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Jeff Tibbetts
01-22-2003, 10:50 PM
OK, let's clear it up before you think it. This is not a thread on wether Shikko (knee walking) should or shouldn't be practiced. Ok, having said that.

I was looking at an article online somewhere about teaching Aikido to kids, and in the article the person being interviewed was trying to express how important ukemi was for kids. He went on to list a number of ukemi techniques that they do every class as warmups (much more than us, we do rolls and that's about it for ukemi in our warmups). Among the extensive list were forward and backward shikko, with and without rolls. I wasn't aware that you could even do shikko backwards, I've never seen it done. I always hear people talk about how hard Shikko is to do, and I never had too much of a problem with it, but maybe that's because I'm not doing it backwards :)

Do you do a lot of Shikko in your dojo? And if so, do you do other variations with it, like rolls mixed in and backwards shikko? Just curious. If you'd like to let me know how to do it that would be great, too :)

Edward
01-22-2003, 11:29 PM
In my understanding, backward shikko does not exist historically. However, since some suwari waza requires backward movement, some dojos (very few) do practice backward shikko.

JJF
01-23-2003, 02:30 AM
At least one of our sensei usually put in a little shikko - both forwards and backwards. He even teaches three variants of backwards shikko. It has some benefits suchs as practicing moving backwards with the movement starting from your hips, and it teaches something about posture while moving. It's very hard, but also a bit of fun. Of course it works wonders for your suwariwaza, but we don't do much of that anyway.

We also do a number of different types of forward ukemi, and two variants of backwards ukemi.

Anyway Jeff - if you should happen to go to Denmark, please drop in, and we'll show you the way we usually do it. (of course that goes for you to Edward :D)

Edward
01-23-2003, 03:12 AM
if you should happen to go to Denmark, please drop in, and we'll show you the way we usually do it. (of course that goes for you to Edward :D)
I might surprise you with a visit, one of these days... ;) BTW, one of the high-ranking instructors of Nishio aikido in Danemark seems to be coming quite often to Thailand...

ian
01-23-2003, 04:09 AM
Wow - I'm suprised no-one does a backward shikko! I don't really like teaching much suwari-waza since I'd rather spend the time imprinting standing techniques. However we do some shikko as I think it helps develop hip mobility (and for lowering the centre). For me the backward shikko is even better for this.

With rolls, I often start beginners off doing rolls from shikko - both forward and backward. My favourite rolling practise is to just move along integrating forward and backward rolls from both standing and kneeling with shikko interspersed (often in a follow my leader type scenario around the mat - and usually crossing the back of the ukemi line just for fun (and zanshin)).

Ian

Greg Jennings
01-23-2003, 05:54 AM
We train shikko once a week but we do forward, backward and spinning.

I learned the spinning from Larry Bieri Sensei. It has helped my suwariwaza more than anything else.

Best Regards,

aiki_what
01-23-2003, 06:44 AM
We were taught shikko and suwari-waza as "basics" when I first began Aikido. It was emphasized that we should be able to move in any direction ....much the same as walking. The basic premise is the involvement of the hips.

There is an incredible video of HIroshi Ikeda Sensei doing a randori where he is in shikko and the attackers are all standing.

REK
01-23-2003, 07:07 AM
Shikko was never really popular in our dojo until Ikeda Sensei's video became available. Since that time, we have practiced (although far too infrequently) forward, backward and spinning versions. Ikeda Sensei's video also contains good drills for increasing your mobility in that position. Some of the more adventurous of us also do drills in which we incorporate basic kicking into our shikko (mae, yoko and mawashi geri). Lots of fun.

Unfortunately, Ikeda Sensei's knee injuries have provided the lazier in our group excuses for not wanting to engage in any shikko practice. I don't personally know the nature of these injuries, and it's none of my business. But it is sad how some have taken advantage of it to justify their own lack of motivation.

JJF
01-23-2003, 08:07 AM
I might surprise you with a visit, one of these days... ;) Great! Just e-mail or phone me a few days ahead, or my wife will kill me.... That's one area, where my MA skills probably won't do me any good :D
BTW, one of the high-ranking instructors of Nishio aikido in Danemark seems to be coming quite often to Thailand... Interesting. Do you happen to know his name, or do you know what dojo he belongs to ? We don't have that many high-ranking instructors, so chances are that I have met him before. At least at our annual easter-camp where allmost every Nishio aikido practitioner in Scandinavia and large parts of Europe join in a week of intense practice. (could be a good reason for a short trip to Scandinavia :) Huh ?)

diesel
01-23-2003, 09:22 AM
Every class we begin with shikko and variations.. Variations being turns to the outside, inside, and backwards..

We also do quite a bit of ukemi from tachi waza and suwari waza..

Eric

JimAde
01-23-2003, 11:01 AM
It's interesting how much this varies. In my first dojo, we practiced shikko as part of our daily warm-ups (occasionally including backward), and did at least one suwariwaza or hanmi handachi technique in about half the classes. In my current dojo, we do these things very rarely.

Don_Modesto
01-23-2003, 11:48 AM
Unfortunately, Ikeda Sensei's knee injuries have provided the lazier in our group excuses for not wanting to engage in any shikko practice. I don't personally know the nature of these injuries, and it's none of my business. But it is sad how some have taken advantage of it to justify their own lack of motivation.
Not sure I'd regard caution as lack of motivation. The man doesn't kneel, after all.

OTOH, what folk may not know is that in university, Ikeda's club did ergonomically incorrect things such as duck walk up stadium steps--with a partner on their shoulders, this from an interview, perhaps in Aikido Today. Jun may be able to elaborate.

Jeff Tibbetts
01-23-2003, 12:09 PM
wow, thanks for all the responses. For those of you who DO do backwards, or have, HOW do you do it? Are there any pictures or videos that you know of, or could you just describe it for me? I'd really like to know how it works.

Kat.C
01-23-2003, 01:49 PM
We've practised doing shikko backwards in our dojo as well, I'm far from an expert at it but I'll try to describe how we do it. From kneeling (up on your toes of course), you lift your right knee up and place it out the the side, pivoting on your foot, don't lift it. So you should now be angled towards the right, how much of an angle depends on how far to the side you put your knee.Then you will swing your left knee towards your right knee while you pivot on your right knee so that you are facing forward(by foward I mean the way you were facing when you began. Your body will have moved off to the right. Then you do the same thing but with your left leg and you will end up moving off to the left and you should be facing forward at the end of the movement.Your feet by the way don't lift off the mat they just kind of slide along it. It uses your hips alot, a little more so it seems to me than forward shikko. Anyway, that's the best that I can do to describe it.

Greg, how do you do spinning shikko? It sounds really neat.

ocbolton
01-29-2003, 06:32 AM
we do shikko forward, backward, irimi tenkan(spinning?). but then we also do Kokyu Nage from suwari waza and hanmi handachi waza so you need to move forward, back and turn just like standing- doesn't everyone else?!? we also roll forward, back and sideways from shikko.