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heath
01-12-2003, 07:50 PM
I've just started doing some aikido. I have a question:

Why is it that when punches/strikes/etc. are done, that the person always punches/strikes with the same leg that moves forward? So if you step forward with the right leg, you punch with the right. I understand that it's easy to execute a technique from this, but the only time I'd ever think of throwing a punch this way would be if it was a jab.

No skilled fighter in his right mind would ever throw a power punch with the same foot forward.

Do these techniques only work this way, or would the work the same way if someone throws a proper punch (ie left foot forward, right arm)?

By the way, I'm assuming the guy taking the hit is executing the technique, not the otherway around obviously.

MikeE
01-12-2003, 08:37 PM
If you are keeping proper distance, this is the only way a power punch can come from.

I understand what you are saying, but take the time to LEARN before you dismiss this idea.

To be honest, I think it is easier to disrupt the center of a power punch coming cross body.

Mainly because its slower and the person's range of effectiveness is greatly diminished allowing me more time to "do my thang".

Keep training!

All the Best.

Josh Mason
01-12-2003, 08:48 PM
I don't know where you've learned to punch, but i've just physically stood up from my computer and tried to throw a hard right with my left foot forward, and couldn't help but step my right foot out. I guess it's just an automatic thing for me, as it should be for anyone.

Punching in the way you described, there would be very little extention, body weight, momentum, and power and range in a stance like that.

being an Aikido practitioner, I gladly welcome those big punches. An attacker will be more likely to throw a big sloppy punch than anything else, and I believe that Aikido's circular evasive movements are perfect for those attacks. Good Irimi or Tenkan techniques will take care of those no problem.

heath
01-12-2003, 09:04 PM
Just to respond, you don't start with your feet in that position. Try with your feet together, step forward with left, rotate hips and punch with right.

Josh Mason
01-12-2003, 09:08 PM
"Just to respond, you don't start with your feet in that position. Try with your feet together, step forward with left, rotate hips and punch with right"

Ok... I get that. Here's how that should read...

Step forward with left, rotate hips, punch with the right AND step forward with the right to gain more reach, body weight and power......

Kevin Wilbanks
01-12-2003, 09:13 PM
I don't know where you've learned to punch, but i've just physically stood up from my computer and tried to throw a hard right with my left foot forward, and couldn't help but step my right foot out. I guess it's just an automatic thing for me, as it should be for anyone.
Um. I don't think so. The right cross (or rear hand cross) is a standard punch in virtually any pugilistic art, and generally the most powerful punch due to the amount of hip twist and acceleration room available. Stepping forward with the rear leg while delivering a punch with the rear hand , on the other hand, is fairly unusual, although I've seen it in a style with ambidextrous stances.

It's true that you can cover more ground with an 'Aikido punch', but most boxing styles would never launch a punch from that far away in the first place. Way too telegraphed. Most would step, slide or lunge in and launch the punch from their standard fighting stance, and the rear fist would not likely be the only punch or the first punch in the combination.

I tend to agree with John that, as a punch, the standard Aikido punch is kind of lame, and not good preparation to face a skilled boxer of most any kind, in and of itself.

It is actually more of a lunging attack one would make with a blade. However, it's also a pretty lame knife attack. The whole point of a knife is that you can do damage without much force, so diving in like that is a bit silly. A trained knife fighter would keep his weight back, start with your extremities, and carve his way in with a light touch... Then again, who cares? If you have to fight a trained knife fighter open-handed, you're toast.

Personally, I have no problem with the traditional attacks though. They are good for movement dynamics. If you want to train to deal with other attacks, just add them.

akiy
01-12-2003, 09:26 PM
Both oizuku (same side punch as the stepping foot) and gyakuzuki (opposite side punch as the stepping foot) are devastating punches if done correctly.

Just the other night, I was training with my teacher for a pretty darned simple hijinage. I was giving him some good oizuki attacks including trying to retract my punch. When he was uke, all I can say is that I'm glad he only glanced my stomach the first time; if he had hit me straight on, I probably would have been on the ground, doubled over.

Likewise I've felt many very forceful and skilled gyakuzuki from karate practitioners. If I get the chance, I'll try to ask one of the students at the dojo about this since he happens to hold a 5th dan in karate...

-- Jun

heath
01-12-2003, 09:30 PM
So what are some techniques against a rear arm punch (gyzuakaki or whatever you called it, don't know the names yet)?

akiy
01-12-2003, 09:33 PM
You may have to change your footwork and/or body movement a bit to break their balance in a slightly different manner (ie change the angle), but you can probably do every single technique done for a "regular" tsuki.

