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locknthrow
12-30-2002, 12:27 AM
This is another problem that I have had. How do you deal with a flurry of punches? You've seen how people can go wild and throw every kind of punch. It doesn't matter if it connects or not its just one after another say 10 or 20. None of them quite straight and none of them quite a hook. Any thoughts?

shihonage
12-30-2002, 12:41 AM
There's always this - http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/tomoenag.gif

locknthrow
12-30-2002, 12:49 AM
lol true

Thalib
12-30-2002, 01:02 AM
Hmmm...

Get out of the raging bull's way...

ole~...

The attacker is probably not even looking at you anyway...

Edward
12-30-2002, 04:49 AM
Deal with the first punch!

L. Camejo
12-30-2002, 07:47 AM
Keep maai.

Pick a punch and deal with it.

Look for the opening between punches (i.e. as one hand retracts and the other is about to extend) and irimi.

Use atemi waza (shomen ate, aigamae ate/irimi nage). Not the spinning ones, the direct ones.

My 2 cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Bruce Baker
12-30-2002, 07:49 AM
If you can't get your technique for upper body to work, the preferred method of takedown is to attack the knees.

Oops, not aikido.

Thinking in terms of always being vertical is quite limiting. You must observe where attacks are coming from and what areas are open to your attacks,or at least weak to defend. If you read any of Don Draeger early books about self defense, and description of martial arts, you will see how openings are attacked and defended. Even if the opponent has strong areas, be it a flurry of punches or whatever, there is still an area of weakness somewhere else.

Nice graphic Alex, but usually a hip throw is used, and you have to accept a few hits from punches, but then that is small in exchange for what you do to the puncher who becomes the winner of the slammy award.

opherdonchin
12-30-2002, 08:11 AM
If you can't get your technique for upper body to work, the preferred method of takedown is to attack the knees.

Oops, not aikido.Who says? We've had knee takedowns in all the styles I've ever practiced.

erikmenzel
12-30-2002, 08:28 AM
Oops, not aikido.
Why not? Aiki otoshi, yonkyo on anckle are also ok.

Bruce Baker
12-30-2002, 08:29 AM
Then stop whining Opher and offer some advice that will apply to subject rather than picking apart a suggestion to look somewhere else beyond the flurry of punches?

Maybe I have been examining books that are too old, practices of the 1940s - 1980s, out of step with these modern aikido classes?

If you have read self defense by many of the top practitioners, then a kick to the knees is in every style you have practiced, including Aikido?

Interesting ... I haven't seen that used in any Aikido class or seminar in the last five years I have been to? I will have to get about a bit more to see where I have missed that practice?

Meanwhile, how about answers to the question, eh?

Thalib
12-30-2002, 08:35 AM
I've seen kicks and punches used by Kubota Ikuhiro shihan (Aikikai), ask his students at Nara. But, that's another story.

MikeE
12-30-2002, 09:10 AM
Geez Bruce,

Didn't you get what you wanted for the holidays. Relax, take a deep breath.

BTW, we use kicks as a form of atemi when the need arises and train to do so.

Thalib
12-30-2002, 09:48 AM
Actually come to think of it...

Go ahead and use kicks, punches, grapple, suplexes, whatever. If that was a quick way to defend oneself and others by all means. But, when one starts to tire out and not making any difference, only then one would appreciate Aiki.

Actually it is quite the reverse, not that when Aiki does not work then one resort to "kicks and punches", but when "kicks and punches" do not work one resorts to Aiki.

I was told by a sensei that Aiki techniques are design to balance out (deal with) powerful, balanced, and Aiki or Ki attacks where one's conventional "punching, kicking, grappling, or locking" has no effects.

Come to think of it, Aiki is the last resort.

