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locknthrow
01-06-2003, 02:42 AM
I may be late on this but have any of you guys seen the web clips on the systema stuff?
That is some wild stuff..these guys are moving slow but the uke looks like he's taking a beating. they say it is a martial "science" and not full of metaphysical stuff. could their theory be the key to Osensei's power. I have just looked at it for one night but I thought I would get some input before I got too excited about it.

http://groups.msn.com/RMAHamilton/videoclips.msnw

Steven
01-06-2003, 09:20 AM
This topic is being beat to death over on AikidoJournal.com. You might wish to go join the rat-race over there.

... Peace ...

opherdonchin
01-06-2003, 03:33 PM
Can you link to the thread?

Steven
01-06-2003, 03:43 PM
The one that started it all is called Russian "Aiki" (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001584)

The second is Systema links and video clips on the net (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001594)

... Peace ...

locknthrow
01-07-2003, 02:48 AM
Yeah I know but I like the atmosphere here better. Over there they seem to not talk much about the system but just argue back and forth about everything but the "system". I just wanted some of the people here to take a look at some of the videos and tell me what they thought. I really have no opinion of it yet. If anybody wants to email me privately that's fine too if they think it will cause a stink here.

PeterR
01-07-2003, 03:20 AM
I tried looking at the video's but my computer wont let me. Something about Codecs.

shihonage
01-07-2003, 03:32 AM
I have two of the Systema tapes.

Systema seems to have great emphasis on using your body parts independently to deflect and absorb strikes.

Systema students on tape move a lot like, well... jello.

Their way of multiple attacker drill looks like amateur breakdancing.

shadow
01-07-2003, 05:41 AM
i watched a couple of the clips and it looked ok. nothing really that impressive. actually tonight in class my sensei was demonstrating a particular technique, and then he showed what he would do if he wasn't concerned so much with throwing and it looked exactly like what those guys in the clips look to be honest.

Ta Kung
01-07-2003, 07:41 AM
Low quality clips. It didn't give me anything but a headache... sorry.

Alphete
01-07-2003, 07:45 AM
Wow! This is something really...."weird":confused: (???)

I started to read some of the threads you refered in the links, and as soon as I started reading, and the warnings about No Magic!!! in the video...I instantly thought: "Well, finally all the telekinetic powers the russians were trying to develop during cold war got the form of a MA"

Even watching one of the videos (the one with the instructor playing arround with uke with spectacular ukemis from slight movements) it's difficult not to think is fake. Even more watching the belly-waza thing.

But as many of the posters that didn't felt that MA, I of course cannot make any statement.

It looks pretty much like any other MA that uses the attacker's energy....but I still cannot SEE how uke can actually receive more energy that the one he first put in the attack.

Ta Kung
01-07-2003, 08:43 AM
I agree with Pablo. On the otherhand, I did find Aikido to look a bit faked and magical when I was a wee boy. Especially Nikkyo. Until I felt it, that is. Ouch! :)

/Patrik

Vincentharris
01-07-2003, 09:30 AM
but I still cannot SEE how uke can actually receive more energy that the one he first put in the attack.

I think i might be able to help here a little bit. I haven't been involved in Aikido for even six months yet but I'm crazy about it. It comes down to a matter of physics really. Take a rubber ball and throw it against a wall and see how much harder/faster that it comes back.

Hope this helps.

opherdonchin
01-07-2003, 09:51 AM
I also watched the one with the non-slim spetzna and the uke in camaflouge pants. Whatever else may be 'real' or 'magic' about their art (and I tend to believe that they are doing something interesting), the ukemi I saw in that tape was very impressive. People don't move like that without putting a lot of time and focus into their practice.

Talon
01-07-2003, 10:08 AM
Sorry to be a stickler but the Rubber ball will never come back as hard as you throw it. It would have to have a restitution value of more than one. If such things were possible when you threw the ball down from a certain height it would keep bouncing higer and higer and never stop. That doesnt happen, the ball bounces lowere and lower untill it stops. There is nothing in this life for free, no free energy no perpetual motion machines.

Although Aikido may look fake sometimes at least I can see its movement and projections. Furthermore, aikido uses joint locks that you can see (and definitely feel when youre an Uke). There is an interaction in Aikido between the tori and the uke. Aikido is done at some or full speed when mastered and it doesnt typically look fake at that time.

I hate to say it but the systema clips that I saw look extremely fake, slow and frankly look like the stuff that I did as a kid when I played with my friends when we staged fights in slow motion. I hate to be a skeptic but I just dont see how it can be anything else.

I would like to see it real speed. Is there any videos out there where the (Masters) actually do it real speed?

I dont see how it can be real mainly because when you look at the tori, he barely moves in most of these videos, he doesnt move offline, he doesnt use his hips, the doesnt put the uke's arm in a lock etc..etc..etc... and the uke magically keeps on falling. The tori barely even moves his hands...WOW.....Maybe he has the Uke hipnotized or something.

all I can say is I definitely not impressed by these clips. Maybe there are some other ones that would change my mind but these all look fake to me. A bunch of people playing around like kids in slow motion all that they should do is add some sound effects to the hits and throws like we did when we were kids.

