PDA

View Full Version : Aikido does not work at all in a fight.


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


joeysola
10-17-2000, 04:14 PM
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

chrisinbrasil
10-17-2000, 04:25 PM
Hey Joe,
Where did you here that in no form of Aikido do practitioners grapple or strike? That is inaccurate. I happen to have practiced one or two things in my short life(see profile) and can tell you that Aikido can be integrated into real fights just as any other art. Not all Aikidoka believe that Aikido is the one and only, just like you´d likely take a severe beating from a friend and me if you used only BJJ. At a high enough level, perhaps Aikido can be considered complete because what you see happen in NHB would theoretically not happen were you skilled enough in Aikido, at least not in the way featured on TV. Your joints move the same direction no matter what "style" you´re in. Therefore you could use Aikido from the floor, standing, sitting, or otherwise. Maybe you shouldn´t judge a book by it´s cover.
My two bits. :)
At your service,
Christopher

Nick
10-17-2000, 05:34 PM
ouch, that's rather one sided.

I suppose the reason people think Aikido is ineffective is that, in the dojo, everyone is in total cooperation. While usually not taking a fall for their nage, they do relax and blend into it. Why? Firstly, it lets them 'feel' the technique. I learn almost as much from being uke as I do from being nage. Also, resisting an Aikido technique (such as iriminage or sankyo) is a good way to hurt yourself.

I see my sensei go at it in the dojo, and I have no doubt they could do the same if they had to fight.

About BJJ- Never seen it, so I can't say. However, if someone is more skilled than you, there's two pretty good ways to get out of it.

1. Talk your way out of it.

2. Run.

Cheers,

adamk
10-17-2000, 06:31 PM
What if you are not a very fast runner?

Anyways. I always thought the UFC NHB matches weren't actually NHB. I thought there was no eye gouging or biting? If I ever find myself in a positon where a BJJ guy is about to break my arm I am going to stick my thumb in his eye.

Adam
"it's not the martial art, it's the martial artist."

Kevin
10-17-2000, 10:52 PM
Hey all!

I think that aikido is a way to get yourself out of a fight, not into one. Its not like you are going to walk down the street, punch some idiot, and start using your aikido. It doesn't work that way. The whole point is that you will be able to get out of a sticky position without killing yourself.

Kevin
http://www.aikidouniverse.com

stratcat
10-18-2000, 12:24 AM
No disrespect, but why do I feel like we've had this discussion before? To say Aikido has no striking techniques is completely false. The concept of atemi is ALWAYS a part of Aikido. I don't know what style of Aikido you have witnessed, but the fact is that atemiwaza, or critical strikes, are necessary to all techniques of Aikido. We do not throw punches blindly, however, nor do we rely on sheer power to strike. Our intent, when we strike is not to "damage" the opponent per se, but rather to create an opening for our technique. So the statement "there are no practical striking techniques," is FALSE. We simply do not RELY on them to overpower an attacker. Brute force is never the Way.

Secondly, although what you term "real" matwork is rare, there are important pinning techniques which we use to subdue an opponent. The reason for a "lack" of grappling techniques is that Aikido concerns itself with multiple attackers. When you are grappling, you necessarily have to deal with only one opponent. What if you are accosted by several attackers? Are you going to grapple with one and hope that the others take turns?

You speak of Aikido's treatment of spiritual themes and harmony. This is not mere lip- service. They are fundamental in understanding Aikido techniques and principles. They are also a way of looking at life that does not rely on agression, but rather in acceptance and re- direction.

To an Aikidoka, their Art is meant to be used for self- defense, but it goes far beyond that into a way to become more than what we are. Why do you train? To compete? That's a laudable goal, but is competition the be- all, end- all of your training? Aikido gives you pure training, and self discipline; you compete against yourself. Do you train to become a bad- ass? That's fine, until someone better comes along, and beats the living crap out you. Remember, there's always someone better. I believe that those of us who regularly post here agree that it's not the Martial Art, it's the Martial Artist. A martial art is never more than the spirit and intent you put into it. Agression begets agression. Perhaps that's why Aikido doesn't "work" for you?

From your post, it is unclear whether or not you have practiced aikido, but I'm sure all us would certainly welcome you to train at any Aikido dojo. I would certainly recommend at least trying it out. Then you could at least decide for yourself its effectiveness from firsthand experience. Who knows, you might end up liking it.

andrew
10-18-2000, 04:46 AM
joeysola wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh stop it!
andrew

joeysola
10-18-2000, 09:05 AM
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.

The reason Aikido striking and Grappling do not work is that there is no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques. Why do you think that the most successful NHB competitors are athletes who compete in a martial sport.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage. What really amazed me is that they did not even react. How can an Aikido practitioner expect to defend against a quick strong jab, that even people with no martial arts experience can do, by taking large steps and with elaborate hand movements. The answer is a broken nose every time.

Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.

AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.

RoninKivjoru
10-18-2000, 09:23 AM
First of all, I have to say that Aikidoists have no place in a UFC, that's the whole idea of Aikido. But there is much practical knowledge to be gained in Aikido, that is more than useful on the street. First being able to judge one's Ki, and knowing whether they pose a threat. I believe that any Aikidoist who has been paying attention to the entire training of Aikido, and not just the movements, should be someone who is very hard to suprise in a street. Especially if they've become acustomed to 'keeping their head on a swivell' as my boss used to say. Secondly, being in tune with your opponents Ki, once a confrontation is unavoidable, is the best way to keep yourself from getting hurt, if you move when they move and are simply not there when the strike or attack lands, you suddenly have an advantage. HAving my base in Karate, and not Aikido, I would probably revert back to it in a real fight. But, I feel the teaching of being one with your opponent, and feeling his Ki is invaluable, and would likely not have ever been able to survive a fight without it. I have yet to come across a martial art that puts so much emphasis on this philosophy, and whether I am using Aikdio techniquees, or Karate, these will help me in all aspects of my life.

Kevin73
10-18-2000, 09:25 AM
I was curious, what were the names of those Aikido fighters in the UFC and what UFC did they compete in. The reason I ask is I own 1-12 on video and would like to rewatch those fights. Thanks.
Kevin

MikeE
10-18-2000, 10:28 AM
This is in reply to Joey Sola.

Funny way of looking at things. I have been training in aikido for 12 years and in Rickson Gracie BJJ for 4 years. (I also have 6 years of Okinawan Kempo training). BJJ, if you step back and look at it, is very much like aikido in philosophy. You are trying to move one step ahead of your opponent so you can submit him with as little effort as possible. BJJ techniques require the same amount of relaxation as aikido. You are relaxed until the point it's time not to be relaxed. I have quickly gone up the rank in BJJ and I believe it's mainly because of my aikido. I find them very complimentary.
One thing, Joey, have you ever tried clinching on an experienced aikidoka? Since I teach in a cross training dojo I have had people try to test the effectiveness of aikido. You may be in for a surprise.
In aikido we stress ma-ai. (Proper distance) We often defend this with strikes and kicks. This doesn't play well into a BJJ cross trainers game.
I think your rash statement is more out of lack of information than anything. Before you knock any art, I suggest you try it.
As for usefulness in NHB fights. Once again you should probably open your eyes. Sakuraba uses what has been termed a "kimura". It is a common standing lock in aikido called Hiji-kime. He used this to wear down Royce and broke Renzo's arm in consecutive Pride Fights. If it wasn't aikido, how he used it to throw Renzo, was at least, very aikido-ish.

Also, I compete in local submission jiu-jitsu tournaments and I have utilized aikido techniques with great success.

crystalwizard
10-18-2000, 11:15 AM
any grappler actualy being able to get a grip on my sensei or any of our blackbelts. they're moving as the grab comes in. Like trying to grab smoke I believe was the description I heard.

Kelly

lt-rentaroo
10-18-2000, 11:41 AM
Hello,

I've used Aikido techniques in several situations where the individual trying to cause me harm was a grappler / wrestler. Just as Mike stated in the above response, most grapplers and wrestlers do not respond well when confronted with an opponent who knows how to maintain proper distance. One encounter I had was during high school (many years ago), another student tried to "shoot" for my legs (a common wrestling takedown); as he bent over to reach for my legs, he left himself wide open for me to perform a very nice Kaitenage. Since that day, the wrestler (he was bigger than me and had supposedly won many trophies for his wrestling ability) has never even looked at me funny.
My point here is that Aikido can be used as self-defense, I know because I've proved it to myself and individuals who have tried to cause me harm. Aikido students do not train for competition (with the possible exception of Tomiki Aikido). The focus is on protecting yourself and becoming a better person, not on competition. I believe that a person must train diligently and have a strong grasp on the fundamentals in an art (whatever art it is) before they pass judgement on the arts effectiveness. It has been stated before, and I shall repeat it; It's not the martial art, but the martial artist.

ScottyC
10-18-2000, 02:57 PM
joeysola wrote:
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

Wow! You "checked out some classes" and got "some lessons" from a friend, and now you know enough to say definitively and without a doubt that aikido has no practical application?

Either you're the world's greatest genius, or the world's greatest @##.

To paraphrase a wonderful aikidoka I have trained with and respect a great deal:
Aikido works. Your aikido doesn't. Don't confuse the two.

I couldn't say it better.


Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work.

And just because *you* don't care for them doesn't mean that they don't.


Regards,

Scott

REK
10-18-2000, 03:41 PM
Hey folks, new to the web, good to meet you. My response to this thread is probably more conceptual than the originator asks for. I think that we should remember that bugeisha, like the animal kingdom, exist in various evolutionary strata. We (as a society) need the angry, the adolescent and the aggressive. These are the individuals who people our armed forces (not that there is anything wrong with that...). Those who have evolved past these stages can appreciate conflict at a much more complex level than "you didn't punch me right". Ok, so your friend didn't impress you with his aikido. You couldn't find a use for it. Fine. Practice something else. You don't sound like someone for whom this martial art fits anyway. My grandfather said: the way you ask the question suggests you won't understand the answer. Best of luck in your continued training.

adamk
10-18-2000, 03:46 PM
" AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD
USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT
FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT
TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A
FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN
A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE."

Thats right, I can't fight or grapple. I don't want to. I just want to protect myself. You can't lose if you don't compete.

-adam
"who said I had lots of training?"

George S. Ledyard
10-18-2000, 04:34 PM
joeysola wrote:
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.


You are right. I would recommend that you seek out a good Jeet Kun Do school if you are interested in fighting. Aikido does not have what you are looking for. After you have spent many years learning how to fight and are good and beat up and very tough, come back and you might find something in Aikido worth loking at.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage.
[/QUOTE]

No, you did not see two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the UFC. The folks you saw were just mid level students of the art. To my knowledge, none of the senior teachers of Aikido has participated in this type of contest nor are they likely to.

Aiki1
10-18-2000, 05:20 PM
MikeE wrote:
This is in reply to Joey Sola.

Funny way of looking at things. I have been training in aikido for 12 years and in Rickson Gracie BJJ for 4 years. (I also have 6 years of Okinawan Kempo training). BJJ, if you step back and look at it, is very much like aikido in philosophy. You are trying to move one step ahead of your opponent so you can submit him with as little effort as possible. BJJ techniques require the same amount of relaxation as aikido. You are relaxed until the point it's time not to be relaxed. I have quickly gone up the rank in BJJ and I believe it's mainly because of my aikido. I find them very complimentary.
One thing, Joey, have you ever tried clinching on an experienced aikidoka? Since I teach in a cross training dojo I have had people try to test the effectiveness of aikido. You may be in for a surprise.
In aikido we stress ma-ai. (Proper distance) We often defend this with strikes and kicks. This doesn't play well into a BJJ cross trainers game.
I think your rash statement is more out of lack of information than anything. Before you knock any art, I suggest you try it.
As for usefulness in NHB fights. Once again you should probably open your eyes. Sakuraba uses what has been termed a "kimura". It is a common standing lock in aikido called Hiji-kime. He used this to wear down Royce and broke Renzo's arm in consecutive Pride Fights. If it wasn't aikido, how he used it to throw Renzo, was at least, very aikido-ish.

Also, I compete in local submission jiu-jitsu tournaments and I have utilized aikido techniques with great success.




Right On!

I have taught Aikido for about 18 years now, and I have trained extensively in Rickson Gracie BJJ as well with Luis Heredia. Aikido is the best art that I've see so far that is effective in it's technique and strategy when facing grapplers. It's funny - usually it's martial artists without grappling experience who tend to be closed-minded and such about BJJ, but here's a case of the opposite.

Aiki1
10-18-2000, 05:41 PM
George S. Ledyard wrote:
[QUOTE]
I would recommend that you seek out a good Jeet Kun Do school if you are interested in fighting. Aikido does not have what you are looking for. After you have spent many years learning how to fight and are good and beat up and very tough, come back and you might find something in Aikido worth looking at.

Good answer.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage.


No, you did not see two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the UFC. The folks you saw were just mid level students of the art. To my knowledge, none of the senior teachers of Aikido has participated in this type of contest nor are they likely to.

If there was ever Anyone in the UFC who Actually studied any Aikido, I never saw them. And I was into that whole scene.

Let me say this about Aikido and BJJ etc. If there is anyone who thinks they can take on good BJJ stylist and has not had any experience on the ground, they are dreaming. They won't be able to do much if anything, certainly not eye gouge or strike. Believe me. That said, Aikido is a very, very different approach to conflict than any other art. At the technical level, it's a very good way of dealing with someone trying to go to the clinch or get a double-leg takedown etc. But it's way more than that.

I teach some of my guys how to deal with kickboxers, grapplers etc. when they ask (they train in all sorts of other stuff.) I don't teach them how to square off with other fighters and best them, I teach them how to look at the whole thing differently, and not buy into the fight itself. It's a whole different atory. (And yes, at the technical level they do get very good results.)

But Aikido is way beyond that too. That's just a particular application. It's a whole different ball game.

Nick
10-18-2000, 07:04 PM
Couldn't said it better.

[Edited by Nick on October 18, 2000 at 06:07pm]

Yozzer
10-19-2000, 04:35 AM
I think it says a lot about the originator of this thread that they should post something so contentious but want to remain anonymous. Giving no indication of their credentials or identifying any of their instructors.

Just to reiterate what has been said before, go away and learn how to fight and come back when you want to learn how not to.

Paul

ian
10-19-2000, 07:11 AM
There is a point, in that many people do practise Aikido without reference to the real world situations - however there are many that do not. Both my previous instructors were 2nd Dan in Karate before going into Aikido and there are also many Judo people that come into it (often through injury from both these sports).

I think a good knowledge of martial arts and fighting techniques (including the speed and power with which a boxer can hit you) is essential. Luckily Aikido should also be teaching you good strong Karate style attacks, and judo style strangle holds. After doing Aikido for only two years I managed to help the local karate instructor (who was a friend) who had been wrestled to the floor of a night club by a local bully. A good strong strangle hold from behind, and withdrawing him into a prone position was enough to make him give up.

You confuse Aikido with sports. Aikido is a martial art and it is an aid to your self defence. You do not 'Aikido' someone. If you are in a real situation you use everything that you can (strikes, grapples, chokes etc) but Aikido has the benefit of helping to maximise your body movement during such situations, to get out of the way of attacks, and to do things which people who do sports such as wrestling, karate or judo, would not be able to do due to these moves being illegal in their practise. Their are no illegal techniques in Aikido, even though we usually practise in a formalised manner there is always room for a beginner to ask, but what if I did this?

(This is what I find frustrating about ground work in Judo, some things just aren't allowed).

ian
10-19-2000, 07:21 AM
Joeysola,

I would agree that ju-jitsu does dominate UFC, but do you not know that Aikido and ju-jitsu have similar roots? Aikido has been adapted to reduce injuries of your opponent and to enable full contact without damage. However, there is definately an argument for making some Aikido clubs have a stronger martial attitude.

Also, if UFC is no hold barred, what happens when someone comes in with a knife? Or what happens if there are three people attacking one. What do you mean that doesn't happen?, it does in real life, and although a wrestler might be able to take someone to the ground and choke them, he won't be able to do it if his bowels are littered across the floor.

P.S. don't take the responses harshly, you've obviously touched a sore point for Aikidokas; but train in the right manner for enough time and you'll realise that Aikido is very realistic (I have used it many times from both armed, unarmed and multiple attacks and I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Aikido).

SmilingNage
10-19-2000, 07:29 PM
there is good in all martial arts dare i even say tae kwan do, but thats another matter. to say aikido isnt practical only shows how much of a fool u trully are. from what u have wrote, u should have never opened up your mouth. until u have put some time in training in any martial art, keep your inaccurate points of view to your self.
it sounds like to me you just wanna study martial arts only to learn how to hurt others. and that for sure is the wrong motivation. because you will always come across someone who is bigger and stronger. then u will be in for a rude awakening. and eventually in those others arts as u get older your "power" will deminish. aikido is for life as it does not pit strength against strength. it agrees with the flow and redirects it. allowing many to practise aikido well into their later years
so please if you are gonna check out the martial arts, please take the time first to evaluate what yourself. if you find you are training to just become the biggest "bad-ass." do us all a favor and dont train. the martial arts are a way of life not a way of taking life. take the time and realize the martial arts are for changing yourself and not to be a point to focus agressive behavior

George S. Ledyard
10-19-2000, 08:32 PM
Aiki1 wrote:

If there was ever Anyone in the UFC who Actually studied any Aikido, I never saw them. And I was into that whole scene.

There was a preliminary match which wasn't actually shown that featured a Tomiki guy. But he was a young guy, under thirty and couldn't haver been all that highly ranked. Anyway, he lost.

les paul
10-19-2000, 09:34 PM
joey sola

I think you got the wrong news group.
The "(rec) martial art news group" is a few doors down. Go play "tuff BJJ guy" over there.
Don't forget to take your black belt and grappler magizines with you.....

Paul C
Michigan

Mike Collins
10-20-2000, 10:42 AM
Joeysola,

I spent much of my younger years fighting in bars and bad places. When I lost, it hurt. When I won, it hurt. Real fighting hurts. When I was doing that I had had no training in martial arts.

I submit to you that martial artists do not live in such a way that getting in street fights is a usual occurrence.

Given that I am unlikely to have to use Aikido in a fight with someone who has trained in martial arts, because (as a general rule) martial artists get all of that out of their systems at the training hall, I have found that Aikido serves quite nicely against the type of low-life scum that would start a fight with me.

Should I ever need to defend myself against someone who starts grappling and/or striking like an expert, you can rest assured that I'll find some way to use the principles of Aikido combined with the spiritual forging I've undertaken to come out alive (or not, and in that case I win too, but that's another string...). I train in principles using techniques as tools for learning. I am not above eye gouging, biting, shooting, chair swinging, or whatever else allows me to stay alive if needed, but when I have a choice, I prefer to use the more elegant solution of both staying safe and keeping my attacker safe.

My Aikido training has helped me make choices that preclude me from being in the situations where "people are always starting stuff with me".

Martial Arts should allow someone who has issues with "what works" to feel safe. But beware of looking for an art that will teach you the technique(s) that will make you invincible, it doesn't exist. That kind of thing comes from an understanding of true principles and severe training which build confidence and stamina and quality of movement and relaxation. My advice: stop looking around at this and that and start some severe training somewhere.

AikiBiker
10-20-2000, 01:10 PM
I personally prefer that everybody that does not train in Aikido believe it has no practical use. There are several good (at least in my opinion) reasons for this.

1. Such a belief would keep wanna be ass-kickers out of Aikido Dojo. I mean how many times have you had someone come into your home Dojo and try to prove how big and bad they are?

2. Hopefully if someone discounts the skills of an Aikidoka they not see a need to prove themselves against him/her. Alternately if they want to teach that Aikidoka a lesson about real life fighting the aggressor might underestimate the Aikidoka.

3. It makes that Nikkyo even more of a surprise. ^_^


Remember please all of the above is my opinion only. Who I could be (probably am) wrong.

Later

chrisinbrasil
10-20-2000, 02:17 PM
Hey joeysola,
As an Aikidoka, I would like to say that you must first inform yourself about things before affirming truths about them. Many have responded to your original post, some in more friendly ways than others, but all with a common point: Aikido works. You might someday have the pleasure of finding that out. There are X number of justifications and techniques to prove these statements, but the most convincing arguement comes in the form of experience, which you need, which you don´t have. Aikido encompasses many teachings.

You said you were looking to find ANOTHER art, well, if you had been in your own long enough, you might have learned that ALL arts have their strong and weak points and you might also have learned not to offend others. You might also have learned that NHB isn´t real life and you might also have learned that it´s unwise to bash people, their arts, their beliefs, etc, especially if you consider training with them in the near future. It seems you still have much learning to do not only in martial arts (which you´ve made painfully clear), but also in the subtleties of inter-personal relations and expression of your opinions. Life has many lessons to teach you, maybe you could even learn some of them here. You would be welcome in the Dojo of any of these posters no doubt. I urge you to find out for yourself if Aikido or your approach to life really WORKS.


(oops forgot to sign my post hint hint)
At your service,
Christopher

[Edited by chrisinbrasil on October 20, 2000 at 01:21pm]

SmilingNage
11-01-2000, 05:09 PM
did u ever see something and said ahh that dont work. be it anything only to find out after having done it that it works. i dont think there isnt anyone in here that hasnt said to themselves at one point in time that this Aikido just isnt gonna work,this technique just wont work, etc. but often after seeing the technique done and trained hard learning that technique you come to the point of understanding that it really does work. and i think that is the point. you cant say Aikido wont work in a fight until you have tried it.
you cant judge the old book by its cover. you just gotta read it. thats my challenge to you

Mike Cummins
11-07-2000, 04:46 AM
>>no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques>>

Perhaps there are no worthless techniques...

Aikido takes a long time to become second nature - much longer than most other martial arts I have seen.

The ideal is be be at the point where there is no 'technique' merely (re)action. These Kokyu can be devastating even when you are expecting them - I have flown over 20 feet into a wall<g>.

Mike

tedehara
11-12-2000, 04:31 PM
joeysola wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

If you've ever had a knife against your throat or looked down the wrong end of a loaded pistol, then you would know the difference between "No Holds Barred Competion" and true self defense.

Apparently you haven't and you should be grateful for that.

Richard Harnack
11-12-2000, 09:57 PM
Since this thread started with comments from a person who thinks UFC represents real fighting, I can see where it all will ultimately lead.

Real fighting, in my childhood at least, involved knees to the groin, kicks to the shins, bloody noses, black eyes, rocks, dirt clods and occasionally a piece of bicycle chain. Presently, real fighting involves automatic pistols, acid in the face and a few other not-so-nice elements. And don't get me started on lawyers and lawsuits.

So let us put to rest that the UFC, WCW, etc. represent anything resmebling real fighting. These have rules and restrictions. All of the posturing before and after a match in my old neighborhood would be met with a cold eye and a "So what".

One, as I often tell my students, Aikido has principles, but no rules.

Two, if you think the goal of a battle is to fully engage and "win", then I refer you to Sun Tzu's "Art of War" on the highest attainment in combat. No, I am not going to give it to you, you'll have to actually read it for yourself. Trust me, it is worth it.

Three, sparring competitions, no matter how much blood may actually be shed, are still controlled environments. Talk to soldiers who have actually been in a "real" fight to find out why competition sport martial arts are not necessarily applicable.

Four, mixing styles sometimes leads to confusion. Remember, there was only one Morihei Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Jigoro Kano, Mas Oyama, etc. Everyone who followed represents a student, mimic or someone who derived their understanding from one or several of these men. While each of these men was aware of other styles, and while each may have trained briefly in those, they found their own path and followed it til their death.

Five, my mother and father both taught me that those who talk loudly about something, often know the least. While those who really know, don't talk. (Or was it Lao Tzu?)

tarik
11-20-2000, 07:02 PM
joeysola wrote:
Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.

With all due respect, NHB bear as much relationship to actual fighting as Olympic fencing does to actual sword work.


AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON.

In a real fight, you use whatever it takes to survive.

What does any of this have to do with Aikido? If you don't think Aikido has anything to teach you, then don't waste your time.

Niadh
11-20-2000, 07:53 PM
Richard,
Sorry, this is a pet peeve here. Just a clarification. Real fights now do not involve automatic pistols. If you are in the states, the gun laws of 1968 ( I think that is the right one) essentially elimated AUTOMATIC weapons from the hands of people, (i.e not the govt.) You may indeed be refering to SEMI-automatic pistols. I know this may seem a small point, but it is sort of like calling a tanto a katana, or a twin turbopro plane, a jet.
Thanks for the rant.
Neil

DemonD
11-21-2000, 10:07 AM
Ah, Your Tiger style is strong but my Dragon style is stronger.

Fighting is Fighting. Doesn't matter how you fight it's the outcome that matters.

Find a style you like and get ready to rumble.

Crude but effective!!

