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orenb
10-19-2000, 01:58 AM
Hey guys,
When we train at our dojo, we kind of assume that a guy that throws a mune tsuki at us, will hold his hand in place afer we have successfuly avoided the punch, that gives us sufficient time to get our act together and execute a thechnique ( such as kotegaesh for example ). what can we do if the aggressor is not as polite and chooses ( like most do ) to pull his arm quickly after a strike?

Thanx

Simone
10-19-2000, 02:22 AM
Hi Orenb!

Sometimes we try this situation in the dojo. It's really hard, I think.

What I try is to step out of the line as in the ''the fist stays''-situation, get contact with my hand, move back with the fist of my partner while keeping contact and perform a very short (and painful) version of kotegaeishi. But it sounds more easy than it actually is. And with the guys that also do karate, I don't have a chance yet!

Hope that helps,

Simone

JJF
10-19-2000, 04:01 AM
I'm not really an authority on this, but I think that perhaps when you become really good (many years of practice :)) you will be able to have moved into position and meet the opponents hand in the exact fraction of a second when his arm is extended to the fullest, and from there you can apply the technique. This will also be the time during the attack when the attacker is closest to loosing his ballance.

My teacher emphasizes that the first split-second before the technique, is of outmost importance in Aikido. If you don't get it right - then you can only do the technique if you either muscle it through or if the opponent/partner is moving so slowly that you can go on from there. If he is right it is a question of timing and perhaps this is one of the things that make Aikido so difficult and so fascinating.

Perhaps what makes this difficult is that we tend to think in a sequential way ie: "First I should get away from the attack/block the attack - Secondly I should move into position for applying the technique. Thirdly I should perform the technique. etc.". Perhaps we should instead consider every step as integrated into the technique along with the crucial timing of your reaction to the attack.

Just my thoughts on the matter

andrew
10-19-2000, 05:41 AM
If you need to take time to "get your act together" you need to improve your entering. Pactice lots.
The techniques are fine, they just need a lot of practice. When you're good enough, you'll be able to take the hand over ukes vehement resistance.

Do you practice atemi in this situation?
andrew

ian
10-19-2000, 05:44 AM
I really don't believe you can react fast enough to defend against a reverse punch or a jab or often even quite powerful attacks in a specific manner. Most good fighters/boxers/karatekas will try to prevent over-extension and always pull their arm back as quick as possible, often when the next strike in their combination of hits is about to occur.

You cannot defend against any specific attack because you have to initiate your entering movement as the attack starts to be made (as is constantly practised with boken work). My technique involves raising both arms to a jodan (high) position whilst moving in (and off centre line). This has many advantages ->

1. if it is a low strike or kick you are out of the way of it and your arms can quickly lay across their arms/legs for a technique (even if they withdraw quickly you should be close enough to their body to do this)

2. moving off centre line and into close body contact should avoid the impact of any strike; in fact the strike really shouldn't be completed because you need to make contact as soon as possible.

3. If they are strong you have both your arms up their feeling their resistance and you can lead this to whatever technique is appropriate.

4. your strong entering movement should disconcert them and break their balance anyway. - as was mentioned by Ueshiba in a Doka of the day; even though there are whirling swords/fists around you, you MUST enter. Backing off from a technique just puts you in a great position for their next strike.

summary:
make contact as soon as possible (if you know they are going to attack, don't wait for the attack to occur).

keep your guard up, but use it also to make contact with the person (esp. arms etc) and do what is most appropriate to that position.

ian
10-19-2000, 05:49 AM
Irimi nage is always a good technique to do if you are facing someone who is likely to jab or strike quickly and withdraw because you don't need their arms or legs. The close contact is also is very disconcerting to the type of fighter who wants to keep you at their ideal fighting distance by jabbing you. - always play to your opponents weekness (that is why I would use lots of close contact techniques with karatekas and longer distance arm/joint techniques with judo people; of course you may never really know what they do until too late).

ian
10-19-2000, 05:55 AM
P.S. my instructor always said that in many fights (esp. down pubs etc) you can see that someone wants to be aggressive, so what you do is offer put your arms out in front of you in an open (palms up or at least side ways) position and say something like 'look mate, calm down' and then you already have your arms ready to come up in a guard position of if you're lucky they will be stupid enough to grab one of your inviting looking arms to pull you in for a better punch.