Brian H
12-30-2002, 10:24 AM
Pepper Spray (a.k.a. Atemi in a can)

Then Irimi Nage

JW
12-30-2002, 10:32 AM
This is another problem that I have had. How do you deal with a flurry of punches? You've seen how people can go wild and throw every kind of punch.
According to what O-sensei said you should start seeing little pebble-sized glowing things right before each punch, showing you where the punches will go..... don't you guys see those? I suppose you could walk right in and irimi him.....

This is the problem that I feel is exposed sometimes in situations like the flurry-of-punches scenerio. The problem is that obviously ultra-fast reflexes will make situations like this a piece of cake, but hopefully aikido does not demand nage to be bigger, stronger, faster etc than his attacker, right?
There must be some solution to this problem that does not depend on superior speed.

I think we should all practice with this attack, I think some time with it would be enlightening--I sure wonder how I would do.

But we've heard some good answers--
-should have dealt with attacker before he
closed the distance for punching
-go for the legs
-enter when it is safeEST if it doesn't get
SAFE (entry timed to withdrawl of punches)
--JW

creinig
12-30-2002, 10:51 AM
But we've heard some good answers--

-should have dealt with attacker before he

closed the distance for punching

-go for the legs

-enter when it is safeEST if it doesn't get

SAFE (entry timed to withdrawl of punches)
You forgot the standard "get off the line" (see the 3rd reply) :)

Trowing a flurry should be pretty hard if your target constantly moves to behind your back...

fullerfury
12-30-2002, 11:07 AM
Unbalancing the attacker is critical under any circumstances, and defending against a flurry of punches is no exception to this. I believe the answer lies in finding the best method to accomplish this.

I would suggest irimi...either directly into the attacker, where nage certainly would have to absorb some percentage of the blow...the intent of the irimi must be to capture uke's focus and balance thoereticaly ending the onslaught of attack and winning back the initiative, or irimi away/behind the attacker until the opportunity arises to stretch uke's balance out and behond his balance point. In either case nage will more than likely not remain unscathed.

opherdonchin
12-30-2002, 11:22 AM
If uke is really coming on too hard to notice things then a duck-under-come-behind move as is often practiced with yokomenuchi might be just the thing to put yourself in a safe and controlling position without actually passing through the storm.

SeiserL
12-30-2002, 11:25 AM
IMHO, most flury of punches or Wing Chun straight blasts, are directly to the front. Get off the line and keep your distance, Ma-ai. Tenkan to the side or rear and take their balance. Or, if staying in front, blend with the punches with soft rolling blocks and redirect them across their own body's centerline until you can pin the arms (Wing Chun Phong-Sau)and take their balance with Irimi-nage. Or, if quick enough, intercept and deflect one punch as you enter and take their balance Irimi-nage.

Until again,

Lynn

JPT
12-30-2002, 08:05 PM
I think we should all practice with this attack, I think some time with it would be enlightening--I sure wonder how I would do.

I agree, practise it using boxing gloves. The timing for the entry into the technique will be much harder because the attacks will be faster & flowing (rather than the single, karate style, attack of normal training) so don't be surprised if you get hit at first.

:triangle: :square: :circle:

Edward
12-31-2002, 12:45 AM
If you really launch a successfull defense against the first punch, then the others won't follow. If you can't do that yet (I can't) then you will be hit even by a single punch attack.

locknthrow
12-31-2002, 01:30 AM
Hey those are all great answers..I really like the duck and go behind. I've got a funny story of when I asked a "big bad shodan" the same question. He was one of those guys that thinks he has got it all mastered and Osensei probably could have picked up a few things from him. I didn't know this at the time though. This particular day he had this guy with him that was kinda of like his little groupie. Anyway he told me to use small circular motions with my hands starting from the inside and going out. Kind of like "wax on wax off". then he say's "here I'll show you!"

Groupie guy says, "oh no, your in for it now!" (talking about me)

Well I didn't mean for any sparring match to occur, little white belt me was just asking a question. But both of the guys there were getting pumped up.