D

Guest5678
11-21-2000, 11:24 AM
Niadh wrote:
Richard,
Sorry, this is a pet peeve here. Just a clarification. Real fights now do not involve automatic pistols. If you are in the states, the gun laws of 1968 ( I think that is the right one) essentially elimated AUTOMATIC weapons from the hands of people, (i.e not the govt.) You may indeed be refering to SEMI-automatic pistols. I know this may seem a small point, but it is sort of like calling a tanto a katana, or a twin turbopro plane, a jet.
Thanks for the rant.
Neil

Neil,

And you assume that because it's made illegal by law that nobody will have or use one? :rolleyes: P-L-E-A-S-E !! Yea, real fights DO include fully auto firearms. If you don't believe this make a trip down to Miami........ or wait, is that still a part of the US? Oops, my bad!

Dan P. - Mongo

Guest5678
11-21-2000, 11:38 AM
joeysola wrote:
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

Perhaps you should clarify your statement to depict the real truth here. That is that YOUR Aikido wouldn't work in an actual fight. Mine however, seems to be working just fine!


Train hard, Play hard, Live easy.

Dan P. - Mongo

REK
11-21-2000, 01:20 PM
If you want to be good at fighting -- fight a lot. If you survive you will be good.

crystalwizard
11-21-2000, 04:05 PM
REK wrote:
If you want to be good at fighting -- fight a lot. If you survive you will be good.

He who laughs and runs away.....lives to fight another day.

Niadh
11-21-2000, 05:39 PM
Dan,
Actually I don't believe that, despite what the media would lead us to believe. However, once again despite what the media would have us believe, the availability iof the two, maybe three, models of automatic pistols is really not something that you can walk up to your neeighborhood arms dealer and buy. Now, as I realize the distinction I made between automatic and semi-automatic may not seem much to some, and others will care only that they are guns and bad, to me it was important to make this distinction.
By the way Dan, thanks for making a point that I have long made. Criminals do not care about the law.
Neil

Guest5678
11-21-2000, 06:33 PM
Niadh wrote:
Dan,
Actually I don't believe that, despite what the media would lead us to believe. However, once again despite what the media would have us believe, the availability iof the two, maybe three, models of automatic pistols is really not something that you can walk up to your neeighborhood arms dealer and buy. Now, as I realize the distinction I made between automatic and semi-automatic may not seem much to some, and others will care only that they are guns and bad, to me it was important to make this distinction.
By the way Dan, thanks for making a point that I have long made. Criminals do not care about the law.
Neil

Neil,

Media, schmedia! They actually know very little. Believe what you will. I'll not try to convince you one way or another. I don't know what you base your opinion on but I base what I say from actually being there. It's really quite easy to obtain just about ANY type of fully auto firearm in that neck of the woods. I owned (past tense for all you police types out there) a couple of "bushmasters" both the 10 and 12, while I was there.

The fully auto pistol is actually a favorite with certain "groups". Besides the obvious attraction, it's ability to be concealed is another very popular feature.

Your right about not being able to just walk up and purchase one, but then, thats not how things are done down there either. Any half @$$'d street hustler down there can hook you up in a VERY short time........ it's a shame indeed when the government wants to take YOUR firarms away but can do very little to keep them away from the really dangerous buttheads. Ahhh, the games we all play huh?!

Train hard, Play hard, Live easy
Dan P. - Mongo

Niadh
11-21-2000, 08:15 PM
Apparently My disdain for the media was not clear enough. Let me make it clearer.
"..bubble headed bleach blonde comes on at five, she can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye..." is not quite accurate enough.

Also the point I was originally making was not that it is impossible to aquire illegal weapons, or even fully auto weapons, which, if you wish to jump through the hoops, CAN be aquired legally.
I was simply jumping on a statement that I see way to often, and trying to clarify a percieved misconception. How many people that believe the media, politicans, etc. would have know the difference between automatic, I.E. ILLEGAL, and semi-automatic, ie a design that was begun with the Mauser in 189? and is not yet illegal. Especially in Florida with its relatively recent and ground breaking CC laws. Granted the gattlin gun was developed earlier, but they are a little cumbersome.
Sorry, gues that wasn' to clear. If you figure out what I meant, good job.
Neil

REK
11-22-2000, 07:57 AM
crystalwizard wrote:
REK wrote:
If you want to be good at fighting -- fight a lot. If you survive you will be good.

He who laughs and runs away.....lives to fight another day.

Uh, yeah. But I didn't get the sense that was the level of evolution in which this thread was based....

Guest5678
11-22-2000, 08:05 AM
Neil,

I think I now understand your point. Media would rarely know the difference between semi and fully auto? Many times they report a weapon as auto when it is actually semi-auto. You know, I'm at a point where I only listen to the news of the event itself and take their details with a grain of salt, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, to get back on topic, Aikido was never intended to teach you how to fight, but rather, how to find peace. If not peace, then at least compassion for the idiot thats attacking you. One should not forget though that there are also different levels of compassion........

I'll just bet the guy that started this thread has also tried using the handle of a screwdriver as a hammer. Wrong tool for the job........

Dan P. - Mongo

Magma
11-22-2000, 10:57 AM
Perhaps it is the head-up awareness of our surroundings that aikido instills in its students, the realization of potential threats and possible escapes (physical, emotional, or psychological), that separates us from practitioners of other styles. Maybe that is why we see far more shades than just:
white: no fight
black: let's get it on

Really, reading some BJJ/NHB posts, you'd think that the escalation of agression went something like: 1) a cross-wise look across the bar, 2) two guys locked up on the floor in groundwork-fest. It's like one guy says to the other, "You wanna fight?", and upon acceptance, the first gets down into a grappling position and awaits the other to join him. There is this mindless acceptance that there will be a "fight," which is why I don't think that NHB have much to do with real life self-defense.

When those oxen-brutes step into that octagon, it is for nothing else but a fight. They aren't there to exchange recipes, nor is there the myriad of other shades that might color such a meeting on the street: perceived threat, bystanders, weapons, oxen-brutish friends changing the odds, early withdrawal, multiple exits, legal questions, etc. That is why, in those matches, there is the flip of a light switch from, "Let's meet the combatants," to, "Let's get it on."

That isn't what my aikido trains me for. I have often thought of my aikido as an "attack" of the attack. Like tae sabaki with bokken. The kiai of my strike sounds in the same moment as my opponent's. There is no action, reaction. In the words of O'sensei:

If you wish to weaken
The enemy's sword,
Move first, fly in and cut!

Which is not an unwarranted, surprise attack at all, in my mind. Not to over-analyze that doka, but I cannot weaken the enemy's sword if it isn't already drawn. Seeing his intention to attack we make a pre-emtive strike... or exit... or statement... or phone call... or change in posture... or whatever. Unfortunately, what aikido gives a martial artist really must be experienced to be understood... and must continue to be experienced for continued understanding to develop.

Maybe the BJJ/NHB post-ers are happy going from "zero to Full-On-Brawl" in 2 seconds flat, but for me to be there means that I have failed as an aikidoka (not to mention a martial artist, but then, they have failed in that, too). I have failed to notice a potentially bad situation. If confronted in that situation, I have failed to deflect the other persons energy sufficiently to avoid physical escalation. And if it becomes physical and I get taken to the ground, then I have failed to physically turn his energy enough to allow for safe resolution of the situation. (Notice, these are descending circles of awareness, from the highest "eye of the samurai" to the lowest, most base physical extraction... something to think about there, I think). So, if a BJJ gets me to the ground, I have failed at least THREE times as an aikidoka and martial artist.

And who knows if aikido would work on the ground. Maybe IT would, and maybe mine would not. But I can tell you this, in that situation I would still be using the principles that aikido has given me. In other words, I might not be doing "aikido" on the ground, but you can bet it's going to be "aiki-" something. Mind and body working as one to get the best result from the least effort. It might be "aiki-get-my-arse-out-of-a-jam-do," or "aiki-call-for-help-do," but my aikido would still be assisting me.

I can tell you this for sure, no self-respecting aikidoka of any enlightenment at all is going to indulge in "aiki-start-a-fight-to-prove-my-skills-do." And if you do that, then please don't say that you practice aikido. You don't. You practice "thug-do."

End of sermon.

Mike Collins
11-22-2000, 11:34 AM
Martial artists are a decent bunch.

It never crosses the mind that many (virtually all of them that I saw in my younger days in crappy bars) fights start with someone "copping a Sunday" on someone else. More often than you'd expect, that is the snd of things, one guy struts away, one wakes up in a minute or two, and goes home cause he's just been beat up and suddenly realizes he's really drunk.

Sometimes the one getting Sunday'd gets wind of the intent and cops a Sunday of his own, or at least engages an opponent who is hoping to get this over quick, so he can get back to his beer, his toothless girlfriend and his buddies and tell the latest epic of his many conquests.

With a relatively few exceptions, fights start cause someone has crossed the line over to stupidity. Usually this is the result of acute alcohol/stupidity potion abuse.

I quit drinking 15 years ago, and in all of that time, the only time I've had any need for martial ability was when some DRUNK came into my home.

I guess the point is, No- Aikido probably doesn't work in a fight. If I'm stupid enough to get into a fight willingly, I'll probably be too stupid to apply any of the principles in which I've trained. Aikido does work quite well in many situations where someone else wants to fight, and I let them change their minds before it gets physical. Aikido served me quite well when it was necessary to restrain someone from hurting me or my family.

Aikido is way more about changing the way you live than making me a dumass fighting machine. Doing what needs doing, whatever that may be, in the moment, is way more desirable to me than learning how to kick some butt. Where would I use that skill?

Niadh
11-22-2000, 03:46 PM
Is THAT why all my screwdrivers have nail dents in the handles?!?!?!?!?!?
Neil

Richard Harnack
11-27-2000, 10:01 AM
Niadh wrote:
Richard,
Sorry, this is a pet peeve here. Just a clarification. Real fights now do not involve automatic pistols. If you are in the states, the gun laws of 1968 ( I think that is the right one) essentially elimated AUTOMATIC weapons from the hands of people, (i.e not the govt.) You may indeed be refering to SEMI-automatic pistols. I know this may seem a small point, but it is sort of like calling a tanto a katana, or a twin turbopro plane, a jet.
Thanks for the rant.
Neil

Neil -
In my youth (1950's - 1960') the pistols were zip guns, later "saturday night specials". When I was a probation officer in Los Angeles County in the early seventies, the "saturday night special" became dominant and began to shift to heavier artillery.

Actually, as I grew up, the name for automatics became machine pistols. Let us simply declare a truce on terminology and say "rapid fire".

And, no, the last time I looked, the tanto, wakizashi, katana and dai-katana were all different lengths.

Niadh
11-27-2000, 05:02 PM
Well Richard,
Actually the definition of zip guns are...
sorry, couldn't resist. It is not so much a lack of correct terminology by those knowledgeable about firearms that bothers me, unless of courese it perpetuates the media image. Now I could go off on the " saturday night specials" which is alos a media driven image, much the same as "junk guns" in thsi day & age.
Truce recognized.
Neil

joeysola
11-29-2000, 09:46 AM
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question. How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight? I understand Aikido has good defenses against weapons and I respect that, however so do many other martial arts, it is not unique to Aikido. I want to know how Aikido works in a specific senario, one on one, no weapons. If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security. I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face? Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer. And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.

joeysola
11-29-2000, 09:48 AM
Sorry about the grammar mistakes, I was in a hurry.

ian
11-29-2000, 10:24 AM
Hi Joeysola,

I will try to reply in as direct way as possible:

1. Preparation for an unavoidable fight:
Aikido (should) teach you necessary skills for identifying aggresive behaviour and moving BEFORE a strike is initiated. e.g. Ueshiba once lept/ran across the room at someone who lifted their arms up in defence, which allowed him to execute ikkyo
2. Someone on top of you punching at your face:
Aikido (should) be teaching you that this is not the position you ever want to get in to; by way of fight avoidance & body movement. Aikido (should) be teaching you to limit the potential for other people to find weaknesses in your stance and techniques so you cannot be thrown or struck in potentially dangerous areas.
If you are in this position, aikido works with hip movement, unbalancing (think of kokyu ho) and wrist locks, all of which can be employed to get rid of an attacker (as I have used myself).
3. Combinations:
Combinations are hard to fight from whatever martial art (or sport) you practise. As mentioned in 1 - a major concept of aikido is to get in first. Another aspect is irimi (entering) where you get close enough (either in front or behind your partner) to avoid damaging techniques, and give you the opportunity to do technique. Unlike sports, Aikido is not about scoring points from punches. Glancing punches are unavoidable whatever martial art you practise. Aikido, being a martial art, trains you to protect your life. It derives from many potentially lethal (or at least bone breaking) techniques which were used to kill and disable, not to show off.

I have used aikido both in multiple attack and one on one real situations and have absolutely no doubt of its use as a self defence. In these case I did suffer hits from my opponents which caused bruises (boo hoo), however I put my opponents in a position where I could have killed or broken their wrists/arms (though of course I did not).

Ueshiba was regularly challenged by martial artists in the top of their field, and defeated them (And at one time crippled a judo person so he could never train again - which I'm sure he regretted). He also gained a prestigous martial arts award from the Japanese government, which only a handful of people have ever got. Admittedly he had himself trained in around 30 different martial arts, and I always encourage people who do aikido to train in is as many other things as they can - however, aikido is the framework of body movement and the philosophy in which all my training fits in to.

Aikido takes much longer to train in than most other martial arts because it is not about the techniques that you see, it is about subtleties of body movement and aspects of the technique that you don't fully understand until many years of training (and I have only been doing it for 12 years).

I write this, not so much for you, but for anyone who is interested in long term diligent training, and may be discouraged by your criticisms. I am glad you raised these points because it helps us to make sure that our martial art is based in reality and highlights the point that during training we must train as if our uke has the ability ot kill us. If aikido doesn't hit the spot for you right now, follow your own path. You have one of the few qualities lacking in many martial artisits and which was prized by Ueshiba,

sincerity.
:ai:

[Edited by ian on November 29, 2000 at 09:27am]

crystalwizard
11-29-2000, 01:30 PM
joeysola wrote:

How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight?

What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face?
Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one?


first, Aikido allows you to build a set of reflexs that are very good at getting you out of the way of whatever attack is coming at you. Meaning in a lot of cases you aren't going to be ON the ground with someone sitting on top of you punching you and quite likely at the same time you were moving out of the way of the attacker who tried to put you on the ground, you put THEM on the ground and away from you.

That's general

Second in answer to your intense need to know exactly how it's going to work in any given situation the answer is that totaly depends on the people in the situation. Everyone's reflexs are different. You're not trying to learn a set of moves that you remember how to do for a specific situation, you're programing your body to react. What you do if someone throws a punch at your face is totaly different that what I will do.

What I suggest you do is go to a dojo and join the classes. For a couple years. and dont complaine that karate would be much faster either. Both aikido and karate might be martial arts but comparing how fast you'll move forward in one to how fast you'll move forward in the other is a lot like saying you can learn to swim in 3 lessons so you should be able to learn how to do olympic diving in 3 lessons too.

you started the thread by stating that it didn't work at all. It however does. You based your observations on a friend who doesn't seem that experienced and on watching a couple classes. You haven't based them on any real experience of your own. But since you seem to be still interested...this thread has been going on for quite a while now and you're still reading it...I really think you'd do yourself a bigger favor to go get out on the mat, practice with people, ask your what ifs of some experienced people and maybe even try some of the moves you dont think Aikido will work against on some of the more experienced people and move forward from there.

Might also go to the aikido faq site and read through some of the experiences from people discussing exactly how their aikido did work in an irl situation as well.

Mike Collins
11-29-2000, 06:52 PM
You're probably right, it doesn't work in a fight.

Don't fight. Don't do Aikido if you insist on fighting, they're not compatible.

Don't argue whether or not it works. It's a huge waste of time.

Go fight if you want to fight well, there is no other way to get good at fighting.

I've used Aikido principles in self defense, all of the fighting stuff is irrelevant beyond that.

sceptoor
11-30-2000, 12:43 PM
joeysola wrote:
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question. How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight? I understand Aikido has good defenses against weapons and I respect that, however so do many other martial arts, it is not unique to Aikido. I want to know how Aikido works in a specific senario, one on one, no weapons. If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security. I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face? Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer. And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.

JoeySola-
Wow, this was a long thread. You've obviously touched a nerve somewhere. You've asked a genuine and relevent question, but you have also insulted the integrity and legitimacy of Aikido at the same time. I am not an instructor of Aikido, nor am I even "intermediately" ranked, but it doesn't take a genius to know that Aikido IS EXTREMELY effective in defending your life. It is also a martial art of LIFE AND PEACE, in that your goal is to AVOID opposition by stepping out of the line of attack and redirecting it, instead of "opposing" with more force and strength, since that ultimately just leads to hurting yourself. More so, it is about blending with your attacker in order to avoid harm to EITHER person.
I decided to train in Aikido because of those reasons. I read and learned as much about it as I could, and chose to train in Aikido because it simply makes more sense to "avoid the fight" and neutralize it rather than "engage in fighting" in the first place. It has been a life changing experience for me to say the least.

When people ask me what Aikido is, I have to point them to this website. The only thing this site is missing is a dojo in which to experience training. You say that Aikido is impractical, I say it's the only one that IS practical. Many people in this thread have explained a lot to you about the practicalities of Aikido and I cannot possibly say it better myself. If you want to join a MA where trophies are your goal and competing in tournaments is your passion, Aikido is not for you, but if you want to better yourself and follow a path that leads to life, then Aikido is for you. Grappling and submission fighting is great one on one, and Karate, Tang Su Do, Tae Kwon Do, are all practical self defense, and yes, other martial arts have defense techniques against weapons, but they are self defense through opposition, and thus there will always be a "winner" and a "loser". Not true in Aikido. You can have two really high ranked opponents, and let's just say they are both ranked the same, but the biggest, tallest and/or strongest of two opponents ALWAYS has the advantage and someone is going to win or lose. Again, not true in Aikido.

How does Aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight?? That's the whole purpose of Aikido. Aikido cannot be performed without first being attacked. The stronger the attack, the easier it is for the Aikidoist to neutralize the attack.

This is all basic and general, and if you wish to learn more, I suggest you visit your local dojo and participate in a class.

Nick P.
11-30-2000, 02:47 PM
Ok, time to put up or...

Go to a few classes (for a few years), and if it isn't the most fun you have ever had, and making some of the closest friends you'll ever make, and learn a huge amount about yourself, as well as become far more comfortable with yourself... hey, I wonder how many of those NHB fighters have/are all those things?

tarik
11-30-2000, 03:17 PM
joeysola wrote:
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question.

This is not intended to dance around the question, but you may perceive it as such.

How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight?

I've been in plenty of fights, but I don't believe in the unavoidable fight. Aikido is as much about learning HOW to avoid a fight as it is about how to handle a fight once it begins.

Case in point: I (stupidly) allowed someone to kick me in the back and the fight he desired still did not materialize because I had decided and that I would not fight in this situation. He gave up... if he had continued to attack I certainly would have had to defend myself, but he couldn't cope with my refusal to respond to that point. He COULDN'T attack me to my face, and while it was foolish of me to turn my back on him and let him knock me down, he still couldn't handle it when I got up, picked up my things, and still refused to strike him. He wouldn't attack me again.

If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security.

If you are using UFC as an example of a real fight, then you are easily as delusional. UFC is really all about entertainment.

I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face?

There are many responses. Kokyu-dosa. Apply kuzushi (balance breaking). Yeah, most people don't practice from this position in Aikido, but when I occasional have cross trained in BJJ or Judo, I've found that the principles (and pins) I've learned in Aikido have taken me a LONG way when moving on the ground.

Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes.

A combination is simply multiple opportunities for me to apply kuzushi (balance breaking). If I get hit a few times before that, so what? Once kuzushi has been applied with success, the rest of a combination is useless.

The long study for me in Aikido has been learning how to properly apply that kuzushi and all the other issues such as zanshin (total, continual awareness), ma-ai (distance management), posture, and much more are all about getting to that point.

how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer.

Aikido matches up fine one on one.

And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.

So have they happened to you? They have to me when I was young and stupid, but frankly not at all since then.

Tarik

Mike Collins
11-30-2000, 03:28 PM
Badda Boom, Badda Bing
It's a Beautiful Thing!!

Thank You Tarik

What he said!!

les paul
11-30-2000, 07:22 PM
joeysola wrote:
I have been watching all of the replys to this thread and it seems as if most of the replys dance around my question. How does aikido prepare you for an unavoidable fight? I understand Aikido has good defenses against weapons and I respect that, however so do many other martial arts, it is not unique to Aikido. I want to know how Aikido works in a specific senario, one on one, no weapons. If you just ignore the UFC's and look at them to see how Aikido is very limited then you are dilusional and have a suffer from a false sense of security. I will be more specific, What do you do if some one is itting on top of you and is punching at your face? Or what if you have to deal with someone who actual knows how to use combinations in their strikes. Some of you have said that Aikido works very well against multiple attackers, how is that if aikido cannot match up one on one? I am hoping someone can give me a straight answer. And please don't say that these situations would never happen, they do.


Joeysola

Give it up. Ok your skeptical that it will work. Fine!

joeysola
12-01-2000, 08:50 AM
Hey guys and gals this guy Suru started up a similar thread and he has a background in Aikido. It is interesting stuff check it out.

sue i.
12-11-2000, 01:24 PM
Hi there, I am dubious about the true intention for the start of this thread. Are you really curious about Aikido or just want to tell us all off? I think people who write these things just want to anger up our blood. I have never been in a street fight and never intend to. I do know someone who has had to use his Aikido skills and done so sucessfully(once to thwart some men tring to kidnap his children). But what I do occasionally do is slip on ice or fall down a few stairs. It's the ukemi and the centering that will save your butt in a "real life" situation.

crystalwizard
12-11-2000, 01:33 PM
joeysola wrote:
Hey guys and gals this guy Suru started up a similar thread and he has a background in Aikido. It is interesting stuff check it out.

Yes and you'll notice that both in his thread and in yours the sttement that aikido doesn't work in an irl situation has been refuted, rather soundly.

What else I've noticed is that you are either completely ignoreing everything that everyone has said or that you dont actualy care about what kind of responses you'll get. It's begining to look like you either started this thread just to get people to post irl situations for your reading enjoyment or else you are one of those people who feel the world revolves around their opinion and who only accept opinions from others as long as those opinions match their own.

Aikilove
12-12-2000, 09:43 AM
Just a question joysola: Do you after 60 and some posts start to grip that Aikido actually works in real life situation (and I don't mean UFC) or do you think all the examples nice people chare are fake? Otherwise I can't see why you still have doubts, that is you're real intention was to read these stories for your own satisfaction. Think about that.

Jakob B

joeysola
12-12-2000, 11:25 AM
First off, I am a very nice guy. Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations. All martial arts have their strengths and weaknesses, but the majority of people who have answered this thread seem to not be able to accept that fact and still think that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, no one has been able to step back and really take a look at how aikido is practiced and it's relationship to real altercations. Any serious critisicism by me has led to personal attacks and that is hilarious, none of you know me. I just wanted to shake things up a bit, but everyone got all defensive, boo hoo. We are talking about martial arts here, they are not that important, I did not mean to offend all of you, I never tried to insult any of you. Relax everybody. Peace.

ian
12-12-2000, 11:47 AM
You may be right, in that strong objections often result from deep set insecurities.

However I am completely obsessed with Aikido ;), and although it is not an 'ultimate martial art' (whatever that is), it definately offers ME things I have never found in any other martial art (though admittedly I've only done Karate, Ju Jitsu, Tang Soo do and Judo in addition to aikido).

Ian

P.S. can we leave this discussion thread alone now? it seems to have gotten us nowhere.

Happy training to whatever people choose

Matt Banks
12-12-2000, 12:18 PM
Quote:
''I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos.
Dear Joeylsa

The Aikido practitioners were
slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage.''

Lets get something straight I have all the ufc matcheson tape up to ufc16. I can tell you there has never been a proper aikidoka who has fought in that grappling orientated compettion and email SEG the company that runs the show the one person you speak about did it as his 4th martial art he claimed to have trained in 6, now I think you get the picture seeing as his main art was muay tai which I think conflicts with Aiki tecniques alot. He according to seg he had proberly only done it for about a few months. I presume you use the Ufc as anexample of a real fight as there arent any gloves, well then your a fool. Look I come from a family of police and can tell you from national surveys that most attacks/fights etc occur 2+ v 1 ok, so when your locked up to one enemy his other 4 mates are stabbing you in the back. What about weapons we deal with them in Aiki including live bladed weapons, unlike in most grappling including GJJ I know Ive done it. In aiki we constantly deal with multiple attacks live weapons awareness etc etc all that are needed in a real fight not in the paded ring of the ufc 1v1 with a time limit

thanks Matt Banks

Mike Collins
12-12-2000, 12:51 PM
What in the world is an "Ultimate Martial Art"? the concept is stupid.

