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Unregistered
01-10-2003, 09:41 AM
I don't know how to phrase this delicately, has anyone else noticed an increase in libido after beginning aikido training? Through the training and physical contact I am starting to have a realization of people's "fleshiness." Other people seem more real to me somehow. This new sense has caused me to see members of the opposite sex in a new light. In everyday interactions I have a more physical sense of their being. Maybe it's a natural side effect of aikido training?
Maybe it's just me. :)

peteswann
01-10-2003, 09:53 AM
Could just be you!! I don't remember any thing like that when I started Aikido!! :D

People say the oddest things....

erikmenzel
01-10-2003, 10:42 AM
Whether it is just you or a real part of just starting aikido, my advice would be: Find a partner that also trains and go for it like bunnies!! :D :D :D

Enjoy it while you can :D

Hogan
01-10-2003, 12:01 PM
Increase in libido happens after any physical exercise, not just aikido. I think it is just your body's natural reaction to the start of such exercise....

shihonage
01-10-2003, 12:37 PM
It puts the lotion on it's skin, or it gets the hose again.

MattRice
01-10-2003, 02:21 PM
It puts the lotion on it's skin, or it gets the hose again.
DUDE! EeeeeeeeWWWW!

I'll be having nightmares over that one...

deepsoup
01-10-2003, 04:26 PM
Whether it is just you or a real part of just starting aikido, my advice would be: Find a partner that also trains and go for it like bunnies!! :D :D :D

Enjoy it while you can :D
Ah, you have to love the pragmatism of the Dutch. :)

Sean

x

Thalib
01-10-2003, 04:29 PM
You know... somebody wrote an article about Aikido increasing libido a few years back. We laughed at it. But I see now, it's actually serious.

Unregistered
01-10-2003, 04:30 PM
Get Real! It is downright prudish to equate increased libido with serial killing.

Sex is good for you, and sexual energy can and should be present in as many parts of life as possible. It isn't perverse to feel good about bodies, it isn't perverse to learn about one's sexuality from the intimacy inherent in aikido.

...nor does this sexiness necessitate/condone inappropriate behavior on the mat. It sounds like the individual who started this thread is keeping the sexiness off the mat, between her/his own ears, etc. What's the creepiness in that? I think about the sexiness of aikido all the time, and it totally increases my sex drive. I think part of it is general endorphins, but part of it is the partnered, intimate nature of the art. It's all about connection, right?

Why else do you think I keep pressuring my lover to join the dojo?

Nacho_mx
01-10-2003, 05:05 PM
Troll mating season...

mj
01-10-2003, 06:16 PM
So...this thread has sex, aikido and serial killing?

Wait till the BJJ guys see this.

Unregistered
01-10-2003, 06:29 PM
Through the training and physical contact I am starting to have a realization of people's "fleshiness." Other people seem more real to me somehow.
That's one of the weirdest, coolest, things I have heard anyone say about aikido in recent memory.

I agree that part of the reason could be (depending on this person's recent excercise background) just the fact that aikido is physical excercise. BUT: note the nature of the quote above.. very cool, it seems part of this has nothing to do with physical excercise, instead something more abstract that is much more specific to aikido! Like someone said, "it's about connection" in aikido training, and apparently exploring this type of feeling has had a specific effect for this person. VERY cool hey you should go talk to a sex psychologist, they would be very interested!

--JW

shadow
01-10-2003, 07:30 PM
i started a thread sometime ago on a similiar vein and it didnt go down as well as this.

aside from increasing libido, aikido also strengthens and adds mobility to those hips and increases sensitivity and awareness of yourself and your partner for more fun between the sheets.

Edward
01-10-2003, 08:57 PM
One Japanese Shihan has already explored the realtionship between Aikido and Tango. If Tango is sexy, then Aikido should be as well, with a partner of the right sex, that is ;)

5 senses
01-11-2003, 03:51 AM
I partly agree with John Hogan that some of what you're experiencing is just a reaction to starting an exercise program. Increased heart rate, endorphins flowing, better blood circulation (that last one especially)... And any kind of exercise will increase your physical awareness, especially in comparison with the sedentary, cerebral routines most of us live with.

But I'd also agree, Anon, that there's something special about aikido. Don't know where you're writing from, but in America anyway, everyday social interaction tends to be pretty cold physically. Casually touching people isn't that socially acceptable. (Compared to, eg, Mediterranean countries where acquaintances, incl. same-sex, often greet each other with kisses, and your radius of "personal space" is smaller than in the US.)

So when you get to the dojo, all the close physical contact can be an enormous release. Not "getting off" on it (sex is the last thing on my mind during practice), but just filling the ordinary human need for touch. It's even nice to be able to touch people & be physically close to them *without* sex having anything to do with it. So I totally see where you're coming from, having this sense of people's "fleshiness" - it's like a light bulb goes on & you realize that we're not all just disembodied brains doing brain stuff (talking, writing, posting on Aikiweb). How about that, we have bodies!

I've also noticed how different everyone feels physically as a training partner, even people of similar height, weight, build, etc. Extraordinary. Everyone has their own "movement personality" (for lack of a better term), as unique as their fingerprints. Even doing blindfolded randori I'd know exactly who I was throwing.

mike lee
01-11-2003, 05:14 AM
If a student believes that aikido is "sexy," then it seems to me that there is something wrong with the atmosphere in the dojo and/or the attitude of the student. If training is undertaken with the proper focus and intensity, there shouldn't be much mental energy left over for thoughts of sex. If there is, it means you are not properly focused.

erikmenzel
01-11-2003, 06:13 AM
I do agree with Mike completely. If you have time to think about sex than you are not training hard enough. On the other hand one also learns to observe and to be honest towards ones observations in the dojo. This means that at one point one may come to recognize beautiful and sexy people for what they are. This is good in my eyes, but also realy doent mean anything.