Vincentharris
01-07-2003, 10:13 AM
that was one of the videos that I watched and i'd give my right arm (make that my left) to have ukemi as good as those. I'm still really new to Aikido and I've never been taught that there's any "magic" to it and I don't know anyone that has.

Aikido is very effective and alot more gentle than what I'm seeing here in these systema videos. I just about wholeheartedly disagree with their punching and kicking system from what little i can make out of it in the videos. I can't get most of them to load.

I really don't mean to be critical of any other forms but I can't in good conscience compare what i'm seeing in these videos to Aikido at all. This stuff is simply declassified spetnza techniques which more like modified judo then anything else.

locknthrow
01-07-2003, 11:43 AM
In one of the clips at the end where the guy is attacking big belly with the knife, they said this guy is attacking full speed. If you watch when he stabs at big belly its pretty quick. They said this guy skeptic that wanted to test it. I know they can "say" anything but if you watch all the students in the back kind of giggle when the guy takes a beating. Uke , in this one, even looks a little surprised when he's ends up on the mat and finally starts clapping as if to say yes it does work. I know all those things don't prove anything. However the way the students react and the way uke looks when he's getting "systemed" looks like how I've seen people react when they find out Aikido is real. Thanks for everyones opinion, and thinks for not getting into silly arguements about periods, spelling and everything else. I love this forum 100 times better than that "other" one.

They do look like they are moving in jello. lol

when I was in Bujinkan we were trained to have different ukemi than in Aikido. It was more of a rolling type movement with breakfalls. I can't really explain it in words. I remember Hatsumi said with high level students you shouldn't be able to hear them practicing. I felt less pain doing ukemi in Bujinkan but then it might have been just bad instruction from the people that taught me Aikido in the past.

shihonage
01-07-2003, 12:53 PM
...I'm still really new to Aikido...

...alot more gentle than what I'm seeing here in these systema videos...

...I just about wholeheartedly disagree with their punching and kicking...

I really don't mean to be critical of any other forms but I can't in good conscience compare what i'm seeing in these videos to Aikido at all. This stuff is simply declassified spetnza techniques which more like modified judo then anything else.
If Spetznas practiced anything, it would be boxing and SAMBO.

This "system" has little if anything to do with any "special forces".

It's called "selling hype".

Erik
01-07-2003, 02:01 PM
I responded to the thread on Aikido Journal but it spun strangely as was already mentioned. For me, watching the clips and video, I see the following good and bad things.

Good

1. They seemingly have a strong sense of when the attack initiates.

2. Some name people have recommended them. I bought the tape based on a suggestion George Ledyard made here for instance. James Williams of Bugei is also associated with them in some way. A couple of people I know also recommended it.

3. Their knife stuff had some good parts.

4. I also like the relaxed flowing nature of some of the stuff Iíve seen.

The Bad

1. The ukes often look bad. In particular, the ones used by Ryabko (may have that wrong) seem exceptionally bad. Whether it is or not, it often looks like flopping 101.

2. Some of the stuff, particularly clips I saw, showed stuff that many 4th and 3rd kyus do with regularity, with equal skill and against more competent ukes.

3. The Russian element is worrisome to me. One of the warning signs is when a martial art comes out of nowhere claiming some strange hidden legacy. The Special Forces stuff is also worrisome.

4. They also seem to talk about some elements of psychic stuff. I donít know what that means but for me itís also a warning sign.

What Iíd like to see demonstrated is a full-on attack by a competent uke. Iím talking about good clean and direct attacks, even at the level often complained about in our art. It would go a long way to satisfy the questions.

Overall, if I had a chance to catch them, and they will be at Expo 2003, Iíd do it. I'd do it for no other reason than to satisfy my questions.

opherdonchin
01-07-2003, 02:29 PM
I'm never a big fan of discussions that are about 'does this work.' I don't like it when it's about AiKiDo, and I think I like it even less when discussing other arts.

To me, the big question is not 'does it work' but 'what can I learn from this.' Of course, the answer may by 'nothing' but that's almost certainly about my own limitations as much as the art.

shihonage
01-07-2003, 03:03 PM
I'm never a big fan of discussions that are about 'does this work.' I don't like it when it's about AiKiDo, and I think I like it even less when discussing other arts.

To me, the big question is not 'does it work' but 'what can I learn from this.'
Wait, so you don't care about a martial art's martial efficiency ?

This is too deep for me.

(drowns)

Talon
01-07-2003, 11:10 PM
Did anyone on Aikiweb actually go to a Systema seminar or tried it at their school? If so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Russian System.

opherdonchin
01-08-2003, 12:42 AM
Wait, so you don't care about a martial art's martial efficiency ?Maybe a better way to put it is that I don't believe that there is such a thing as 'martial efficiency' abstractly defined. I suspect that there are some things that these guys do well and other things they don't do as well. It's interesting to notice when they are being particularly efficient, effective, deep, insightful, or innovative. That would help me understand what they might have to offer me. For instance, I noticed that the uke in the video I watched was doing some amazing stuff that I'd find quite difficult with my training. I thought all of Eric Haselhofer's (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=37546#post37546) comments were very interesting, especially the one about timing. "Does it work" is a question that isn't very relevant unless you are actually training the art and then it is a question each person will inevitably need to answer for themselves because it only matters if it works for them.