I have met some fairly ultimate martial artists, but they were individuals. They were from more than Aikido backgrounds.

An ultimate martial art is like an ultimate canvas and paint set. They mean just about nothing till someone picks them up and expresses themselves with them.

Joeysola, best of luck. Move on, grow, improve.

Or don't, it is all good with me.

Kevin73
12-12-2000, 12:54 PM
Just thought I would toss this into the pot. I read an article from Rickson Gracie (I think). Anyways, he was talking about the best self-defense in America is to buy a gun. He said that in Brazil GJJ is the best because fighting is still "honorable". Both sides will gather around in a circle and watch the two people fight it out.
He said in America that doesn't happen, the other friends will jump in and he admitted that going to the ground is not a good idea and something else is needed.

Like alot of people have said, all arts have strengths and weaknesses. What many people fail to do though is look at different attacks and find viable solutions to those using the principles and concepts in their art. Then what we get is a "jack of all trades and an ace of nothing", they study lots of different arts for a short time and never understand the deeper principles behind it.

Yes, aikido has "weaknesses" but by understanding those you can overcome them and negate them when you put in the time to understanding the art as a whole. But, to make a blanket statement that it does not work is just as erroneous as saying that aikido is the best there is in martial arts

torokun
12-12-2000, 01:36 PM
joeysola wrote:
...no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations. All martial arts have their strengths and weaknesses...

I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion... I believe that aikido promotes the idea that everything will be revealed if you just train hard. This IMHO, is simply not true. There are some bad aikido teachers. If you manage to get one, you can't help but learn crappy aikido no matter how much you train...

As to strengths and weaknesses, of course there are many weaknesses in aikido. Now in the dojos I've trained at, here are the major weaknesses as I see them:

1. There is no practice of complex attacks with vigor -- for example, one might attack with their weight over the back foot, left foot forward, grabbing uke's wrist with the right hand... In another instance, he might hook his front foot behind uke's front foot, or just step on it at the same time. This sort of thing, of course, is never practiced. How about a strike from the head or shoulder at the same time as a knee butt? These are common things that happen in chinese arts, but aikidoka never practice these things.

2. Footwork. Footwork is taught for irimi and tenkan, but after the entrance, it's usually just whatever works. I know that usually footwork must be adjusted to fit the situation, but without a good _system_ for footwork, the average aikidoka can not take advantage of his full range of rotation.

3. Breathing. Aikido books talk a lot about hara and tanden, but that's about it. There are no specific exercises for developing proper breathing or internal power. Some might say that this can be done simply through practice, but I thoroughly disagree. There are great ways to develop these things, but they are not taught in aikido...

4. Body connection. The internal connection of the body through the fascia, etc. can begin to develop through aikido practice, but I don't believe that many of the teachers really understand what's going on internally in this regard, because aikido usually just doesn't teach it. I believe that most _high_ level aikidoka have some degree of internal connection going, but usually not a really thorough understanding of it. This is why great aikidoka can feel really good one day, and lousy the next -- they don't really know how to turn on the connection inside their body at will... On this same note, since strikes are not practiced separately, aikidoka cannot usually channel their power through their whole body very well, to produce a powerful strike. They don't know how to store energy in the spine, legs, or arms, and release it...

Now, I love aikido for a lot of reasons, but I also believe that it does lack these things... Most other martial arts do too! But as O-Sensei suggested adding to the art, while maintaining its principles, I'm sure that some people who've learned these things will bring them to their aikido at some point... :)

chrisinbrasil
12-12-2000, 02:06 PM
Hi,
Torokun. I enjoyed your post.

#1. Superb, insightful, and though you´ll get a rash of people replying with hurt feelings, true.

#2. Ditto, after the sequence starts with initial footwork, you´ll be hardpressed to find free continuance. It would basically become a free-for-all because after the conflict begins, range(maai) is VERY difficult to maintain.

#3. Very important, generally overlooked.

#4. Started getting a little out of my league with internal power and stuff.

And as for you Mr. Joeysola, is this what you were looking for? I think that many people recognize weakness in whatever art they practice but chastizing people and saying the don´t pisses some people off. I´ve read all the posts and I didn´t feel that ANYONE made it sound like Aikido was what you feebily described as the "Ultimate Martial art". IMO

crystalwizard
12-12-2000, 03:03 PM
I see you're still ignoring the forum rules to sign your posts with your real name. figures.

joeysola wrote:
Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations.


Oh for heavens sake and here I took you at your original word and assumed you were actualy intersted in finding out if it DOES work in an IRL situation, not just trolling to try to get someone to say 'Gasp! oh dear! I just realized...if a mac truck comes at me I can't stop it with Ki!!' of course it has limitations..so does anything else you can mention. So do all the people that practice whatever it is they practice.


but the majority of people who have answered this thread seem to not be able to accept that fact and still think that Aikido is the ultimate martial art


Actualy, most of the answers were pointed at trying to answer the accusation you made with the subject line and your first post. that Aikido doesn't work AT ALL in a fight. any fight. in any situation. There is no ultimate martial art. I'm curious what you believe is the ultimate martial art, if you are really good at it and if you would be willing to attack someone like say..Toehei Sensei with it.


no one has been able to step back and really take a look at how aikido is practiced and it's relationship to real altercations.

On the contrary, a large number of people have explained in detail how effective it is in real altercations. You have completely ignored all such comments. Care to explaine why? or do you think that everyone that has posted anything of the sort has made it all up and is lieing?


Any serious critisicism by me has led to personal attacks and that is hilarious, none of you know me. I just wanted to shake things up a bit, but everyone got all defensive, boo hoo.


Personal attacks on you didn't start untill you posted your little 'oooo look at this other thread' and I responded. If you feel that all the rest were personal attacks on you....that's your own head trip. Perhaps we all should have just ignored your question at the start realizing you werent' actualy intersted in information only in diseminating your own side of things. That's fine...but dont wrap it up in the pretense of asking a question and seeking for knowledge.


We are talking about martial arts here, they are not that important, I did not mean to offend all of you, I never tried to insult any of you. Relax everybody. Peace.

hmmmm let's see...I spend...5 days a week, 1.5 to 2 hours a class training..I'm pretty sure a lot of other people do more. no i guess it's not important to me at all or anyone else.
I bothered to try to answer what I thought was a serious question from someone who had a serious interset and now find out he was only out to make fun of everyone..nope...doens't matter at all. not important.
I've watched you basicaly call anyone that disagreed with your statements that Aikido doesn't work in real life situations liars...suppose that shouldn't matter.

i'm not offended...just disgusted that I bothered at all.
It did worry me that you seemed to feel based on a TV show and youre limited experience with someone who isn't very experienced that you might go challenge an Aikido practiioner (Aikidoka in case you dont know) who DOES know what they're doing and get the ground wiped up with yourself...but I no longer care about that either.

[Edited by crystalwizard on December 12, 2000 at 02:24pm]

torokun
12-12-2000, 03:53 PM
I feel that I must amend my previous post with the things I left unsaid. I left them unsaid because I thought it had been shown clearly here in everyone's posts...

Aikido is very effective in certain situations, and it's very good at cultivating a calm state of mind and spirit that helps people greatly when they actually get in a real fight.

Although I've never been in a fight since I started practicing martial arts, I have had a lot of friends who do other things (TKD, etc), who have wanted to spar with me, or just mess around... I can tell you this -- I have never been very comfortable with it, because aikido techniques don't just leave bruises, they break bones. They rip tendons and ligaments and displace joints. They slam people to the ground, where they may land on their head or at least bounce it hard on the concrete...

A couple of times I've messed around with these guys, and I kept my distance, and avoided strikes, but as soon as I had a chance, I moved in like a tank and had them. At that point, I usually stopped, because if I applied a good technique, they would have resisted it and broken something... I'm sure that in many real confrontations, the same thing would happen (although I would be forced to follow through), and that means that aikido is effective. At least as effective as TKD, karate, or many other arts.

A lot of successes have been posted about here... I believe that reading this thread now should be enough to convince anyone that although there may be limitations or things lacking in aikido, it is effective in "real fights". Not always perfect, not always victorious, but quite effective.

Magma
12-12-2000, 04:10 PM
Torokun, I don't know where you practice your aikido or where you got the ideas you express above, but I must strongly disagree with you.
torokun wrote:
1. There is no practice of complex attacks with vigor -- for example, one might attack with their weight over the back foot, left foot forward, grabbing uke's wrist with the right hand....These are common things that happen in chinese arts, but aikidoka never practice these things.

What I have quoted above points to a focus that you have put on the techniques you are learning, rather than the budo principles you are expressing. For instance, let's say I'm one of these sheltered aikidoka you are talking about who only ever see the most basic attacks: I only ever practice against a straight, traditional step and punch; and then in the street I face someone coming with a more modern street type attack (feet reversed from what I'm used to - left forward with right hand striking, hip turn, etc.) If I get off the line of attack, turn that energy, steal balance, lead, and finish centered and safe, have I done aikido? Sure, you can't nicely categorize it in terms of attack and responding technique ("leading cross-punch kokyunage"), but the aiki principles were there, and I WAS still doing aikido.

The bottom line on this one is if you don't see enough realism or variation in your attacks, make up your mind that you will train on these things, or ask about these things. But give up the attachment and dependence on "technique."

2. Footwork. Footwork is taught for irimi and tenkan, but after the entrance, it's usually just whatever works. I know that usually footwork must be adjusted to fit the situation, but without a good _system_ for footwork, the average aikidoka can not take advantage of his full range of rotation.

There is more footwork-WORK done in aikido than in other arts that I have seen or trained in. From tae-sabaki to full technique walk throughs, the teaching is there. Again, I do not know where you train or who you watch in order to see techniques taught as "Do this tae-sabaki, get to this point, and then just do whatever works from here." Sensei that I have been fortunate to see teach techniques to completion, from start to finish. Aikido is an art that REQUIRES you to be centered at all times. There is simply no way to accomplish strong technique without being centered, and no way to stay centered without proper footwork.

The bottom line on this one is that I would suspect that you haven't been in aikido long enough to grasp the scope or genius of its footwork "system" as you call it. Regardless of your time spent training, I would recommend Ikeda Sensei's tape on Iriminage, as it breaks down footwork into manageable tools that can be put together in more complex arrangements later.


3. Breathing. Aikido books talk a lot about hara and tanden, but that's about it. There are no specific exercises for developing proper breathing or internal power. Some might say that this can be done simply through practice, but I thoroughly disagree. There are great ways to develop these things, but they are not taught in aikido...


May I submit that the reason that you haven't found the instruction on breathing that you seek is specifically because you are looking in books? The learning is in the doing, not in the reading-about-someone-else-doing. At my dojo and others that I have visited, there is a strong emphasis put on breathing and the development thereof. From drills of sounding out abdomen-focusing syllables ("yee" and "toh"), to breath control drills much like Zen meditation with wood blocks, to the ukemi we perform during our warmup (focusing on breathing out); and these are just what comes to me off the top of my head.

Again, the bottom line for this one is it doesn't sound like you're getting the instruction that you need. ALL of aikido is breath training. What other art even talks about breathing beyond, "Remember to breath." Saying that aikido doesn't work on breathing is like sitting in the very first car that came with a radio and saying, "What are you talking about?! This car doesn't have a radio! I don't hear a thing!" Which is about the time your sensei leans over and turns the radio on for you.


4. Body connection. The internal connection of the body through the fascia, etc. can begin to develop through aikido practice, but I don't believe that many of the teachers really understand what's going on internally in this regard, because aikido usually just doesn't teach it. I believe that most _high_ level aikidoka have some degree of internal connection going, but usually not a really thorough understanding of it.... On this same note, since strikes are not practiced separately, aikidoka cannot usually channel their power through their whole body very well, to produce a powerful strike. They don't know how to store energy in the spine, legs, or arms, and release it...


I guess what really gets me is that you say that "aikido doesn't teach this or that." Aikido doesn't teach; people do. Now, you started your post well enough by saying that a crappy teacher leads to crappy students (paraphrasing). A teacher that doesn't understand centeredness or connection with uke isn't a person you should be learning from, nor should you use that person as an example of the art. EVERY art is going to have good and bad teachers. I have seen and trained under/with sensei who have evident and manifest knowledge of these concepts and their physical expression.

And as for strikes being practiced separately... they are. I've been in classes of suburi where that is all we do with maybe one technique the whole night.

Bottom line: Aikido is what it is. Any particular person's aikido is going to be something short of that ideal and not be truly representative of the art as a whole. Now go back and read those two sentences and substitute your favorite scapegoat martial art for "aikido." ANY martial art at its pinnacle is the same as all others: a system for the refinement of character, a vehicle for self-improvement, and a method of self-defense.

It is ultimately up to the student to search out the best teacher for his/her path. This is as much a part of the path as the learning of technique. If you are truly not getting proper instruction, then find another dojo where you will.

Does aikido have weaknesses? Hmm, let me instead ask, "does my aikido have weaknesses?" I answer yes. And so, I train more.

-Tim

giriasis
12-12-2000, 04:10 PM
Stop playing games Joeysola. If you make a post stating that Aikido is not effective at all in a real fight, then the obvious responses from dedicated long term practitioners will of course be it is effective.

If you truely were interested in learning something, then you simply would have asked, "From your experiences with Aikido, what do you find as it's weaknesses?"

An honest question like that would have gotten you many good decent responses.

We don't bury our heads in the sand and neither should you. Maybe you should admit that Aikido IS EFFECTIVE in many situations.

later,
Anne Marie Giri

crystalwizard
12-12-2000, 04:24 PM
I invite you Joey, in case you missed it, to go read, carefuly, the forum thread titled arrogance. (this is assuming you dont assume the title means something it doesn't and refuse to read it based on that).

[Edited by crystalwizard on December 12, 2000 at 03:34pm]

crystalwizard
12-12-2000, 04:33 PM
joeysola wrote:
I just wanted to shake things up a bit

You actualy stated your only reason for ever posting here. I vote we all do something else and totaly ignore him now.

torokun
12-12-2000, 05:15 PM
Magma: First I'd like to say -- great post. I appreciate being able to talk about these things reasonably... :) Thanks for your opinions. I'd like to ask you about some of the things you suggest...

Magma wrote:
...let's say... ...have I done aikido? Sure, you can't nicely categorize it in terms of attack and responding technique ("leading cross-punch kokyunage"), but the aiki principles were there, and I WAS still doing aikido.

Yes. That's right, but basically in my post, I was referring to "aikido" as a martial system that in general teaches certain techniques and uses certain methods of training. I do agree that you can handle far more various situations than those that you specifically practice during an aikido class, but why not teach these in class too? Of course, they're not the fundamentals, which i agree must be mastered first, but later, why should teachers not incorporate more various attacks into class instruction?

To answer your questions about where I've trained, I've trained in D.C. a lot with Saotome Sensei and those that teach for him, as well as in Boulder with Ikeda Sensei, and in Baltimore with Chuck Weber Sensei (5 dan), and others. I've been to seminars by these teachers, and sometimes they branch out from these fundamentals into boxing punches, or something like that, but it's not a part of everyday practice. That's all I'm saying.


The bottom line on this one is if you don't see enough realism or variation in your attacks, make up your mind that you will train on these things, or ask about these things.

I think that this is a great suggestion, and I don't think that I'm really hung up on technique per se. This would be my answer to anyone who were to ask me the same question... But when they ask "why don't we do this in class?" I don't have an answer. I've tried to work with people and practice these things during class, but even yudansha don't like it because they think we should practice what the teacher is teaching -- a respectable attitude, but again, I must now go outside of class to practice these things...



The bottom line on this one is that I would suspect that you haven't been in aikido long enough to grasp the scope or genius of its footwork "system" as you call it. Regardless of your time spent training, I would recommend Ikeda Sensei's tape on Iriminage, as it breaks down footwork into manageable tools that can be put together in more complex arrangements later.

OK, I may have over-emphasized this point. I have been taught specific footwork for a number of techniques, including a direct iriminage, some kokyunage, tenchinage, etc. But there are some areas that I've asked about and never gotten a clear answer on, such as the footwork while executing a spinning iriminage, or a spinning kotegaeshi... Maybe it's just that the teachers I mention above never explicitly talked about these things. But why not? You mention Ikeda Sensei's video -- I haven't seen the iriminage one yet, but I would be surprised if it is as you say, since I've never heard of Ikeda Sensei teaching this in class. Why not?


May I submit that the reason that you haven't found the instruction on breathing that you seek is specifically because you are looking in books? The learning is in the doing, not in the reading-about-someone-else-doing.

On this point, I've looked in books and elsewhere, because the teachers I've mentioned don't teach specific methods to develop this in class (or in the seminars and camps I've been to)...

At my dojo and others that I have visited, there is a strong emphasis put on breathing and the development thereof. From drills of sounding out abdomen-focusing syllables ("yee" and "toh"), to breath control drills much like Zen meditation with wood blocks...

This is great, but since I don't know where you train, and I've never seen a dojo practice these things regularly, I'm still convinced that this is not very common in aikido...

I also agree that breathing is very important to aikido, which is why I'm disappointed that Saotome and Ikeda (and their senior teachers) do not teach more about this during class...

I guess what really gets me is that you say that "aikido doesn't teach this or that." Aikido doesn't teach; people do.

Point taken. ;) But what I mean to convey here is my opinion that most aikido dojos do not cover this material in class...

Man, this is a lot to cover... whew... ;)


A teacher that doesn't understand centeredness or connection with uke isn't a person you should be learning from...

True... Although the teachers I've trained with are well respected and prominent in the community...

I wasn't talking about connection with uke here, but rather the internal connection of one person's body by itself... the connection of the hand to the foot, through the whole of the body... and like I said, I think the high level aikidoka do have this to varying degrees, but it's not taught clearly -- Don't you agree that usually teachers say "Extend ki", or "Keep connected here", where they could say "Look, when you twist your arm like this, you feel the connection with your shoulder... This is what we mean by 'connected'...". Maybe your teachers go over these points, but the teachers I've trained with are very ambiguous about it...


And as for strikes being practiced separately... they are. I've been in classes of suburi where that is all we do with maybe one technique the whole night.

You mean open hand strikes? Wow. I've never been in a class like that. Never. Now, I think that's great. :) But I still don't think that this is common in the art.

Let me know what you think... ;)

crystalwizard
12-12-2000, 07:04 PM
torokun wrote:

but even yudansha don't like it because they think we should practice what the teacher is teaching -- a respectable attitude, but again, I must now go outside of class to practice these things...


You should be practicing what the teacher has shown or it becomes far too confusing for those practicing with you. Sorta like if you were in band and the instrutor told the band to play jingle bells but you decided to play rock around the clock because you didn't ever seem to get to play it in band.

Why dont you try talking to your instructor before or after class and asking to specificaly work on one of those techinques that dont seem to be taught during class?

Erik
12-13-2000, 12:00 AM
I must now go outside of class to practice these things...

One size usually doesn't fit all. I've yet to meet an instructor that was good at all things exactly when I wanted them to be good at it (or even just good at all things). Very frustrating at times because they should know what I want and they should be teaching it--dammit!

Ultimately, the project is mine, so if there is a sub-set of something I'm interested in, and can't cajole out of my home dojo, I visit a place that focuses more on what I'm looking for. I have my home dojo, 2 good backups and a number of others that I occasionally visit. I guess I'm lucky to be where I am in that regard.

Magma
12-13-2000, 08:47 AM
torokun wrote:
Magma: First I'd like to say -- great post. I appreciate being able to talk about these things reasonably... :)
I agree. I enjoy educated discussion much more than the "show-the-hair-on-your-chest my-aikido-is-better-than-yours" sort of debates that have ranged so freely here recently.

torokun wrote:Magma wrote:
...let's say... but the aiki principles were there, and I WAS still doing aikido.

Yes. That's right

Wow. Wish I could just stop right there!:D

but basically in my post, I was referring to "aikido" as a martial system that in general teaches certain techniques and uses certain methods of training.

Yes, this is true. I guess, as you pointed out, the focus is on the fundamentals. That maybe if some level of mastery is gained over the principles involved, those principles can be applied to any situation. Though I am in a fortunate (unfortunate?) situation where one night a week of my aikido training is set aside by my sensei as instruction on more "applied" technique than basic technique. While this does bridge over into arts outside of aikido, I still see the principles at work that we work on the rest of the week.

Maybe it's just that the teachers I mention above never explicitly talked about these things. But why not? You mention Ikeda Sensei's video -- I haven't seen the iriminage one yet, but I would be surprised if it is as you say, since I've never heard of Ikeda Sensei teaching this in class. Why not?

That surprises me. I have not had the fortune or chance to train with Ikeda Sensei, so I cannot speak to this. Perhaps someone else who has could volunteer information on how much emphasis Ikeda Sensei (or other prominent Shihan) place on basics? But then, I think that I have hit on something: I'd more fully expect a Shihan's junior instructors to focus on the basics more than the Shihan him/herself. I'd expect the shihan to help me explore the boundaries of what I know of aikido. Still I'm interested in what people have to say about the various Shihans they have seen.

This is great, but since I don't know where you train, and I've never seen a dojo practice these things regularly, I'm still convinced that this is not very common in aikido...

I train in West Michigan, and get to seminars often in Chicago. In fact there are seminars completely devoted to this sort of training. If you are seriously interested, I suggest you check it out.


And as for strikes being practiced separately... they are. I've been in classes of suburi where that is all we do with maybe one technique the whole night.

You mean open hand strikes? Wow. I've never been in a class like that. Never. Now, I think that's great. :) But I still don't think that this is common in the art.

No, it is not common. And yes, those were open hand strikes... and kicks. I do TKD as well, and even I would get tired of a class of JUST hand strikes.

I think we are talking the same language, Torokun. If you are ever in the area, look my dojo up and come train. We'll have fun.:D

Creature_of_the_id
12-13-2000, 09:32 AM
Hi Joey,
I have been following this thread with interest. I like when boats get rocked.

My small point is, you keep refering to aikido within the context of fighting. Aikido doesnt teach us how to fight, so you are right it is not effective in a fight. But it is very effective in not fighting.
Fighting is all about perspective, two forces pushing against each other...
If one of the forces refuses to push back or push in the same direction then their is no fight. One side could have the perseption of a fight while the other the perseption of harmony. no anger no strength required. just movement. So yes, if aikido is attempted to be used to fight then it defeats the whole point of aikido and destroys its effectiveness.
Aikido is not about a series of techniques designed to hurt or damage or whatever, it is about a principle of none resistance. Which is the reason it is often refered to as the art of peace.

as for the person sitting in the aikido punching him in the face... well... emmm... if the principles are being applied then it would NEVER get to that point. but if it did then I guess one of the main points in throwing in aikido is to get my centre below that of the attacker... you cant get much lower than under his butt....


Kev

cbrf4zr2
12-13-2000, 11:12 AM
I've been reading this thread, and finally decided to throw my two (uneducated) cents into that hat.

As far as MA's go, the representation of the art is only as good as the presenter. How effective it is, or isn't, also depends on the "fighters." I'm a lowly 7th Kyu, and to some of you, I will sound rather green, and I will admit that I don't know a lot compared to others on this, but some things I have been taught and learned so far, I think are missing from this post.

#1 How effective do you want to be?
In Aikido, as I'm sure with most (if not all) other arts you can always end your altercation with one strike, or hold. So which one is best? Well, do you want to permanently injure someone? Do you want to kill them? Do you just want them in submission? The answer to each of these questions probably could represent a different art for which one is "the best."

#2 I've heard people say, Aikido not effective for this situation, or that situation. I personally look at Aikido as being effective for more situations than a lot of other arts. There are thousands of moves in Aikido, and I have to make a reference to Isaac Newton with the following, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." With the many techniques available, I would venture to say there is an appropriate and effective move or defense for nearly any non-projectile attack. Whether they work or not takes me right back to Newton. Even with all the possibilities, every Aikido move can be countered.

#3 It's all attitude. Why does Aikido not fare so well in "competition" situations? Because it goes against the very nature of why it was founded. I am fairly confident that you would never find a very high ranking Dan in the Ultimate Fighting Championships, or similar competition. The men, who enter and win these tournaments, train to do that. Aikidoka do not.

#4 Most importantly - speed.
In these tournaments it's all about speed. Whoever has the fastest reactions and reflexes wins. That's all there is to it. If you can land a punch, or strike or other technique on me, before I am able to react, it's game over. I don't care what art you practice, if someone is faster than you and has knowledge of the weaknesses of the human body, be ready to get hurt - or worse.

Before anyone else continues on with what's the best, or most effective MA, I'd like to see the "best" vs. the "best." But that’s something we’ll never see

Well, that's my 2 cents, or dollars considering the length.