There is also another side that can play a part in this: If I compare the dojo with the real-world(TM) than it seems to me that the percentage of men/women in good (natural)physical shape is much much higher in the dojo compared to the real-wordl(TM)(And at least in my simple male brain good physical shape adds to beauty and sexiness).

SeiserL
01-11-2003, 09:53 AM
Tactile/sensory stimulation can increase libido. So can physical exercise, getting the heart rate up. Feeling better about yourself because you have had a good workout and doing something good for yourself also helps.

Please, IMHO, don't lower your center of gravity too much by focusing on the "sexual" aspects, could really throuhg your balance off.

Until again,

Lynn

ian
01-11-2003, 10:26 AM
What I often find strange about beginners is that they are shy of the physical contact (esp. during pins when the opponents arm is very close to the body). The reason I find it strange is that when I do aikido it takes me all my time to think about the technique, the openings, the martial aspects etc. I'm sure the same occurs to students as they continue as this embarrassment seems to dissapear.

Ian

Edward
01-11-2003, 11:04 AM
Unfortunately many people, especially young teen-agers, use training as a way to interact and flirt with persons of the opposite sex. Eventhough this is not commendable behaviour, but it is understandable. What I cannot understand is middle-aged male Yudansha flirting with cute teen-age female beginners.

Russ, UK
01-11-2003, 03:11 PM
I would agree that it's a general thing caused by excercising not by aikido specifically, moreover, if you do think that aikido is the reason for it and not the effort of excercising then you're not really paying enough attention to the waza...? One ought to try to have an alert mind and develop awareness at all times (not awareness of getting the horn!!!!!!!)

Unregistered
01-11-2003, 05:10 PM
Check the web for "Kinky Aikido Fetishes" and It will probably redirect you to the person who posted this thread. Or...

I bet this person has just started "Adolescence waza"

ChristianBoddum
01-11-2003, 07:07 PM
Hi !

I'd say that there definitely can be time enough for sensations/attractions when training with a partner,but thankfully never time enough for wrong mindsets to occur.

The mat is not a dancefloor but a great place to be.

yours - Chr.b.

Unregistered
01-12-2003, 01:00 AM
I am still amazed. Why this separation between sexual energy and all other energy?

This thread is not about inappropriate behavior or mind-wandering fantasies - it seems to be about admitting that people's bodies feel good, that engaging in a connected act increases one's sexual energy. What's wrong with that? Why is that a distraction from the upright goal of martial activity?

mike lee
01-12-2003, 02:24 AM
Why is that a distraction from the upright goal of martial activity?

If you've got to ask ...

Ta Kung
01-12-2003, 04:21 AM
it isn't perverse to learn about one's sexuality from the intimacy inherent in aikido.

It is when you have a dojo with only 5 girls. Most of the time, we're only men there... :eek: :eek: :eek:

5 senses
01-12-2003, 06:54 AM
To Mike Lee - I really like your emphasis on intense training. (In fact, if I lived in your neck of the woods, I'd love to drop by your dojo sometime!) But I think your dichotomy between intense, martial training and enjoying the physicality of aikido is a false one. It's just not either-or.

Zazen might be a good analogy. When sitting, you focus on breath and let everything else come and go. The process of meditation may turn out to be enjoyable, to relieve stress, etc., and although pleasure and stress-relief aren't the point of practice, they're welcome side-effects. And (from what mentors tell me, anyway) they don't interfere with correct and even very intense zen practice.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the enjoyment of physical contact can be one of the many natural side benefits of doing aikido. It's harmless, and need not interfere with even the most intense practice. (And you're talking to someone who likes doing tanto tori with live blades. :) )

There's a difference between going to the dojo in order to get physical with people, and going to the dojo in order to train hard - and happening to enjoy physical contact in the process (along with all the other side benefits, like better sleep, mood, overall fitness, etc).

mike lee
01-12-2003, 08:12 AM
But I think your dichotomy between intense, martial training and enjoying the physicality of aikido is a false one.

It's not my dichotomy — it's just the way it is. Those that want to reach the top of their game must realize that aikido is budo and train as such.

shihonage
01-12-2003, 01:18 PM
It rubs the lotion onto it's skin, it does this whenever it's told...

Jimro
01-12-2003, 03:10 PM
This is the best laugh I've had in a long time.

Many people experience heightened awareness after beginning a martial arts regime. It happened to me most intensely after a 3 day street defense course. I remember trying to fall asleep to the humming of the refrigerator two rooms away, things I hadn't noticed before became clear to me.

I don't think that Aikido has increased your libido any, I think you are becoming more aware of what that was their all the time.

mike lee
01-13-2003, 03:01 AM
This thread is not about inappropriate behavior or mind-wandering fantasies - it seems to be about admitting that people's bodies feel good, that engaging in a connected act increases one's sexual energy. What's wrong with that? Why is that a distraction from the upright goal of martial activity?

A good teacher once said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Since we practice a "Do," which is ultimately a spiritual pursuit, then it's imporatant that we understand how to engage in such training.

Although we begin with physical practice, It seems to me that O-Sensei wanted aikido to lead us into higher spiritual realms by engaging in the art. I don't recall any of O-Sensei's teachings talking about "admitting that people's bodies feel good" or increasing "sexual energy."

Frungy
01-13-2003, 05:17 AM
I met my current girlfriend in an Aikido class almost five years ago. There are much worse ways to start a relationship than an egalitarian training relationship.

Of course being a university dojo it was much bigger on encouraging socialising after class than most dojos (I suppose?).

It certainly didn't impair my aikido, or distract me during class to be practising with someone I was in love with, although I can't say the same for my university studies for the first couple of months :) .

Whether you're in love or lust or whatever, when someone is trying to execute a shihonage complete with convincing atemi, you concentrate or end up very sore.

