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AKAKAK
02-06-2003, 09:49 PM
Hello All,

I'm very very new to aikido so please be patient with me. :)

After a few aikido training sessions I have come to wonder a few things. Many of the techniques require uke to hold the wrist without letting go. It seems that when I was practising that my natural reaction was to let go so to avoid a lock, pin, pain etc. Many times I was asked by nage to keep holding on. Sometimes I was able to, but sometimes my arm and wrist were twisted in a way that it was difficult to hold on so I let go or lose my grip unintentionally.

So my question is this: With regards to the techniques that require uke to "hold on", are these meant to be for practical use? Or are they purely theoretical in that they teach you fundamentals of movement? Or am I completely missing the point to these exercises? :freaky:

Thanks to all!

Cheers,
Andersen

DanD
02-06-2003, 11:33 PM
I think that's it's partly made for practice and partly to have the feeling of "committed attacker". One that will hold your wrist till you kokyunage him/her to the mat/ground.

When being an advanced Aikidoka - doing it quick will probably do the throw part so fast that the holding/twisting time period will be just a transition to a happy end (hopefully a "gentle" throw):)

Just my 2 cents.

Edward
02-07-2003, 12:35 AM
Beside what Dan mentioned, most of wrist grabs originate from old samurai days when the grab is supposed to stop you from drawing your sword. Obviously if uke lets go of nage's hand, he will be cut down. So even a painful lock is better than a sword slash.

On the learning level, keeping hold on the wrist will teach both uke and nage the principles of synchronization and harmony between the two energies involved, something which is much more diffcult to feel with punches or strikes.

Kelly Allen
02-07-2003, 02:06 AM
Hello All,

After a few aikido training sessions I have come to wonder a few things. Many of the techniques require uke to hold the wrist without letting go. It seems that when I was practising that my natural reaction was to let go so to avoid a lock, pin, pain etc. Many times I was asked by nage to keep holding on. Sometimes I was able to, but sometimes my arm and wrist were twisted in a way that it was difficult to hold on so I let go or lose my grip unintentionally.

So my question is this: With regards to the techniques that require uke to "hold on", are these meant to be for practical use? Or are they purely theoretical in that they teach you fundamentals of movement? Or am I completely missing the point to these exercises? :freaky:

Andersen
Good Question Anderson! The hanging on of the wrist I think is to help begginers stay connected as uke and nage. If you are having trouble hanging on try bending your elbow more and hold your head closer to nages shoulder. Try making your following steps larger than nages. If these suggestions don't seem to work it could possibly be that nage is trying to lead you too hard. ie he's trying to pull you along rather than blend with your energy and lead it, hence causing you to lose your grip. These blending exersises are extremely important to get the feeling of blending with an opponents energy because when done properly it takes very little effort to perform a technic.

JW
02-07-2003, 03:09 AM
Well, although most of us don't carry swords, I think the same idea is SUPPOSED to be at work in our aikido too -- namely, uke is not supposed to just hold on to hold on, rather he is supposed to have some motivation to hold on. The three things I think of in terms of realistic reasons to hold on:

1. The initial condition is that uke wants to grab the wrist--this is his choice of attack. In other words he initially has some reason to hold on. That means that until something changes, his goal would naturally remain the same. The only reason he would let go is if he looses his initial urge to grab, like you said, if an obvious lock is coming. So, throughout the blend and other early-to-middle stages of the technique, he has no reason to change his mind and let go.
2. In the course of the blend and technique, nage may put himself in the position to hit or push with the attacked hand. So, uke wants to hold on to stop from being slugged in the mouth.
3. Uke is supposed to be quickly brought off balance--so, often the best way to stop from going instantly to the floor is to keep a hold on the arm, trying to get back up to balance and continue the attack.

Three good reasons uke should hold on in practice, none of these reasons being stupid or unrealistic.

My personal problem is point number 1. During the interval of time when uke is grabbing just for the sake of the attack, I think nage should NEVER make it difficult to hold on. Otherwise, since the other 2 above points don't yet apply, why should uke struggle to grab or re-grab? I think it is always important for nage to make it EASY for uke to hold on--as much as making it DESIREABLE to hold on.
Both uke and nage have motivation (different motivations) to foster a connection. It is beneficial for nage to encourage uke to connect, not to discourage by making it difficult to grab.
--JW

bob_stra
02-07-2003, 03:44 AM
3. Uke is supposed to be quickly brought off balance--so, often the best way to stop from going instantly to the floor is to keep a hold on the arm, trying to get back up to balance and continue the attack.

