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Paula Lydon
01-15-2003, 08:51 AM
~~I've been reading a lot of threads over time about how Aikido stands up against this or that MA. I must really be missing something about the makeup of Aikido because I believe it's not about compitition. If you cannot escape an attack by other means and must defend yourself I would hope that a well trained martial artist isn't the one mugging you. But, okay, maybe they are. It seems these dicussions, though, are more about an arena setting than a street.
~~Any clarity on this? Thanks!

SeiserL
01-15-2003, 08:59 AM
IMHO, Paula you are neither dumb nor missing anything. Sports are meant for the arena, not martial arts. All styles have their benefits for the turf they were designed for. I don't think Aikido was designed technically or philosophically for the sport arena. As a martial art, it was designed for the streets.

Until again,

Lynn

paw
01-15-2003, 09:33 AM
Paula,

If I may play devil's advocate:
I must really be missing something about the makeup of Aikido because I believe it's not about compitition.

Shotokan aikido has competition. As best I understand it, competition is not the end all, be all, goal of Shotokan ... but nevertheless it is present. Jason Deluca has posted in this forum that he intends to bring aikido into MMA competition. Are they fundamentally wrong in doing so?
If you cannot escape an attack by other means and must defend yourself I would hope that a well trained martial artist isn't the one mugging you.

I would hope so too. If I was concered with self-defense, I would want to prepare and as if my was a well trained martial artist and competant athlete. That way anyone else would be "easier". But that's just me. For the record, my training in any martial art has never been about self-defense.
It seems these dicussions, though, are more about an arena setting than a street.

Well, one train of thought is the method of preparation and the technical base of the area is what works on the street.

Here's an example of how that arguement goes: You can take a Golden Gloves boxer and teach them to open their hand and strike with the heel of their palm pretty quickly. You can teach this boxer how to target specific points on the body that are more devistating to strike (eye jab, throat, etc....) and the boxer will be able to do this, under pressure, against a highly trained, highly athletic individual who's trying to take their head off. Because the boxer's training has produced a conditioned, athletic individual who is skilled at avoiding blows, negating blows and delivering blows against highly trained, highly conditioned opponents --- and they have done so in a safe, dynamic environment.

Some people disagree with that argument, so draw your own conclusions.

Regards,

Paul

deepsoup
01-15-2003, 01:56 PM
Paula and Lynn,

I certainly agree that these "aikido vs other MA" are a bit daft, but I dont see that it has anything to do with the sporting arena.

Its kind of the whole point of a sport that everybody's playing the same game. The (pointless) point of "aikido vs whatever" is to compare two different 'games'.

Paul,

Its Shodokan with a 'd' ('Shotokan' is a style of Karate, very common mistake. :))

Typographical hair-splitting aside, I think we agree completely.

Regards

Sean

x

paw
01-15-2003, 02:04 PM
Its Shodokan with a 'd' ('Shotokan' is a style of Karate, very common mistake

Oooops. Bad keyboard! Bad keyboard!

My apologies to all Shodokan and Shotokan practioners.

siwilson
01-15-2003, 04:17 PM
I would hope that a well trained martial artist isn't the one mugging you.
Me too, but...

Don't worry of give a thought about who is mugging you. Don't give him an identity - that will work your concience. Don't think about his skills - That will phase you.

John Doe - Knows Zero!

That aside. Aikido is a martial art and has nothing to do with fighting.

Best wishes

Edward
01-15-2003, 10:22 PM
Have you ever noticed that when you try a new MA, you tend to be very efficient during the first or second training sessions, and then you're completely lost? It's because you didn't know the rules in the beginning and drawn on your past experience in order to pass through the experience. Once you acknowledge the new rules, you feel helpless because you're not familiar with the new applications. I did recently a friendly kendo match with a friend because I'm planning to take up kendo next week. I used my aikiken experience and actually felt more superior to him and could "cut" him so many times that he got upset. Actually all my moves were illegal in kendo and would have disqualified me in a real match. But in reality, all my friend's training years in kendo would have been useless because I as a beginner could have killed him if we had real swords, simply because he wanted to play by the rules, but I didn't know the rules :D

shadow
01-15-2003, 11:12 PM
people are concerned with aikido vs other martial arts because they want to be training the best martial arts. if aikido cant defeat all others then its not the best is it? whereas in any case it will be the particular individual, his sincerity and the sincerity of his teacher which will determine a victor. not the martial arts itself. regardless i dont think that its important to be worried about wether it is superior or not because as long as you are caught up in this frame of thought, your progress will always be limited.