5 senses
01-13-2003, 06:04 AM
"A good teacher once said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

"Although we begin with physical practice, It seems to me that O-Sensei wanted aikido to lead us into higher spiritual realms by engaging in the art."

If there's such a conflict between "flesh" and "spirit", why did O Sensei pick an intensely physical way to lead us to these "higher spiritual realms"? IME, aikido has an uncanny knack for giving "spiritual" insight - even when you're not looking for it! - through nothing other than plain old physical practice.

(I hope you didn't misunderstand my post (might not have expressed myself clearly) - what I meant about enjoying interacting physically with people on the mat was NOT about sexual fantasies/attraction. More about breathing a sigh of relief at being in an environment where the usual frigid social taboos against touch no longer apply, where being physically close to people has NOTHING to do with sex, & so is much more comfortable.)

Edward
01-13-2003, 06:30 AM
Well, according to Taoist beliefs (and consequently Japanese as well), one of the ways to reach enlightenment is sex ....

mike lee
01-13-2003, 06:37 AM
Well, according to Taoist beliefs (and consequently Japanese as well), one of the ways to reach enlightenment is sex ....

Go for it! The only thing I ever got out of it was brief moment of pleasure.

happysod
01-13-2003, 07:56 AM
I'd rather read replies from the partners of aikidokas rather than those practising - if they said it works it would sure help with the marketing literature...

Could also be a subject of an outre poll - "do you prefer aikido to sex", I'm not too sure reading some of the posts which would win.

Edward
01-13-2003, 09:10 AM
Honestly, after a 2 hours session of aikido, and another 2 hours session of Vitamin Beer, all what I want to do is go to sleep ;)

aikigreg
01-13-2003, 10:22 AM
Well, I didn't before but *NOW* I do! Thanks a heckuva lot! :p

Seriously though - my ex fiancee used to train with me, and other than entertaining thoughts of naked randori in the dojo with all the lights off, I was too sweaty and out of breath to think on it - even if the lady who I was paired with happened to be a righteous looking bird.

Unregistered
01-13-2003, 02:05 PM
As the original poster I'd like to clear a few things up that I didn't mention in the first post.

First let me say that I never think about these things while I'm on the mat. I'm just a beginner so I'm much too busy trying to learn the techniques and not falling on my face. I also don't expect it ever will be an issue. I don't know as much about budo as most of you, but I do know that would be inappropriate in the dojo.

Second, I'm happily married and plan to stay that way. I don't go around leering at women all the time since I started Aikido. I also don't get all worked up every time I'm in the presence of a woman. It's more of a subtle sense.

I think some of you have an idea of what I'm getting at. Others my be focusing too much on the sexual part. Perhaps I should have broken the topic into two separate posts.

opherdonchin
01-13-2003, 08:19 PM
About sex, Mike Lee said:
Go for it! The only thing I ever got out of it was brief moment of pleasure.And all I can say is that, friend, you are missing out.

Unregistered
01-13-2003, 08:35 PM
I second that. I think the taoist approach to sexuality is very relevant here. Sexual energy is good and everywhere and harnessable and useful, and if being in an environment in which you touch people and are intimate is helping some folks to understand the healthy and full nature of sexual energy, this is good. It is both physically and spiritually good, it is good practice, good Do. (as opposed to good Duoh).

mike lee
01-14-2003, 02:08 AM
And all I can say is that, friend, you are missing out.

I don't think so. For me, having sex and making love are quite different.

mike lee
01-14-2003, 02:25 AM
I think the taoist approach to sexuality is very relevant here. Sexual energy is good and everywhere and harnessable and useful, and if being in an environment in which you touch people and are intimate is helping some folks to understand the healthy and full nature of sexual energy, this is good. It is both physically and spiritually good, it is good practice, good Do.

According to everything that I've learned about martial arts, Zen Buddism, Taoism and Catholicism, the practioner is encouraged to conserve his sexual energy and convert it into spiritual energy. The act of sex merely depletes all of the practioner's hard-earned work. This is why monks, priests and mystics don't generally enage in sex, not to mention the fact that it's a distraction from spiritual pursuits.

Do a Google search and key in the words "Bible," "flesh" and "spirit" for and abundance of information on this problem.

Actually, there's no such thing as "sexual energy." It's all merely "energy." It's our own deluded thinking that makes it "sexual."

PeterR
01-14-2003, 02:45 AM
Wasn't there something about holes in the soji.

Ghost Fox
01-14-2003, 05:44 AM
Actually, there's no such thing as "sexual energy." It's all merely "energy." It's our own deluded thinking that makes it "sexual."
So, does that mean there is no such thing as martial energy?

mike lee
01-14-2003, 06:31 AM
So, does that mean there is no such thing as martial energy?

Never heard of it.

When a person turns on a light in their home, can they tell if the energy is coming from a nuclear power plant, a coal-fired power plant, a hydro-electric plant or a little old man peddling a bicycle with a belt hooked up to a generator? This kind of energy is all basically the same.

The same concept applies to ki.

Edward
01-14-2003, 08:15 AM
This is why monks, priests and mystics don't generally enage in sex, not to mention the fact that it's a distraction from spiritual pursuits.
It seems Taoist mystics used to engage frequently in ritual sex. Japanese Zen monks were allowed to do it with small boys, even though it seems some of them even indulged in the unthinkable: sex with women.

mike lee
01-14-2003, 08:49 AM
Japanese Zen monks were allowed to do it with small boys ...

Just because they did "it," doesn't mean it was right. Catholic priests in America also did "it" with young boys. Should we justify their actions because it was also done by Japanese "monks"?

Japanese, by the way, are infamous for corrupting Zen Buddhism.

Edward
01-14-2003, 09:55 AM
Just because they did "it," doesn't mean it was right.
Of course not. What I mean to say is that things are not always black and white. There are so many million shades of grey. Black and white seem to be a small exception.

mike lee
01-14-2003, 10:10 AM
Of course not. What I mean to say is that things are not always black and white. There are so many million shades of grey. Black and white seem to be a small exception.