--JW

Slightly O/T but...

That actually make a lot of sense. But it sort of indicates that rather than a large looping circle, a fairly short, sharpish one is called for (a sudden unbalancing)? Which would mean more work is done via the turning body rather than any sort of hand motion?

Is it then a case of "unbendible arm" while performing taisabaki?

(I thinking of the aiki taiso question I had a while back)

ian
02-07-2003, 05:59 AM
I'd pretty much follow Kelly & Jonathon in terms of using into as an exercise to connect flow and that it is only the start of the real aikido training.

Another point is that aikido is a self-defence; most people would be happy if someone lets go of your wrist - in fact when we do nikkyo I show beginners just to use it to break the grip initially since it is so simple and can allow someone to escape from a stiuation. I think sometimes people confuse self-defence with throwing someone onto the floor.

Ian

akiy
02-07-2003, 09:54 AM
I agree with what Jonathan said. In my experience in grabbing my teacher's wrist, my balance and connection through the hand in the grab is being manipulated in such a way that it's just not possible nor sensical to let go.

I've also trained with teachers who specify that a grab is a response by uke from nage's initiating movement (eg an atemi to the face).

-- Jun

Cyrijl
02-10-2003, 08:17 AM
This is not to begin a "Does aikido work" thread. I respect both the beliefs and the application of the art.

The question of holding on was why i quit aikido. It is ridiculous to practice such a highly artificial situation.

Jun Wrote "In my experience in grabbing my teacher's wrist, my balance and connection through the hand in the grab is being manipulated in such a way that it's just not possible nor sensical to let go."

In the short time i tried aikido, i did let go, only to be chastised. Sometimes in some situations aikido seems to work on the bigger idiot thoery. (1)I would never grab someones wrist in a fight (2) If i did i'd let go at the moment my grab no longer had force (3) At which point i would move away.

In the dojo i was expected to act like a moron and either continue to hold on, or just run into a technique. To me it seems better to train more realistically, sometimes you hold on, sometimes you don't. Then in those cases the 'victim' is forced to see what happens when the 'attacker' lets go.

In free sparring or scenario training, my wrist has never been grabbed.

akiy
02-10-2003, 09:54 AM
Hi Joseph,

I'll say that, sometimes as a training aid, there'll be times when uke should continue to hold on so that (1) nage can learn the technique if nage is a beginner and/or (2) uke can learn the ukemi if uke is a beginner.

To address your points that you made:

"(1)I would never grab someone's wrist in a fight." If a person punches at your face, one of the most common reactions is to try to grab the punch.

"(2) If I did i'd let go at the moment my grab no longer had force." As I wrote before, there are times when you aren't going to be able to let go structurally (eg your body is manipulated in such a way that it's not possible to let go for a short while) or it's not sensical (eg if you let go, nage's fist is going into your face). Besides, from what I've felt from people, all nage needs is about half a second's worth of a grab to effectively take them down.

"(3) At which point i would move away." Yup. So would I. If I could and if it were the safest option.

From what I can understand, many dojo emphasize grabs as it provides nage with more "time" and "connection" through the physical contact of the technique. It's much more difficult to affect uke's body during a strike than a grab. Thus, it seems as though many dojo stay with grabs in the beginning process in teaching the concepts and principles of aikido.

However, I will say that quite often, many dojo fall into this "uke keeps a hold" and stays with it into the more experienced stages of training. I'm always a bit amused and saddened when I see people, say, not understand that the point of ushiro ryotedori is not to just run around nage like a dog on a leash...

To close, I'll say that a wrist grab is a very effective attack in and of itself. I've had my face nearly planted into the ground during the tenkan exercise with my teacher -- with him being uke (ie with him grabbing my wrist).

-- Jun

PS: From my experience, every situation in a dojo is artificial, regardless of the art and/or teacher...

Cyrijl
02-10-2003, 10:29 AM
i just wrote this long cogent post, and then it dissappeared...

here is the short of it...

i would not try to grab someone's wrist if they were punching at me...to me it is not a good idea. That is probably where we differ. I've done alot of drills, sparring and less controlled training and never have i tried to grab a wrist off of a punch (even if it is not the attacking hand.)