-- Jun

Tim Griffiths
01-13-2003, 01:56 AM
You're right Jun. The one's that are more tricky are those stepping inside (think basic ikkyo from tsuki) - if you did it the same way you'd be right there for a second punch.

Tim

akiy
01-13-2003, 08:06 AM
You're right Jun. The one's that are more tricky are those stepping inside (think basic ikkyo from tsuki) - if you did it the same way you'd be right there for a second punch.
Wouldn't the same danger of a follow-up punch occur from a regular oizuki? I often see people incorporating an atemi during the entry for a technique like that...

-- Jun

aikigreg
01-13-2003, 09:20 AM
my impression given my multi-art background was that given the hanmi that someone is likely to be in, stepping forward with the foot opposite the hand you punch with leaves you more open to a kick to the crotch. MY practice bears it out, since I use that often as an atemp for ukes who "forget" :eek:

Josh Mason
01-13-2003, 04:02 PM
I'm just a beginner in Aikido, and don't really know a whole lot of atemi or punches pertaining to Aikido. I really don't know a lot of punching techniques from a boxer's standpoint, or from any other martial arts style either. I naturally throw a hard punch like a baseball player throws a baseball if you can imagine that.

I'm sorry if that's not the "correct" way to punch, whatever that means, but it sure has knocked the hell out of some school bullies and gotten me out of some bad scraps in one piece.

heath
01-13-2003, 08:50 PM
Josh,

That is _exactly_ the way you are supposed to punch for maximum power. Jabs go with the same foot, where as a power punch comes from the the arm opposite the foot going forward. That's the only reason I ask this question. These techniques in aikido seem to work from the standpoint of taking advantage of the uke when they are off-balance. It's not easy to find someone off-balance though if they throw a correct punch (ie the one I described).

jimvance
01-13-2003, 09:45 PM
As I see it, there are two schools of thought here. One is "gain power from an explosive muscular contraction" and the other is "gain power from proper alignment/structure under the force of gravity".

The first school uses a muscular lunge or torsion to drive against the ground while simultaneously striking against a target in an attempt to crush or concuss it. This is the method used in boxing, sumo, karate, football, etc.

The second school vectors force along a certain path to take advantage of a tool or an inherent weakness in the target. This is the method used in kenjutsu, hsing-i, golf, wrecking balls, etc. The vectored force typically makes use of gravity acting on the mass in its arc, rather than an ability to generate force against gravity.

Both schools are used in martial arts and have different strengths and weaknesses that can be utilized in techniques. As a research project, one of my sempai and I created an ashi waza "kata"; in the second half of the kata, the tori had to perform "gari" (osoto, kosoto, ouchi, kouchi) against a "boxing" uke. Very interesting, helped me learn to punch like a boxer.

Jim Vance

heath
01-14-2003, 12:54 AM
So what's the verdict... are there any formal techniques to defend against this sort of punch?

Duarh
01-14-2003, 04:09 AM
Normally, there's techniques for defending from just about any type of attack (save nuclear ones), but I don't see why any such technique should be 'formal'. I'd always be okay with 'informal aikido' if that got things done. . .:)

Sharon Seymour
01-14-2003, 10:25 AM
Guess I'd respond in relation to the shape of the attack -- linear or curving. And if someone is stepping in to close the distance for a short jab, I'm already moving.

In beginning practice, it is necessary to set up a scenario, so to speak, to make it possible for the student to respond effectively, and for uke to take the throw safely. So, attacks and techniques are agreed upon in advance. As training advances, attacks and responses can be more free (takemusu aiki), stepping outside the realm of named kihon waza.

Interesting discussion!

opherdonchin
01-14-2003, 10:41 AM
Wouldn't the same danger of a follow-up punch occur from a regular oizuki?Just imagining it in my head, I think Tim is write about ikkyo because the uke's hips are no perfectly aligned to swing back the other way for a second punch if you are on the outside. In standard AiKiDo hamni, it would be very hard for uke to come around and strike again. I think that if I was trying to build techniques against this strike, I'd probably think about treating it as yokomen and not as tski.

akiy
01-14-2003, 10:48 AM
So what's the verdict... are there any formal techniques to defend against this sort of punch?
As I wrote previously:

You may have to change your footwork and/or body movement a bit to break their balance in a slightly different manner (ie change the angle), but you can probably do every single technique done for a "regular" tsuki.

I'll see if I can play with this during the noon class. Hopefully, the guy who holds a 5th dan in karate will be there...