And what I mean to say is that the shades of grey do not hinder me from seeing black and white

opherdonchin
01-14-2003, 10:23 AM
But what we are talking about (as far as I understand) is the energy that Anonymous gets from increased awareness of sexuality following AiKiDo training. Mike wanted to talk about how that might pervert the training by introducing (to his mind innapropriately) sexual thoughts into training. Now he wants to talk about how actually having sex (outside the dojo) may corrupt the purity of your path. Neither of these is really about the point made by the original poster which had more to do with awareness than with actions.

I have always found it interesting and sort of inexplicable that so many religions take such a negative and closed minded view about sexuality. It seems especially weird to me in a religion that can otherwise be so open minded and aware, like Zen.

mike lee
01-14-2003, 10:49 AM
But what we are talking about (as far as I understand) is the energy that Anonymous gets from increased awareness of sexuality following AiKiDo training.
And I agree — it all begins with the mind.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, `You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [Matthew 8:27]

It would then seem reasonable to question whether Anonymous' "method?" of "getting?" energy is appropriate.

Unregistered
01-29-2003, 12:03 PM
I just found this interesting paragraph in John Stevens' "Secrets of Aikido." p.5

"There is another meaning of aiki that is central to true harmony: the consummate union of a man and a woman, a blissful state of complete phsysical and spiritual intimacy. (In Chinese sex manuals, aiki was the term used for the ultimate sexual experience.) The natural and pure integration of male and female principles is at the heart of all creation. Libido should not be mistaken for mere concupiscence but rather should be understood as a sincere yearning for integration and fulfillment. Male and female remain barren until united; the desire to cleave together as one, to restore the primordial unity is a key goal of Aikido (and all other arts)."

shihonage
01-29-2003, 02:51 PM
Looks like a bunch of people here need a cold shower.

Kelly Allen
01-30-2003, 04:49 AM
I got such a laugh out of this thread. It is always extremely funny to see people taking things out of context, or trying to apply there religious views to something that was obviously ment to refer to a psycological response to a physical envionrment. not too much more. Nothing like reading between the lines. Keep up the thread! I'll keep coming back to it to get more laughs.

mike lee
01-30-2003, 05:19 AM
I got such a laugh out of this thread. It is always extremely funny to see people taking things out of context, or trying to apply there religious views to something that was obviously ment to refer to a psycological response to a physical envionrment. not too much more. Nothing like reading between the lines. Keep up the thread! I'll keep coming back to it to get more laughs.
Yes, you are soooo far above and beyond some of us mental midgets. But it's soooo nice of you to stoop down and grace us with your presence, just so you can have a laugh.

Byt the way — are you parcticing the art of aikido or the art of aloofness?

Kelly Allen
01-30-2003, 05:28 AM
hehehe hahaha hohoho har har cough sputter snort!

Ghost Fox
01-30-2003, 10:24 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how people can turn a civil yet passionate discussion and turn it into a name calling and finger pointing event. It's one of the main reasons I don't post very often.

I might not agree with the points people are making, but I don't laugh and reticule people for their beliefs.

For the record I don't agree with Mike's point of view, he tends to be a little Abrahamic in philosphy for my taste, but you don't find me undercutting his post. If I had point to make that wasn't already stated I would state it.

Let's be civil and participate in a healthy Socratic Dialogue.

akiy
01-30-2003, 10:33 AM
I agree with Damion. Please remember, folks, that the very first AikiWeb Forums rule is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect."

With that, let's turn the discussion back to the "Aikido and Libido" subject...

-- Jun

Unregistered
01-30-2003, 02:07 PM
Perhaps the original post author should stick with kata. "Wax on. Wax off. Paint the fence. Upppp. Dowwwnnn." Miyagi Sensei, KARATE KID.

Kevin Wilbanks
01-30-2003, 10:22 PM
I have to say subjecting Kelly to such righteous censure seems pretty myopic. The original poster asked an honest question about their own feelings and experience, and was subjected to a battery of smug, irrelevant moralism... what does the bible, catholicism, and generalized prudery have to do with the original spirit of the discussion? Such an axe-grinding intrusion seems to invite satire in my book. I don't understand why a supposed creed of respect is so often invoked to enforce a Mister-Rogers-esque tone to all discussions.

PeterR
01-30-2003, 10:34 PM
Alright let's do that.

I'm tired after a long hard day and just don't want to go to Aikido or Judo. However, I know that if I do I will feel energized when I leave: mentally, physically and emotionally. I also know that besides sleeping really good that night I am far more likely to enjoy some intimacies with my wife than if I just came home from work and watched telly.

I really don't think its Aikido so much as getting out and exercising. The blood flows to all the right places.

mike lee
01-31-2003, 05:19 AM
what does the bible, catholicism, and generalized prudery have to do with the original spirit of the discussion? Such an axe-grinding intrusion seems to invite satire in my book. I don't understand why a supposed creed of respect is so often invoked to enforce a Mister-Rogers-esque tone to all discussions.
I'll provide a Kelly reaction to this: "hehehe hahaha hohoho har har cough sputter snort!"

Ghost Fox
01-31-2003, 06:02 AM
I have to say subjecting Kelly to such righteous censure seems pretty myopic. The original poster asked an honest question about their own feelings and experience, and was subjected to a battery of smug, irrelevant moralism... what does the bible, catholicism, and generalized prudery have to do with the original spirit of the discussion? Such an axe-grinding intrusion seems to invite satire in my book. I don't understand why a supposed creed of respect is so often invoked to enforce a Mister-Rogers-esque tone to all discussions.
No one's requesting a Mr. Roger's approach to dialogue, only that you attack the issues and not the person. I've read some feverish debates on this website that were well articulated and passionate. By dropping down to the juvinile level of satire and smug reponses your debase the purpose of this forum. The search or truth (& friends) through Socratic Dialogue.