Another alternative is to strike shomen to their heads before they get a strike in, and as soon as they do their typical karate style overhead block you take their arm for ikkyo - there are many techniques in Aikido where you can actually initiate an attack to promote the desired response.

orenb
10-19-2000, 06:03 AM
Thanx for all the replies, some things are a lot clearer now.

lyam
10-19-2000, 07:42 AM
I agree with many of the previous replys. Also, what about maintaining ma-ai and continually stepping off line to evade these jabs/rabbit punches/reverse punches? Eventually the attacker may get tired of that strategy and try something a little more sloppy, like a roundhouse, upercut, mune-tsuki, rush forward, grab/grapple, etc........

jxa127
10-19-2000, 08:10 AM
My instructor recommends something that he saw Segal Sensei do in a video: go for the shoulder instead of the hand when uke jabs. That way, when his hand comes back, your hand is right there for kotegaishi.

-Drew A.

Guest5678
10-19-2000, 10:27 AM
No doubt, this kind of attack is very common. Not very smart to leave your arm out after a punch... I practice doing irimi at the same time uke launches. Hard to explain but I'll try;

If uke punches with the right arm, I pivot while stepping slightly offline to my left. While entering, attack uke's center line (towards uke's face) across their extended elbow with your left arm. Use your right arm to parry uke's strike. This happens very quickly as you are entering at the same time uke is attacking. Usually this is enough incentive for uke to keep the striking arm extended because if uke draws it back, uke eats a fist. (isn't it amazing what the brain will sacrifice to save the head from getting hit?)

I usually get three different results from doing this,

1. Uke draws the arm back anyway and gets hit in the face. Then put's it back up to protect the head from further blows. (your choice of technique here)

2. Uke changes purpose of striking arm from attack to defense
( this is the usual response. again, your choice of technique from here)

3. Uke trys blocking your atemi with opposite (left) hand. (classic setup for ikkyo)

This of course is what I practice in the dojo. In the "street", I like to de-fang the snake first when it comes to boxers or "strikers". (I've used this on both types with much success) That is, close your hand, using the middle knuckles of your fingers (like knocking on a door), atemi with a whipping motion and strike the back of the persons hand as they jab or better if you can catch them posing for an opening with their guard up. Boxers love to keep their hands up thereby making their hands available targets. If you strike hard, they will naturally pull it back which creates an opening for you to enter. Usually you end up breaking bones in their hand which tends to discourage them from throwing it out again. IF YOU PRACTICE THIS IN THE DOJO PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL as the bones on the back of the hand are very close to the surface and break real easy. It doesn't take much of a strike to really do a lot of damage here. If you want to practice this little move, try slapping the back of uke's hand with an open hand. The motion and timing is the same.........

Train hard, Play hard, Live easy.

Dan P - Mongo

ian
10-19-2000, 10:39 AM
Cheers Mongo,
I'd heard about defanging the snake, but the person had used it in the context of a bear hug type grab, to loosen their grip. I never realised it could be used against a boxers guard. Have you ever known it working in a real situation? Is it quick and accurate enough?

Guest5678
10-19-2000, 12:24 PM
ian wrote:
Cheers Mongo,
I'd heard about defanging the snake, but the person had used it in the context of a bear hug type grab, to loosen their grip. I never realised it could be used against a boxers guard. Have you ever known it working in a real situation? Is it quick and accurate enough?