You can train for realistic situations if you train right. In Krav we try to simulate realistic scenarios by having multiple attackers and highly aggressive attackers. Not all of the students perform well under such stress, but within a few months most people are able to defend themselves enough to get away.

Holding on to a wrist, for me, seems to be highly counter intuitive. In order for a self-defense system to work, it has to be rooted in the ability of the system to be ingrained into the students habits. If your body says "let go" it is probably doing so for good reason.

shihonage
02-10-2003, 12:54 PM
Holding on to a wrist, for me, seems to be highly counter intuitive. In order for a self-defense system to work, it has to be rooted in the ability of the system to be ingrained into the students habits. If your body says "let go" it is probably doing so for good reason.
http://www.senshido.com/sshp1_2.html

Look at the tiny pictures on the left.

What is Richard Dimitri, founder of one of the most reputable "real self-defense" systems, doing ?

He's holding a wrist.

Why ? Because this particular situation calls for it.

In fact, Aikido's "tenchinage" is an intepretation of the same principle.

Control the knife wrist, but attack the PERSON.

Alfonso
02-10-2003, 02:18 PM
i just

Holding on to a wrist, for me, seems to be highly counter intuitive. In order for a self-defense system to work, it has to be rooted in the ability of the system to be ingrained into the students habits. If your body says "let go" it is probably doing so for good reason.
I think you're confusing a number of issues.

1) What wrist grabbing drills may be used for

2) What is a wrist grab

3) What's the role of uke during practice other than freestyle

you may know or not know how to use a wrist grab as an attack. I didn't but I was taught. It wasn't the point of the practice though it eventually did factor in.

The point is that during cooperative training as uke you're also helping nage to discover explore and assimilate technique. It's no suprise that people who are in training are not perfect or that they demand you stick to the practice.

What's the point of proving that the other guy can't do "it" in a dojo situation? I mean what a waste of time!

If you want to play against Nage and try to overcome, win against them, then let the other person know what you want to do, and if they're game feel the results.

This isn't what most Aikidoka go to train for however, many because they're not confident in their abilities yet. However some people are, and will play with you.

Most teachers I've trained with have been able to handle my tentative pushing beyond what is standard, but the few times I've done it I felt privileged to be allowed to f@#$k around like that.

In that context I've HAD to grab a wrist to hold on to my balance (broken mid strike) , for example , and letting go has become a non option for my body. holding on becomes an imperative cause letting go will get me a mouthful of teeth or it means I'll just wipe out immediately.

And attacking with a wrist grab is the same on a technique that is applied correctly, if I could let go I would have.

Now on the other hand, If I did the same during a class , a demonstration , then the only way for Nage to react is to switch technique right? Of course if the instructor is trying to show a basic tenkan and you keep changing the attack you force them to either keep switching the response or letting you know you're just wasting everyone's time.

I don't know, cooperative training seems to be a unfathomable for some people.

jk
02-10-2003, 08:10 PM
Hi Andersen,

Give yourself more incentive to hold on...give nage a knuckle-duster. :)

Regards,

Ta Kung
02-11-2003, 12:28 AM
Hi Joseph!

I suppose you'd quit any martial art that practise using sandbags aswell? :) After all, there is a similarity; Sandbags (and wristgrabs!) are good for learning. It is to be regarded as a training tool. If you'd continued your Aikido training, you'd notised that practising all those "useless" wristgrabs, actually pays off in many ways. I'd bet most people here agree?

Anyway, I hope you find what you're looking for. Krav Maga is a great system!

Best wishes,

Patrik

PS. You're right, Uke is supposed to "act stupid". Atleast until Nage gets comfortable enough with the basics. Olympic divers started their first dives from groundlevel, I belive, not from 10m high... learn to crawl before you learn to walk, etc. You get my drift. :)

Tim Griffiths
02-11-2003, 06:31 AM
This is not to begin a "Does aikido work" thread. I respect both the beliefs and the application of the art.

The question of holding on was why i quit aikido. It is ridiculous to practice such a highly artificial situation.
Didn't take long to stop respecting "the application of the art", did it? :)

Firstly, grabs are the basic - at a higher level the grab almost never connects and can be similar to a punch. Secondly, I've had my wrist grabbed in a real fight (by the guy whose hair I had hold of at the time). Perhaps a "trained MAist" wouldn't grab. That's not all there is in aikido.