gasman
01-16-2003, 04:57 AM
some external artists are sceptical to internal arts

some internal artists are sceptical to external arts

there will be no internal without external

there will be no external without internal

/my 2 cents

faramos
01-16-2003, 12:52 PM
I highly agree with Damien's point. In looking at the short, and to another extent, long history of Aikido, it's easy for people to get caught up in the idea that they must be doing "THE MOST SUPERIOR MARTIAL ART" (big thundering voice). This I would account for because it is the one that makes the most sense for us to understand and continue training. It's not uncommon. In fact I think is highly visible since there are so many martial forms out there that people have gravitated towards.

To be personal about it, I'm not exactly positive Osensei had the idea in mind that aikido would be the ultimate in martial techniques, or perfect against any other form. But rather the context of Aiki itself could be manifested in our training and it would make sense of what true haromony is. I'm not an expert, but Osensei did make friends with plenty of people with a different Do than himself. What's beautiful is that he accepted that, and they in tern accepted him. So perhaps if we see Aikido as a way to express our Do, and see others express theirs, then that itself is a wonderful concept. So perhaps that is what makes people smile on the mat. They have their Way, and you have yours.

Martially, I'm an stern believer that any martial artist, of any rank, can subdue any other martial artist or any rank, at any given time, on any given day, using any given technique. But that's an argument for another day.

Salude,

Frank

Grasshopper
01-16-2003, 11:28 PM
it's easy for people to get caught up in the idea that they must be doing "THE MOST SUPERIOR MARTIAL ART" (big thundering voice). This I would account for because it is the one that makes the most sense for us to understand and continue training
What makes a martial art superior? If someone using one art manages to beat someone else up using a different art, then that just makes them the "winner" of the fight, but not necessarily better in any way.

PeterR
01-17-2003, 12:34 AM
then that just makes them the "winner" of the fight, but not necessarily better in any way.
Except at fighting.

Edward
01-17-2003, 01:01 AM
Unfortunately we are not all born equal. Some people are strong, some are big, some are naturally vicious, some are fast...etc.

It doesn't matter which MA you do, or even if you do any MA at all, some people are just genetically predispositioned to win in fights, and some are not.

According to Sun Tzu philosophy, you should only fight with an enemy when you are 100% sure of an overwhelming victory, such as when you outnumber them by 10 to 1, or when the enemy is much weaker or smaller than you.

That's why most MA are played by weight categories. It would be foolish to get into a fight with someone obviously bigger or stronger than you.

In this respect, there is no better or worse MA. There are good and bad fighters. And even the good ones cannot win all the time.

As far as I know, Aikido is the only MA that teaches you to run away when the odds are not favorable.

opherdonchin
01-17-2003, 08:48 AM
That reminds me of a story. One of my doctoral advisor started taking ninjitsu, and we used to talk about the similarities and differences and wrestle in the halls quite a bit. One day, he came in and said that his teacher had explained that the philosophy behind ninjitsu says that, in principle, if you find yourself fighting you have already made a mistake. That's interesting I thought, we have the same sort of idea in AiKiDo. My advisor went on and said that ideally you should have cut your enemies throat from behind and completely avoided the fight. "Same, same, but different."

faramos
01-17-2003, 12:01 PM
It's interesting that you're advisor seemed to frame the idea that this Do has great merit and meaning to him. That you describe it as "same, same, different". Often times people look at an art like ninjitsu and wince at the painful possiblities. But instead how reframing the idea of attacking takes on a more subtle meaning. I don't necessarily want to put words in Opher's mouth, but perhaps that is the training his advisor has chosen because he sees it as the Do for him.I cannot argue with someone that feels their Do can bring about a certain sense of harmony within themselves. That in itself is very aiki.

Cheers,

Frank

opherdonchin
01-17-2003, 12:31 PM
I think I was thinking it was more "different" than "same, same." Still, I think what you are saying is right on, Frank. I will say about the man that a gentler and more loving soul could not be found. He just 'liked' the notions of overpowering force or, alternatively, subtle and treacherous strategy. An interesting man.