Greetings Ian,

Defanging the snake has broad applications. The best example I've ever seen was on cops when a SWAT sharp shooter shot and destroyed a guys pistol. The look on the guys face was priceless. You often get that pause and that look of "what the #&!!?" As I stated in my first post, yes I've used this several times. It works really well. As with all techniques though, timing is vital. Don't get caught reaching for it. That's the biggest mistake made. This is real hard to explain without a live demo, but the best time to execute this strike is when uke is either just throwing the punch out or while pulling the arm back, or if uke is trying to cover up after a failed punch. This is because when most boxers strike they tend to turn the hand over, this does not leave the back of the hand open while it's fully extended. (unless of course you're really talented at striking down, which I'm not).

Strikers don't usually consider their weapons (ie. hands) as targets. This is very bad for them and very good for us. My sensei likes doing atemi to certain muscles ( like the biceps) as well. It's really hard to throw a punch (or anything else for that matter) when someone parts your bicep muscles.

In any event, when you face a really good striker there are two rules to keep in mind ;

Rule # 1. You're probably going to get hit.

Rule # 2. See rule number one.

The idea is to dictate where and when you get hit. Also, it's how you react to getting hit that will determine whether you become just another statistic or not.......

Dan P. - Mongo

ian
10-19-2000, 12:29 PM
Cheers, I think I could learn a lot from a training partner like you.

Guest5678
10-19-2000, 12:46 PM
ian wrote:
Cheers, I think I could learn a lot from a training partner like you.

Ian,

Thanks. Just lots of experience and having an OUTSTANDING Sensei (Dennis Hooker) . I don't know what you'd learn for sure, I know I could teach you how to treat training injuries anyway.... :p

Train like your life depends on it......for it just might !

Dan P. - Mongo

Aiki1
10-19-2000, 04:07 PM
Three things about "facing a fast puncher" - one, you won't catch their punch. Two, there is a bigger element here, that is, understand how to handle the whole situation, i.e., you are faced with a fast striker. Don't play their game. Three - at a technical level, since you won't catch their hand, don't try - Seagal does do something nice here, he goes for the bicep in his parry instead, This si a good strategy. Actually, anywhere above the elbow is usually fine, because while the fist is traveling a "great" distance, the upper arm is not, and the elbow isn't really either, at least not that much. So if you connect there, and you will be able to (that's the point) you can then slide down and catch the fist or hand for, say, a kotegaeshi, or even stay higher and go to a different tehcnique.

This is one side of the technical approach.

Kevin73
10-19-2000, 10:50 PM
I thought I would throw this into the pot for some additional thought. In my style we are taught to snap back all punches like a whip so they come back faster than they go out. First, this keeps the hand from being caught and second, the hand is used as an offensive weapon on the snapback (the fist is made with the thumb on top like you were going to click a pen).
We also miss sometimes on purpose just to use the snapback to go into joint manipulations and strikes.

When I first started in aikido, I pointed this out to my instructor and they didn't believe it until I showed them what I was talking about. The best way to learn all of this is to study striking arts, not just drop aikido, but learn how to throw a proper punch and the strategies a good puncher/kicker uses to set up his attack and then plan accordingly for ideas.

Also, the way I was taught to throw a punch it does not leave me off balance at any point and they could not do a kotegaeshi from a punch to the midsection unless I purposely threw it "wrong" so you will have to rely on other methods if a striker knows what he/she is doing.

Just some thoughts to consider on this.

Erik
10-19-2000, 11:08 PM
I just wanted to comment that what Larry Novick described is exactly how I was taught. The other benefit of the elbow is that your spacing gets better because you have to get closer to your partner to get the elbow. Going for the hand tends to leave a lot of openings at an ideal striking range when you miss it and you will miss it.

jvdz
10-20-2000, 05:21 AM
It's all about the momentum.
You can do kung fu,karate or any martial art, but if you react on just the right moment victory is yours.
That's where we train for right, being on the right place at the right time?
Also it's ok to dodge.

RICK
10-24-2000, 06:25 PM
I have been following this forum ( REVERSE PUNCH) pretty closely
and it seems to me that the attacker has taken everyones balance,
that has replied,from them. Mental balance that is. Look beyond the
obvious attempted solution to this attack and dig deeper for another
defense. Such as, atemi to the face and go to seiza position. Any ideas
on this? They are possibilities to this just think a little.