Thirdly, if you don't like arts that hold the wrist, you won't like jujitsu, judo or wing chun (I guess they're not effective), as well as karate, tai chi chuan, 'ninjitsu', or krav maga (which you mentioned you do now). I guess its TKD and kickboxing for you...
In the short time i tried aikido, i did let go, only to be chastised...

In the dojo i was expected to act like a moron and either continue to hold on, or just run into a technique.
Its a classic beginner's question, and all teachers should have a short answer and demonstration of why we hold on. The answer "because we do" isn't good enough. Its a shame that no-one explained it to you on the mat. Perhaps if you'd spend more than a "short time" trying aikido...
To me it seems better to train more realistically, sometimes you hold on, sometimes you don't. Then in those cases the 'victim' is forced to see what happens when the 'attacker' lets go.
It is better, and we do train like that. But its not helpful for the first couple of months of training. Don't forget, also, that holding the wrist after the initial contact is for the attacker's benefit - as protection, balance support or a chance to reverse the technique. It shouldn't bother the person doing the technique if their uke lets go when the technique is done at full speed.
In free sparring or scenario training, my wrist has never been grabbed.
Odd, because as I said, I've have it happen in real situations several times. Maybe its because *gasp* free sparring and scenario training isn't like real life either.

Train well,

Tim

Jim ashby
02-11-2003, 07:17 AM
Amen bro, amen.

Cyrijl
02-11-2003, 10:21 AM
what i was responding to was not when you grab someone's wristy and then do a move, but rather when one is told to hold onto someone else's wrists who is practising the move. It is ridiculous to train in a way that is so artificial. If you need to let go, let go.....

this is different than an offensive wrist grab, if you are attacking, then it is obvious you don't let go.

Andy
02-11-2003, 10:33 AM
Exactly how many hours of aikido classes did you take Joseph?

akiy
02-11-2003, 01:45 PM
I am taught the opposite, what Joe calls an "offensive wrist grab", where the emphasis is placed on taking tori's balance (and posture if you can get it) at first touch. This makes more sense to me martially, and requires me to give some energy to the technique. There are different schools of thought out there regarding grabbing, some that are incredibly effective.
Heh. I just realized that I just lead two classes (the ukemi class this past Saturday and today's noon class) working on taking your partner's balance at the first touch in katatedori -- as uke. We worked on "uke" (the person grabbing) throwing "nage" (the person being grabbed) into kaitennage or ikkyo. Interesting stuff.

-- Jun

akiy
02-11-2003, 01:46 PM
Oh, geez. I just realized I wiped out Jim Vance's great response to Joseph by hitting the "edit" button rather than the "quote" button. I tried to see if I had the original posting in my cache, but I didn't.

Sorry, Jim... My apologies.

-- Jun

Alan Drysdale
02-11-2003, 02:47 PM
"what i was responding to was not when you grab someone's wristy and then do a move, but rather when one is told to hold onto someone else's wrists who is practising the move. It is ridiculous to train in a way that is so artificial. If you need to let go, let go.....

"this is different than an offensive wrist grab, if you are attacking, then it is obvious you don't let go."

and that is when nage does a technique on the wrist.

Alan

Gopher Boy
02-11-2003, 05:19 PM
Hi Anderson (and all!)

The topic seems to have gotten a little lost in my view.

In my experience, having the attacker continue to hold the wrist is very important early on. The reason? Well, if he/she didn't then the technique would not be able to be completed. Simple as that. It would be exceptionally hard to learn aikido that way.

(as others have said, it is less important down the line, but for now...)

When the attacker lets go, there are only really two options for nage... atemi or disengage. If the option is chosen to dis-engage, one will have to hope that the attacker thinks better of his violence and leaves. Now - THAT'S what I call realistic!!! Seriously - the kind of people who start fights don't just walk away. If you choose to disengage, then a fight-proper will probably ensue.

And, seeing as Aikido is quite focussed on the idea of multiple attackers, you will be in a bad position. Get rid of an opponent quickly. So - you are left with the king-hit.

Not so pretty, but effective. In practice we are obviously not going to pummel into our partner. It is enough to know that if they let go, they are in a rather bad position.