Again, I'm no fan of Judeo-Christian Idealism, but I do respect a man who is passionate about his faith. By the way, I've seen people counter Mike's point, by siting various Taoist and Tantric ideals, what's the difference?

:triangle: :square: :circle:

erikmenzel
01-31-2003, 06:49 AM
It just occured to me that I met quite a few people that said f*ck while doing aikido, but I have never encountered anyone that said Aikido while .... :D :p :cool:

Kevin Wilbanks
01-31-2003, 06:57 AM
By dropping down to the juvinile level of satire and smug reponses your debase the purpose of this forum. The search or truth (& friends) through Socratic Dialogue.

Again, I'm no fan of Judeo-Christian Idealism, but I do respect a man who is passionate about his faith.
Irony overload. You're defending the forum king of the smug insinuation and the ad hominem jab. I see no evidence of anything but a passion for puffed-up righteousness and the denigration of others. Read the archives (or even reread this thread) and get some historical perspective.

Ghost Fox
01-31-2003, 07:52 AM
I'm not defending anyone. I didn't appreciate his last response to you either. I am defending the spirit by which this website was created. Again, I really like some of your other post, and I know you have excellent points to make. Some people rub us the wrong way, just ignore them. Notice that I didn't like the whole Christian slant, so I didn't post. Besides you and some of the others on this website made my point for me.

Please understand that I mean no disrespect, and I'm in no position to chastise anyone. Peace and Blessings.

Kevin Wilbanks
01-31-2003, 10:12 AM
You may well be more tuned in to the spirit of the website than I am. It seems to me more of a general hang-out space than a place dedicated to professionalism and the search for truth, what with the variety of categories and all. My preference for a forum is to allow a certain amount of flaming and general rambunctiousness, and to err on the side of letting things go rather than applying censure. Then again, adminstrating for this forum is not my responsibility.

Incidentally, I don't think much of what goes on here could really be described as "Socratic Dialogue". Socrates generally presented open questions and led discussions by asking more and more questions, allowing the other participants to come to the conclusions themselves (or, get led by the nose to Socrates' conclusions, depending upon your interpretation). In any event, I don't think we have much of it here, just statements, explanations, arguments, half-witted non-sequiturs, etc...

Ghost Fox
01-31-2003, 01:11 PM
I agree with what you say about Socratic Dialogue being lacking on this website. That's why I don't post very much. For the most part it is just people talking to hear themselves talk. Peace and Blessings.

Kelly Allen
02-02-2003, 01:08 AM
Kevin thank you for sticking up for me I much appreciate it. However Damion has a point and I must apologize for my flippantness in my original post (I stick by the taking out of context comment though) and I also apologize for laughing at Mike after he fragged me. If I hadn't been so flipant maybe Mike wouldn't have been so offended. I will in the future try and coin my opinions in a nonconfrontational way. That is of course if I post at all.

Kelly Allen
02-02-2003, 01:15 AM
This is the best laugh I've had in a long time.

Many people experience heightened awareness after beginning a martial arts regime. It happened to me most intensely after a 3 day street defense course. I remember trying to fall asleep to the humming of the refrigerator two rooms away, things I hadn't noticed before became clear to me.

I don't think that Aikido has increased your libido any, I think you are becoming more aware of what that was their all the time.
Apparently I wasn't the only one who was amused. James just made his point without laughing too hard I guess!?:D

cindy perkins
02-23-2003, 12:35 PM
Sorrow, friends. Judgement hurts all.

I am a new poster to this forum. I am impressed with the overwhelming tendency for posters to speak for themselves and not generalize or judge others. Self-examination like Kelly's is particularly admirable in my opinion. Exceptions only prove the rule; by and large these practitioners represent AiKiDo well.

To respond to Anonymous' original question, I firmly believe that morality lies in intention and action, not in thought or feeling. If one sits zazen, one sees thoughts and feelings arise and pass away completely without one's volition or control. If I notice the sexual attractiveness of a person who is not appropriate for me to have sex with, that is an experience, choiceless and morally neutral. If I prolong or indulge in the fantasy, speak of it or act on it, I am making moral (immoral) choices.

AiKiDo involves energy. Sexual energy is just energy in one of its forms. Especially as a beginner, I am discovering all sorts of energy. I have learned more about joy, anxiety, fear, pain, the rush of muscles actually doing what they should, balance, thirst, sexual energy, respect/hero worship... Physical working out is part of it, but I think a big piece is the intimacy necessary to connect with my practice partner's "center" and to blend with their energy.

Another thing that has happened for me in practicing is I realize how little the rest of my life allows me to explore the realm of "fleshiness." In fact, this culture would like to deny that I can recognize my son's scent or enjoy lying in a heap with a bunch of friends. About the only thing acceptable to do with this set of feelings and experiences is sex. So sorting out what all these sensations and feelings mean has been a new learning for me. There is nothing sexual in my experience of encountering a trusted partner's physical strength. It's kind of a internal shock, not unpleasant, but really unusual. But it took me some time to figure out that this feeling didn't mean I was getting a crush on him or wanted to take him to bed!

So, Anon., take your time and check out these feelings. And enjoy; it is part of the whole world of human experience!

mike lee
02-24-2003, 04:53 AM
If I prolong or indulge in the fantasy, speak of it or act on it, I am making moral (immoral) choices.
Lacking a moral compass, failure is all but assured.

ikkainogakusei
02-25-2003, 01:29 PM
Hi all

To address the beginning of this thread, yes libido can increase, I would guess that it would be due to activity, but I'm sure that the origin depends on the individual.

Also, I think that many of us have misgivings about the assumptions and codes of others. I would agree that it can be a bummer when you are a minority (ratio 1 chick : 7 guys) in a class and somebody decides that they want to be closer than you do. Recently, I had someone give me the wrong kind of contact, even though he was in a very long-term committed relationship. <sigh> However I find it interesting to observe the actions of individuals doing kokyu dosa.

