Poll: How much does an effective aikido yonkyo/yonkajo rely on pain?

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AikiWeb Poll for the week of January 19, 2003:

How much does an effective aikido yonkyo/yonkajo rely on pain?

I don't do aikido
I don't know yonkyo/yonkajo
Completely
Very much
A lot
Some
Little
Not at all


Here are the current results (http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=149).

[MikeE]

I think yonkyo can be done effectively with alot of pain, or with no pain.

I look at yonkyo as a way to effect uke's center thru the extremities, the pain is just icing on the cake.

[diesel]

Great topic Jun, straight from the Aikido-l list..

I do not the have the pressure point for yonkyo, but yonkyo is still effective when done correctly on me. Therefore I see the pain as unnecessary... but for those with the pressure point the yonkyo incorporates it... so in that case the pain is a major part of it.. hmm a paradox..

Eric

[siwilson]

I remember my late Master's Yonkajo (Yonkyo). I never felt any pain (unless he wanted me too), yet I was powerless against it.

Also, I have been on the end of increadably painful Yonkajo that would not move me.

That may be the paradox - or the answer.

I long for the day when my Yonajo is like my Master's.

[JW]

Of course a lot of people answered "some" to "very much"...
but I think that if yonkyo really RELIED on pain then ikkyo could never work. I mean there probably isn't anyone who would say that the pain doesn't HELP.. but that is not to say yonkyo relies on it.

Really, how can you say yonkyo relies on the pressure point pain when ikkyo actually works without pain? They are only slight variations on each other. Even without hitting the pain spot, yonkyo is sometimes easier than ikkyo--that's why I voted "not at all."
--JW

[Edward]

I think that to take down Uke to the ground, pain is not essential, but in order to keep him there, then pain becomes necessary.

[mike lee]

One always has to be prepared for the possibility that one will encounter an attacker with a high pain threshold. (I've met a number of women in aikikdo, for example, who can take unimaginable amounts of pain.) There's also the possibility that an attacker may be on drugs or alchohol, and/or may be so pumped up on adrenalin that something will break before he feels or gives into pain. (If one does break an attacker's bone, one could be held legaly liable.)

It took me a long time to learn to make yonkyo very painful. For some reason, I just couldn't figure it out. Then the teacher told me that, actually, the pain factor was unnecessary, and that it was physical postioning that was crucial. So, I parcticed for some time, just concentrating on getting the overall movement down, and not worrying about delivering a lot of pain to my uke. (Like all other aikido waza, it's basically a hara exercise; that is, nage learning to move uke's hara.) Eventually, I became more relaxed and confident in my movement (my shoulders and elbows came down and may arms remained extended, extending ki), and I figured out how to make yonkyo painful.

Now I emphasize this same path to my students, believing that one day, they will figure it out.

Finally, I believe that it's unnessary for experienced aikidoists to repeatedly deliver extremely painful yonkyo during practice. I think that once or twice is enough. After that severe brusing can set in, making it difficult to type on a computer the next day. ( I work on a computer eight hours a day, five days a week.)

[ian]

For many people yonkyo does not produce pain (their yonkyo nerve is protected by fat or is located slightly differently), therefore if it depended completely on pain it is ineffective. I think it is like saying, does kote-gaeshi, or a pin rely on pain - pain is a useful by product and can be cranked up if necessary, however usually it is a distraction from the main technique.

One of the great things about yonkyo is the lovely and clear sword cutting action.

Ian

[ian]

P.S. I actually get a weird buzz out of the pain aikido gives me - particularly the next day.

[jimvance]

Really, how can you say yonkyo relies on the pressure point pain when ikkyo actually works without pain? They are only slight variations on each other. Even without hitting the pain spot, yonkyo is sometimes easier than ikkyo--that's why I voted "not at all."I would take this statement one step further to say that any technique designed to actively cause pain to a willing participant is abuse. If abuse is condoned, then we all take turns being abusers, whether it be in the role of uke and tori, or sensei and deshi.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we shouldn't feel any pain, I actually feel my fair share of it from practice. But applying pain to someone willing to go along with it just so they can turn around and do it to me means that I need therapy. Why not take turns whipping each other a la the Marquis de Sade?P.S. I actually get a weird buzz out of the pain aikido gives me - particularly the next day.It's addictive too, especially with the Irish. :D

Jim Vance