Aiki1
10-24-2000, 06:37 PM
RICK wrote:
I have been following this forum ( REVERSE PUNCH) pretty closely
and it seems to me that the attacker has taken everyones balance,
that has replied,from them. Mental balance that is. Look beyond the
obvious attempted solution to this attack and dig deeper for another
defense. Such as, atemi to the face and go to seiza position. Any ideas
on this? They are possibilities to this just think a little.

If I didn't think you were sincere, I would consider this a nonsense reply. Think a little.

RICK
10-24-2000, 07:27 PM
Not trying to step on any ones toes by no means. Just wanted some feed back on something other than what is stareing everyone right in the face.
I have wonder also how i would handle attacks like this. So i started
looking beyond the obvious.
I apologize if i offended anyone,didn't intend to do that.

guest1234
10-25-2000, 08:48 AM
reading the question and replies makes me see a variety of interpretations of the question:
1. the technique demonstrated is a version of kote kaeshi that relies on proper timing to reach uke's hand while extended (i will assume that the asker was NOT grabbing for the hand but using what i think most teach, the contact the upper arm and slide down technique) and could not execute it in time. the cause of the problem: uke is striking too quickly, the solution: ask him to slow down.

i dislike the pat answer of 'just do another technique (than the one shown) or 'just hit him' to an uke that is not giving an attack appropriate to the technique demonstrated---why not just pull out a gun and shoot him then? nage would like to practice the technique just demonstrated.

2. asker wanted to know other techniques to do instead of what his instructor showed: answer: any of the above suggestions, or think up your own based on where you both are standing, etc...perhaps a kaiten nage since uke is probably resisting forward motion of his arm/fist by this point, or a sudori sankyo....

BC
10-25-2000, 09:25 AM
I watched a visiting shihan at our summer camp deal with this kind of attack, and comment on it. I think someone already made this or a similar point, but, basically, one needs to control the arm before it is taken back. In a properly executed reverse punch, or any strike for that matter, the arm is not tightened until the moment of anticipated impact, at which time it is then retracted/withdrawn. Therefore, you can effectively get off line and grasp, block or parry the arm if you time it right, prior to the arm whipping back. Unfortunately, it can take years until one developes the coordination, speed and timing necessary to be able to execute such a defense, but it can be done.

By the way, I would NEVER go into a seiza position in front of any experienced martial artist who was attacking me.

IMHO.

RICK
10-25-2000, 06:50 PM
[QUOTE]ca wrote:
[B]reading the question and replies makes me see a variety of interpretations of the question:
i dislike the pat answer of 'just do another technique (than the one shown) or 'just hit him' to an uke that is not giving an attack appropriate to the technique demonstrated---why not just pull out a gun and shoot him then? nage would like to practice the technique just demonstrated.

2. asker wanted to know other techniques to do instead of what his instructor showed: answer: any of the above suggestions, or think up your own based on where you both are standing, etc...perhaps a kaiten nage since uke is probably resisting forward motion of his arm/fist by this point, or a sudori sankyo....



CA, First of all, I did not say "just hit him". Atemi is used as balance taker,not as an attack, it never connects with attacker.
Secondly, i was trying to give a point of view on other techniques to use.
Nowhere did asker say nage had to continue to stand. Be prepared to
adapt to any given situation.

RICK
10-25-2000, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE][i]BC wrote

By the way, I would NEVER go into a seiza position in front of any experienced martial artist who was attacking me.


BC, hamni handchi is an excellance source of training.

Nick
10-25-2000, 06:59 PM
first thing that is taught at my dojo against a mune or men tsuki- don't try to catch it. I tried a couple times, and lost whatever I might have gained because by catching it, I was far away from him, making the lead harder, and when my sensei really wanted to make the point, they just came at me so if I tried to catch it I would miss completely...

something like that really comes into play with something like teppo-tori. you have to create your own momentum, and grabbing their wrist and trying to lead them will, in most cases get you shot.