Ed Frederick

crystalwizard
12-14-2000, 02:09 AM
you go read the thread concerning Aikido's use in combat situations since there are now several military people and police officers that have posted how EFFECTIVE it is IN REAL LIFE situations...
and also read the posts concerning the individuals behind the UFC and why the UFC is not a representation of REAL LIFE situations.

crystalwizard
12-14-2000, 02:25 AM
you go read the thread concerning Aikido's use in combat situations since there are now several military people and police officers that have posted how EFFECTIVE it is IN REAL LIFE situations...
and also read the posts concerning the individuals behind the UFC and why the UFC is not a representation of REAL LIFE situations.

andrew
12-14-2000, 05:33 AM
torokun wrote:
are some areas that I've asked about and never gotten a clear answer on, such as the footwork while executing a spinning iriminage, or a spinning kotegaeshi... Maybe it's just that the teachers I mention above never explicitly talked about these things. But why not?

clearly -- Don't you agree that usually teachers say "Extend ki", or "Keep connected here", where they could say "Look, when you twist your arm like this, you feel the connection with your shoulder... This is what we mean by 'connected'...". Maybe your teachers go over these points, but the teachers I've trained with are very ambiguous about it...



OK, two things at once...
http://gargas.biomedicale.univ-paris5.fr/eurocal/sncemeng.html
this is a link to a very helpful article by Tiki Shewan, 6th dan. Since nobody will bother reading it because he's in France and we're all so parochial (so am I, I just happen to have a French sensei..) I'll put a relevant point here that he makes near the beginning of the article. I recommend reafing the whole thing... (It's on the subject of teaching movement.)
andrew.

"During the time that it has been my privilege to be working and teaching Aikido and laido, I have been continually inundated with requests to "explain in words" what I was seeking to teach. Two facts became immediately apparent to me :
1) that most people always want explanations for what they do;
2) that these people are under the impression that they will learn more satisfactorily if they have these "explanations".
After some time, I came to the conclusion, while providing "explanations" requested of me, that very few trainees, did, in fact, learn better what they were being taught,when they were given explanations....."

ian
12-14-2000, 05:44 AM
Although this thread is starting to change its subject somewhat, I would agree with Andrew.

Sometimes explanations seem a bit wooley because they are harder to explain in words than actually doing or showing. There is an intimate relationship between uke and nage in any technique, requiring a nage response from everything uke does. Therefore it is only when you start aikido when you are told 'step here', 'step there'. Once you realise that you have to step in the optimal position (which depends on uke), you can then make your technique far more flexible (if you look at pictures of Ueshiba, he has a very varied approach to stepping in).

I found an excellent book called:

T'ai Chi Chuan, the Internal Tradition
(Ron Sieh)

Which is very good at explaining aspects of weight distribution, unbalancing, attitude and sensetivity to uke, and the way technique should be 'open and responsive' and not formal. It doesn't talk about techniques, and is probably better if you've done a few years of aikido (I bought it years ago, but am only realising now how true it is).

Ian

Caio
12-14-2000, 06:30 AM
Hi,

My opinion concerning if Aikido is combat effective or not is that prior to all of this, back in Japan not so long ago, every technique was used to save lifes, or you think that when people challenged O Sensei they would throw sand in his eyes and push him or they would try to kill him? He developed Aikido facing life or death situations and we would't be here discussing this if it wasn't effective. Don't you think?
Also, for the ones that think that Aikido must be practiced with a martial spirit all the times, I do agree with you and I always try to do that, but I also see people practicing Aikido to develop a better relationship with people at work, home, etc. To get in shape, to improve their balance, attitude, to relax, and a lot of other things that Aikido can do for you.
So, when one say that it is not effective, depends on what you want from it.
Who are we to say that one should practice this or that way? Aikido is an art and as in every art each artist develops its own way to perform it.

That is the way I see it,
I hope it helps a little.

Domo Arigato!

Aikilove
12-14-2000, 06:55 AM
crystalwizard wrote:
you go read the thread concerning Aikido's use in combat situations since there are now several military people and police officers that have posted how EFFECTIVE it is IN REAL LIFE situations...
and also read the posts concerning the individuals behind the UFC and why the UFC is not a representation of REAL LIFE situations.

Hi crystalwizard! Which thread is that? I would like to read them.
Thank you.

Jakob B

crystalwizard
12-14-2000, 09:42 AM
err The thread which contains posts from the military people I was primarily refering to is titled 'US army combatives and aikido' but you just replied to that thread Aikilove.



[Edited by crystalwizard on December 14, 2000 at 08:59am]

Aikilove
12-14-2000, 10:56 AM
Oops! I'm sorry! I just found out after I asked you the Q. ;) Well what about the UFC-thread you refered to?

Now I'm of to train 13 Kata and mune dori I believe. :p How did I ever lived before, without :ai::ki::do: training!

Jakob B

Gerardo A Torres
12-15-2000, 03:03 AM
Hello everybody.

I consider Aikido to be very effective in a fight. Take for example multiple attack situations. Most (if not all) real-life encounters include more than one opponent, and Aikido is always practiced with this possibility in mind. For instance, this is one reason why we practice two versions of the same technique (irimi and ura). We also carry in mind the possibility of facing armed attackers, coming from all directions.

On the subject of Aikido’s lack of ground fighting, in the case where an Aikidoka is taken to the ground, some knowledge of grappling is handy. But grappling alone makes the aikidoka “loose the big picture” like one forum member said. Grappling rules out multiple attackers (forgive my ignorance, but I haven’t yet seen somebody grappling/wrestling against two people, especially in one of those “real” UFC fights). It is better for aikidoka (as naive and idealistic as it may sound) to use their Aikido skills and simply not let themselves be taken to the ground.

Which brings us to the confidence problem in Aikido…

Boxers trust their punching, grapplers trust their ground training, TKD people trust their kicking. But so many Aikido practitioners (I notice as I read through the forums) are not confident about their training that it saddens me. Imagine somebody who trains in Aikido for many years, learning how to break people’s balance at the touch (kuzushi), deliver grounded strategic strikes (atemi), develop a strong center (hara), move the body with ease (tai-sabaki), the dynamics of hand movement (te-sabaki), sense and connect with energy flow (ki musubi), use breath power (kokyu), use timing and space (ma-ai), and develop acute awareness (zanshin). If you supposedly developed these skills, then what is one to be insecure about when faced with the possibility of combat? Exactly how is it that these abilities are not combat-effective?

These skills I mentioned above are the basics of Aikido, not ikkyo, nikkyo, sankkyo, etc. These are the skills of the aikidoka, not the ability to catch a fast punch and twist the wrist, definitely not an encyclopedia of empty waza. Of course, if you didn’t concentrate on developing any of that and just went through the mechanics of technique year after year, then it is your training approach that is wrong, not the art itself. I practiced with the wrong attitude for many years, but instead of blaming the art or my teacher, I tracked the problem to my own mindset and changed my training approach. Even the Aikido of master teachers evolves constantly.

I also want to say that a man like O’Sensei could not have founded a deficient Budo system. He and his uchideshi went through great pains and efforts to establish Aikido as a martial art, but somehow some people still feel skeptic about Aikido’s martial art nature and some others think we need to provide proof of its combat effectiveness. There is no need to prove anything, at least in the terms that many other disciplines are put to the test. We have no need for tournaments, cross-martial arts matches, or participate in any of those UFC (in which case, any self-respecting aikidoka would not take part of such entertainment–oriented event). We should train with higher purposes in mind, and in doing so we will grow confident enough to eliminate the anxiety that confuses our minds.

crystalwizard
12-15-2000, 04:58 AM
Aikilove wrote:
Oops! I'm sorry! I just found out after I asked you the Q. ;) Well what about the UFC-thread you refered to?

There's a thread titled arrogance that has quite a few postings concerning the UFC

Nick
12-15-2000, 02:53 PM
Gerardo:

The main reason Aikidoka don't admit their prowess is:

1. Words are worthless.
2. If we should say such a thing, than we may start to believe it.
3. Anyone who says such a thing is usually pretty clueless about budo.

I'm a lot better than I was a year ago, a month ago, even perhaps an hour ago, but to say I was the best budoka around would only make my training slack and make the challenges come rolling in the door, which is (IMO), the main thing to avoid in Aikido...

Nick

Mike Collins
12-15-2000, 03:15 PM
Okay, that's it.

I am the toughest man alive. I can kill with only a glance. Whoever challenges me is in for it. My Aikido is the best in the universe.

Or, perhaps not.

Mike Collins
12-15-2000, 03:16 PM
I'm sorry. My damned evil twin Ikey got to my computer again. The restraints go back on after lunch.

BC
12-15-2000, 04:53 PM
Mikey wrote:
Okay, that's it.

I am the toughest man alive. I can kill with only a glance. Whoever challenges me is in for it. My Aikido is the best in the universe.

Or, perhaps not.

Oh YEAH!!! (much chest puffing and saber rattling!) You want a piece of dis? Huh? Huh?...said as I turn and reach into a bag, pulling out a big ole can with a label on it that says...yep, you guessed it: "Whoopass!"

Mike Collins
12-15-2000, 05:00 PM
oh, it's onn now!!!

Come get some cupcake!!!

Mike Collins
12-15-2000, 05:01 PM
Sorry, that should read:

"Come get some, cupcake"

I didn't mean to let you think I actually had some cupcakes here.

Sorry for the confusion

Erik
12-15-2000, 05:05 PM
Mikey wrote:
Okay, that's it.

I am the toughest man alive. I can kill with only a glance. Whoever challenges me is in for it. My Aikido is the best in the universe.

Or, perhaps not.

Hah! My daddy could kick your daddy's butt with his big toe tied behind his back. No, wait, my mommy could kick your daddy's butt with her big toe tied behind her back.

Don't messy with the little piggie.

Gerardo A Torres
12-15-2000, 11:44 PM
Nick wrote:

The main reason Aikidoka don't admit their prowess is:

1. Words are worthless.
2. If we should say such a thing, than we may start to believe it.
3. Anyone who says such a thing is usually pretty clueless about budo.

Yeah, I agree.

What about the confidence problem I talked about?

I notice a lot of aikidoka being attracted to some aspects of the art, but they don't think it could work in a real situation, so they don't worry about that during their training. This however, doesn't represent a problem in our aikido community. On the contrary, the different reasons why people practice are equally valued.

What's your take on this? Is there really a confidence problem or everything is fine as it is?

crystalwizard
12-16-2000, 03:57 AM
There's a difference between confidence and over confidence.

And really how humble is it to go around bragging about how good you are? All that does is invite people to ask you to prove it and Aikido's not about 'proving' anything.

Aikido is about getting out of the dangerous situation...and the best way to get out of the dangerous situation is not to get into it.

Why is it that some people seem to feel it is necessary for bragging and chest beating to be done?

REK
12-16-2000, 07:28 AM
crystalwizard wrote:
Why is it that some people seem to feel it is necessary for bragging and chest beating to be done?

Because, despite our insistence on our evolutionary superiority, such is human nature.

I like your tag line. I like to think I live in a loving world, but work in a hostile ward. Ah, neuropathology.

ian
12-16-2000, 11:14 AM
This is really to Gerardo:

I think everyone goes through confidence problems in whatever martial art they do - it means that you realise that just doing a martial art doesn't make you invincible. But I see it as a good thing; it helps you to explore why you think certain thingsa wouldn't work, and leads you to a deeper understanding of how it really should work.

If there is one thing that never ceases to amaze me with aikido techniques, is that what appears to be a nice and effective technique at the start, turns out to be a very ingenious technique with multiple options for change, excellent ways of protecting your own body whilst performing technique, and plenty of opportunities to do more damage if the situation requires it.

Ian

Gerardo A Torres
12-16-2000, 08:59 PM
I'll do my best to be clearer:

Imagine you have a physics exam tomorrow and you've studied a lot, but lack confidence in what you know and start feeling insecure. Experience tells this will affect your performance in the exam. Now apply the same situation to aikido.

Since this is a thread about aikido's combat effectiveness, my whole point was that we should be confident in the basics we have learned and believe in the art in order to perform in case of a confrontation.

I never said anything about "thinking we know everything," "going out looking for challenges," "wording out our prowess," "bragging," "chest beating" and thinking ourselves "invincible." These are ways of being arrogant, which is very different from being confident.

crystalwizard
12-16-2000, 11:22 PM
This is also mostly to Gerdo:

are you getting the idea that people are feeling insecure about their aikido because they are not willing to assume they can handle anything that comes along with it? or for some other reason?

If it's the first...why does it mean someone is insecure just because they are interested in being cautious and realistic?

JasonDelucia
01-06-2003, 11:16 AM
i agree with george,no one has ever done aikido in ufc or any other ,but as i have said before they have as recently made it so that you wont see it either .but soon you will .please read the threads on the nhb vs aiki page (i'ld hate to re write all that)

but in short they promoters secretly curtail the ability of the athlete by making rules and intervensions just prior to the fight to acomplish this .

TO JOEY SOLA,PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO AIKIDO CAN'T DO IT IN A FIGHT .BUT IF YOU WANT TO SEE IT DONE YOU CAN FIGHT ME IN UFC AND I WILL ENLIGHTEN YOU .

JASON DELUCIA

john2226
01-06-2003, 11:59 AM
I think Larry Novick said it better than I ever could have. Reread that post. As far as Aikido not working, I find that to be false. No one cay say with 100% assurance that one style is better than another. There are always exceptions. To say one style doesnt work at all, to me seems like a very ignorant thing to say. I train in Aikido because I like the philosphy behind it. I am at heart a content and calm young man. I feel i have nothing to prove to anyone and have walked away from many fights because of it. If all else fails and I cant walk away, then i will defend myself and I believe my Aikido will carry me though. 99% of fights in my opinion are caused by guys thinking with the other head. Trying to be bad asses. I never did understand that mode of thinking. If you dont come across as a bad ass you probably wont have a problem. There are always people who wont leave you alone and they have to learn the hard way :) Most of the time if you say "Im sorry" and walk away its alright. The other persons ego isnt hurt and they think they won the conflict. You backed down and so they are ok with themseleves and their insecure little world. This is the way I see things. Sorry for the slight rant people.

John

Lyle Bogin
01-06-2003, 12:01 PM
Perhaps the issue is that fighting does not work in Aikido.

Judd
01-06-2003, 06:03 PM
I agree. Anyone can throw a punch, and usually, in times of panic, people resort to blows becuase it's the only thing they know. Whether it's from older brothers growing up, TV, etc, the simple act of punching is so embedded in our brains as a way of defending ourselves that is totally instinctive. Striking, in my opinion, is the wrong solution all together. Punching hurts the giver as well as the receiver, unless the giver has practiced. And in practicing, he/she has experienced pain in order to tolerate it. Enduring pain so you can deal it upon another? What point does that serve? Fighting gives resolution to nothing.

Chocolateuke
01-06-2003, 11:07 PM
er dude and your opinion is based on what?? Have you ever been in a real fight? I dont mean just with your friends messin arround, nor sparring but a real life to death sturggle? I haven't I hope to never be. If you have not been in a real fight then you have no idea if Aikido would work or not esp if you have not trained in Aikido. dude you are making bold statements remember never judge a book by its cover even if you have trainied for 4 months.

Judd
01-07-2003, 10:21 AM
Technically, an opinion does not have to be based on anything. That's why it's an opinion :). Regardless, my point with my above post (which may have not been overly clear) is that Aikido's focus is not on fighting at all, but rather on the time leading up to that split second before that first strike makes contact. A good practitioner (not me) could end a conflict before it could begin, thus Aikido would never NEED to be good in a fight, since the whole point is to stop one from happening in the first place. That's all what I was trying to say. Besides, there's no right or wrong answer to this quesion anyway, or even an answer to begin with, but that's just splitting hairs now...

JasonDelucia
01-07-2003, 11:59 AM
lyle bogin,truer words were never spoken.of course it is necessarily true that aikido must be competent for defense ,and by it's thearetic basis it is the perfect martial art simply because if you only move evasively the enemy will not be able to attack ,as has been my experience when i first began to apply these principles in a professional fighting ring ,i noticed that the opponent would withdraw and only comense when i would engage offensively ,which is the antithesis of the art.once you violate the principle you lose the phenomena,but then i evolved into ''suigetsu''and ''awase ho'' made sense .infact'' awase ho'' is gate way to ''take- musu ''.

i do not know if mr. adolphsen is adressing his question to me or joey sola?

but as for my experience ,i' ve been transmuting aiki through out my fighting career well over ten years and well over fiftey professional fights (documented)and all that i say is not speculative ,it's factAIKIDO WORKS IN EVERY CAPACITY PROMISSED .i am happy to share facts not trying to be offensive .but the only way to validate what we are talking about is to do it .and just remember that in his time mr.ueshiba never refused a challenge ,for a good cause ,and i think setting the example not to take a quick path is a good example.thatsjust my oppinion.

finally some people are wondering about the chest beating fighters ?me too .some people are in love with the art and others with themselves.many is the time i've suffered a loss publicly (usually injuriously)only to have the opponent, often times a steroid ridden egotist ,jumping in the air ignoring you for the crowd,but they are only human.they are validating the things they thought would make them whole .ONCE A REPORTER ASKED ME WHAT MY FOCUSS WAS ,AND WHY IT WASN'T THE TITLE BELT.MY ANSWER ,THAT I KNEW IF I COULD TRANSMUTE TO AIKIDO, THAT I COULD HAVE ANY TITLE BELT ,BEAT ANY ONE ,DO ANY THING.I KNEW MY CAREER WAS SUFFERING FROM THE CONVERSION ,AND I DIDN'T CARE .I KNEW THAT MR. UESHIBA WAS CONSIDERED TO BE IN HIS PRIME NEAR 50 YEARS OLD AND WAS EFFECTIVE TILL THE DAY HE DIED .KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW ,I SEE WHY .AND WHEN FIGHTERS OF MY AGE RETIRE I CAN BEAT THEM AND THEIR STUDENTS ,BECAUSE OF THE ART ,NOT THE EGO.

JASON DELUCIA

Bruce Baker
01-07-2003, 01:49 PM
AIKIDO WILL NOT ... PROTECT YOU, OR WORK IN A REAL FIGHT SITUATION.

Fact is ... Aikido is merely a description of they type of practice we do.

Aikido doesn't do anything.

YOU DO!!

That out of the way, this posturing about how aikido is effective is so much drivel.

Break any teachers rythm, take away the advantage, neutralize aikido's safe practices, and there will be punches, kicks, grappling, and whole host of dirty tricks of get the advantage back into the aikido practitioners court ... I know from first hand practice of breaking form to see what instinctual measures most practicing aikido teacher from first dan to sixth dan level would do, and although it is within the movements of practiced aikido, it is always back to my old friends from Kempo Karate, Wally Jay Jujitsu. So, don't mistake the kindness of practice for the more deadly practical uses of aikido.

You ain't gonna fight with the practice methods you use to have safe practice on the mat but ...

you will find more effective uses for what you learn elsewhere, and practicing aikido will increase the effectiveness of what you would use in a fight.

If you didn't get that read it again.

Anyone, who is anyone, knows that Aikido is but a piece of the puzzle you need for your martial arts training. If you don't get it in Aikido, you will have to find it somewhere else, but in many more pieces than you would in training in Aikido.

I accept the fact that there is something of value in every martial art .... question is ... where did it come from, how did it evolve into that art, and how many uses are there for it? (It being the technique, or type of technique being taught by each different school of martial arts.)

Accept that Joeyscola planted a bomb,and we responded in typical defense way that Aikido is as good as any martial art practiced today.

Aikido is a taught as a fighting art?

Well, it isn't.

Every practitioner finds his/her own practical use for what they learn in Aikido. It is not taught in its safest form because it is not effective, it is taught in the safest form possible because it is so effective!

By itself, taught in its present form, without proper crosstraining, or at least finding the practical applications for Aikido, it is not effective for street fighting, brawling, or any other kind of MINDLESS VIOLENCE.

But ... used without fear, by someone who see's the effectiveness it brings to all the other skills you learn in seeking the martial path, that path which can hurt someone easier than it is to heal someone, you am gonna put a hurtin on some poor fool if you have to use the applications of Aikido.

Aikido helps usto find the path of the clear mind as it sees as a way to reconcile the world with the least amount of violence, especially if one can reconcile the spectre of violence with none at all.

Knowledge is as much power, as much as stupidity starts so many unnecessary fights.

You what to know what you will learn in Aikido?

You will learn how to fill in that missing piece of the martial puzzle you are searching for by crossing training and learning how to make all these arts your very own.

It damn well may even make you a better human being for it, or .... it just might break you.

Becoming non-violent does that to some tough guys.

Turns them into driveling idiots.

In other words, they are tough on the outside, but not tough on the inside where the real battle rages.

If that doesn't answer your question, come train with me for a few sessions at Long Beach Island, NJ, and you will see how a gorilla can be so gentle in practice, but use so little strength to hurt you.

Actually, my teacher hurts the new guys more than I do ... at seventy two, being half my size and weight he doesn't intimidate tough guys like I do, so I guess he is allowed to take some libertys in practice?

Bruce Baker
01-07-2003, 02:01 PM
Oh, by the way, people never get hurt when they go with the flow of practice, only when they try to be BJJ, wrestlers, grapplers, or counter productive to the training process.

Just thought I would throw that in as a bone to say, I know what is like to be uke and be cranked so hard it results in injury.

That is another set of storys from training in Kempo, jujitsu....

Lyle Bogin
01-07-2003, 03:56 PM
"Oh, by the way, people never get hurt when they go with the flow of practice, only when they try to be BJJ, wrestlers, grapplers, or counter productive to the training process."

BJJ and advanced grappling is very much about going with the flow.

Bruce Baker
01-07-2003, 05:54 PM
Yeah I know, but they want you to do everything their way.

I just wish there was someone closer to where I live, and I would get better so I could train in BJJ somemore.

It is definitely a lot of fun.

I just feel bad about people who strain when trapped to the point they cause themselves an injury.

The thing is though ... all the fun things you would really use to hurt someone are 'out of bounds' ... maybe because egos run high and some trainees don't know when to put it away?

Paula Lydon
01-07-2003, 06:51 PM
~~Depends on your Aikido and if you subscribe to any rules or not~~

Chocolateuke
01-07-2003, 07:49 PM
Mr. Delucia I was addressing the origional poster of this thread. The main thing is we have these threads here a lot and pretty much the same responses are put out. I guess Im just curious on what the originial posters opinion is based on. thats all thank you for replying to me tho :)

Judd
01-08-2003, 02:48 PM
Dallas - I'm sorry for my reply above, I thought you were addressing me. What a mess! :)

Tim Harley
01-08-2003, 03:14 PM
What you know (to the point of instinct) is what you'll use in a real life encounter. That is why you train. If you train in kickboxing, that's what you'll use in a fight. If you train in Aikido, that is what you'll use. And how much you train and how much you apply yourself during training will determine how effective you are in a real fight.

I've used the principles of Aikido in real situations. They were effective for me. But I've also used other fighting principles and they were effective too.

My $.02.

;)

Peace.

Nick P.
01-08-2003, 04:10 PM
As someone greater than I once said:

"You do not rise to the level of your expectations,

You fall to the level of your training."

Train-on, Young Jedi.

locknthrow
01-12-2003, 01:18 AM
where was this thread aobut combatives vs Aikido or something like that and the one called Arrogance????

johnny rebb
01-14-2003, 04:55 PM
First of all, I have to say that Aikidoists have no place in a UFC, that's the whole idea of Aikido. But there is much practical knowledge to be gained in Aikido, that is more than useful on the street. First being able to judge one's Ki, and knowing whether they pose a threat. I believe that any Aikidoist who has been paying attention to the entire training of Aikido, and not just the movements, should be someone who is very hard to suprise in a street. Especially if they've become acustomed to 'keeping their head on a swivell' as my boss used to say. Secondly, being in tune with your opponents Ki, once a confrontation is unavoidable, is the best way to keep yourself from getting hurt, if you move when they move and are simply not there when the strike or attack lands, you suddenly have an advantage. HAving my base in Karate, and not Aikido, I would probably revert back to it in a real fight. But, I feel the teaching of being one with your opponent, and feeling his Ki is invaluable, and would likely not have ever been able to survive a fight without it. I have yet to come across a martial art that puts so much emphasis on this philosophy, and whether I am using Aikdio techniquees, or Karate, these will help me in all aspects of my life.
you´re all living in a fantasy world...real streetfighting is (to keep it short)UGLY!

It´s clear to me that you don´t know shit about realworldfighting any of you.Go down to your local bad neighbourhood, pick a fight and watch yourself bleed all over the pavement.

There is nothing glorius about it in real life.

johnny rebb
01-14-2003, 04:56 PM
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

shihonage
01-14-2003, 05:17 PM
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
Also, www.senshido.com .

