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diesel
12-30-2002, 12:19 PM
Anyone know of a good online source, with pictures preferrably, of different koshinages? I know there are quite a few..

Also, would most judo throws be considered koshis in the aikido sense?


Thanks,
Eric

Greg Jennings
12-30-2002, 01:51 PM
Hi Eric,

There are good clips on http://www.ysaohio.com/ . The dojo sells a much, much more complete set.

All of us have things that we do better or worse: McVey Sensei is especially good at koshinage.

IMHO, many judo throws are not koshinage in a strict aikido sense, although some are.

Good judo feels like good aikido to me when I'm on the receiving end. From nage's point of view, my strict definition of aikido involves both feet being anchored on the ground in the throw. Many judo throws involve standing on one foot and executing part of the throw with the other.

Don't get me wrong. I like judo. I'd study judo if it was available to me. I just think they are two different flavors of ice cream...both of which are very tasty.

FWIW,

opherdonchin
12-30-2002, 07:57 PM
No sweeps in your AiKiDo, Greg? There are definately sweeps in ASU and they weren't foreign to me in Seidokan, either.

Greg Jennings
12-30-2002, 09:30 PM
99% of the time we're either in hanmi or transitioning from/to hanmi.

I did see Saito Sensei demonstrate a low kick (thrust front kick to the knee) once. Some of our kaeshiwaza are sacrifice throws. My instructor teaches kaiten nage with a knee to uke's face thrown in as part of the final step forward with the inside knee.

Not quite standing on one foot and not quite both feet firmly on the mat, we also occasionally prevent uke from regaining his balance by stepping on the foot that he needs to move.

But no de ashi harai, hiza guruma, or sasae tsurikomi ashi. No osoto gari. Etc. etc.

I've trained with many aikido instructors (USAF East, Yoshinkan, ASU, Ki Society, Kokikai and several independents) and never seen one of them demonstrate a prototypical standing on one foot technique w/o some sort of caveat like "now let's do some judo".

Saotome Sensei once said "this is Tai Ki Do" and "this is really ukemi, not an aikido technique" (it was a kani basami).

We also much prefer to keep our upper body more or less either straight up and down or aligned with our rear leg (with our front knee just occulting our front big toe). Maybe 80-90% of the time. We more often break this to maneuver into a advantageous position, but we seldom throw from such a position. Certainly nothing like osotogari.

Like I said, I like judo. But I, like many aikido and judo practicitioners have my own personal gauge to say "that looked like judo" or "that looked like aikido".

It's my understanding that Kobayashi Sensei took all the koshinage out of Seidokan. Interesting that some sweeps were added in.

Best Regards,

Bronson
12-31-2002, 03:08 AM
It's my understanding that Kobayashi Sensei took all the koshinage out of Seidokan. Interesting that some sweeps were added in.

Yeah, he did. Most head controls too. Of course he also allowed individual instructors the freedom to develop their own versions of the techniques. But if you watch the tapes of Kobayashi sensei (either the basic or advanced arts) you won't see many, if any, koshinage, head controls, atemi, classic iriminage, sayunage, or foot sweeps. Of course you won't find ground techniques either but we do them (along with versions of all those other things too)in my sensei's dojo and it's seidokan. As I understand it Kobayashi sensei was more concerned with the principle end of things. From what I gather as long as the basic principles are present the outward appearance of the technique is really secondary.

Bronson

Michael Neal
12-31-2002, 09:42 AM
Judo's Uki Goshi & O Goshi are just about the same as Aikido's koshinage.

Thalib
12-31-2002, 09:53 AM
I thought it was close to seoi-nage... or is there such a thing called koshi-guruma?

Michael Neal
12-31-2002, 11:25 AM
I think (with my limited experience) with seoi-nage you grab uke's collar and throw him over your back. Uki goshi is a simple hip throw like kosinage, the only difference that I can tell is that in the judo version nage holds on to uke arm during the throw.

willy_lee
12-31-2002, 03:45 PM
Michael, didn't you post recently saying you were starting judo and asking for recommendations?

If so, how is the judo going? Are you enjoying it? Any thoughts about differences, similarities to aikido?

=wl

Thalib
12-31-2002, 04:24 PM
We had a Judo-ka that was under the national coach train with us a few times. He was very humble and was very enthusiastic about Aikido. He was really the type that really could "empty the cup".

He studied Aikido sincerely without "testing" any of the other students. His attitude was much better than the some of the students there. I enjoy his presence at the dojo.