So - why grab the wrist in the first place? That is of course, the entire point to aikido - they have lost the fight as soon as they attack. The only way to win the fight is to not start it in the first place.

Just to finish, it is sometimes difficult for beginners to accept aikido as it starts so slow. I recommend trying to pair up with a much more experienced person (Shodans are always good for fun :D ) and nicely ask then to perform the technique full speed. You have to be careful which technique so choose one you are comfortable with. Hopefully then you will be able to get a better appreciation of how quickly things can happen and how little chance the attacker has once he has initiated!

phill

mattholmes
02-11-2003, 06:19 PM
I agree with the point made by Phill (and others) in this forum. It's almost a narcissistic point of view to think that what you are learning at the beginning of a system is what you are expected to use.

I see many readily apparent parallels to other disciplines: Most of your education is not spent reading picture books nor building sandcastles (although I can't imagine what could be more important or education than building a sandcastle on the beach...). Instead, we start out doing these things so than we can "move on" to other more complex steps which we then build on even more.

My point being (and I apologize for neglecting the whole "wrist grabs" topic that this thread started from) is that I was always taught that one does not study aikido to become more skilled at throwing your opponent; that there was a higher, more moral lesson to learn. The whole point of learning the wrist grabs, as I understand it, is to learn to deal with more complex attacks, and (I'm told) learn beyond physical tai jutsu.

Which is not to say that those sandcastles will never come in handy. I know that I personally really appreciate the fact that I am well versed in the fine art of reading children's books. What a wonderful way to be able to get along with little people!

Thank you,

Matt

Kevin Wilbanks
02-11-2003, 06:20 PM
One thing that might help that I often see people getting lazy about is for nage to give uke a reason to grab the wrist. If you stand with your wrists low, close to your body, or out to the side, uke has no reason to grab them, and might as well strike or grab your head or torso. But, if you raise the arm up and put it between you and uke, they have to deal with it first if they want to get at your body (aside from low kicks). Hence, the wrist grab becomes an attempt at yonkyo, pulling the arm out of the way to gain access for a strike, or pulling nage into a punch or clinch, etc...

As a corollary, you often see nage expecting a face or gut strike with their hands blocking the target, which is equally nonsensical. The point is, in formal kata practice, the dynamics of why a particular attack is mounted should usually be clear, as in paired weapons practice.

As far as letting go or being unable to hold on, if a good nage is serious about subduing you and has his/her mind on you and not some particular technique, letting go should quickly earn you a strike to the face, throat, gut, limb and/or an abrupt irimi/kokyu. A disengaging uke at that range has eliminated any reason to continue with the grab-oriented response. The reason this doesn't happen in basic practice is because the purpose is to learn the mechanics/dynamics of specific complex techniques - zillions of 'what if's' are deliberately excluded. Yielding with the body in ukemi is about staying connected, safe, and probing for reversal opportunities. Most beginners who claim they can't hold on or doing so seems dumb look like immobile, unresponsive human punching bags to me.

Edward
02-11-2003, 10:18 PM
I think it all has been said, but let me add one more remark. Usually in aikido Nage executes the technique while uke is still holding for the obvious reasons of keeping the harmony and the connection between the 2 persons.

However, all aikido techniques against hand grabs have a variant in which nage eventually grabs uke's hand in order to throw him, not relying on uke to keep the hold, and roles are thus reversed. Uke in this case not only cannot let go, but also he cannot control his fall and will usually have to do a high-fall. The throw is also much more powerful.

At our dojo, we usually practice the first way because uke can choose the moment to let go and do a soft roll, while the second way leaves him no choice.

Erik Young
02-12-2003, 07:05 AM
I recently had some direct experince with this idea of effective/non-effective wrist grabs.

I've recently returned to training after a 10 year lay off (ok...I quit.... :)). Anyway, at my former dojo, I studied about 5 or 6 years...attained a rank of 3rd kyu (Iwama style). I was pretty good (although not near as good as I thought :) ).

Now, here I am starting all over again. I'm at a kokikai dojo and it's a whole new ball-game. I'm having to pay a lot of attention to details that escaped me whan I was younger (due to variosu reasons), but I'm finding that with every class I'm learning about 3 new things about familiar techniques...with each class.