Duarh
01-08-2003, 05:09 AM
Personally, I've become kind of reluctant to pass judgement on the effectiveness of ANY art I have not experienced first-hand. This is because of the innumerable times I've been told that "they're just jumping around" and "they're throwing themselves very nicely" in reference to high-level aikido demonstrations.

locknthrow
01-12-2003, 01:09 AM
Been reading all I can get On Systema, those guys sure put alot of emphasis on breathing. they answer alot of tough questions with solid answers instead of "keep training"...been reading alot on their forum board

Mark Jakabcsin
09-23-2003, 08:03 PM
I am wondering if any of the posters (or readers)of this old thread attended any of the Systema classes at the Aiki Expo. If so what were your thoughts?

mark

Johnny Chiutten
09-24-2003, 12:46 AM
I may be late on this but have any of you guys seen the web clips on the systema stuff?

That is some wild stuff..these guys are moving slow but the uke looks like he's taking a beating. they say it is a martial "science" and not full of metaphysical stuff. could their theory be the key to Osensei's power. I have just looked at it for one night but I thought I would get some input before I got too excited about it.

http://groups.msn.com/RMAHamilton/videoclips.msnw
Hi Mike.

Very interesting clips! They are practising a very high form of training. What I saw from the clips were techniques in sticking with their hands and whole body for an all round martial ability. It teaches the principles of combat. Sensitivity,Body unity, loosenes, balance and power. I think this is a superior way to train, as it teaches you principles rather than forms and you move to whatever the moment dictates without preconception.

Shamely there are only a few schools which teaches this. (to my knowledge)Chi Kuan Do in NY. invisiblemaster & Yang Mian in AustraliaAustralia

kironin
09-24-2003, 01:26 AM
I am wondering if any of the posters (or readers)of this old thread attended any of the Systema classes at the Aiki Expo. If so what were your thoughts?

mark
Well, I just caught this thread but I went to all the Systema classes at the Aiki Expo and saw the demo. So I will put out some thoughts.

VV was a very relaxed unassuming teacher. He clearly wasn't there to try to prove anything but simply teach and have fun. There were a number of students of his there and they in general had a pretty good attitude and really enthusiastic about what they were doing and their teacher just like you find aikido students.

Systema is mostly concerned with free sparring and most of the classes involved doing exercises to get you to the point of just being able to respond freeform. Exercises taught principles and relaxation. Much of it was quite compatible with Aikido. This is more evident when taking class with VV than the videos. For example the Jello analogy really isn't correct, they are more often moving off line just like an aikidoist would.

On video,

I had seen some of the video before going. Some of it was interesting and some of it left me with questions.

On Friday evening, VV had a decent demo but apparently was a little nervous in front of a large crowd and the students moved a touch little too slow like some on the videos for my taste to be convincing. Still some nice things happened. In the classes, I noted that VV picked students of various levels for demonstration. Some of the students had a less than a year training and made not smart attacks and he modulated his responses to not harm them. Most of the time during the classes the demos were part of the slow sparring exercises and the tapes out there seem to often just reflect this training. However, I saw him do some nice off the cuff fast full speed freestyle sparring with 1 to 3 of his senior students. I practiced with these students and they clearly were not to be messed with. When they attacked at those nice full speed moments, they were not making dumb attacks and it was evident they were having fun trying to get him. I consider that a good sign - senior students trust VV both in ability and decency enough to really go after him.

as to no touch, on the MB tape I was a little concerned because some of it looked like group think trance behavior. In person, VV did pure no touch only in slow spar mode where the attacker always had time to respond appropriately. At full speed, I noticed no touch still happened but in the midst of real contact. Sometimes the attackers mind just got caught. This just like Aikido IMO.

and as to it being hype and coming out of the blue, VV has had a school in Canada since 1993. The first tapes were made back in 1996. And to the connection to Spetznatz, they have an annual trip to Russia that James Williams has gone on that involves training at military installations with MB who seems to be clearly still with strong active connections. Systema is not his day job.

In all, I enjoyed VV's classes. There was some good stuff on relaxation and breathing, their method of striking, dealing with kicks, knives and multiple attackers. Pat Hendricks Sensei and Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei attended at least one class. Maybe Jun can say what Ikeda Sensei thought of it. :D



Craig

SeiserL
09-24-2003, 01:52 PM
I am wondering if any of the posters (or readers)of this old thread attended any of the Systema classes at the Aiki Expo. If so what were your thoughts?
I was there, Saw the demo and attended the workshop. Interesting stuff.

Stay relaxed.

Breath.

Move all body parts independently.

Multiple light redirects to balance points.

Uses of wave type energy from the hips.

Very positive, even playful.

Very Aiki, but very exagerated.