Detective Dobbs
02-07-2003, 10:10 PM
Who ever told you the ufc,pride or whatever are real fights is misleading you for probably financial gains through pay-per-view. Or maybe so you can join a jiu-jitsu class and go roll around in the street in a real atercation.The pavement don`t forgive, both people will take a beating. A real fight is missing all the things that make these sports/games games to begain with. Real fights don`t have a referee to save a person introuble,there are no rest periods for water/toilet breaks,no five minute rounds,judges panel. etc Supposedly "no rules" fighting has plenty of rules,in fact too many for me to list. Interesting they may be I certainly like to watch and most often laugh at the so called expert and self proclaimed bad ass that always appear. Most of these guys have no clue as to what a bad ass is.The real bad ass is fighting in a non paid event called a "smoker" behind his favorite bar.Thanx to people like you,smart people like me can watch and wonder how practical it is to wrestle on pavement.Peace

Kelly Allen
02-08-2003, 05:14 AM
:) I gotto hand it to Joey sola that despite the fact he didn't want to here what ppl had to say, he sure started a good thread. It just took me 5 hours to read through all of this thread and there are some insites here that are very well put. Although I couldn't ad anything that hasn't already been said,I would recommend this read to anyone. :ai: :ki: :do:

Dennis Hooker
02-08-2003, 07:13 AM
To quote a Shihan friend of mine when ask by a fellow why his Aikido did not work once “ Aikido works, Your Aikido don’t. Don’t confuse the two” H.I.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Cyrijl
02-10-2003, 09:03 AM
joey's right...aikido does not work in a fight. It is not supposed to. However, arrogance and eliteism from the penut gallery is not going to convince him of that either.

Dennis Hooker
02-10-2003, 11:49 AM
Perhaps yours don't! Mine does when need be. One does not have to forego ones principles for it to work either. Perhaps our Aikido is different.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

paw
02-10-2003, 12:29 PM
***** rant

I've been hesitating to post this, but well....

Increasingly I've become very concerned about the use of certain catch phrases. "Aikido works, your aikido may not" being one of them (and hereafter refered to as "the phrase").

Often, this expression is used by someone with a good deal of experience and I generally understand the point to be simply: surviving a real-world confrontation takes skill, training, experience and a fair degree of luck. I totally agree with that line of thought.

However, I have heard the phrase repeated in a manner that greatly concerns me. Let me be very clear that I do not believe Dennis is using the phrase in any of these ways.

1. The phrase is used as a way of omitting true responsibility of an instructor to their students. The line of thought is almost like a disclaimer, as if to say, "as an instructor I believe that <insert martial art here> to be effective for real world self-defense. However, the instructor takes no responsibility that training with them for any amount of time will develop skills for real world self-defense."

2. The phrase is used to imply that aikido is a perfect system designed for any and all real world self-defense situation. I have a hard-time believing this. I doubt that aikido was envisioned as an effective means of self-defense while under water, for example. Now, I do believe an arguement could be made that aikido principles are applicable in a self-defense situation, wherever that situation would occur. However, the "word" is not the "thing" and the "description" is never what is "described". If one shows up to aikido class wearing a wet-suit and inquires about the pool, I'm sure they'll be instructed to change into suitable clothing for AIKIDO training.

3. Lots of things work. However, people don't live forever (as far as I know). Sure, tae bo could produce someone who could survive a real world self-defense encounter ... but boxing will develop the same skills in far less time ... and a 1/2 day class in the legal use of chemical sprays will be faster (and more effective) than both. Put it this way, if you want to travel from California, USA to Alberta, Canada of course you can walk there. Me? I'm taking a plane and getting there before you reach the city line. Why? Because of the success rate that nearly anyone can travel from California, USA to Alberta, Canada by plane (demonstrated, consistant examples, plus the ability to quickly and easily verify and recreate) .... there is no such success rate that nearly anyone can actually walk the same distance (a theory with maybe a handful of successful examples).

**** end rant

My honest to goodness opinion. If you want real world self-defense, train for exactly that purpose. Can aikido be used for this? Sure, but I would imagine it would be a very different aikido class than the norm.

Regards,

Paul

Dennis Hooker
02-10-2003, 01:20 PM
From my personal knowledge this application of the phrase was directed toward a nidan involved in a street fight. More to the point he went to the rescue of a young lady being mugged and after his first unsuccessful attempted at defending himself against what appeared to be a skilled boxer he lost confidence in both himself and his art and lost the fight. His first mistake was fighting. When he admitted to himself there was a fight he gave the other person a possibility to win. The offender got into his mind first and then his body. His Aikido did not work because what he was calling Aikido was not Aikido. In fact by controlling his actions and mind the aggressor was actually demonstrating better use of Aikido than was the potential hero. It was an attempt to use the classroom techniques in a fight. Big mistake. Had he remained calm and used the principles he had been taught the outcome may well have been different. As it proved to be when the next Aikido student stepped into the action and neutralized the attacker but not without harming him. So more to the point Aikido works but "Your Aikido Don't" was meant to suggest that he trust what he knew and practiced and not change it into something it never was and something he never practiced. He could survive and probably prevailed had he not lot his cool and his schooling in his hast to inter a fight. Aikido is not about fighting that is true, but is about surviving.

Dennis Hooker

opherdonchin
02-10-2003, 03:20 PM
I thought it was something Ikeda said in a seminar once.

Dennis Hooker
02-10-2003, 03:45 PM
It was said their also. But it was said earler in DC as well.

shihonage
02-10-2003, 03:59 PM
As it proved to be when the next Aikido student stepped into the action and neutralized the attacker but not without harming him.
So, the nidan and the "next Aikido student" were walking around, saw a lady being mugged.

Then the nidan says "Stay here, I'll take care of it", goes up to the "mugger" and gets the shit beat out of him.

Then the second guy says "Here, let me try", goes up to the same "mugger" and beats the shit out of him.

Is that how it happened ?

Dennis Hooker
02-11-2003, 07:28 AM
Why the attitude?

No, what happened took place outside the dojo. The first guy walked out and saw what was happening and the attempted to stop it. When the next guy came out he did stop it. I don't know what they said but I feel fairly cretin no one talked about beating the shit out of someone because I know the guys.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Johnny Chiutten
02-12-2003, 06:30 PM
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
joeysola. Its obvious that you have no experience or understanding at all to what a real fight (combat) is. Wrestling, boxing, BBJ, UFC etc etc are competitions with rules and regulations and have NO real bearing to real fighting.

I agree that many aikido dojo(and many other styles as well) do not train realistically. Maybe you should look for other aikido dojo that will teach you this.

But every martial art has its value for reality if you specifically train for that. Others have different goals in mind.

You cannot say that one style is better than the other because its always up to the individual that makes the style not the style that makes the man.

paw
02-12-2003, 09:36 PM
Johnny,

We've done the "real fight" thing to death, and I've no desire to start again.

However,
You cannot say that one style is better than the other because its always up to the individual that makes the style not the style that makes the man.

I cannot disagree with this statement strongly enough. In your very post you stated that different martial arts have different goals. Therefore, given a particular goal, one can determine that arts that have that goal in mind are better than arts that do not.

To make a sporting example, gynmastics is a great endevour. So is dance. Neither is ideal for traversing through a body of water in the fastest, most effecient manner possible. To make an educational example, having knowledge of the law is good and benefits society. Having knowledge of the behavior of animals is also beneficial. Neither is ideal or complete if someone's goal is to fly an airplane.

Regards,

Paul

Dan Bruce
02-15-2003, 04:12 PM
Hi I use Aikido in law enforcement, and I see it as a means to quickly disable, and alieviate any further harm from happening to anyone. I am only 5' 5" tall and have brought many a "big" man down in less than a heartbeat. Aikido was NEVER meant as a way to give harm to another, but as a way to prevent physical harm.

aikido_fudoshin
02-15-2003, 09:50 PM
There is a difference between budo and sport, and there is a difference between real life and UFC. Aikido's training system is meant to condition you for the heat of the moment, adrenaline pumping situation. This happens when your life or health is faced with serious threat. In this type of situation you will be faced with committed attacks and if your not, then there is probably an opportunity to leave the confrontation.

Other martial arts have lost the aspect of simulating an attack with full intent with their integration into sport. They are training for a totally different situation and this is in part what separates budo from sport. Also, like Gozo Shioda said, when you train for sport, you are training to be at your best for that particular moment. When you train in budo, you are at your best all the time. To me, UFC falls under the sports category.

I would also like to mention that Aikido is not effective unless the Aikidoka has worked hard enough to make the movements natural and this takes much time. I feel many of the people posting here are making uniformed judgments about a martial art they do not have much experience in or are amongst the many who have found Aikido to be too hard and thus discredited it. I'll admit there are some pretty "fluffy" forms of Aikido out there, but by no means are they the majority and many martial arts have this as well.

I always think its funny when people say Aikido is fake, and uke is throwing him/herself around for show. Go and experience a good nikajo, hiji shime, or irimi technique and tell us how fake it is after that.

Osu!

joesol
02-15-2003, 10:26 PM
WOW!!! I started this discussion almost 3 years ago. I cannot believe it is still going. I have not been back to visit this site in a very long time so my old account was deactivated. I signed up for a new user name and login and will try and read through all of this and get back into the mix.

Roy Dean
02-16-2003, 01:12 PM
Bryan,

"Aikido's training system is meant to condition you for the heat of the moment, adrenaline pumping situation."

So does competition, to a far greater degree of intensity than any Aikido class I've ever attended (including my own Shodan examination).

"Other martial arts have lost the aspect of simulating an attack with full intent with their integration into sport."

Actually, sport is one of the only arenas in which you can receive ACTUAL attacks with real intent (admittedly within specific parameters, depending on the discipline).

"When you train in budo, you are at your best all the time."

I strongly disagree. The body cannot be at the height of its physical powers at all times, or martial athletes would take advantage of this fact and never cycle their training. I think what you are suggesting is that budo practitioners are able to maintain a relatively high baseline level of fitness.

I agree, however, the fitness level of competitive martial athletes (aka sport practitioners) has, in my personal experience, been at a far higher level than budo practitioners. Even in the offseason (if there is one), or while resting their bodies in a down cycle of their training, sport practitioners are generally at a higher level of fitness level than their budo counterparts.

Many may disagree, but investigate it for yourself. Enter a kickboxing or grappling competition, and notice if your feel any adrenaline surges beyond a normal Aikido class. Feel the intent of your opponent. Note your own fitness level at the end of your fight, and contrast it with your opponent's. Observe the physiques of the martial competitors. Would they stand out or blend in at your dojo?

I have been on both sides of the fence, and this is my truth based on my personal experiences. Randori, (whether combative, creative, or competitive) is a training method that really develops applicable skills in those that engage in it. Competition is high pressure randori, and an an invaluable training tool.

Don't downplay competition, it can only improve your skills as a martial artist.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Kaj75
02-18-2003, 01:07 AM
GUys and girls, I am new here and was just interested in Aikido and wondering how it worked. But while reading this subject for some strange reason I am feeling offended in some weird way. I train at the Lions Den in Dallas TX and no nothing about Aikido I was pretty much just curious about it. Now to the subject that offended me. I've seen a few statments to which I do not agree with. I do not agree that NHB fighting has nothing to do with real fighting. I have seen several guys from my gym fight in competition and I know for a fact that given a street fight sitiation they would have a very very good chance of dominating theyre agresser. Now lets throw the gun sitiation in if the guy is 7 feet away from you pointing gun and willing and wanting to shoot you common get real no of your om my skills are going to defend us from a bullet except talking your way out of it maybe which it doesnt take martial Arts to do that. At the Lions Den we learn stand up, kicks, takedowns,and submissions. Its more of a variety of all the things that have been proven to work. I think that variety is the key. Now back to the NHB thing if Ken Shamrock, Guy Mezger, Travis Luter,and or plenty of other recognized UFC or Pride fighters were to get into a street fight Id' have to say theyre chance of coming out with the upper hand would be about 95% or so.Look sure weapons are pulled these days but if its a nife or what not why would you even push forward with the fight? No point to much danger walk away or run unless you have to then defend yourself. We have selfdefense moves that we are taught as well for certain situations that may occur. Anyway the UFC and or Pride are the closest thing to real fighting that are legal and those guys deserve more respect than what you guys in this thread are giving them.THEY ARE REAL FIGHTERS and if you don't think so I personally invite you to come on down to the DEN and tell Guy or KEN face to face, otherwise.Im not trying to attack anyone or be rude and I have much respect for all martial arts they definitly make you a better person when used properly and give you a greater since of self confidence. I am sure that Aikido is a good practice when used properly and I feel that this guy that is questioning it is going about it all wrong and is kinda rude. thanks for hearing me out sorry for the long post.

Shoey
02-20-2003, 08:27 PM
Hi everyone,

Of course everything iam about to write is of my own view/s.

Surely Aikido must have some effect for defense, Morihei Ueshiba created Aikido after mastering jujitsu kendo and judo and based the art on these "techniques" and his understanding.

Of course the techniques practised in the dojo, unless presented with the scenario in the street ( which would be a stroke of luck) would not be effective, unless it was worked into the situation, witch all martial arts have to work to.

There are tales of Morihei Ueshiba, pinning an ex-sumo wrestler with one finger.

Aikido is also a way to train your mind body and spirt so that you stay calm in situations

"When facing the realm of life and death in the formof an enemy's sword, one must be firmly settled in mind and body" - Morihei Ueshiba

I have read of other quotes that may help with this disscusion, I hopefully will post them soon.

please comment of my views etc

thankyou

SAM:D :D

Jimmy Hattori
02-21-2003, 09:46 AM
I HATE when people make judgement with lack of research or practice. Any art is hard to attain, but for Muay Thai, BJJ or any practice that are taught to fight in MMA/NHB are fairly easy to attain applicable level. But for Aikido, it takes tremendous amount of practice(keiko). As matter of fact, from reading Japanese Aiki magazine, Aiki is regarded as extended(or higher) level of "Ju"(as Judo, or Jujutsu, meaning soft). There are those who can achieve or enlightened in short period time or other takes longer. But just knowing a few wrist lock and steps, the one should NOT regard that is able to use Aikido, and most of all, SHOULD NOT conclude as "Aikido is not effective".

By the way, I am not an Aikido practitioner.

aikido_fudoshin
02-21-2003, 12:04 PM
So does competition, to a far greater degree of intensity than any Aikido class I've ever attended (including my own Shodan examination).

Actually, sport is one of the only arenas in which you can receive ACTUAL attacks with real intent (admittedly within specific parameters, depending on the discipline).

Many may disagree, but investigate it for yourself. Enter a kickboxing or grappling competition, and notice if your feel any adrenaline surges beyond a normal Aikido class. Feel the intent of your opponent. Note your own fitness level at the end of your fight, and contrast it with your opponent's. Observe the physiques of the martial competitors. Would they stand out or blend in at your dojo?

I have been on both sides of the fence, and this is my truth based on my personal experiences. Randori, (whether combative, creative, or competitive) is a training method that really develops applicable skills in those that engage in it. Competition is high pressure randori, and an an invaluable training tool.

Don't downplay competition, it can only improve your skills as a martial artist.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
I have been in many sparring matches and I can honestly say I dont feel much more excited there then I do in AIkido (no more excited then when it comes time to do a flip, or jumping back breakfall). The main reason is I know its not a life threatening situation. Sure there is possibility to get hurt but not that badly. You can tap out when ever you want, and the intent to injur is not there. Take Karate tournaments for example, they are based on scoring systems and people do not try to injur their opponent out of respect. Events like UFC, and boxing have more intent to injur and that can make your own adrenaline start pumping but thats not what I was refering to in my previous post.

Aikido trains you for those times when someone else has intent to injur you. Its not about your own adrenaline, its about the attackers. When someone wants to injur you they put more into their strikes, holds, etc., and any Aikidoka knows the more energy someone puts into it the easier they become unbalanced. To give a better example of this: if you have ever been in sparring match that started off friendly, and then someone gets a bit hurt and starts throwing harder attacks then you will have noticed the change in intent. The attacks in Aikido are created to mimic the type of attack that you will be faced with when there is real intent to injur. I think this is why Aikido is not used very much in competition because its very hard to unbalance someone when they are throwing "nothing" attacks at you for the sake of getting a point.

So all in all I was just trying to make a comparison between sport competition and intent to injur and how Aikido accounts for the latter in their training system.

Osu!

ryujin
02-24-2003, 02:53 PM
As someone who worked as a bouncer in a club that booked hard core punk and metal bands, aikido does work. In the one year that I worked there, I was the only bouncer who was never hit and I escorted the most people out.

Mel Barker
02-24-2003, 06:51 PM
As someone who worked as a bouncer in a club that booked hard core punk and metal bands, aikido does work. In the one year that I worked there, I was the only bouncer who was never hit and I escorted the most people out.
Carl, how long had you practiced aikido at that time?

Mel

JasonDelucia
02-27-2003, 06:22 PM
if you enter all situations with the same mind you will not be rattled.if you train with the true objective of the art instead of riding the compulsion to fulfill someone else's need for violence,you will be calm .the thing that happens to many is that they lose their original mind because ,they want to make a good show ,or they want to show off ,or they use negetive emotions to fuel their spirit.negetive emotions inherently cause over stimulation which should be the last resort ,not the first.when times are desparate you do what you must ,that goes without saying,but with training you use the same mind every where

JasonDelucia
02-27-2003, 07:14 PM
kris,maybe you know who i am ,so induldge me.

having been there and done that,take it from me ,any competition with rules and referees is not a real fight .it is a good simulation and you'll be better prepared than someone who has never been there,but it is not real in the sense we talk.even when there were no rules in ufc which i fought ,the fact that there were referees makes all the difference in the world.a split second of compassion from a ref can save a life ,and over zealous compassion can alter a fight's conclusion.for example the fight between guy and tito was in my opinion stopped prematurely (way too soon)and if there were no rounds in the ken vs tito i believe the results would have been very different.for ken,a guy who trained much of his career to fight 30 minutes straight,his impulses have to be compromised.

i believe the point of many aikidoka is that there is a pristine system which came about through variety and constant ecclectic research ,refinement and spritual metephore.which unlike many existing philosophies enriches a person moraly.by that i refer to the less evolved fighter who uses anger ,ego ect.to the man who makes it a point to reach submission quickly ,then shows compassion to gain respect and make friends as i believe i have done with all members of the lions den .aiki is not simply technique ,and i don't want to sound condescending,but i make the point to illustrate ,to perform traditional aikido effectively takes much longer than is realistic for a professional fighter .that is because it came about from a man who mastered one style at a time and he gradually ''morphed''into this thing .and to retrace his steps is impossible ,so he standardized the basic tenets to make possible the journey.

ps.aikido is not a real fight either,but it is true self defense.tell ken and guy ect.hi

ryujin
02-28-2003, 02:03 PM
Carl, how long had you practiced aikido at that time?

Mel
At that time, I had about 7 years in training. I was often putting in about 15 hours a week. Its been a bit less since returning to school for higher education.

:circle:

DaveO
03-01-2003, 03:04 AM
Hello, friends; I was uncertain where to put this, and was unwilling to start a separate thread; so this one seemed like the best place to put it.

Aikido works, if the user works. And it works perfectly well. As of an hour ago, I know for certain.

Please excuse the prosaic style of this, I want to record it while its still fresh in my mind and don't know any other way of writing.

I work nights, which means on my days off I'm up nights as well most of the time. A couple hours ago, I was working on my computer, realized I was running out of cigarettes (Insert anti-smoking disparagememt here) so put my coat on and headed out to the nearest all-night store; a 7-11 up on King Street; about 15 minutes away by foot.

The store is across the street from Club Abstract; an alternative bar with a certain notoriety for being lax with its alcoho cut-off rules. Needless to say, the girls working at the 7-11 don't have a very good time of it at around 1:30am.

Anyway, I was approaching the store and looking in the windows, could see the girls were dealing with a drunk patron - he looked like he was arguing very forcefully about the price of something - I could hear his voice from where I was standing.

These girls deal with this all the time, so for caution's sake, I faded into the bushes just in case something happened. (I don't want to sound like I'm making a joke, but I was an Infantryman for most of my life - I'm very good at being invisible when I want to be.)

Anyway, the girls finally had enough and told him to leave which - after threatening to call the cops (I found out later) he did, with his two friends. He left, shouting curses and threats. Once he was gone, the situation over, I walked into the store, chatted with the girls for a few minutes (they're friends of mine) them bought my smokes and left the store.

You guessed it - the drunk idiot decided honour must be avenged, and had returned. This wasn't a matter of cooling someone down, giving him room to think, giving him a chance to choose peace, etc., this guy flat out wanted a fight - and he wanted if from the first person to cross his path, which was me.

In my own defence, I tried to talk him down. I smiled and said "You've been having a good night, eh?" etc. Didn't work - he wanted to go, period. My end went in the space of about two minutes from jocular to calming to cautionary while his friends egged him on and laughed. Finally; I had no choice but to get serious; I told him in no uncertain terms what would happen if he attacked. His drunk laugh and glance at his two buddies told me everything I needed to know - the fight had just started.

Now; Im sure a whole lot of people are going to start saying that you can't know what's about to happen; to be blunt, that's foolish and ignorant. Yes, you can. Unskilled fighters telegraph their moves - cock a fist, throw a shoulder, give subtle-as-a-club gestures to their friends etc. So, I knew exactly what was coming.

My initial response was "Oh, sh*t." I was annoyed - even sober, these three would have little chance of dealing with a veteran soldier; drunk, no chance at all, armed or not. (They weren't - they would have pulled them before then.)

Anyway; buddy number one's right hand shot out to grab my coat so he could hit me with his left. Buddies 2 and 3 started to flank; the intent to push me over backwards.

Obviously, it didn't work that way, I moved as soon as he did and a lot faster - when his hand touched me to grab, I grabbed it with my left, whipped my right up and over and dropped into a hard nikkyo. His body was going back as he was cocking his left arm, so I pushed forward and down keeping his right arm cocked. He screeched and hit his knees. Good enough, but I had 2 more to deal with. I reversed the hold into sankyo, reverted to karate for a second and gave him a quick strike with the heel of the hand to the midsection to knock his wind out and spun him around with the sankyo so he was between me and buddy #3. #2 and 3 had stopped, uncertain. OK, fight was over - they weren't about to attack. I projected buddy#1 into the wall of the store, told him (word for word) "Don't attack strangers, boychik. Bad things might happen to you." I dropped him and faced the other two again. I said "Next!" and took a step towards them, they took off like rockets - right into the cops who'd just arrived. (They were in the Abstract; checking the place out. They'd seen what was happening and were moving to help, but it was all over before they'd crossed the street.) I dodn't think the whole thing took more than fifteen seconds.

After about an hour, the cops let us all leave. I argued with them not to arrest the drunk; he'd learned his lesson. (Arresting me was never in question fortunately; they'd seen the whole thing.) After interviewing me, the three, the girls, and about 20 others that had been watching, they let me leave, and the other two. The first, (His name, I learned, is Ian) they took away.

I'm looking over this and to me; it sounds a bit like a bad Seagal plot. I dunno; that's just the way things turned out. I never intended to strictly use Aikido; I didn't make any concious decisions relating to the engagement at all - I just acted, using what was best for the moment. My only concious decision - made long before the fight started; several years ago I'd say - was to not injure them if at all possible. Perhaps that was why Aikido came out and not karate or jiu-jitsu.

One other thing: I'm sure that when reading this scores of people are going to pipe up saying 'oh, that was wrong, you shouldn't have done that, etc.etc.' I KNOW at least one person will pipe up saying 'you could have run away and avoided the fight'.

Yeah, right.

Let's be blunt: I had absolutely no inclination to run from these weiners. Had I done so, (A) they would have chased me, (B) it would have been needlesly humiliating to run, (C)they would have been emboldened enough to attack the next person out the door, period.

Another comment would be "You might have been hurt or killed" Total BS; they were not a real threat - that's why I proceeded as I did; working to frighten, not injure. To reiterate; I've faced entire platoons of hostiles in my time overseas; 3 drunks simply don't qualify as a serious danger.

And no; i wasn't 'lucky', luck had no part of the situation.

In my life, with the exception of countless incidents during peacekeeping/making operations, I've been exactly two fights; this one included. Hopefully, it'll be the last, but I'm glad to know Aikido works when used...not that I ever had any doubts. :)

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest while it was still fresh in my mind, friends.

Kelly Allen
03-01-2003, 04:11 AM
I think you did the right thing! If it wasn't you it would have been the girls in the 7-11.

The part about reverting to Karate. That sounded more like well placed atemi to me.;)

Aristeia
03-01-2003, 04:35 AM
Good story. What I find particularly interesting is that the two techniques you found effective were wrist locks against the infamous "drunken opponant". I guess not everyone who has a few drinks is as impervious to a good nikkyo or sankyo as some seem to think.