-- Jun

akiy
01-14-2003, 10:58 AM
Just imagining it in my head, I think Tim is write about ikkyo because the uke's hips are no perfectly aligned to swing back the other way for a second punch if you are on the outside. In standard AiKiDo hamni, it would be very hard for uke to come around and strike again.
I think it's about as easy to do a gyakuzuki to oizuki combination as it is to do an oizuki to gyakuzuki combination.

What I was imagining in Tim's ikkyo was the version where you step in front of uke (omote). I've seen some folks teach this by sort of forming an "X" with your hands on top of uke's punch then direting the punching arm back into uke's body for ikkyo.

If nage steps to the outside of uke's body (basically an ura version of ikkyo), I think uke will have a similarly difficult time hitting the the second hand whether they had executed an oizuki or gyakuzuki. Actually, I think it may be easier to turn to use the second hand after a gyakuzuki; all uke would have to do, basically, is shift from one hanmi to the other. Say I do a gyakuzuki with my right hand (so I'm in left hanmi/stance). If nage goes off to my right to try to do ikkyo on my right hand, all I'd do would be to turn in place so that I'm now in right hanmi/stance. This is a very common execrise that I've seen -- alternating gyakuzuki by turning from one side zenkutsudachi (front stance) to the other.

As an aside for the person who asked about the groin being open during gyakuzuki, I usually used gyakuzuki during kumite when I was on the "outside" of my partner. In other words, if I lined up my partner so they'd be a bit off to my right (by parrying their kick/strike or such), I can slide in for gyakuzuki. For example, my partner throws a right maegeri, I deflect the kick with my right hand off to the right, step in with my left foot, then punch gyakuzuki with my right.
I think that if I was trying to build techniques against this strike, I'd probably think about treating it as yokomen and not as tski.
Interesting. Why so?

-- Jun

Grasshopper
01-16-2003, 10:45 PM
So what's the verdict... are there any formal techniques to defend against this sort of punch?
My sempai of many martial backgrounds has made the point that aikido has no "when THIS attack, then THIS defence" mentality. When aikido flows from you naturally, it is much more effective and easy for you to do.

Which is not to say that particular attacks tend to be followed by particular techniques (tsuki kotegaeshi, anyone?), but theoretically (and I've seen it done), any technique can be used against any attack, depending on speed, size and just general conditions of the nage and uke and situation. Someone big and tough may choose to do a lock in response to a punch, someone little and scared out of their pants (like me!) would probably do any tenkan throw and get the hell out of there.

opherdonchin
01-17-2003, 07:56 AM
Actually, I think it may be easier to turn to use the second hand after a gyakuzuki;I scrolled up to make sure that I had oizuki (same hand and leg) and gyakuzi (opposite hand and leg) right, but if I do, then we are saying the same thing: ikkyo runs a greater risk of a second punch from the nonstandard (opposite hand and leg / gyakuzi) punch.

I may have gotten confused in the terminology, though.

opherdonchin
01-17-2003, 08:16 AM
I think that if I was trying to build techniques against this strike, I'd probably think about treating it as yokomen and not as tski. Interesting. Why so?I guess in my head and when I try it out myself, it feels like the opposite side punch (gyakuzi?) involves a lot of hip rotation and fundamentally comes 'around' center line rather than directly on it. This makes me think of yokomen. If you can get the hip rotation to continue, you should be able to create off-balance. Or you could get inside and stop it from beginning. Or you could go around/under it and take advantage of the return rotation. All of these are ideas that I'm borrowing from yokomen. The most common idea in a tsuki defence -- sliding in along the punch -- seems like it would leave you vulnerable, be hard to execute, and wouldn't necessarily get the uke's balance.

But, like I said, this is all me imagining things in my head. I should actually try it.

Nick P.
01-17-2003, 10:54 AM
"So what's the verdict... are there any formal techniques to defend against this sort of punch?"

I like atemi to the scrotum....no more attack.

:)

Cyrijl
01-24-2003, 08:31 AM
As i see it, aikido should be able to deal with straight or cross body punches. The task is to learn about attacking both ways for yourself. I am ambidextrous in a fighting situation. When sparring i often will switch my stance. So many people train with their attacker only facing one way that when their opponent switches stances, there is nothing they can do. I think this has greater implications for kicks than for punches. But the theory is the same.

opherdonchin
01-24-2003, 09:58 AM
I would go further. AiKiDo trains principles and ideas in a formal setting, but these principles and ideas can be developed to apply to any number of situations. Usually, this is left as an 'exercise for the student.' I've seen threads were people say the same principles can be applied to ground work. I've run into a number of teachers who talk about how the same principles apply to kicks or a variety of different punches. Some people also explore less physical kinds of confrontation. Wherever your interest lies, though, it is fundamental to (my understanding of) AiKiDo that you are meant to learn how to apply AiKiDo theory in a creative fashion in that situation.