I think that some people detach their psyche from their body in some cases, as a defense mechanism. Still others may over-engage in order to feel still in control. Many of these techniques are inherently intimate, and for many of us it's un-nerving.

To shreik in response to someone attempting to address some element of this <picture Donald Sutherland at the end of Invasion Of The Body Snatchers> is to shut down an important subject that could be expanded.

We think of Musubi as a timing connection, in terms of spatial understanding, but there is more than that in terms of connection. Some of it might be seen as sexual, but some of it might be misconstrued.

I have been chided on this site by another for (lightly) connecting with another over kinesiology. We were simply discussing things in wich we had a mutual interest, but were teased over it (I can only assume) because I'm a woman, and he's a guy.

I have had a connection of sorts with other male aikidoka, and had no interest in them sexually, I just -=really=- liked the way we trained together. I appreciated the eye contact and the engagement, as well as the timing, and in some cases the improvisation which lead to good keiko. This doesn't mean I want to have sex with them.

Sure I am a sexual being, but I can separate sex, and intimacy, and even love. Just because I connect (figuratively) with someone does not mean that I must, or want to connect (literally).

:ai:

cindy perkins
02-25-2003, 02:43 PM
nicely put

ikkainogakusei
02-25-2003, 06:15 PM
nicely put
thanks :) :ai:

jducusin
02-28-2003, 12:03 AM
In regards to the original poster's issue...perhaps he's been applying Ki extension to the wrong extremity? ;)

Paula Lydon
02-28-2003, 07:56 AM
~~Yep, just another form of energy movement. One more thing to learn about and come to understand the phases of, like rising anger, test anxiety, desire to dominate, etc., whatever comes up (hehe) in you. :)

Jane Woodcock
05-05-2003, 04:14 PM
I don't know how you can possibly say aikido gives you a better libido. I'm usually to shattered and feel to 'achey'to do anything other than sleep after a class. Or maybe I need to stop training so hard. mmmmmmmm

Kelly Allen
05-15-2003, 03:23 AM
In regards to the original poster's issue...perhaps he's been applying Ki extension to the wrong extremity? ;)
LOL Jamie! Your Aikikai! Your not supposed to beleive in KI.:p

Guess whos comin to pay a visit to your dojo for a couple of weeks.:D

jducusin
05-15-2003, 10:15 AM
LOL Jamie! Your Aikikai! Your not supposed to beleive in KI.:p

Guess whos comin to pay a visit to your dojo for a couple of weeks.:D
Hey Kelly, when will you be coming out? Looks like someone could use that visit to our dojo! Hehehe ;-) In case anyone misunderstood, we definitely do believe in Ki, and actually do exercises to this effect --- albeit not as often as those in Ki Society :-)

Kelly Allen
05-16-2003, 04:44 AM
I'm going to try and make it to tonights class. The dojo will be electrified with my ki's presence. Either that or you'll all just point and laugh while I'm wheezing and gasping for air because I'm not in the best of arobic shape.

jducusin
05-16-2003, 07:36 AM
I'm going to try and make it to tonights class. The dojo will be electrified with my ki's presence. Either that or you'll all just point and laugh while I'm wheezing and gasping for air because I'm not in the best of arobic shape.
Great! It'll be good to have some new folks out.

Hey, don't worry about it --- that pointing and laughing stuff? It's just that spirit of Aiki love and harmony that you'll be bringing into the dojo :D Aikido isn't supposed to be aerobic anyway! I mean, heck --- if O Sensei could throw folks around without even touching them, you'll do just fine, right? ;)

Hope to see you out!

Kelly Allen
05-17-2003, 02:40 AM
Ended up haveing a friend from out of town come over for dinner. I guess I'll see you next week instead.

jducusin
05-17-2003, 03:44 PM
Ended up haveing a friend from out of town come over for dinner. I guess I'll see you next week instead.
No problem --- it turned out to be a pretty small class anyway. See you next week!

Lorien Lowe
06-16-2003, 02:13 PM
I've been training for about three years now, and I've started to notice some of the newbie-guys giving me a horrible awe-filled look from time to time. It's not love, or even attraction really; it's just what Cindy and Jane were describing. I think it's just the hard-wired impact of physical contact on a social species whose culture allows very little physical contact in other areas, combined with that innitial awe over what aikido can do.

While it's true, for me at least, that sexuality should be kept strictly off the mat, I think that this physicality is something different - and it seems obvious in the body language, now, when someone is getting the two confused.

-LK

Unregistered
06-18-2003, 01:43 PM
So mike, if sex is wrong, then technically your parents are both immoral beings and you are a mistake comitted by fools who lost the path?

mike lee
06-19-2003, 12:49 AM
Lust is wrong, love is right.

ikkainogakusei
06-19-2003, 01:27 AM
Lust is wrong, love is right.
So if you lust after someone you love, and they love you back, are you doing them wrong?

:ai: :freaky: :ai:

mike lee
06-19-2003, 01:45 AM
So if you lust after someone you love, and they love you back, are you doing them wrong?
Lust is wrong, love is right.

ikkainogakusei
06-19-2003, 05:12 PM
Lust is wrong, love is right.
Ah the planet Platonia, in the system Extremidae. I see it in the distance, I do not know it well.

;)

mike lee
06-24-2003, 06:28 AM
The Buddhist sutras define ignorance as the inability to distinguish right from wrong.

Proceeding on the path of ignorance is not Tao. By engaging in the practice of aikdo, we are supposed to be practicing a Tao, an enlightened way or the Great Way.

Practicing aikido in a state of ignorance will only yield small results.