He said he wasn't prepared to leave Judo yet, but at one point he might because of his injuries. He also said that after learning Aikido, his Judo became "lighter". He just won 3rd place (on his weight class) on the national championships a few months back.

Michael Neal
12-31-2002, 07:31 PM
Michael, didn't you post recently saying you were starting judo and asking for recommendations?

If so, how is the judo going? Are you enjoying it? Any thoughts about differences, similarities to aikido?

=wl
I have not started yet, the first class is in mid January but I will let you know how it goes.

My comparison of Uki Goshi to Koshinage is based on studying judo instructional videos and watching how some judoka perform Koshinage in my Aikido class.

A judoka in our Aikido class performed Koshinage on one of our instructors and most of the class dropped their jaws. It was very powerful. My observation is that the judoka loads uke more onto the hip while most aikidoka tend to roll uke off the hip more quickly.

These are just my limited observations, I sure there are others here that have more experience that could answer this with some authority.

Bob
01-01-2003, 04:15 PM
Having done several years of judo and aikido (at different times) it seems to be that there is a great difference between the two koshi-nage. In judo one is trying to throw the partner so that he/she lands on his/her side because that is what scores an ippon (single point win). The person being thrown on the other hand, in tournaments at least, tries to land any way other than on their side so that they don't lose the match. In aikido however koshi-nage is meant to drive uke into the mat head-first and it is uke who must supply the rotation in order to be safe.

Michael Neal
01-27-2003, 11:01 AM
Michael, didn't you post recently saying you were starting judo and asking for recommendations?

If so, how is the judo going? Are you enjoying it? Any thoughts about differences, similarities to aikido?

=wl
I like Judo alot after a taking a few classes. Personally, I like to see the simularities to Aikido rather than looking for the differences, this way I think that training in both with be much easier.

Of course the ukemi is very similar and I think this is one of many areas where the crosstraining will greatly benefit my practice in both arts. Other simularities I am finding are in turning movements(tenkan), there are some differences but it is very similar.
Having done several years of judo and aikido (at different times) it seems to be that there is a great difference between the two koshi-nage. In judo one is trying to throw the partner so that he/she lands on his/her side because that is what scores an ippon (single point win). The person being thrown on the other hand, in tournaments at least, tries to land any way other than on their side so that they don't lose the match. In aikido however koshi-nage is meant to drive uke into the mat head-first and it is uke who must supply the rotation in order to be safe.
Again, I am not focusing on the differences rather trying to make it all fit together. I personally don't see holding on to the arm in O Goshi to not holding the arm in Koshinage as "great differences." The throw is essentially the same except for the ukemi. This is my perspective at least.

Alan Drysdale
01-27-2003, 02:27 PM
"In aikido however koshi-nage is meant to drive uke into the mat head-first and it is uke who must supply the rotation in order to be safe."

Gee. That is nothing like how I teach koshi nage.

With regard to seoi nage, long ago, I was taught two varieties. One held the collar and rotated the elbow across uke's body, while the other was performed holding uke's arm and lifting with nage's free arm under that same arm. You can see animations on the web e.g. at http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/3526/kodokanTechniques.html

Check out ippon seoi nage and morote seoi nage.

Alan

ocbolton
01-28-2003, 06:01 AM
I have to disagree about O-Goshi being the same as Koshinage- the way we do it anyway.

(most)Koshinage is executed as a wheel around the hips and back, usally with a lock on the arm or wrist.

(most)-goshi type throws are over the hips and usually without a lock .

having said that when you start playing with older style judo it all starts to merge together.

willy_lee
01-28-2003, 11:05 AM
I thought it was close to seoi-nage... or is there such a thing called koshi-guruma?
There is: a picture can be found here:

http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/koshguru.gif

In my very limited experience, aikido koshinage is more like koshi-guruma than any of the other judo throws. As Owen says, it's more like a wheel than a lift.

Emphasize very limited experience. We don't do koshinage very much.

=wl

Michael Neal
01-28-2003, 11:25 AM
Do you put your arm around uke's neck when you do koshinage or around the waist? It looks like in koshi-guruma his arm is around Uke's neck, that is different than how we do koshinage. Anyway, I guess there are many ways to do koshinage so we all could be right.

How many variations of Koshinage are there in Aikido?

willy_lee
01-28-2003, 12:20 PM
How many variations of Koshinage are there in Aikido?
I haven't seen many variations since again, we don't do it very much. 'Sfunny, all hip throws seem like variations on a theme to me. But I guess ikkyo through yonkyo would seem like variations on a theme to a Judo person. :)

=wl