Or so I think...

Nick
10-25-2000, 07:06 PM
RICK wrote:
[QUOTE][i]BC wrote


BC, hamni handchi is an excellance source of training.

Agreed, but the idea from it is that seiza can be a rather inoppurtune position... more people would be content to kick you in the head if they saw u in seiza rather than try and grab a shoulder or reach down to punch you.

Not to mention the time it would take and the openings you would create for yourself.

as a sidenote rick, are you familiar with the terms ma-ai and re-ai?

RICK
10-25-2000, 07:30 PM
Quote Nick wrote;

Agreed, but the idea from it is that seiza can be a rather inoppurtune position... more people would be content to kick you in the head if they saw u in seiza rather than try and grab a shoulder or reach down to punch you.

Not to mention the time it would take and the openings you would create for yourself.


" Openings you would create for yourself " thats right, Nick, for YOURSELF.

crystalwizard
10-25-2000, 08:47 PM
so if someone kicked you while you were (seated/kneeling/on the ground somehow)...couldn't you do about the same thing with the flying foot you'd do with a flying fist while you were standing?

______
Kelly

ian
10-26-2000, 06:20 AM
I think Rick has a bit of a point, although I wouldn't try this myself:-
I was practicing Aikido with someone who had done a bit of Kung Fu and he did some weird technique (I think it was something like the way of the monkey), swooping down in front of me and then lifting my leg to flip me off my feet. It was very effective, even though it you could never do it twicce and it put him in a very prone position. Sometimes the unexpected works because it is just that. (the reason I wouldn't do it is that I assume everyone is a bit scrappy in real situations, kicking, punching and biting anything that comes near them.)

Nick
10-28-2000, 05:43 PM
RICK wrote:


" Openings you would create for yourself " thats right, Nick, for YOURSELF.


So then, why not avoid that in the first place and remain on your feet?

George S. Ledyard
10-31-2000, 05:12 AM
Nick wrote:
RICK wrote:
[QUOTE][i]BC wrote


BC, hamni handchi is an excellance source of training.

Agreed, but the idea from it is that seiza can be a rather inoppurtune position... more people would be content to kick you in the head if they saw u in seiza rather than try and grab a shoulder or reach down to punch you.

Not to mention the time it would take and the openings you would create for yourself.

as a sidenote rick, are you familiar with the terms ma-ai and re-ai?

I would heartly recommend that people check out Mr. Vasiliyev at http://www.russianmartialart.com
He hs a two video set on fighting from the round that is absolutely oustanding and will give you a new picture of what is possiblefrom that position. The techniques are quite compatible with Aikido principles.

crystalwizard
10-31-2000, 07:28 AM
Nick wrote:
[QUOTE]RICK wrote:

So then, why not avoid that in the first place and remain on your feet?



because sometimes you wind up on the ground whether you intended to be there or not.

javi-o
11-13-2000, 05:07 PM
Hello,
though I've visited Aikisites for a while, this is the very first time(or second) I send a comentary.
I think The most effective counter to a punch is another punch or a blow with the palm of the hand, believe me it is the most effective thing. Also this could be better done in an irimi nage like way

Nacho
11-13-2000, 08:52 PM
Hello, trying to answer the original question of this forum, I will explain (or try to) what one of my instructors has told me. I'm a bit flexible so sometimes when being uke for kotegaeshi I could strike Nage's face before falling. So he told me that when uke attacks, it isn't just the punch and that's all, the attack must continue, attacking nage's center, and that is somehow protecting Uke, because, if Nage feels that Uke did not continue his attack (punch and go backwards), Nage can punch him (with his elbow, fist, etc).
I think that before everything you have to move and enter to take a good position, to feel his attack, and have the chance to strike him.
Someone posted here that Saotome Sensei said that if uke knows that you won't strike him, he can stop any attack.

Nacho.

As I always say, excuse my english.

[Edited by Nacho on November 13, 2000 at 08:54pm]

akiy
11-13-2000, 09:38 PM
Nacho, please use your real name to sign your posts. Thank you.