"c'mon!" says shodan

Well I start giving him punch after punch about a quarter inch from his nose. Nothing fancy that anybody else in the world coudn't do. I was walking forward and he was backing up. Mr. Shodan's "circle blocks" never blocked a single punch! He was a little late or early on every "block". I'm not even going fast,like maybe 70 %, because I didn't want to get these guys too excited. I walked till he had backed all the way up to the far wall,so I stopped punching because I didn't want to cram him up against the wall. So I think the demo is over and drop my hands. As soon as I quit he comes and hip throws me.

"See?" says shodan.

"uhhhh yeah..that was great..thanks", says I.

"Wow! Coooooool!", says groupie with awe in his eyes for shodan.

I still wonder if Shodan knows he would have gotten hit 16 or 17 times in the nose....

These guys are in every dojo aren't they? lol

Thalib
12-31-2002, 02:07 AM
It is quite honorable of Iainttellin-san not to embarass him in his own dojo. But if I was his uke, I probably wouldn't have been so nice. Because my responsibility as an uke is to let nage realize if nage is doing serious mistakes.

But of course I wouldn't do this when it is an enbu (demonstration). But, I would do it if he was my training partner. Because I want to send him the "message (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=37036#post37036)" of training sincerely and honestly.

JW
01-01-2003, 10:07 PM
What a hilarious story! I know that KIND of person but never did I imagine that that attitude could be so extreme in real life! They must have been joking! Nice of them to put themselves at the butt of the joke for everyone..
But if I was his uke, I probably wouldn't have been so nice. Because my responsibility as an uke is to let nage realize if nage is doing serious mistakes.
Yes that's of course true.. but the sad thing is that 15 punches stopping right at the nose is more than enough to get the message across to a normal person! I mean I don't consider it irresposible to not hit a person in this situation because showing that you COULD have hit him should be enough in my opinion. I mean if he is honest well then you have made it JUST as clear as if you DID hit him.. except you saved him the bloody nose. It is too bad that we have people that could ever make it necessary to actually connect with the punches and cause injury, just for the sake of getting the message across.

I know *I* don't need to be hit, in order to be told I was too slow..
--JW

locknthrow
01-02-2003, 01:26 AM
Well it was just me, shodan and groupie there. Shodan acted like he deflected everyone. Groupie acted like he just saw the throw. but hey I knew and anyway I WANTED to learn something. I didn't think of it as a "victory" I was just disappointed that where I was training a shodan couldn't stop that little attack. Didn't give me alot to look forward to. But later on, if you read my post in the introductions, I think I found out why the students at this dojo didn't have the answer. ;)

Thalib
01-02-2003, 02:28 AM
I wouldn't go as far as give him a bloody nose...

With the partners I trained with, I usually just lightly tap them on the head, or flick/touch them on the nose or forehead, for attacks around the head are of course.

Jeff Tibbetts
01-02-2003, 05:01 AM
Sometimes I tend to think of this attack as not worthy of attention. I mean, if it's not a commited attack and wouldn't do much anyway, why worry so much about blocking, or doing techniques? Stay off the line, even let a punch or two hit, then they'll calm down and try to land a bigger one! This comes up at work sometimes, we all screw around and try to throw punches or little slaps, and I usually just let it slide because who cares. I don't need to impress them with my crazy Aikido skillz (kidding, obviously) and it won't hurt so why bother treating it like a real attack?

Thalib
01-02-2003, 07:55 AM
Exactly...

That's why I said:
Hmmm...

Get out of the raging bull's way...

ole~...

The attacker is probably not even looking at you anyway...
I may didn't say it seriously, but it basically is referring to irimi, tenkan, and/or kaiten. Whatever you could do to let him through without "bumping" into you.

locknthrow
01-02-2003, 12:29 PM
To Jeff

Oh my goodness!! The terrible work dojo! You always get the guy tryin' to throw a quick

little movement about 12 inches from your face saying, "hey man that martial arts stuff can't block that I could have hit you"

lol

L. Camejo
01-02-2003, 12:56 PM
You always get the guy tryin' to throw a quick

little movement about 12 inches from your face saying, "hey man that martial arts stuff can't block that I could have hit you"

lol
Aww, you couldn't have put it better man... I could give you a story on that one, happened to me with a body builder no less:).