Anway, we recently did a class fopcusing on various shionage techniques, particularly wrist grabs. One of the things that I was corrected for was my technique while doing katate dor shihongae irimi. This school is now using two versions...the old version (thjat I was doing) and a slightly different newer version.

In the old version, as nage enters and takes uke's balance, nage is supposed "look at his watch" (as my old sensie would do it). Basically putting the wirst hiorizontal in front of himself. The problem that was demonstrated to me by Sensei is that uke's hand gets turned over and uke has a very difficult time maintaining much of a grip. The new style goes put nage taking his wrist from the horizontal position and raising it up uinto a vertical position where nage can look at the palm of his own hand, nage then can reach around in front, take uke's wrist and finish the shihonage. In this case, uke can maintain a firmer grasp on the wrist, but nage is still able to take uke's balance and complete the technique.

Anyway, what I took away from this is that one has to be aware of things like uke's attack in order to execute proper technique. Sure, I can break uke's balance and make uke "let go", but I might be better off slightly adjusting my technique to uke's energy in order to maintain connection. This stirkes me as a rather advanced concept, not something easily perceived or executed by rank beginners (hell, look how long it took me to get it?). It's not that the training is artificial (ok, it is), but there is a simple logic behind it...if someone is pushed m passed thei rlimits too quickly...they'll never get it. It's about behavioral shaping...working htrough gradual approximations of the ideal until one reaches the ideal.

Anyway, that's my experience.. Happy training.

Peace,

Erik

jimvance
02-12-2003, 01:44 PM
Oh, geez. I just realized I wiped out Jim Vance's great response to Joseph by hitting the "edit" button rather than the "quote" button. I tried to see if I had the original posting in my cache, but I didn't.

Sorry, Jim... My apologies.No worries, they were just words. I have plenty more. :)

Jim

Chris Tan
02-12-2003, 10:05 PM
My instructor would always demonstrate the value of a katate-dori attack to us using Shihonage as an example. If the uke grabs the nage's wrist and nage doesn't move or move fast enough, the uke then can then continue with a shihonage attack.

I think it was Sugano sensei who said in one of our seminars that (excuse my paraphrasing) at the beginners level, nage lets uke initiate the attack (i.e. grab the wrist or do a shomenichi strike) before responding with a technique. At the intermediate level, as uke initiates the attack, nages responds accordingly at the same time. At the advanced level, nage initiates the attack and continues the technique when uke responds (with a grab or a block/strike).

At our dojo, we are always practicing letting the beginners grab our wrist in order to let them have a chance to practice. But for the more advanced students, we are always told to think of "leading" (through tenkan or other movement) rather than to think of throwing. Ukes never really get a chance to get a firm grasp on the nage's wrist.

bob_stra
02-13-2003, 08:35 AM
Re: wrist grabs.

They seem to happen all the time for me in MMA. Infact I specifically set the other guy so he has to "wrist grab".

Eg: We're punching, I move. we tie up. I grab his wrist. I let him wiggle out. He grabs my wrist.

OR

We're playing open palm strike, I put my palm on his face. He bats it away. I do it again, he grabs it.

OR

We punching. I annoy the other guy with stop hits / jab catch drill. He starts to do the same, eventually catching my fist.

I've not been able to do anything with these wrist grabs yet (my aikido is still too new), but I can see the opportunity.

One day.... <evil grin> someone gets to meet Mr Sankyo.

FWIW.

PeterPhilippson
02-13-2003, 06:15 PM
Hi Anderson (and all!)

The topic seems to have gotten a little lost in my view.

In my experience, having the attacker continue to hold the wrist is very important early on. The reason? Well, if he/she didn't then the technique would not be able to be completed. Simple as that. It would be exceptionally hard to learn aikido that way.

phill
You don't need a sword to punish an attacker who lets go: you just hit them!

One of the nice things is that, having learned to defend against wrist holds, when you come to defend against punches, it is so much easier, as the attacker is moving.

But attackers do grab people: a man tried to drag my wife into a car (pity for him she's nidan aikido!). People grab you to pull you into a punch, or onto the ground ...

Best wishes,

Peter

shihonage
02-14-2003, 02:17 AM
But attackers do grab people: a man tried to drag my wife into a car (pity for him she's nidan aikido!).
What happened ?

PeterPhilippson
02-14-2003, 12:59 PM
What happened ?
She hit him hard and he changed his mind.