Unregistered
06-24-2003, 08:02 AM
Mike, what do I get for practicing half in ignorance? (I still have difficulty distinguishing right from left?)

mike lee
06-24-2003, 08:14 AM
Mike, what do I get for practicing half in ignorance?
You tell me.

ikkainogakusei
06-24-2003, 02:56 PM
The Buddhist sutras define ignorance as the inability to distinguish right from wrong.

Proceeding on the path of ignorance is not Tao. By engaging in the practice of aikdo, we are supposed to be practicing a Tao, an enlightened way or the Great Way.

Practicing aikido in a state of ignorance will only yield small results.
By stating that I do not know something well I am hinting that it is not something that I follow. I believe that I can distinguish right from wrong. We may both have a different understanding of the word lust and I would hazard a guess that neither of us 'knows' lust by Socratic definition.

If we were to consider the definition of lust as an 'overwhelming desire or craving..an intense eagerness or enthusiasm' or even in the obselete fashion of 'Pleasure; relish.' It is understandable that isolating the word desire and magnifying it in an extreme way, then applying a tennet of Buddhism (oversimplified) 'all desire begets pain' then yes one could conclude all_lust_is_bad. But what of a 'lust for life'? Is this bad? Could verve be a sin? I could not see it in that fashion.

To discuss a word/concept/state of mind/being in absolutes and ignore its other potentialities, might cause one to willfully blind themselves from the view of it in-the-round. To ignore the full view could be a state of ignorance as well. My humble impression of the Tao, or the Way is that 'only' does not preceed it.

This line of thought does interest me. However, it lends itself to a style of discussion which has been discouraged on this site. So I put it to you Mike; send me an email and we can continue it without holding others hostage.

ikkainogakusei@yahoo.com

:ai: :) :ai:

cbrf4zr2
06-24-2003, 06:46 PM
In response to the original post...

Yes, it heightens it. I am probably one of the most intense people I know. My motto is "If you don't feel like throwing up when you are done, you haven't trained hard enough." That goes for Aikido, and it applies to me playing football, and when I used to play basketball, when I run, when I lift, when I do everything.

That being said - while I am on the mat, on the field, on the court, on the street, at the gym, I am fully concentrated with what I do. Sometimes I'm fully exhausted, but I have a quick recovery time and within an hour or so, I'm wired. Sometimes I feel like going for another run, playing another game, doing another set, training longer, and yes...sometimes it involves wishing I was going home to someone to have "fun" with.

Kyri Honigh
06-24-2003, 11:06 PM
All positive feelings as in trust, caring and such should be welcomed in a dojo.But I think you shouldn't let any kind of feeling interfere with training.If your awareness of somebody being sexually attractive is bothering someone, then that feeling shouldn't be expressed at least. ( Good time to check if you aren't sexually/emotionally frustrated!!!) :)

My God as a seventeen year old, I am confused about the feelings a lot of adults get when doing aikido...Hehhehe

mike lee
06-27-2003, 05:26 AM
But what of a 'lust for life'? Is this bad?
No. It just doesn't make sense. I think the phrase is "a zest for life."

Corrupted zest may become lust. The wise know the difference. The ignorant don't.

mike lee
06-27-2003, 05:31 AM
Good time to check if you aren't sexually/emotionally frustrated!!!
What would you do if your were?

Jesse Lee
06-27-2003, 10:54 AM
In reply to the original post: Aikido has heightened my awareness of energy and interaction, and sometimes I get into the "it's a lot like dancing" aikido groove. My wife might derive the occasional benefit therefrom, I suppose....

But what has really complicated my love life is my BJJ training. I wonder if any other BJJ comrades suffer as I do, from a significant other's merciless teasing and innuendo of what happens during BJJ "training" that consists of wrestling and flopping around on the mat?

And if she suspects that even the merest hint of ju jitsu is being sneakily applied whilst we are in the clinch, hoo boy do I get a fun little earful of protestation.

OK... did I just share too much?

ikkainogakusei
06-27-2003, 11:00 AM
No. It just doesn't make sense. I think the phrase is "a zest for life." Corrupted zest may become lust. I'm going to reply, but we should continue this on another thread. I'll start one in the 'open discussions'area.

In doing a search on 'lust for life' in google, I found 871,000 references. Dictionary.com actually uses 'lust for life' in it's definition (2b) of lust. Though zest and lust are synonamous, there are only 144,000 references on Google; and the on-line dictionary references I know of do not use zest for life as material to define the word zest.

Though you find that the term 'lust for life' does not make sense, it is more established to the rest of the (english speaking) world as the dominant aphorism, rather than 'zest for life'.

As zest and lust are referred to as synonyms in the thesaurus, it might be important to look at other synonyms. Under lust you may find hope, zeal, zest, energy, enterprise, spirit, avidity and other words which have less sexual connotations. The wise know the difference. The ignorant don't. Ah yes, it must be grand to be wise. I have never known a person to have truly arrived at the final and highest state of sagacity, it must be truly wonderful.

And yes, your last statement is very telling. Great wisdom coming from great acuminate head.

:p :triangle: :)

Bruce Baker
07-07-2003, 08:12 AM
In the application of Libido .... where are your lines for morality drawn?

How much does your body's urges control you, and how much do you want to control those urges or satisfy them?

It sure don't happen before you hit your 30s, at least in my experience. The constant urge to reproduce and carry on the species is so strong that emotions usually win out over logic or clear thought, but urges and emotions don't have to win.

What is it gonna take?

It is gonna take time and experience to get control of that libido. Just like trainig a wild animal, those emotions and urges will never truly be tamed or under control, but they will follow the dictates of your morality because it is easier to follow these moral paths than to resist.

I don't know when it will happen for you, I am just turning 50 and I am just getting a whole of the this concept to the point I can describe how it works.

You go to practice Aikido because there are things you need to learn in the area of martial arts, and aikido can teach you some of those points. Get caught up in the libido, well, you might as well just give up cause you are wasteing your time, on learning to focus, and the physical practice can be invalidated by anyone with focus.