People sometimes just don't realise how dangerous these things can be for them if the martial artist one day decided he was gonna put restraint on hold for a while.

If they only knew...:)

L.C.:ai::ki:

locknthrow
01-03-2003, 02:02 AM
Yeah the main one where I work is a big weight training type

Lyle Bogin
01-03-2003, 12:16 PM
Well instead of wondering, have someone you train with who can hit put on some gloves and beat the crap out of you. After learning how to not freak out when you get hit, you will start to figure out how to handle it.

But you have to learn how to take a punch so that you can be less afraid.

Thalib
01-03-2003, 12:27 PM
I haven't taken a punch in the face yet... I guess I've learned my lesson after I got kicked on the head...

Lyle Bogin
01-03-2003, 12:31 PM
What lesson was that?

L. Camejo
01-03-2003, 12:53 PM
To get out of the way instead of admiring the kicker's form :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

Thalib
01-03-2003, 10:41 PM
Exactly... :p

I don't want to be a target or a punching bag anymore...

L. Camejo
01-04-2003, 07:23 AM
I agree totally Thalib.

This fact was brought home to me at an ITF Tae Kwon Do Tournament that I judged at last year.

Scary :)

Lyle Bogin
01-05-2003, 10:40 AM
"To get out of the way instead of admiring the kicker's form "

Haha, yes and excellent point. However, sometimes we get out of the way of one attack only to walk right into another. Sometimes an attack is intended for you to dodge it, as a trap.

I a close friend of mine is an ITF 2nd Dan. Those guys are scary fast, and a back kick from one of them can make you vomit or pass out. That is a classic example of the trap....roundhouse kick, I dodge it and WHAM, back kick.

Bruce Baker
01-05-2003, 11:00 AM
I can't be serious with all this "What If..."

So I revert back to the humor and irony of ...

ROPE A DOPE!

or the ever faithful

YUK-YUK-YUK and a volley of Three Stooges Tactics that send my opponent reeling!

Finally we revert to the Killer Bunny Syndrome of MONTY PYTHON.... We RUN FOR OUR LIVES!

RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

You guys are not listening to sensible training of making the fastest kick or punches seem like they are in slow motion, so maybe "run away" is the training that appeals to you.

Putting comedy aside, you need to increase your reflex actions slowly so that you can see the fastest of movements. Some of Aikido will help you, and for other techniques you will have to go outside your Aikido training.

Awareness of people who can take the best movements found in aikido and turn them against you is not just training, it is a technique in awareness and not becoming complacent with your effectiveness in practice.

Many styles can kick from the ground, or kick from many of our Techniques if they are not effectively used, and your timing leaves large openings for your opponnent.

Study the openings you leave, and options you need to protect yourself from punches, kicks, or countermoves.

Do that .... and then you will stop "What if" in the rhetorical fashion it is applied here.

Isn't that what practice is all about?

Finding the "What if's" and searching for a practical solution?

L. Camejo
01-05-2003, 12:15 PM
However, sometimes we get out of the way of one attack only to walk right into another. Sometimes an attack is intended for you to dodge it, as a trap.
Exactly true, in fact I think this a tactic many experienced kickers (strikers in general actually) use against ppl who like to close distance and grab you :) That's why its important as Aikidoka to dictate the terms of maai and engagement as much as possible. Make em play your game, don't fall into theirs.
I a close friend of mine is an ITF 2nd Dan. Those guys are scary fast, and a back kick from one of them can make you vomit or pass out. That is a classic example of the trap....roundhouse kick, I dodge it and WHAM, back kick.
One of my students is an ITF 4th Dan, we x-train a lot together. That particular setup is one of my personal favourites.
You guys are not listening to sensible training of making the fastest kick or punches seem like they are in slow motion, so maybe "run away" is the training that appeals to you.