-- Jun

javi-o
11-14-2000, 03:30 PM
Hello!
yesterday I couldnīt finish what I intendeded to say.
I agree with theperson who wrote that in aikido tori can start the accion in order to generate a gap in ukeīs guard,
also I consider it is desireable sometimes to punch than to break an arm. One counter punch is the most efective teqnique against another one, specially if the one that punches is very skillful in the matter, remember good punchers are fast and never loose balance and so do not put themselves in an aikido-teqnique-like situation. Therefore is to enter is needed. And so to practice this "entrance" in opponents guard and throw him while punching(or kicking), this is more for ending a fight than to actually hurt him(what actually happens). During practice be careful, aikido irimi-like blows, since you use the whole body and sometimes manipulate joints in a fast way in their execution, are very dangerous.

Bye
Javier

ian
11-15-2000, 02:31 AM
I think its becoming apparent that we are considering defence against different types of attacker, namely:
1. those who are very scrappy, with fast repeated and unpredictable punches, and who will tend to pull back into themselves whenever you grab an arm
2. those who do very powerful punches or kicks in a martial way
3. As (2) but can also counter strikes with counter punches or aiki/jujitsu techniques.

Type 2, is what we usually train to deal with, though they are more likely to struggle than we may expect. Type 3 may counter our techniques, especially if we also offer atemis. Type 1 is hard to do a technique on if they are very quick, but are also unlikely to do much damage.

I think the answer is strong and dynamic aikido technique where you can over-power your attacker without:
a. causing too much resistance ('forcefull' but not 'strong'?)
b. needing limbs etc to stay where they are (i.e. being able to move back into uke if they withdaw a limb)

I wonder whether it is worth practising technique with uke trying to withdraw their striking limb, to get used to blending with this movement?

Ian

SeiWhat?!?
12-01-2000, 12:25 AM
We've dealt with this type of question as well in our class. We also have a former boxer who is very fast with the left jab. After several unsuccessful attempts at applying kotegaeshi, hantai ikkyo, and kokyu nage, we discovered that he has a right arm! :)

Using that new found knowledge, instead of stepping off to our right (on the "safe" side), we did a choyaku movement, hooked his right elbow and turned him into a human slingshot several feet across the room. It took him completely off guard because his focus was on his left jab.

Another technique we used was to toss our sweat towels at him, giving us an opening to turn tail and run. :)

Serrada
12-08-2000, 06:46 PM
Rick Fieldings' mention of going into a seiza position reminded me of a picture I've seen of O Sensei doing something similar, except it was actually a rei. I draw no cnclusions from this, it's just my two cents.

Evan Buckley.

Aikilove
12-09-2000, 05:05 PM
javi-o wrote:
One counter punch is the most efective teqnique against another one, specially if the one that punches is very skillful in the matter, remember good punchers are fast and never loose balance and so do not put themselves in an aikido-teqnique-like situation.

Maybe so javi-o, but it remindes me of a story from Aikifaq.com about this seminar with different MA:iests. This Karateka (And I do beleave they can punch) asked this Aikidoka about how to handle multiple punches. The Aikidoka told him to try it on him, which he did and ended up on the mat with a breakfall. The Aikidoka asked him why he didn't threw the x:nd punch. The stunned karateka said that as soon the Aikidoka started with his (kotegeishi I think) all thought of a x:nd punch was vanished. All hi could think of was how to regain his balance :rolleyes:, wich of course hi didn't.

To answer the first question raised in this thred - this week we've trained against ski's with and without tanto. And what we focosed on specially, was being totaly relaxed in your arm closesed to uke in e.i kotegeishi, i.e the hand that (in our cases) blockes and goes from the elbow and down to grab the ukes punching hand - just incase uke pull it back with the speed of lightning. We have a nidan karateka in our club who is a hot as uke when we train this.

Aikilove
12-09-2000, 05:10 PM
:ai::ki::do:
:eek: I noticed I forgot to sign with may name :0

Jakob B