Unless you can refocus and use that libido as an energy source, the signals you might need to visualize when practice becomes necessity will be all wrong.

Gee .... I need to get aroused to fight to my full potential .... this person really turns me off ... I think I had better run for my life screaming for mercy?

Silly, Huh?

Not really.

Training is an attempt to control and focus the rage of battle into energy that does not cloud the mind, or inhibit the body. The same state of mind you would be in for the fight of your life is what you are trying to achieve with practice, but to be in control of your mind and body, not in a mindless brute rage.

Libido? Well, giving in to libido with my wife is a whole lot of fun, but it certainly gets in the way for training. There is a time and place for everything. You certainly would like to treat people the way you would like to be treated, and hopefully that is a good thing, not some dark twisted dream world.

Turn that libido into something positive,even though it will take time and experience to do that ... give it time, let the process create the separation of training and love life, because the emotional ties of bringing the two together are a killer.

Everyone is seaching for someone, to find a soulmate, don't let that instinctual urge overwhelm you. Instead, take two steps back, do the right thing, and see where it goes. Just let practice happen because it is practice, and realize that one day, the protocols you set in your mind for your moral character will get enough control that your practice will be ten times more inciteful than it is today.

Why? Not because you have learned to control libido, but because the emotional catalysts that increase the reactions of instinctual libido will be controled by morality, proper visualizaton of mind to body, and time has satisfied most of those lustful thoughts in such a manner, that you know your limits, and practice is no longer withing the libido forum.

At least not it will be under control ... more or less.

Give it time. Put things into perspective. It will work out.

Why do you think old guys have such good transition skills? Libido is where it is supposed to be .... and it ain't on the dojo practice mat.

man_of_aiki_and_kendo
07-30-2004, 01:33 PM
ooopps....I have been practicing Aikido for almost 8 years

...not sure if it helps increase libido but if it does, I'd be absolutely happy hahaha

Probably I need to pay more attention on my female Aikido partners and see if their libido increase haha

--------d2fantasy@hotmail.com--------

Jeanne Shepard
08-03-2004, 10:16 PM
I think Aikido is sort of like dancing, an excuse, in our cold society, to put our arms around someone.

(I like to dance, too!)

Jeanne

Rocky Izumi
12-08-2004, 11:23 AM
One of the main purposes of Aikido: Ki-iku, Tai-iku, Toku-iku, Joshiki-no-Kanyo.
(Development of the Spirit, Development of the Body, Development of the Ethics, Development of Common Sense)

When developing Spirit and Body in Aikido, we develop them without reference to any particular use, but through Aikido. The Spirit and Body can be used for many things including fighting, sex, work, play, etc. So it is undoubted that if the Spirit and Body are being developed, they can be focused towards Lust and Libido as well as the practice of Aikido. This is natural.
However, if we let our Spirit or Body get in the way of our development, then we will no longer develop. If a feeling of frustration, a feeling of lust, a feeling of anger, a feeling of superiority are imbued with our Spirit and Body, then that feeling gets in the way of our further development for the feeling takes over the practice. At the same time, if the feelings are not accepted and harmonised with our activity, then we will not develop either. We must inbue our Spirit and Body with those feeling, not the other way around.
We must also consider the development of our Ethics and Common Sense. To allow behaviour other than the practice of good Aikido in the dojo is poor Ethics and poor Common Sense. So we do not act out our lust or dislike in the dojo.
Rule in my dojo. Feel what you like. Act properly in the dojo. That goes for lust, hate, dislike, love, displeasure, enjoyment. You should feel all those things in the dojo, and more. However, act appropriately. In publc, as representatives of the dojo, act appropriately. In privacy, do what you like. Kind of like smoking.

Rock

markwalsh
12-08-2004, 12:46 PM
"sort of like dancing"

Good title for a book that :)
Only joking, I agree, though I think some people don't stay with aikido for the same reason. The close contact freaks them out. I heard of a dojo where everyone hugs each other at the end of class, thought that was sweet, though maybe a bit OTT.

I think that that the need for/fear of, human touch is a separate issue from libido though. Different drive, but obviously they're grey areas.

Do it often, do it well, do it carefully,
Mark

PS Mr Izumi are you really posting about libido from a place called "bottom bay"? [Juvenile giggles] :)

Rocky Izumi
12-08-2004, 01:24 PM
PS Mr Izumi are you really posting about libido from a place called "bottom bay"? [Juvenile giggles] :)
Yes, and finally, someone noticed. But it has not to do with the libido but with the key characteristic of the Aiki-Penitents (see General thread on "Shodothugs, etc.)

Rock

thomas_dixon
12-09-2004, 04:02 PM
I don't know how to phrase this delicately, has anyone else noticed an increase in libido after beginning aikido training? Through the training and physical contact I am starting to have a realization of people's "fleshiness." Other people seem more real to me somehow. This new sense has caused me to see members of the opposite sex in a new light. In everyday interactions I have a more physical sense of their being. Maybe it's a natural side effect of aikido training?
Maybe it's just me. :)

If you're a guy it's because you're probably more active than before and therefore have an increase in testosterone levels resulting in said effect.

Anon1
12-09-2004, 05:35 PM
Whether it can be termed good or bad, black or white, or any other value-added pair of opposites, instant pangs of "hit-you-in-the-gut" attraction happen (as well as the slower approach), on or off the mat. It's how you deal with it under the given circumstances that counts.

Unless you're in a marriage someone arranged for you, you most likely found your significant other (if you have one, that is) because you were attracted to him/her and managed to act appropriately. In training, it's just another thing to learn from. I don't think not acknowledging that this happens is desirable. Not acting on it can very well be.

Humans are social animals, every day we react to millions of things about each other that our conscious "me" is not aware of until the effect fully manifests itself. If aikido is about connecting, we must acknowledge all those things, even those we don't like, in ourselves and each other.