quite surprising since...well...you never see any fighting game characters who do. :D

I've played it, and have so far recognized that one combo results in her doing what looks like Shihonage. But on the other hand (no pun intended), she also has a rather strange slapping move which always makes me think, what the heck?! Aikido Slap? :confused: And here I thought that was a special technique used by a Sensei to get his/her senior students smarten up...