DaveO
03-01-2003, 04:56 AM
I only did what I knew; Michael. I've only been doing Aikido for less than a year and know very little technique. But; what technique I do know I practice until I can do them easily so when the time comes, I don't have to think about it.

Interesting; I never heard about Nikkyo and Sankyo not working on drunks; but I certainly know they work - I've been doing a variation of sankyo for years; in the military and among cops, it's called a 'come-along' for obvious reasons. Nikkyo is quite common in varied form as well; just called a 'wristlock' I was using something (vaguely) like it years ago.
(Besides, I have to point out that when that nikkyo went on, there was 210lbs coming down on it, full force. Drunk or not, no-one's standing up through that.) :)

akiy
03-01-2003, 10:38 AM
Hi Dave,

I'm glad everything turned out OK. You're safe, the folks in the convenience store are safe, and the people who attacked you seemed to "learn their lesson" without being seriously injured.

But, all in all, let's hope things like this don't happen again...

-- Jun

DaveO
03-01-2003, 10:56 AM
Agreed - dealing with drunks is most distasteful.

DaveO
03-02-2003, 03:09 AM
Just want to clarify my last comment - I hope it didn't sound too arrogant; in hindsight I thought it might.

My viewpoint on dealing with situations like this are clear; if someone wants to start a fight, I have no moral qualms about finishing that fight, or about causing pain or fear to do so. The way I see it; like all things on this earth. a fight is a game. A game with its own rules, strategy and protocol. Rule #1 for any game states that if you wish to play; you had better be prepared for the possibility of losing because eventually, you will.

See; when a person decides to start a fight (and there is always a conscious decision to fight; fights are never spontaneous), he is effectively announcing the game and the rules; forcing the other person to play that game whether he likes it or not. So; if someone plays that game with me, I'm going to play to win.

And here; while we are looking at the fight as a game, is where a little bit of the 'art' in Martial Arts comes in. I in no way consider myself a skilled martial artist. I'm a good fighter; little more. But; as in any game like chess, bridge, hockey, politics, business, etc., when one player has a sufficient skill advantage over his opponent, he can direct the game-play to the conclusion that he wishes; i.e. not simply winning; but winning in a satisfactory style. Gary Kasparov doesn't like to cream his opponent on the chessboard; he likes to build a beautiful game rich with pattern and guile into the match. A champion debater doesn't want to bludgeon his opponent into submission with emotional words; he wants to weave an elegant basket of argument from which his opponent cannot escape. MY ideal in this situation is to end the conflict with no-one hurt, no laws broken and valuable lessons learned.

Hmmm - I digressed a bit. Getting back to the point, I view fighting like I do all things; as a game; one I play to win. I just don't like playing that particular game with drunks; it's, well, distasteful - they're not going to win; they're loud smelly and obnoxious; and usually fairly disgusting to lay hands on. There are a lot of guys like that; some are very good friends of mine; nice, even and generous people when sober; they turn into total frankensteins after a few drinks. Sad, really.

omerbey
10-13-2004, 12:53 PM
In FRP language, at early levels multiclassing with aikido gives more practical results. But at higher levels a pure aikido core class is demigod. You probably lost me here, but I couldn't keep myself from saying this. :)

Yokaze
10-13-2004, 11:03 PM
My two cents that nobody will ever read:

Look, if I wanted to go to a bar and start a fight, Aikido is not the way to go. If I want to be a bully and push people around, try to intimidate and force other people, Aikido is not the way to go.

That's all the writer of this thread wants. To go out and beat people up. Anyone can do that. If I just wanted to hurt people, I'd buy a gun and not waste my time learning three martial arts. Duh.

So no, with an attitude like that, of course you can't see how Aikido is useful. All of those things that you are calling weaknesses, the lack of competition, the gentleness of it all, we regard as Aikido's greatest strengths.

There's no way I can convince you of the practicality of Aikido other than to compete with you. However, that goes against everything I believe as an Aikidoka. If I wanted to compete, I'd wrestle again. Or take up Judo. I don't want to hurt people. At the same time I don't want to get hurt. Mastery of Aikido allows me to do just that.

destura
10-14-2004, 04:46 AM
Joeysola wrote,

The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.


... is that because Aikido is a Defensive?... or it is because the Martial art for Peace!...
But.... try to punch and kick or any attack to an aikidoka... and you will see and feel what you want.... hehehe...

jss
10-14-2004, 07:09 AM
Joeysola wrote,

I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.


Time for the old 'fight vs. self-defence' discussion!
Any volunteers?

Ron Tisdale
10-14-2004, 10:56 AM
No

Rt

Anjisan
10-14-2004, 01:08 PM
Many of us who follow Aikido related sites have been down this path many times before. I have been training in both Aikido and karate/kick-boxing for many years now and they, like all arts have their weaknesses. I also have cross-trained in BJJ for 2 years to expand my training in case I am ever taken to the ground. Let me say that I have tremedous respect for BJJ as an art. Specifically, with regard to Aikido I believe that it really varies form dojo to dojo and instructor to instructor as far as strikes are concerned. I have seen Aikido practicioners who inspire me with their ability in terms of self-defence (Saotome sensei. Saito sensei and Seagal sensei for example) and then those who seem to at least really struggle if ever confronted with a real situation. I believe that It really depends on the practicionar and the dojo emphasis. Many schools don't emphasize strikes as much as others perhaps believeing that it could become a crutch for not executing the tecnique properly. I remember when I was training in BJJ that we would emphasize the ability to pass the guard, switch from on position to anther, execute joint locks and chokes without striking (partly becasue it would shorten the practice considerably, just as in karate we didin't spar bare knuckled either) because we wanted to develop skill and not have to rely on pumeling a guy to make the tecnique work. I mean it seems to me that many people could execute most tecniques on someone if they have just smacked a guy across the face with say.....an elbow. It seems unfair to indite an entire art based on limeted experience.

Further, I never hear from practicioners of BJJ when they speak to the practicality of Bjj (which I don't entirely disagree with) how such issues as dealing with multiple attackers, conflits taking place on concrete or similar surface as opposed to a mat, no rules--of any kind on the street-- against eye gouging, biting, groing attacks, etc and the very real possility of the individual that one is rolling around with haveing a knife or shank to pull out of their boot or pocket and carve up your kidneys with while that beautiful triangle choke is being put in place. I mean the issues of strikes may become of less importance in the grand scheme of things if your opponent's friends are taking turns kicking you in the head, punching you repeatedly, and going back to their vehicle to get the gun, knife, or some other weapon you don't have time to consider becaue your attention is consumed with the persone that your are rolling around with.


Best Regards.

jonreading
10-14-2004, 01:12 PM
Hmmm. I have read into this thread for several minutes and noticed that Joeysola's (originator) comments seem to be an apple/orange comparison. I once heard a comment about the place of martial arts and the strengths and weaknesses inherent to each. An analogy was made to racing that compared sprinters to marathon runners to triathletes. Who is a better athlete? (please don't answer...)

I have a lot of respect for serious martial artists, and I respect the skill of individuals. I think the simple fact of the matter is a serious martial artist believes what they know. I believe that skilled martial artist learns to protect their weakness. I am not convinced that the originator of this thread is either, and that may be why the question was posed.

To that end, I say train in whatever you want to believe in. Then expand what your believe in and cover your weakness. If you don't want to believe in aikido, there is nothing anyone can say that will change your mind. I have noticed several excellent aikidoka comment on this thread, and if you don't want to listen to them, then you don't want to listen.

In the end, pick your race; but don't enter a sprinter in a marathon.

Aikidoiain
10-14-2004, 01:14 PM
Aikido does indeed work in a fight. I've used it on many occasions. If it doesn't work for you - you're the problem, not the Aikido.

Nuff said.

Iain. :ki: :D

Chris Birke
10-14-2004, 09:31 PM
Until yesterday no one had commented on this in almost a year! Can we get please some fresh threads rehashing this same tired argument?

Nafis Zahir
10-14-2004, 11:06 PM
This is in response to some of the things that I have read. First of all, to say that Aikido has no practical application in the street, is absolutely false! I trained in Kung Fu for 7 years prior to taking up Aikido. But it was a true martial art, and when you learn it that way and understand its principals, you come to learn that in its purest form, it has no place for practical application in street self defense. We had special classes in order to learn how to break down the techniques to a basic form for street application. Aikido, on the other hand, can be directly applied as it is learned, in any street confrontation. To the man who said to try punches and kicks on an Aikidoka, I say this: I have had that happen and the person was not prepared for what happend. I could have easily hurt the person severely, but chose not to. All arts have their pros and cons. What matters is how you apply what you have been taught. As for those who say we can't defend against BJJ or take downs, there again is a misconception. I had to deal with people who tried to use take downs when I did Kung Fu. Most times I did some Chinese leg movements and ended up putting the persons face in the ground. Other times I would get into a very strong chinese stance and they were simply unable to take me down or move me at all. But now that I do Aikido, I no longer have those struggles. People who throw punches and kicks are the easiest to take out. Secondly, no matter what art you study, you will end up in a situation (if you ever have to defend yourself) where the circumstances might not allow you to apply your art as you have learned to. This is where you need and open mind. You can never underestimate anyone or any style, even "street" fighters. You can also never think that things will go as "smoothly" as they do in practice. The last time someone threw a few punches at me, he did connect once or twice, but after that, he was face down on the ground, couldn't move, and was faced with the possibility of having his arm shattered. But you say Aikido is not practical? His punches could have given me a black eye or swollen lip, but his arm would have taken months to heal and the pain would have been severe. The last karateka to throw a punch at me missed and it was open season for me. But I let it slide because he would have gotten hurt badly, he was a friend, and he thought also that Aikido wouldn't work. Lastly, as for the UFC, that is a joke. It is just as much a competition as it is a fight. Although brutal, it does have its limitations. Therefore, the comparison is mute. One the street, the Aikidoka lives by the code of the Samurai - "One attack, One death!" For the true martial artist doesn't spend time comparing arts, but rather finding similarities in each of them and also what can be beneficial to him.

CNYMike
10-14-2004, 11:27 PM
:hypno: :hypno: :hypno: No, not another zombie thread come back to life! No, nooooooooooooooo ....... :hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

And we'll just ignore that I got dragged into one a while back. :D :cool:

Mas Mike

xuzen
10-15-2004, 08:57 PM
All of you none believer... I have trained my aikido to such high level, I can project my ki energy balls and break every bone and sinew in ukes'/enemy bodies. Damm, gotta get out more often and stop playing those PS2 street fighter games...

Boon.

maikerus
10-16-2004, 03:03 AM
All of you none believer... I have trained my aikido to such high level, I can project my ki energy balls and break every bone and sinew in ukes'/enemy bodies.

Boon...you've got some balls, man.

Such was the strength of your key (er...ki) that it caused my mouse to explode and burn my hand the instant I opened this thread to your post. I can smell the burnt flesh now as I type this one handed.

Aarrghh! The PAIN! You caused pain with your Aikido. I can't believe it!

--Michael

KPatton
10-18-2004, 04:34 PM
Anonymous:

It is clear you have little or no understanding of what Aikido is or can be. There are some styles such as Fugakukai, or Karl Geis Ryu that are geared only toward practical application with little or no mysticism or fluff involved. As to grappling or striking; what good does it do you if you can never get within distance to do either before you are on your head? A gentleman with mal intent broke mai on me a month ago and he was on his head before he could even bring his arms up to strike. The only thing that saved him from forcefully kissing the pavement was the fender of a car. As for punches and kicks; I think your body mass dropping at 2 ft/sec sq into the ground generates a lot more power than your feet or hands ever could. My shomen-ate with 250 lbs behind it generates somewhere in the neighborhood of 700lbs of force. THAT my friend is a strike that could easily put you on your back or head depending on where your feet were moving at the time. And that is the first and easiest technique we teach in Karl Geis Ryu.

Michael Neal
10-27-2004, 01:42 AM
Aikido does work, unless everyone who has had a real life encounter is lying. Not likely. But I agree with Paul Watt in that it may not be the fastest way to learn self defense and it most certainly has limitations.

1) Suwariwaza and kokyu waza techniques do not substitute for ground fighting like in Judo, wrestling, or BJJ no matter how much some people want to believe it.
2) Aikido is somewhat lacking when the Aikido distance is breached and it results in standing grappling.
3) Aikido is not practiced enough with full speed realistic strikes.
4) There is a severe shortage of full randori to develop the instincts and skills to deal with a wild and uncooperative partner.
5) And most importantly the fact that so many Aikidoka answer people's questions to the above points by saying "Well just don't let yourself be taken to the ground," "Just don't allow you oppponent to breach your mai," or my favorite "Just don't fight them, walk away." All of these would be great if they were foolproof, but we live in a real world and Aikido is not magic.

You also have to understand Aikido is a philosophy as much as it is a martial art. If you do not like that you will not get much out of Aikido. Now I could also list the limitations of BJJ, Judo, Karate etc. because they all have them as well. You just have to deecide what limitations you are willing to accept and what benefits you like the most.

stuartjvnorton
10-27-2004, 02:36 AM
All of you none believer... I have trained my aikido to such high level, I can project my ki energy balls and break every bone and sinew in ukes'/enemy bodies. Damm, gotta get out more often and stop playing those PS2 street fighter games...

Boon.


lol ki balls, when I go super saiyan 3 I'm gonna SOOOO Aiki your butt...
:D

p00kiethebear
10-27-2004, 03:08 AM
mods. can we start locking threads after a certain length of in activity?

xuzen
10-27-2004, 03:16 AM
mods. can we start locking threads after a certain length of in activity?

Or perhaps move this thread to humour section... it serves a humourous purpose though.

Mark Balogh
10-27-2004, 08:40 AM
Sorry, I'm a bit late in on this one it seems :D , but I'd like to contribute my views anyway. :)

I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight.

True, if you are talking about a fight and not self defence it doesn't prepare you well. I do a bit of "other" training on the side to make sure I don't have a weakness in this area, but real situations in nightclubs or on the street are where I have learn't the most. I wouldn't recommend this kind of live, dangerous training to anyone. :straightf

I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

Your point is sort of valid but in regards to self defense is very one sided. Let's say that you are a small and timid lady who couldn't bring themselves to hit anyone even if they were taught how. The evasion/movement, escapes and techniques of Aikido are very useful and much better than a one off self defence class. She would know that the technique wouldn't cause injury and would be confident/comfortable in doing it. :cool:

I use and teach my Aikido class as a kind of way to loosen up and develop spirit. I try to teach in a very martial manner and make things work against everyone. Students pick up some great self defense skills but people do not come to my class to learn how to fight. :freaky:

Kevin Leavitt
10-27-2004, 09:18 AM
The above argument supposes that BJJ and MMA are "real fights". They are not, they are competitions. You learn good skills, but it is not real fighting, maybe closer to aikido class to real fighting.

I have done both and find my aikido skills very useful in real fighting as much as I have found my BJJ skills.

Both arts offer a great deal of skills in different areas and they are complimentary in nature. I think the arts tend to attract two different personalities, for different reasons

but to say that aikido does not work in a real fight is speaking in ignorance...sorry but it is. People fight, the art and methodology of aikido does not BTW. You fight with what ever you learn and have experienced...trying to label it BJJ, Aikido or anything else is really a big waste of time.

tenshinaikidoka
10-27-2004, 10:04 AM
I can attest to the combat effectiveness of Aikido. I was recently in a fight with a person with a weapon (I am a police officer) and I executed a Kotegaeshi. The person went to the ground and I ended the fight!!! Now that is only one experience and this would not work in all situations, however the effectiveness of Aikido is present. Now, as for going to the ground, I would say anything goes at that point and if I happen to bite or crunch certain parts of someone to get away, so be it, that is my life and I will protect it.

And I do not think the UFC or any other competition is accurate of real life fighting, because we are talking about martial artists competing in a tournament basically. Most people you may fight against probably will not have much, if any martial art training. And if they do, well, they aren't very good martial artists to be picking fights anyway!!!!

Brightsky
10-27-2004, 11:47 AM
It doesnt? Im sure some of the more combative subjects ive arrested may have a different opinion. Im a police officer in a big city and i have used it on one more than one occasion. The biggest problem ive noticed is that other police officers dont know what i may be planning to do and in a sense, interfere with a movement (General consensus is to take the suspect to the ground and everyone seems to try to do it at the same time!). I remember one scuffle in particular where i had sort of "entered" and my partner basically took us all down to the ground! Funny now, wasnt at the time.
Reason I say i have used it more than once is because of one movement i like, the name escapes me at the moment. I grab in a cross hand grab with my right, as if to place their hands behind their back and if they resist, atemi to head area with my left and over their arm and grab my own, hip turn to my left and down, and after they fall, i have a police style pin with my knees, and pull up on the arm (im sure everyone has seen it on cops (i hate that show) where everyone places their knee on some part of the body for leverage). works like a charm.
Also, ive used aspects of aikido such as moving off the line of attack without following through with a technique. Another example, i was chasing a car thief once, and after he wrecked the foot race was on, I wasnt familiar with the area and it was at night, i stumbled on something and instinctively rolled and continued the chase, almost without missing a beat. Glad it worked out that way because i lost track of him and I dont want to think of what could have happened if i was unconscious.
Anyway, enough of my ravings. Oh, and by the way Hi everyone.

CNYMike
10-27-2004, 12:05 PM
Aikido does work, unless everyone who has had a real life encounter is lying. Not likely ....

Agreed.

.... But I agree with Paul Watt in that it may not be the fastest way to learn self defense and it most certainly has limitations.

1) Suwariwaza and kokyu waza techniques do not substitute for ground fighting like in Judo, wrestling, or BJJ no matter how much some people want to believe it.



I'd never believed that, and so far, I haven't trained with anyone who does. Sensei said flat out one night, "We don't do mat work in Aikido." True. But they don't do it in western boxing, either. So what? One either cross-trains in something that fills that void, or just doesn't worry about it.



2) Aikido is somewhat lacking when the Aikido distance is breached and it results in standing grappling.



:confused: What do you mean "aikido distance"? You typically start out far away, but instantly get in very close for joint locks and/or throws. It's a close in system anyway; that's how I see it. Could you clairfy this?

Although not a Jun Fan/JKD person myself, I've trained in and glommed up a few things; from their perspective (I guess), correct maai is at kickboxing range, and Aikidoka IMMEDIATELY crash from that, through Jun Fan trapping tange, and into grappling range; the first thing you do after the action start is get in CLOSE for a lock or throw. So I don't see what the problem is with "breaching aikido distance" because Nage does it during every technique.


3) Aikido is not practiced enough with full speed realistic strikes.


Well, neither is Kali. Of course, full speed for the tip of a stick is something in the neighborhood of 150 miles per hour, if not higher, so we go a lot slower for training, to educate our bodies and muscle memories. Sure, you can build up to someting like full contact stick fighting, which is done wearing padding and armor, but you learn the art at slower speeds. We've also been relatively gentle with throws and joint locks. In fact, if you ever go to a Pentjak Silat Serak seminar with Maha Guru Victor de Thouars, he will yell at you for going too fast!

Aikido's throws can be very hard, and the joint locks and lead to injury. You SHOULD do them slowly, IMHO, for safety. And if the more combative systems I'm studying endorse that approach, then it may not be that bad of an idea after all.


4) There is a severe shortage of full randori to develop the instincts and skills to deal with a wild and uncooperative partner.


So one can cross-train in Judo or BJJ to fill that gap. The lack of full randori in Aikido is because the founder forbade competitions; the concept of a "winner" and a "loser" runs counter to the arts philosophical underpinnings. So criticizing Aikido for not having full randori strikes me as saying the Yankees lost to the Red Sox because they didn't get any field goal kicks in.



5) And most importantly the fact that so many Aikidoka answer people's questions to the above points by saying "Well just don't let yourself be taken to the ground," "Just don't allow you oppponent to breach your mai," or my favorite "Just don't fight them, walk away." All of these would be great if they were foolproof, but we live in a real world and Aikido is not magic.



No, it isn't, and my instructors agree you should learn ground fighting in case you get taken down. But as noted above, there are people who swear by it based on real life encounters, so it's not all garbage either.

Michael Neal
10-27-2004, 01:21 PM
Michael,

What I mean by Aikido distance (maai) is that if your opponent grabs ahold of you, your Aikido has pretty much failed at that point. There are some Aikido techniques that deal with this but only at the initial contact, katadori techniques I believe. Once there is locked in clinching there is not much Aikido that will work at that point.

Unfortunatley there are plenty of Aikidoka that believe otherwise regarding the ground fighting.

There are plenty of Aikidoka that crosstrain, that is why I was referring to "some people" not all. There are also people who think Aikido is a complete martial art that can handle any situation and these are the types of people I am referring to. There are so many who will absolutely refuse to aknowledge the limitations of Aikido, but of course there are others that do and who crosstrain to fill these gaps.

I was never trying to impy that Aikido is "garbage," I wish I had enough time to take it up again, it is a great martial art and philosophy.

And again, other martial arts have weaknesses as well. BJJ has a belief that most fights go to the ground and train almost exclusively for that scenerio, a very bad strategy in my view. Judo is lacking in defense against strikes because of an over emphasis on competition. Karate is weak against almost any grappling etc. etc.

Not picking on Aikido but I just think people should be honest with themselves that it has limitations just like other martial arts.

Niko Salgado
10-27-2004, 02:51 PM
Alright, first I'd like to say this, not to offend anyone, but to just signify "terminology and jargon" tactics. You do not tell a person who's new to Aikido that they have no place in fights. We are "avoiding" conflict. We are "not fighting". Aikido does not work on fights. To most people new, it sounds kinda weird and stupid. Anything of the similar mindset. As friend of a victim of it especially in the medical field, when you try to explain to someone that their friend needs surgery and might possibly die from it because of (insert latin terminology for body parts and procedures), you scare them off, you begin conflict and you lose a customer, and in this case, possibly cause someone to make the wrong decision about prolonging their life. You have to describe things in lamen's terms. Those of us who study extensively have a much higher understanding of what we do and it's fine to talk to each other that way. There is no way you can speed up someone who's naive or ignorant to this type of thinking. Practicing this alone will help you introduce aikido to other people more easily without confusing them.

Second, more than half the thread talked about in one way or another, about comparing Aikido with other marital arts. A late sensei of mine about 5 years ago had told me, "Comparing martial arts is like comparing a mountain and a river. One isn't better than the other, but they are a part of the world." You have to look at the purpose of an art to decide why you'd want to practice it, just like you'd have to look at the purpose of a mountain or a river to use it. You can call it whatever you like, but to the new guy, I would definitely say that Aikido works in fights. In my experience, there is no fair fight, even in boxing, or other competitive sports, because of the idea that there is always someone better. Something fair to me involves an equal chance of winning, like the lottery when every person has only one ticket.

Now, joeysola..

Before I begin with what you've said, let me tell you, Aikido is by no means a martial art that you will get instant gratification out of. If you want to kick ass, right away, go look for another art. Aikido for a lot of people is a way of life, in mind and body. And if you've put up with it for even a year, you'll do fine in life.

In the case of an unavoidable fight, we have to define it first. Many people say that there is no such thing. That is as naive as the former. Not every fight is avoidable, or unavoidable. DO NOT make the assumption that there's always some way to avoid it, because people make mistakes whether it is by choice or not. My biggest examples of unavoidable fights are:

1. A guy in prison- you can use the imagination you can when I say this cliche, "don't drop the soap."

2. 11 year old girl(or any woman) who's a rape victim- women think differently than men. Often times the woman/girl gets kidnapped, doesn't matter what time of day or where they are, it happens.

3. Police- Their job is like a huge fight, always constantly in conflict. Don't worry about not exercising true Aikido, but the aikido techniques alone help them.

4. Robbery/Mugging- If you're being held up, by knife or gun, avoiding this would mean running, most people aren't confident in their instincts to run, what becomes their instinct? Give what they have to offer.

Now, there are several other examples, but I'm still wondering where eye gouging doesn't fall into "fighting". Eye gouging is as good a technique as a knee to the groin. Both will stun the opponent enough for you to either run away a bit or do more damage. The best way to deal with someone sitting on you punching your face out is not to get into it in the first place. If you happen to be in that situation I would still land a punch to the groin or go for the eye gouge. (moral of that tactic, wear a nutcup, or be castrated)

Furthermore, on your latest post, to tell you straight, Aikido has limitations and Aikido is not the ultimate martial art(i've already said why above). The primary limitations of Aikido depends on your experience, but all things except the universe and black holes, have limitations. You decrease these limitations with practice and an open mind.

To conclude, I will tell you this. I personally have had experience with fights, on the street in the downtown area, and further in the past in my school. The most recent of it I would consider an unavoidable fight, because the situation started with a couple guys asking me for some pocket change, which I wasn't going to give because I needed it for the bus. I was allegedly yelled at and approached, but I was already tired from running between catching busses. As much as I want to say I just did Aikido in that fight is only half true, I had a bad day that day and wanted to express my frustrations. One of them used a small stick(the size of 2.5 pencils together) as a weapon, which I had confiscated in the process and performed "the pain of a thousand years."(Quote taken from the anime Naruto) If you really want to know what that means, send me a private message. Most of you probably don't want to know.