Peter

cindy perkins
03-09-2003, 12:41 PM
I have been told, when my uke lets go, that I have been too abrupt in my entry. As I begin a technique, uke should still feel "in control" until the point that their balance is gone and hanging on or letting go becomes unimportant. I have found also that when I am uke for a skilled practitioner, I grab like I mean to keep them from leaving (probably so I can punch with the other hand), and then there's no more opportunity to think about it. It seems to me that Joseph's problem may go back to those who taught him; either he did not ask or they did not successfully teach how and why we grab.

P.S. As a woman, I find the likelihood of a wrist grab being used in a "real situation" quite high!

JW
03-09-2003, 10:01 PM
I have been told, when my uke lets go, that I have been too abrupt in my entry. As I begin a technique, uke should still feel "in control" until the point that their balance is gone and hanging on or letting go becomes unimportant.
Now THAT is cool. I think that is how it should be: nage encourages the initial attack.
Often, as the posts here reflect, people teach that it is all up to uke to maintain the grab. In other words nage's role is limited to either aggressively encouraging uke to hang on (by threatening an atemi).. which is good but limited in my opinion.. or desperately preventing uke from seperating (by masterfully taking balance).. which when successful is really cool, but this is very difficult and therefore I feel it is not very fail-safe.

Something that is much simpler and readily accessible is to encourage and foster what uke has already decided to do: grab. I think in combination with the other ideas discussed in this thread, this makes for very effective and realistic training.
Cindy, what tradition of aikido is your teacher from? Just curious.
--JW

shadow
03-09-2003, 11:15 PM
what i was responding to was not when you grab someone's wristy and then do a move, but rather when one is told to hold onto someone else's wrists who is practising the move. It is ridiculous to train in a way that is so artificial. If you need to let go, let go.....

this is different than an offensive wrist grab, if you are attacking, then it is obvious you don't let go.
as was stated before if you let go you get hit.

when i grab my sensei even if his arm is not aiming towards me he feels like a tightly wound spring and i know if i let go i will get thrown prematurely and akwardly or hit. so i hold on till he lets me let go. thats something we train to focus all your attention on uke, uke should have the feeling that it is undesirable to let go at any point.

also as mentioned a hand grip can happen from anything, just cos someone wants to grab or because they are trying to neutralise an offensive movement. either way a grab is still a linear movement and just a more basic workable model of any other form of linear movement, ie punch.

so for basic training we grip to give nage something to work with and at more advanced we just punch.

cindy perkins
03-12-2003, 12:42 AM
JW --

Isn't it awful? I don't know what tradition my teacher is from. I know that our school is different from most in that we typically start a technique not in either hanmi, but square on to uke. (Uke often steps forward to strike.) Does that provide some hint?

Kelly Allen
03-12-2003, 02:25 AM
nope!

kensparrow
03-12-2003, 07:09 AM
I have been told, when my uke lets go, that I have been too abrupt in my entry. As I begin a technique, uke should still feel "in control" until the point that their balance is gone and hanging on or letting go becomes unimportant.
I really like that. It puts the focus on dealing with what uke is really giving you (a weak grab in this case) and not on what you expect him to give. I'll have to remember that the next time I get to work with a brand new student who hasn't been told the "correct" way to grab. It's a lot nicer than hitting him in the face and saying "see what happens when you let go!" :D

Thanks for the insight.

cindy perkins
03-17-2003, 02:48 PM
My teacher tells me his sensei learned from Todd Sensei. Helps?

JW
03-17-2003, 07:53 PM
My teacher tells me his sensei learned from Todd Sensei. Helps?
Hmm... no but I guess I could look him up. Anyway I asked because I wondered if you were talking about concepts from a branch of aikido that is already known or unknown to me.... I guess my question is answered!

I'll keep an eye out for the non-starting-in-hanmi style. Thanks!

--JW

Daniel Blanco
03-23-2003, 02:42 PM
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN AIKIDO MOVES TRAIN YOU TO DEAL WITH ATTACKS WHEN SOMEONE ATTACKS YOU THEY USUALLY ATTACK AND GRAB ONTO YOU AND THERE INTEND IS TO TAKE YOU DOWM/GET YOU OFF BALANCE AIKIDO HAS PROVEN SUCCESS IN MY NYPD POLICE WORK