... you need to increase your reflex actions slowly so that you can see the fastest of movements. Some of Aikido will help you, and for other techniques you will have to go outside your Aikido training.
Mr. Baker, regarding your post above I have no idea what you are talking about. In saying the above, I believe you ASSUME much about the training systems of others. I can assure you that reflex training against a variety of full speed and very precise attacks form part of the core of our practice. In our dojo if your reflexes are slow you get a very rude awakening. You simply cannot do competitive Aikido if you have poor ma ai and reflex conditioning, much less instruct it.

"Running away" (retreating) and "tasting the blade" (precise timed entering) are both elements of tactic in unarmed combat. The wise person can utilise both at will.

When faced with ridiculous numbers of enemies, traditional samurai used running away to separate the quicker of their enemies from those who could not run as fast, they would then turn around, take those few out and run again to thin the amount of enemies they had to fight at once.

One must be able to pull from the best resources to fit the situation, regardless of where they lay. That is why x training is important, but it is also important to understand the fullness of aikido as well.

I cannot understand how you advocate x training to broaden one's horizons and then make a statement like the one above. So often in aikido we lead our attacker to overextend by alluding to retreating movememnt or using kamae, before doing the opposite (entering off line)... this movement pulls the attack in so you can enter more effectively and setup your technique.

Going back to the point of flurries - as said before you can use the first punch, fade back a bit and pick one of the punches in the flurry, enter when the hands are retreating and a few other options. All have to do with precise timing, setting up your opponent and ma ai. All of which are covered in the principles of most aikido. They only question is how dynamic and how effectively we train to hone these skills. Before anything, one must maintain a calm centre, if we allow ourselves to be taken in by the speed and deception of the flurry we have already lost our psychological centre, in which case, anything we do after will be useless and ineffective.

In sparring and real situations we may indeed have to take a punch, deal with it, move in, do your technique and resolve the conflict.

I do aplogise for the long post.

Sumimasen.

L.C.:ai::ki

MattRice
01-07-2003, 12:04 PM
How about the concept of seeing many as one? Same as viewing multiple attackers as one. The flurry can be viewed as one attack. Dunno if that's a valid concept or not, just pondering...thoughts?

shihonage
01-07-2003, 01:52 PM
This "pondering" can only be solved by experiencing some "pounding".

I'm a comedy genius !

jimvance
01-07-2003, 01:58 PM
My, my. Lots of interesting stuff. I guess I will just wade in....

Running away is a good tactic. The Spartan army at Thermopylae used it repeatedly to stall the overwhelmingly large Persian army for three days. They would run away while the Persian onslaught charged, then reinforcing groups would impale the chargers on their disciplined phalanx(es). I think running away for a step or two from a hard charging opponent is a good way to let the wind out of their sails, as long as you have an effective counter-tactic. Otherwise, as others have stated above, you may find yourself out of the frying pan and into the fire.

My big question is "What happens when you don't have the benefit of intellectual insight?" In other words, when the fit hits the shan, you are normally in the middle of it, on your back, stunned, or worse. Everyone I have heard above takes the approach that their opponent is going to challenge them Mortal Kombat style, and it will be a battle of disciplines, your strengths against their weaknesses. That is randori or shiai, not reality. If you really want to make good in reality, keep good posture, stay alert, and identify possible problems ahead of time. And keep in mind what my teacher says: "Don't worry, nothing's going to be all right."

Jim Vance

opherdonchin
01-07-2003, 02:20 PM
In Israel they say: "'Cheer up,' they told him, 'it could be worse.' So, he cheered up, and they were right: it was worse."

Lyle Bogin
01-07-2003, 03:36 PM
As they say, don't run from danger, run to safety.