It's all depending on circumstance. I hope this would be one of the last of all posts, because it took me an hour to read all the posts before taking another 30 minutes to write this one. All of you have a good day, and joeysola, I hope you get a better understanding now.

CNYMike
10-27-2004, 05:16 PM
Michael,

What I mean by Aikido distance (maai) is that if your opponent grabs ahold of you, your Aikido has pretty much failed at that point. There are some Aikido techniques that deal with this but only at the initial contact, katadori techniques I believe. Once there is locked in clinching there is not much Aikido that will work at that point.


Thanks for clarifying.

I've only been back to Aikido for six months after a sixteen year abscence, duirng which time I got into other arts (which I'm still pursuing). A lot of the grabbing attacks, such as grabs to the shoulder and lapel, seem to be predicated on the assumption that you face a grab-and-strike scenario. Our dojo looked at them a few months ago, where the strike was fire off (which has the added benefit of educating you in how to handle the rear hand). Dealing with the initial grab, obviously, can neutraize that threat (and the clinch you mentioned) before it gets fully expressed, although the operating assumption is the grab-and-strike, not the grab-clinch-whatever.

I think that for other scenarios, Aikido can work BUT(!) Aikidoka wishing to explore those should internalize principles, not techniques. Remember, Aikido is set up so that each attack -- wrist grabs, strikes, etc. -- can be answered by most if not all of the joint locks and throws; and all of the technqiues can be used against almost every attack *and each other.* To respond to kicks, boxing combinations, clinches, etc., you'd have to have not one set response but dope out how to make every technique -- shiho nage, irimi nage, the pins, etc. -- work against them. However, if you internalize Aikido's principles, you can just generate techniques when needed. My Kali instructor teaches on the same principle.

It helps that the way some dojos (including mine) do it is, say, focus one one attack and then variation that you can use against it. How well that works well in the long run, I don't know. But it's a good idea to NOT say "when A happens, do 1;" instead, "When A happens, you can do 1, 2, 3, 4 ..... "


...... There are plenty of Aikidoka that crosstrain, that is why I was referring to "some people" not all. There are also people who think Aikido is a complete martial art that can handle any situation and these are the types of people I am referring to. There are so many who will absolutely refuse to aknowledge the limitations of Aikido .....

Well, there's anecdotal evidence of Aikido teachers successfully dealing with attacks they hadn't formally trained for; I seem to recall O Sensei also thought Aikido techniques could handle any possibility. <shrug> Whether they are the exception or the rule, I couldn't tell you, although AFAIK, every art has its partisans who think "This will handle everything." I'm not losing any sleep over it, and not just because I crosstrain. It's all about what works for you. If Aikido does the trick that one time someone tries to mug you, that's the important thing. And I doubt most muggers are trained MMA fighter who will clinch, go to the ground, try for a juji gatame ....

At least I hope not! :D


..... I was never trying to impy that Aikido is "garbage," I wish I had enough time to take it up again, it is a great martial art and philosophy.


Yeah, at the end of the day that's why I got back into it -- There's Something About Aikido that gets in your blood and stays there. I can justify why I'm doing it and how it fits in with everything else I'm doing, but at the end of it, Aikido's je ne sais quoi got me!


.... I just think people should be honest with themselves that it has limitations just like other martial arts.

That "problem" is probably widespread in the MA. Doubt you can do much about it. One of my instructors compared it to pride in your sports team, or your favorite food, better than anything. Nothing wrong with that.

Then there are those who have the buffet. :)

tenshinaikidoka
10-27-2004, 05:18 PM
Well, I hope my response did not seem like I was saying that Aikido is the end all of the martial arts, and if it did come across that way, I apologize. I know that Aikido does not work in every situation, however if I go to the ground, then I don't hold back, I bite, grab and whatever I have to do to get out of that situation. But my perspective is that it has helped me personally. And I think it is especially important when dealing with multiple agressors. Ok, nuff said. Oh, and I am glad we can all get this out with an open mind and not have a spat as to which art is superior etc. Have a good day all!!!!

oudbruin
10-29-2004, 03:34 PM
RE: comparing aikido to other martial arts- Someone once said"does the Mountain apologies to the river for being too toll, or the river for being too low"
Re: effectiveness-I will testify that AIKIJUTSU technique is effective.
IMHO most of what is practiced at most AIKIDO dojo today is actually AIKIJUTSU- as opposed to AIKIDO, absent a moral, internal framework the techniques are simply technique- nothing more.
To internalize and to truly be aiki as emulated by OSENSEI, is a tall order. I suggest it would be like an art student studying Picasso for 25 years, yes, he can paint like Picasso, but he is not Picasso. To do a technique for the sake of technique is not AIKIDO, yes AIKIDO is about technical mastery, but is also about a MORAL, internal framework of respect and honor towards all life. Perhaps, we should seek that which was sought by Osensei, rather than simply trying to imitate what he did.
Maybe, because I'm a cancer survivor that I look at the value of life differently than many. I have seen too many posts talking about the flash of the spectacular throws and high break falls- yet few , too few, have talked about true aiki situations of harmonizing with others in conflict situations.
If you feel a need to punch and kick, to dislocate someones arm or bust a head - I suggest that AIKIDO may not be for you. Maybe you might want to study KravMaga or some other really violant form. Better yet , go out and buy yourself a shinken and carry it around all day along with your 357 magnum...WOW, you'll really be scary than.
There is a story about a very advanced Sword Master who would visit Osensei at his Dojo, his intent was to challenge Osensei- who sensing the underlying intent, always managed to apply ample volumes of SAKE WAZA to the esteemed visitor. The visitor was happy and so was Osensei. As both would catch a good buzz- I think that is true aiki.
Likewise, Tohei Sensei, tells of a AIKI situation on a train.
bottom line-
AIKIDO IS NOT SIMPLY TECHNIQUE.
I

Lorien Lowe
10-31-2004, 01:45 AM
[QUOTE=Michael Neal]Michael,

...if your opponent grabs ahold of you, your Aikido has pretty much failed at that point. There are some Aikido techniques that deal with this but only at the initial contact, katadori techniques I believe.


Katadori being a shoulder grab. But you forgot aidori (opposite side wrist grab), and katatedori (same side wrist grab), and katadori menuchi (shoulder grab and punch), and ryokatatedori (both hands grabbed, and ryokatadori (both shoulders grabbed), and ushiro ryokatadori (both shoulders grabbed from behind), and ushiro ryokatatedori (both wrists grabbed from behind), and morotedori (attacker grabs one arm with both hands)... where have you been training that you only did katadori techniques?

Kevin Leavitt
10-31-2004, 02:01 AM
You must remember that Aikido is a DO not a SU. That means it's primary concern is teaching principles not tactics or techniques. The principles are universal. Meaning they exist in all the arts from BJJ, JUDO, Jujutsu, and others.

So, IMHO, to say that Aikido does not work once motion stops is true on one hand, but on the other hand it is not true.

I believe Michael is illuding to the point that motion must be present in order for aikido to work. That is true. Once your opponent anchors on you, it is pretty much a stalemate and you must figure out what to do to restart motion.

However, to say that once your opponent grabs ahold of you, aikido has failed....no I would not say that....it is an oversimplification.

We do tend to practice large movements in aikido, and yes I would agree, once the circles and motions get smaller (as in a clinch) most aikidoka are not comfortable dealing with the smaller movements. That does not mean aikido does not work though! It means the aikidoka does not work!

The principles are there. I use my "aikido" all the time when in the clinch, or guard. They are universal in nature.

You must not focus, IMHO, on the SU aspects in a DO dojo. You are there to establish a base and understanding of principle. Once you graduate to the big leagues and have an understanding of the principles are you free to explore all that Aikido has to offer from it's methodology.

Ask me sometime how I learned the hard way when Saotome Sensei flattened my face against the wall when I tried to prove that aikido did not work from a walled clinch!

Mark Balogh
11-02-2004, 11:05 AM
Oh something else to add, I am friends with a very good Aikidoka who used to be a street wise boxer and Park Policeman. He got tired of using boxing to sort out attackers because of the blood and teeth etc he had to clean up after!!! He turned to Aikido and used it very effectively (granted his Aikido is class) in several situations (he's been shot at and had knives pulled on him and all sorts!!!!). :crazy: :D

scorpioet2
11-18-2004, 09:03 PM
Here is my opinion and comment on your statement and Aikido in general as I have experienced it:

I agree with you in general. Aikido does not have mat work in the sense you describe it. I was taught that Aikido was for health. And it is. It can also be an effective method of control. The correctional facilities officers in my town used to use aikido restraint techniques on the inmates there. So, the point of this is HOW YOU TRAIN. If I train for health reasons, my aikido will seem to lack that which you are seeking within it. If I trained for defensive purposes, you would see a very different version. I had the opportunity to train for 3 years regularly with shihan level instructors, regular shihans sent from Japan, and a first generation student under O'Sensei, who happened to be the oldest living instructor at the time. (90yrs young). So I saw the real thing. BUT...what was taught and practiced was done in an Aikido dojo with aikidoists. NOT non practictioners. SO therein lies the issue. I came to see that my aikido would not work on my friends because I had not trained it for that type of environment. In the dojo, its uke and nage and both help each other to learn. with my friends and fellow martial artists, its a different ball game. I have had to relearn how to apply the concepts and techniques in an environment where the opponent does not willingly go along with it. And by that I mean, in the dojo the technique works great on a fellow student, because that person has unknowingly trained themselves to fall or roll or give a certain way when you apply your technique. On the street it dont happen that way. Thats why it probably seems so difficult to do your techniques on brand new students. So "how you train, is how you react. And how you react is how you live." While I have no doubt that the founders grandson can handle himself quite well, (I have participated in workshops of his), if he was to enter into the UFC, he would be a fool to rest on his laurels and not cross train with non aikidoists. He would HAVE to in order to understand how his technique would have to vary in order for it to work. Look at it another way. Most everyone has been on a boat one time or another, but a sailor LIVES on his ship. Every moment of his day and night is affected by the oceans movements. So he learns how to ajdust and handle it or he cant live his daily life. A simple act such as walking changes to reflect how the ship moves and sways, even little things like sitting in a chair become different. So he trains himself to handle these things that normal people take for granted. So it must be with Aikido. I believe that you must first learn the techniques and the underlying concepts surrounding this art, then you must learn to understand it and how it fits into life, then you must learn how to apply it. (and this goes also to commenting about its usage) Theory and application are always two different things. Most of what you see and do in the dojo is theory. The true application must come later after you understand theory. So, basically, this discussion boils down to this.....Theory and application are two different aspects. IF all you have is theory, then you become what the chinese call, Brocade Fist. Beautiful flowing movements, but no substance. It takes application to rid yourself of the Brocade Fist.

Think about it.

rachel
11-20-2004, 01:46 AM
I understand when people initially doubt Aikido and it's ability to actually work. It, at first, seems to be an overly gentle art that won't give you any actual ability of self defense. I understand why people think this, but after years of training, I hope that you don't have these questions or doubts any longer. I've been studying Aikido since childhood and I've used it a few times. I used Aikido in a fight as a teenager, and I think it kept me from being harmed. Most of all though, I've gained mental and physical self-control from Aikido that has helped me in many situations. That is very important!

andylucas
11-20-2004, 07:28 PM
i don't know what styles most of you take, but we fight every class running fronts, back grabs staticgrabs,yoke,sho,tsuki.theres no set time your ready or your wacked, stabed or thrown on the ground. our school is a self defence school ,
theres no gimmys you earn everything you achive.
the police instructors all train here so i guess it works for law enforcement.you have to give any ma a chance well beyond green belt to make a call on efectiveness. sorry i'm tired of other mas bashing us. this is better, that is better.that doesn't work you need to do 2,3,4 other mas [at the same time ] to defend your self what? how about learning 1 really well .
well my rant is over now

Don
11-20-2004, 11:05 PM
Well, did anybody (at least in the States) see the brawl that occurred at the Pistons NBA game on 11/19/04? THAT was a fight. A boxing match is not a fight. UFC is not a fight. What you saw in that brawl was more like the kind of situation from which aikido techniques were drawn. Somebody is pissed at you and they are intent on hitting you. They aren't jabbing at you or looking for openings. They want to hurt you. Would aikido techniques work there. Probably, because no one is concerned about points or has the time to look for an advantage. They are concerned about doing something to hurt you, and they aren't going to waste time looking for an advantage. Does aikido work in a sport situation where people have time to look for an advantage. Perhaps if modified, but that's not where aikido techniques came from. So, what is a mugging more like? A brawl or a sport match? You be the judge..

Kevin Kelly
11-21-2004, 12:46 AM
Boy, what an old thread. After reading a couple of pages I finally looked at the post dates. Someone decided to revive this thread after a year and a half silence. Sheesh, I think the original poster was a troll and I think he got the responses he wanted. He didn't seem to be reading any of the posts when he was making his replies. Oh well. My two cents.

Hagen Seibert
11-21-2004, 04:56 PM
hail the most successful troll on aikiweb
he´ll make the 200

JMartinez
11-22-2004, 05:17 PM
I have studied several martial arts and to tell you the truth the most effective in my opinion without a doubt is Aikido. I was in the Marine Corps and was stationed in Japan for two years. I have seen Japanese Police take down those Big Bad Gaijin(Americans) in a matter of seconds using Aikido Techniques. I have gotten in a couple of fights not by choice, but in self defense and yes Aikido does work. To quote Rickson Gracie on multiple attackers: What is your favorite multiple-opponent technique?


Rickson: My Sig-Sauer P220 .45 caliber pistol [laughing]. It is the best "technique" in this situation, I believe.


FC: Are you a good shot?


Rickson: Yes.


ckson Gracie on defence against multiple attackers:

The Molinjir
11-22-2004, 07:30 PM
Aikido, at least at my level (5th kyu) is not that great a way to defend yourself, if you stick to the exact techniques, but if you simply stick with the basic principals of the technique, I have found it to work.

Almost as much as actually technique, my skills in simply dodging and blocking have improved immensely since I started Aikido.

Besides, wristlocks are wonderful for taking a knife away from somone :D

~Molinjir

Bronson
11-22-2004, 08:30 PM
I think martial arts in general are terrible for fights. In the 13 years that I've been studying MA I haven't been able to get into a single physical confrontation....what a ripoff :rolleyes:

Bronson

xuzen
11-22-2004, 08:43 PM
I think martial arts in general are terrible for fights. In the 13 years that I've been studying MA I haven't been able to get into a single physical confrontation....what a ripoff :rolleyes:

Bronson

Yeah, I too demand my money back for all the time and effort wasted. I wanna kick some a#s to know that I am a tough guy. Anybody wanna meet me at the soccer field during recess? Oh sorry I gotta ask my mommy first, sorry. :rolleyes:

Zato Ichi
11-22-2004, 08:52 PM
Yeah, I too demand my money back for all the time and effort wasted. I wanna kick some a#s to know that I am a tough guy. Anybody wanna meet me at the soccer field during recess? Oh sorry I gotta ask my mommy first, sorry. :rolleyes:
Ah... this reminds me of a song....
How many people wanna kick some ass?
I do! I do!
:D

rachel
11-23-2004, 04:43 AM
Boy, what an old thread.
Well, with such an offensively inccorect title, how could this thread die?

Justin Gaar
02-28-2005, 10:38 AM
Why am I always the last to reply to a good thread? :disgust: Anyway First off, I am a very nice guy. Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations.
Maybe the reason no-one will admit it because it's not true. Aikido has ZERO limitations to its applications in real life. It appears that in your haste to create a good thread to feed your ego, you neglected to put ANY thought into what the replies from dedicated aikido-kai would be. evileyes
Sayonara,
Justin Gaar

mathewjgano
03-01-2005, 12:18 AM
I know this thread has been articulated by people more understanding than myself...and probably been done to death, but this topic is interesting to me so I'll write my thoughts anyway.
To the fellow who started this threat let me first say there are a million forms of "Aikido." You need to realize there's more to a thing than just a name. I've been to a few different Aikidojo and none of them were quite the same, despite using the same names for similar movements.
Aikido has many practical lessons. How to fall and not get hurt is a pretty darn usefull thing, for starters. I've trained with an eastern European judoka who almost went to the olympics and who nearly tore my arm off but for my adequate ukemi. I had a roomate who studied traditional Muy Thai in addition to being a bit of a brawler (by the way, kick-boxers do a LOT more than just kick, trust me) who loved to try and use submission holds on me. Funny thing is he rarely got them to work. What does this all mean? Nothing. The name of your chosen martial art means jack squat. What matters most is how good your training is, and how good you are as a student (ie-how you apply yourself).
Regarding strikes and submission holds: atemi is a strike; if I slip your punch and strike you in the floating ribs, you'll feel it, trust me; if you grab me by the leg I might just land on you with my knee. What matters is who knows how to use their body best, not what style you study. Style means almost nothing.
Maybe it's true most Aikidoka will never protect themselves from an attacker and maybe it's not. I don't know most Aikidoka, but I know what I'm capable of and if someone attacks me, it's quite possible it will be more correct to say my lack of ability is what will hurt them, not what style I train in.
Take care,
Matt

samurai_kenshin
03-28-2005, 06:33 PM
Hey Joe,
Where did you here that in no form of Aikido do practitioners grapple or strike? That is inaccurate. I happen to have practiced one or two things in my short life(see profile) and can tell you that Aikido can be integrated into real fights just as any other art. Not all Aikidoka believe that Aikido is the one and only, just like you´d likely take a severe beating from a friend and me if you used only BJJ. At a high enough level, perhaps Aikido can be considered complete because what you see happen in NHB would theoretically not happen were you skilled enough in Aikido, at least not in the way featured on TV. Your joints move the same direction no matter what "style" you´re in. Therefore you could use Aikido from the floor, standing, sitting, or otherwise. Maybe you shouldn´t judge a book by it´s cover.
My two bits. :)
At your service,
Christopher
I've got the same question. Have you never heard of rondori (spelling?)?

Michael Neal
03-29-2005, 07:56 AM
why does this topic keep getting ressurected?

CNYMike
03-29-2005, 09:58 AM
why does this topic keep getting ressurected?

Tell me about it! :crazy: :hypno: :crazy: :hypno: :rolleyes: :)

Man of Aiki
03-30-2005, 08:14 PM
Joeysola saw two aikido guys lose fights in the UFC? And from this he assumes it won't work in a real fight?

Combat sports and real fighting are not the same thing.

I once looked into competing in a local NHB event and discovered that about half the Aikido techs. I know would be considered illegal. Sankyo, for instance, with it's manipulation of the hand would be illegal in almost all NHB events, including UFC. Same with Nikkyo.

Secondly, you fight like you train. Many Aikido schools do not train in a manner in which uke attacks nage balls to the wall, full force and full speed and full intent for more than 10 or 15 seconds.

I did see one of the fights that JoeySola alludes to, the one in which the black Aididokist was quickly dispatched. From what I saw of him, I sincerely doubt this Aikidoka was even Dan level. He looked to be about a 2nd or 3rd Kyu.

Apparently, he had never trained to deal with somebody like the slim, smaller grappler that faced him, who simply charged him, shot in low, wrapped up his legs, took him down, got on top and pounded him five or six times on the back of the head until he tapped out.

Some Aikido schools put a lot of emphasis on teaching their students to counter leg shoots and low tackles and some don't. I've seen some schools where they don't even teach students to deal with anything other than a simple low front kick.

And I've seen some that teach student's to deal with front kicks, side kicks, spinning kicks, low kicks, high kicks, etc.

Different school emphasize different things.

But to characterize an entire art as 'not working' in a 'real fight' because you watched a sport fight where a low-level student was quickly overwhelmed makes no sense. As far as I can tell, while some very high ranked wrestlers and Judo and Juijitsu students have competed in NHB, there is no record of a 3rd or 4th Dan Aikido student appearing in one of these things.

That could be for two reasons:

Aikido's philosophy discourages competition.

And Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained person without risk of serious injury.Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly.

By that, I mean even if a highly ranked Aikdioka compteted in one of these sporting events, and ended up facing a highly ranked wrestler, the wrestler still has no training on how to take an irimi-nage fall safely. He does not know how to take a kotegaeshi throw safely. If he rushes the Aikidoka and gets thrown with a powerful kokyu nage breath throw, there is no guarantee he will land safely.

Over half of the time in the first year or so of Aikdio training involves just learning to take the techniques safely. Do you realize how many serious injuries there would be in Aikido schools across this country if the first time a student stepped on the mat, even one with kickboxing, muay thai, or juijitsu experience, and the instructor had him attack at full speed, full force, and threw him full speed and full force?

So an Aikidoka competing in a NHB event would realize right away that he cannot apply Aikdio full force to his untrained opponent. So many throws he can do are of only limited value.

What's left? Most throws aren't a good idea, what's left? Well, the control holds! Joint locks! Only the Aikidoka remembers he can't use any finger grabs or joint manipulations that involve bending or twisting the hand. So if the opponent rushes him, he can't simply reach out and bend some fingers back and take the opponent to his knees and then pin him.

Now if the Aikidoka simply doesn't care about the safety or the well-being of his opponent, he could use a full force Irimi- Nage or a Shiho-Nage on his opponent. The Aikidoka could think, hey, if he lands on his head or breaks his leg, that's his problem! But by the time a student reaches 3rd or 4th Dan level, is he going to be the kind of person that doesn't care about his opponent? I think not.

The above helps to explain why I think no advanced Aikido student has ever appeared in a NHB event. Not to say that one never will. But if one ever does, I'm sure he will be well aware of the limitations he faces.

manofaiki

Morpheus
03-30-2005, 08:44 PM
why does this topic keep getting ressurected?

That's because non-Aikidoka trolls keep bringing it back. It makes them feel more secure in whatever system they study even though the opinion is just that, an opinion and it's based on ignorance.

The vast majority of the time it's from people who are in striking systems and want to be Bruce Lee, or Van Damme, or some other movie star.

Hardware
03-30-2005, 09:05 PM
I think a practitioner of any particular art or style, if entering a "NHB" event, would fair better if they simply fight without trying to use specific techniques from their art.

They can use what they've learned, but it isn't likely that their opponent will cooperate by replicating scenarios that they've trained for back in their home dojo.

That said, a practitioner of Aikido will probably have to adapt more than people trained in some other arts (i.e. Thai boxing).

A few months ago, a black belt in...I think... Kenpo visited our dojo for practice. Following the practice, this guest was invited to show us all some of the techniques from his style.

One of the members of our dojo (a 5th kyu at the time - and someone who, incidentally isn't very gifted or coordinated) acted as uke. Coming from a more..."confrontational" style than Aikido, the guest started to get a little rough and our uke resisted back.

They sort of got into a friendly competition and our 5th kyu basically was able to control the Kenpo black belt. Granted, this wasn't all out fighting with strikes to the face, etc, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well the Aikido techniques worked in the face of resistence, from someone with presumably much more training in a different art.

Chris Birke
03-30-2005, 09:10 PM
The reason this keeps coming up is because people keep believing this:

"By that, I mean even if a highly ranked Aikdioka compteted in one of these sporting events, and ended up facing a highly ranked wrestler, the wrestler still has no training on how to take an irimi-nage fall safely. He does not know how to take a kotegaeshi throw safely. If he rushes the Aikidoka and gets thrown with a powerful kokyu nage breath throw, there is no guarantee he will land safely.

Over half of the time in the first year or so of Aikdio training involves just learning to take the techniques safely. Do you realize how many serious injuries there would be in Aikido schools across this country if the first time a student stepped on the mat, even one with kickboxing, muay thai, or juijitsu experience, and the instructor had him attack at full speed, full force, and threw him full speed and full force?

So an Aikidoka competing in a NHB event would realize right away that he cannot apply Aikdio full force to his untrained opponent. So many throws he can do are of only limited value. "

On a seperate note, I wish this were always true, but it isn't:
"But by the time a student reaches 3rd or 4th Dan level, is he going to be the kind of person that doesn't care about his opponent? I think not. "

Also, although small joint manipulations are illegal (fingerlocks, toe locks), wrist manipulations are fair game. The reason you so rarely see them in UFC is because they are easy to defend. This is the same reason you see very few standing arm bars.

I have actually seen a few in grappling and nhb fights (and even gotten a few in rolling) but they are rare.

There is actually a depth to the argument here.

If nikkyo doesn't work in ufc, will it work on the street? People have found that yes, very often it will, despite the fact that it's laughable against a cage fighter in a cage. Why is this?

In fact, you can often even no touch throw people on the street (or at least get them to fall down without touching them... you can debate what a true no touch throw is on that other thread). Again, that doesn't quite work the same against a trained and prepped duelist.

etc.