W^2
01-24-2003, 07:36 PM
I'm in complete agreement with Opher Donchin; I see Aikido as being 'algebraic'in application.

Though the specific values of variables in an 'equation' may differ - and thus change the specific solution - the form for solving the equation doesn't. Aikido Kihon Waza train us in the basic 'equations' of physical conflict with the intention of becoming fluent in many 'solutions'.

In terms of Aikido responses to a right cross, a Kaiten Nage works fine. I've pulled this off in my Muay Thai class, just for fun. A standard Muay Thai technique for slipping the cross to the outside, parrying it with your left hand, puts me in position to switch to the throw. The Kaiten Nage is done in the direction ukes feet are pointing, so with the atemi to the face, turn tenkan and throw. Be sure to keep your left hand thumb at 90 degrees when you 'parry', so you can naturally allow ukes right arm to rotate itself into position. Of course the Maai in Muay Thai is much closer than Aikido, so keep that in mind as well.

I hope that helps,

Ward

Kelly Allen
01-25-2003, 05:44 AM
I think every one is over anylising this. John is just a beginner and my response to a begginers question about a menetski is this. It dosn't matter what foot you have forward because you have to close distance when you enter my shpere of power. Momentum is thus produced. As soon as you have advanced and entered my ma-ai with fist cocked you've shown your intent and I have plenty of time to tenkan, grabing your projected fist, placing weigh underside (dropping your wrist toward the floor). Now your way off balance, with no opportunity to throw the other fist at me. Aslight redirection applying ikkyo and boom your on the ground. I can go on from there to pin you in a number of ways. The point is once I have trapped your hand using proper aikia (Blending), no matter how you punch, or what foot you have forward, you will not have the balance to recover. Learn the technics first. Once you understand how to apply the technic, THEN learn how proper ma-ai, Aikia, and sphere of power relate to the defence of a sincere attack.

Kelly Allen
01-25-2003, 06:04 AM
Aside from that, John, Ukemi is an art unto itself and is as important as the throws. Ukemi is as much about the attack as it is the fall. There are some exellent books and vidios out there with respect to Ukemi. Check out the data base on this site. I think you will find some very good exsamples.

Welcome to the world of Aikido! have fun!

Scott Morris
01-25-2003, 02:24 PM
Kelly your comments were right on. Blending and balance are the essential elements to doing any of the techniques well. Perhaps you are suggesting that we all do more ukemi, or at least pay more attention to our ukemi to feel the sutle changes in balance in nage?

Lifelong Beginner

W^2
01-25-2003, 05:27 PM
As you can see John, there are as many points of view on this topic as there are valid responses to various attacks, and hopefully that diversity of individuality has given you some perspective. Basically we've all said:

1) Yes, there are specific responses (applications of techniques) to the right cross.

2) Munetsuki attacks are martially valid, and used to train us in direct attacks (linear energy vectors).

The most important advice I would give you is to train sincerely, with an open mind, and come to your own conclusions about what works for you - ultimately the efficacy of Aikido is in the practitioner of it. The principles employed in Aikido can be applied in many ways, and finding those applications is entirely up to you.



Ward

Kelly Allen
01-26-2003, 01:02 AM
Perhaps you are suggesting that we all do more ukemi, or at least pay more attention to our ukemi to feel the sutle changes in balance in nage?

Lifelong Beginner
Definitely! In a self defence situation you will more than likely use your ukemi long before you use a throwing technic for the simple reason ppl slip and fall more often than they get attacked.

For this discussion I was referring to the attack needing to come from ones Hara (center). just like one would attack in real life. That way the nage has to tune in more to the energy uke is giving him. When nage is tuned in properly both nage and uke get a better feel for the technic. Also when one attacks from ones hara, they are able to control the speed of the attack, slowing it down for the beginners, speeding it up for the more experienced, yet still maintaining the proper mechanics of a sincere attack.

Detective Dobbs
02-24-2003, 07:52 PM
John,every punch a skilled fighter throws is a power punch.George Foreman knocked out Mike Moore with jabs,jabs,jabs and finally a right.The power from his jabs set everything up.