It's a very valid thread and that's the reason it keeps coming up.

Its just too crowded with ego and ignorance to ever be very useful. - I'd rather see it rehashed in a new thread.

Hardware
03-30-2005, 09:13 PM
...Aikido's philosophy discourages competition.

And Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained person without risk of serious injury.Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly...

Very good points. Domo Arigato!

Man of Aiki
03-30-2005, 09:43 PM
Howard Dyke;

Domo Arigato right back 'atcha, pal! :D

Man of Aiki

Kevin Leavitt
03-31-2005, 12:16 PM
I use aikido principles all the time in NHB training and fighting. Even some techniques. But to define one's self by a "style" or technique, especially if it is a "DO" is really pointless.

Those that say it does not work do not understand the spectrum (breadth and depth) of the art, equally, I believe you will also find that most do not also understand NHB type fighting as well.

Makes for good conversation, but I always wonder if people are sincerely looking to explore the art or simply looking for an argument to apease their ego.

CNYMike
03-31-2005, 07:51 PM
I use aikido principles all the time in NHB training and fighting. Even some techniques. But to define one's self by a "style" or technique, especially if it is a "DO" is really pointless.

Those that say it does not work do not understand the spectrum (breadth and depth) of the art, equally, I believe you will also find that most do not also understand NHB type fighting as well.

Makes for good conversation, but I always wonder if people are sincerely looking to explore the art or simply looking for an argument to apease their ego.

Oddly enough, I was surfing rec.martial-arts and stumbled on a thread where some BJJ/Shoot/Grappler types who cross-train in Aikido, or who have done an Aikido, offer an appraisal that's not all bad. They're not necessarily happy with the cooperative nature of thr training (which IMHO is a bit like saying the Yankees coulda beat the Red Sox if they'd just go a field goal kick in, but I digress), but they seem to like how well the techiques can work, paritcularly on those who don't train for them. :p Here is the link to google's archive of that thread (I hope):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/browse_thread/thread/85f13cd8231cc8e3/3ddf0d8257c9d59f?q=Aiki+Evolution&rnum=1#3ddf0d8257c9d59f

Nice to have some endorsement! :)

Mike

Hardware
03-31-2005, 08:15 PM
...They're not necessarily happy with the cooperative nature of thr training...

Well, the training pretty much has to be cooperative in light of the fact that

...Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained {or arguably, trained} person without risk of serious injury. Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly...

Comments inside the {} were added by me.

Dazzler
04-01-2005, 06:24 AM
Looks like this has moved away from the nonsense title of this thread to more of an 'aikido v NHB/BJJ' angle.

This has been done pretty much to death but for what its worth heres a couple of thoughts.

Are you comparing like for like? Most people thinking of NHB think of the likes of Ken Shamrock, Oleg Takarov and the Gracies.

When they think of aikido they think of the local sensei, or if they have wider exposure they think of the famous deschi or O'Sensei himself.

is this a fair comparison? The former train specifically for head to head, 1 v 1 cage scenario. No weapons, No extra opponents joining in to defend their buddies, just them and the athlete in front of them.

In this scenario no way does aikido compete. The conditioning of this cream of the crop is unbelievable whereas the condition of many of the leading sensei who demonstrate rather than practice is questionable.

Lets also not forget the likes of Tank Abbot who could beat superior technical prowess with a bit of boxing, a bit of wresting, a beergut to be proud of and a heck of a lot of attitude.

He beat some top NHB competitors...and while he has been undone in the ring by some of them he's certainly someone I'd prefer on my side rather than not.

My point here is that its the nature of the artist rather than the art that proves decisive.

Does any of this invalidate aikido? not to me. Remove the rules and restrictions of NHB and aikido ....just like every other art ...has its advantages and disadvantages.

In my training we are taught that the techniques of aikido are less important than the bases they deliver...kamai, Maai, shisei, kokyu-ho ...relationship/position, distance, posture, breathing. Further to this we are also taught that the core of aikido is irimi and atemi.

Apply enter and strike to the right target, from the right position with correct breathing pattern and you should have a form that is pretty effective. Don't get hung up on whether it is ikkyo nikkyo kotagaeshi or whatever. If the bases are right it will work..

Blend this attack with an oppenents moves and you have aikido.

Of course this is conjecture. Aikido seems to be more about avoiding fighting rather than fighting so in the main I'm talking about potential here.

By having this wider objective Aikido makes it harder for its exponents to excel against those who focus on a specific skill.

I include 'fighting' as a specific skill.

If the thread said who would you bet on in a fight? top MMA or senior aikidoka I'd put my money on ken shamrock.

As a person I prefer to train to control violence rather than to react with it. I've practiced jujitsu, vale tude, boxing and wrestling to assimilate some of what they offer. Right now I'm working more on my aikido.

I recognise the plusses and minuses of this - I'd say chose the art that suits you best and don't get fooled by mystique or by cable TV coverage.

Just my thoughts.

D

batemanb
04-01-2005, 07:02 AM
If the thread said who would you bet on in a fight? top MMA or senior aikidoka I'd put my money on ken shamrock.

I don't usually watch UFC, it doesn't hold much interest for me, but I do confess to seeing the Ken Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz bout last week (happened to be on whilst channel hopping). Ken Shamrock took a serious pasting, but like you said, I'd still rather have him on my side than trying to take my head off :D.


rgds

Bryan

Dazzler
04-01-2005, 08:14 AM
Hi Bryan

I don't follow it too much myself but will watch if nothing else is on ...the feeling I've picked up is that Kens focus has been on the big bucks in WWF while TO name seems to be mentioned regularly by those that do watch it as a top quality guy.

I feel you just gotta give credit to all of them just for being there.

Likewise...I apply same to some of the elder statesmen still pushing aikido after 50 or 60 years.

When most guys are in bath chairs with a blanket and a nurse they are still on the mat doing their best.

I say guys cos I don't know of any ladies with similar experience yet...sure there may be some but I don't know any...so nobody divert the wrath of the Equality thread on me!

Cheers

D

Kevin Leavitt
04-01-2005, 12:21 PM
Brian Cates wrote:

...Aikido cannot safely be used full force on an untrained {or arguably, trained} person without risk of serious injury. Aikido involves full force throws and manipulation of joints that are dangerous and can easily kill or maim if the technique is received incorrectly...

This does not apply to ALL Aikido type techniques. Conversely this applies to ALL styles of martial arts, they all have things you cannot do full force on an untrained person.

Not saying you are implying the following, but I have seen this argument made before that aikido is too lethal to train hard or full force. That is not true. It can be and I have trained this way. However, it is best to train slowly and develop your posture etc. I think aikido typically spends alot of time training this way and it is good.

Even in BJJ you train slow and methodically to develop good habits. They just tend to spend much more time on randori from my experiences. Most BJJers have different objectives than Aikidoka so naturally they emphasize different things.

Doesn't mean either art is any less or more effective, it simply depends on your desired goals longterm, shorterm etc.

Michael Neal
04-01-2005, 02:31 PM
This topic was started almost 5 years ago

jester
04-01-2005, 02:35 PM
And it's still a question that's relevant today.

Ron Tisdale
04-01-2005, 02:36 PM
I'm sure it will be going strong five years from now... :)

Bodhi
04-01-2005, 03:47 PM
Thats why we should all have a gathering once a year like i suggested! Its easy to have all this theory behind a keyboard but put all these people togather, introduce some different training situations, scenerios etc. Bring some people in from different systems, or just the average guy off the street that you know can fight Try this over and over again until we can see what does and does not work for real, repeatedly, against different experienced resisting training partners using empty hand and weapons at full speed with minimal protective equipment. This stuff about Aikido or any other art being too dangerous if trained full force is a cop out. I will train with ANYONE full force, no matter what art or rank, if it means i can get some real world results and become a better martial artist. The toughest training i ever came across was not in any martial arts school anyways, it was in my own backyard with a bunch of guys from the old neighborhood. I guess its more fun to talk about the feats of the old masters or what teacher can do this or that rather than actually get togather and see whats up for real. Oh well, it was just an idea i thought might be fun.

Jory Boling
04-01-2005, 03:55 PM
Thats why we should all have a gathering once a year like i suggested! .... Oh well, it was just an idea i thought might be fun.

if you start a new thread "Let's plan aikiweb campout to test street value of aikido" maybe you'll get more nods.

Jory

Justin Gaar
04-07-2005, 10:20 AM
That's because non-Aikidoka trolls keep bringing it back. It makes them feel more secure in whatever system they study even though the opinion is just that, an opinion and it's based on ignorance.

The vast majority of the time it's from people who are in striking systems and want to be Bruce Lee, or Van Damme, or some other movie star.

Really though, who is a non-aikidoka. I mean i know what it means and all, i'm not ignorant. But some people, non-aikidoka or not have opinions that to them matter and ultimately thats all that matters. Is that they feel it matters to them. But seriously, I think this thread is getting out of hand.

samurai_kenshin
04-07-2005, 11:21 AM
Really though, who is a non-aikidoka. I mean i know what it means and all, i'm not ignorant. But some people, non-aikidoka or not have opinions that to them matter and ultimately thats all that matters. Is that they feel it matters to them. But seriously, I think this thread is getting out of hand.
I'm being a bit annoyed by this thread too. I have seen first hand, the practical application of aikido, and that was in a street fight when my cousin was nearly mugged in front of my house. He used a nice shihonage from kata dori on the first guy, and the second guy he dropped with tsuki kotegaishi (i was young, so i have no idea how he set up for it, but now that i do aikido i sort of understand). Needless to say the other two guys were so shocked they ran away.

Kevin Leavitt
04-07-2005, 01:44 PM
Oddly enough, I was surfing rec.martial-arts and stumbled on a thread where some BJJ/Shoot/Grappler types who cross-train in Aikido, or who have done an Aikido, offer an appraisal that's not all bad. They're not necessarily happy with the cooperative nature of thr training (which IMHO is a bit like saying the Yankees coulda beat the Red Sox if they'd just go a field goal kick in, but I digress), but they seem to like how well the techiques can work, paritcularly on those who don't train for them. :p Here is the link to google's archive of that thread (I hope):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/browse_thread/thread/85f13cd8231cc8e3/3ddf0d8257c9d59f?q=Aiki+Evolution&rnum=1#3ddf0d8257c9d59f

Nice to have some endorsement! :)

Mike

I find they are not happy with the cooperative nature of the art because they do not have breadth of experience. Your average person training in MMA/NHB is in teens to early 20s. They tend to focus on "combat effectiveness" on what works 80% of the time. Nothing wrong with that, but I find that in the long run it is helpful to train slow and methodical. It wasn't until I started studying aikido that I unlearned some bad habits. Some of these guys are a little shocked when they see me and my MMA instructor who it very good btw go at it. It is slow methodical and somewhat graceful, but powerful at the same time.

For the most part they haven't taken the time to understand the training methodology behind aikido, nor are most of them ready for it at that stage of their life or development.

MitchMZ
04-07-2005, 02:25 PM
When working with people with street experience, you can learn just how effective a lot of the techniques/principles are. For instance, I find fast, strong, intrusive irimi movements really suprise people (not to mention totally breach their center.) I think Aikido techniqes are so effective because they are so unique. (AKA: hardly anyone has ever seen them before.)

I have a friend that was a seasoned street fighter that was interested in what I was taking for martial arts; so, I asked him to attack (grab) and I entered in, then told him to try and elbow me in the kidney...I then cut down on the inside of the striking elbow and did tenkan and then executed irmi nage movement...stopping right as I broke his balance so that he didn't fall. His comment, "@#$%, that could really hurt if you did that to someone on concrete!"

Hagen Seibert
04-07-2005, 06:30 PM
YEAH
This thread is unterminable: It will still go on when we´re all dead.

In a way, it´s a strength of AikiWeb.

Bodhi
04-08-2005, 04:31 PM
"I have a friend that was a seasoned street fighter that was interested in what I was taking for martial arts; so, I asked him to attack (grab) and I entered in, then told him to try and elbow me in the kidney...I then cut down on the inside of the striking elbow and did tenkan and then executed irmi nage movement...stopping right as I broke his balance so that he didn't fall. His comment, "@#$%, that could really hurt if you did that to someone on concrete!"

Next time you work with your friend, just ask him to attack, dont tell him how and where to attack! Let him attack with his own intentions, fullspeed, wherever and however he wants, without you knowing what he is going to do!

Morpheus
04-09-2005, 09:34 AM
Really though, who is a non-aikidoka. I mean i know what it means and all, i'm not ignorant. But some people, non-aikidoka or not have opinions that to them matter and ultimately thats all that matters. Is that they feel it matters to them. But seriously, I think this thread is getting out of hand.

Someone who doesn't practice Aikido, and doesn't understand the effectiveness of Aikido. Their opinion may matter to them but does that make it a valid opinion?

If I say you have three tails and no eyes, does that make it so?

Jake Karlins
04-09-2005, 03:43 PM
I don't know if this addresses all of the issues here, I won't read through the billion or so posts in this thread... :p ...but one potential issue with training can be dealing with non-Aikido style attacks (punches that aren't like sword-thrusts, wrestling tackles), and of course, the principles for defense are still the same, but saying that and actually training with nontraditional attacks are two different things. Anyway, what I really meant to say when I started this post- I just took a class today where my sensei went over dealing with boxing style jabs, tackles, trips, in general mixing it up, and it was not only a lot of fun, but it felt like good training. My point- good to mix the more traditional training with training in how to deal with other styles of attack. And may this thread run forever! All hail the invincible thread! :hypno: :D

wendyrowe
04-09-2005, 04:16 PM
...I just took a class today where my sensei went over dealing with boxing style jabs, tackles, trips, in general mixing it up... Could you tell us which techniques you used against each type of attack? People here and on different threads on different forums ask which to use, so it would be very interesting to hear which your sensei recommended.

MitchMZ
04-09-2005, 11:51 PM
Aikido has proven itself effective for many things. It has given me purpose and direction in my life, as well as made me a better overall martial artist. I have nothing to prove to anyone because I've witnessed Aikido techniques being used effectively by people that had a relatively low amount of training in the dojo. I've seen skeptical people humbled, as well as Aikidoka humbled by people with no formal training.

To be honest, Aikido reminds me a lot of Judo or wrestling...you have to have good timing and technique, because more often than not even a person with minimal amount of training will be able to resist a throw if they see it coming. You shouldn't be "trying" to perform a technique...it should mesh with the movement of their body and yours. Easier said than done. :(

Personally, I feel very few people have actually gotten to the level of say, true Judo or Aikido, etc. I know I'm not even remotely close. If I ever get shodan I still won't even be close. I'll just have a very adequate command of the basics at that level.

samurai_kenshin
05-07-2005, 01:38 PM
Y'know what would really be the post to end all posts in this thread? It's not Aikido that doesn't work, But your aikido doesn't work!

ChrisHein
05-07-2005, 02:08 PM
Well for that to be said "your Aikido doesn't work" first someone needs to prove to the world that AIKIDO dose in fact "work", if we had one sound example of it working. If there were a street fight dominated by and Aikidoka caught on the news, or an Aikidoka entered a professional competition. Something besides myths and rumors. Again I mean working from a basically empty handed fighting situation. Lots of people know it works to make people happier more productive human beings, most of use have seen this in the Dojo, so no one asks dose it work in that perspective. I personally know it works in a weapons fight, maybe I should find a video of that and put it up.

-Chris Hein

aikigirl10
05-08-2005, 09:38 AM
I dont see how in Gods name u can find Brazilian jiujitsu effective and not aikido.. makes no sense.
-paige

ChrisHein
05-08-2005, 01:38 PM
Hahahahah, that statement has to be a joke.
Look at what happend in martial arts history about 12 years ago.

-Chris Hein

Bodhi
05-08-2005, 02:59 PM
"I dont see how in Gods name u can find Brazilian jiujitsu effective and not aikido.. makes no sense."
-paige

What color is the sky in your world? :crazy:


"Hahahahah, that statement has to be a joke.
Look at what happend in martial arts history about 12 years ago."

-Chris Hein


Chris, people dont want to talk about what really happens, they dont like to be takin out of their confort zones, especially if they feel they have found a worthwhile pursuit! Its also much more fun to talk about mystical things and all the great feats of the old masters! These kinds of discussions have been going on sense i was a kid, probly always will.


BTW, when i was living in Sac i trained with alot of guys, anywhere from northern cali and the bay area, down to LA and San Diego. Im in Phoenix AZ now but if im ever back out Fresno way or your over here, we should play! Also, maybe you can introduce me to some of the women in your myspace friends comment area, especially Andrea, Heather, and Kuya :D LOL


J

L. Camejo
05-08-2005, 04:17 PM
It's interesting to see that to this day some people still relate fighting ability to a martial art or training method and not the particular individual who does the fighting.

Interesting.

LC:ai::ki:

Aristeia
05-08-2005, 05:33 PM
Hi Larry
The tone of your post indicates that you think this is a fallacy? I agree, individual attributes are important but the style can make a huge difference. OItherwise why have styles at all?

Jorx
05-08-2005, 05:34 PM
It's interesting to see that to this day some people still relate fighting ability to a martial art or training method and not the particular individual who does the fighting.

Interesting.

LC:ai::ki:

well to NOT to do that would be the same to NOT relate sprinters abilit y to raining possibilities

I am sorry but training methods do play a VERY big part.

Bodhi
05-08-2005, 05:57 PM
The way you have been training plays a key role in how and what you will do when its for real!

Ketsan
05-08-2005, 05:59 PM
It's interesting to see that to this day some people still relate fighting ability to a martial art or training method and not the particular individual who does the fighting.

Interesting.

LC:ai::ki:

It's combination of the strengths and weakness of the art plus the way they are taught added to the individuals ability to use them effectively.
If the art is ineffective then no matter how well learned it is it will always remain ineffective. If the art isn't taught properly then it wont be learned properly and finally even if the person learns it properly and it's a good solid set of techniques, failure to apply them properly will still result in failure.

It stands to reason that not all arts are equal. Some will prepare you better than others.

Bodhi
05-08-2005, 07:27 PM
"If the art isn't taught properly then it wont be learned properly and finally even if the person learns it properly and it's a good solid set of techniques, failure to apply them properly will still result in failure."


Like i have always said, KNOWLEDGE IS NOT POWER, THE ABILITY TO APPLY YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ESPECIALLY UNDER PRESSURE, IS TRUE POWER!

L. Camejo
05-08-2005, 08:54 PM
Many assumptions by some folks.

"
Like i have always said, KNOWLEDGE IS NOT POWER, THE ABILITY TO APPLY YOUR KNOWLEDGE, ESPECIALLY UNDER PRESSURE, IS TRUE POWER!

Exactly. Very concisely put.

Training only helps how one operates under pressure to a point. It is by no means irrelevant to the development of effective skills, but there are many, many other factors that are equally, if not more important and are not necessarily trained in any martial arts dojo if we are talking about self defence in the real world.

Some things can be trained, others need a different type of stimulus to improve.

And the reason there are different styles is because different human beings have different takes and approaches on what amounts to the same elements that affect the human condition. There is nothing new under the sun, just different takes on the same old themes.

The only reason I made the comment is because some may think MA training may equate directly to self defence training. In reality there are a few other factors that come into play that are not taught in the vast majority of dojo, and it has nothing to do with techniques or fighting skills. That is the easy part.

Take 10 folks from any martial art or training method, put them in identical real life danger or pressure situations and you will get a variety of results even though training methods may be identical. Pressure tends to have an interesting way of showing us who we really are, outside of the delusions and protection of the dojo.

LC:ai::ki:

CNYMike
05-08-2005, 08:56 PM
"I dont see how in Gods name u can find Brazilian jiujitsu effective and not aikido.. makes no sense."
-paige

What color is the sky in your world? :crazy:


"Hahahahah, that statement has to be a joke.
Look at what happend in martial arts history about 12 years ago."

-Chris Hein


Chris, people dont want to talk about what really happens, they dont like to be takin out of their confort zones, especially if they feel they have found a worthwhile pursuit! Its also much more fun to talk about mystical things and all the great feats of the old masters! These kinds of discussions have been going on sense i was a kid, probly always will.


Oh, puh-LEAAAZE. Could you be more condescending if you tried?

When the Gracies first hit the scene (which was more than 12 years ago, closer to 15 or 20), I was plus-plus-nonplussed. Even though I hadn't done more than traditional karate and Aikido at that point, my first karate sensei had made a point of saying some things over and over again: Every move has a counter-move; you won't win all the time; and someone out there knows something you don't. So when the Gracies claimed to be able to take on all comers, my first though was, These guys are proving sensei was right -- they have counters to their opponents moves, the other guys are losing for once, and they know something other people don't. So I didn't see what all the fuss was about, or why "stand up striking" systems were in a tizzy.

Fast forward to 1997, and I started taking Kali at the now-defunct East West Martial Arts Academy under Guro Kevin Seaman, which is also where I began training under Guro Andy Astle. Guro Kevin is heavily interested in grappling, not just from Shoot and BJJ but it's incorporated into Kali. (I'm actually a little hazy on what he knows from where, now that I think about it. I know that Sensei Eric Paulson is Guro Kevin's grappling instructor, but other than that, I'm hazy on his lineage outside Kali. Although I think -- don't quote me on this --- that BJJ is part of the Jun Fan/JKD curriculum, but I can't say for certain because I'm not a Jun Fan person. :o But I digress.) So even though Kali has a lot of stuff going on standing up, I periodically got exposed to th grappling system; and Guro Kevin also did a couple of grappling systems. I wouldn't claim to be any good at it -- far from it -- but I'm acquainted with the basic positions. But something I also became acquainted with a plaque on the wall of the academy, a list of precepts Guro Kevin wanted his students to follow, and the one that sticks in my mind was, "I will refrain from criticizing other martial arts styles and systems; they all have something to offer." That plus their approach to looking at the arts in general during their lectures, as well as the fact that I could go into East West for "open training" and do karate kata without any word from any avowed kata haters about it imparted to me a live-and-let-live with attitude towards the arts: Some arts specialize in certain things and neglect others, but that's ok, that's the way they are; you will still benefit from doing it. I don't know if Guros Kevin and Andy intended me to think that way, but that's the impact they had. (BTW, Guro Kevin once illustrated the need to practice regularly by saying something like, "'Oh I don't want to practice my basic kata!' Mr. Gallagher does his forms every day." Actually it was closer to every other day then; barely once a week now. :o But you get the idea.)

So when I return to Aikido after 16 years -- and although I'd been thinking about it for a while, there's a yarn and a half about what gave me the final push -- I'm not looking at it and saying, "It should do this, that, and the other thing." I will, in fact, agree that the Aikido I'm doing doesn't go near those areas, no question! But my attitude is, "They don't do those things? Ok. They don't do those things. So what do they do?" And I work on trying to learn what is there than lambaste it for what's not.

If you want to shoehorn Aikido into looking like every other MMA system, fine, go right ahead. It's your prerogative. Knock yourself out. But if you want to believe that people who don't hop on your bandwagon are in denial or hiding from the facts of life .... Well, it doesn't apply to me. And I'm probably not the only one. So forgive me if I don't go along with that.

L. Camejo
05-08-2005, 09:00 PM
As far as assumptions go - case in point.

well to NOT to do that would be the same to NOT relate sprinters abilit y to raining possibilities

I am sorry but training methods do play a VERY big part.

Sprinters train to sprint on a track, which is identical to the environment in which they will be sprinting for real. Do you train for self defence in everyday clothes on the open street with guys who have real weapons, seriously intent on killing you for your wallet?

"The best preparation for an even is the event itself." - Bruce Lee.

Equating success in sport to successful training methods is easy. The training environment and the event environment are pretty much the same, the only difference being maybe screaming crowds and the guy next to you in the case of sprinting.

Gambatte.

LC:ai::ki:

eyrie
05-08-2005, 09:18 PM
Well for that to be said "your Aikido doesn't work" first someone needs to prove to the world that AIKIDO dose in fact "work", if we had one sound example of it working. If there were a street fight dominated by and Aikidoka caught on the news, or an Aikidoka entered a professional competition. Something besides myths and rumors. Again I mean working from a basically empty handed fighting situation. Lots of people know it works to make people happier more productive human beings, most of use have seen this in the Dojo, so no one asks dose it work in that perspective. I personally know it works in a weapons fight, maybe I should find a video of that and put it up.
-Chris Hein

On any given day at any given time, can you be 100% effective ALL of the time? It is not the martial art that doesn't work, it's the martial artist that cannot make it work.

Even Helio Gracie lost a few fights - one in which he had his arm broken by Kimura. Name any other MA great, and tell me they've never had a bad day, or never lost a fight - EVER? Even Musashi lost 1 battle, out of 60 contests.

BTW, a street fight is not the same thing as a life/death self-defence situation.

Aikido works. I know MY aikido sometimes works, and I definitely know I need more practice....