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locknthrow
12-20-2002, 01:48 AM
Hey!
I was just wondering about an attack. How would you defend against an attack where a guy (or girl???) grabs you shirt with both hands real close. You know like face to face. Maybe they are trying to pick you straight up. Just curious. all the techs I've ever seen from Aikido or any other art the attacker was farther away with arms more outstretched.

PeterR
12-20-2002, 01:53 AM
Knee straight up, move into oshitaoshi (iikyo).

Bronson
12-20-2002, 02:13 AM
As they pull you in step behind their leg and irimi nage.

As they pull place same side hand to hand (left to right) like for kotegaeshi. Reach across with the other hand to the elbow. Pull the elbow through and drop the hand in kotegaeshi, the forearm will be mostly horizontal.

Bronson

Darrell Aquino
12-20-2002, 02:20 AM
So close. Are your hands free? Cupping your hands and striking your opponents ears works. When he lets you go after that is all up to you.

Darrell

locknthrow
12-20-2002, 02:32 AM
hmmmm...interesting...I thought of the cupped hands one...just ask John Stossel(sp) you remember the guy on 20/20 that got slapped by the wrestler?

locknthrow
12-20-2002, 02:35 AM
Bronson..so the tech you are trying to explain would be a kotegaeshi with one hand and lifting his elbow up with the other hand???? Have I got it right?

Alan Mung
12-20-2002, 03:45 AM
Maybe a rear sacrifice throw over your head or a yama arashi. They should do the trick.

Ta Kung
12-20-2002, 04:14 AM
A headbutt and then whatever technique you'd like... :)

Jim ashby
12-20-2002, 05:08 AM
I agree with Patrik. a Glasgow handshake followed by a direct nikkyo clears the mind wonderfully.

Have fun

Nathan Pereira
12-20-2002, 05:28 AM
As the fool has both hands occupied agree with Glasgow kiss. Could make especially vicious by grabbing the back of his/her head and pulling it forward onto the butt. Doubt you'd need anything else after that. Even better combine it with Peter's knee to the goolies. Less brutal could be one hand on the chin one on back of head and twist as you drop. If it works its Aikido.

Bruce Baker
12-20-2002, 06:19 AM
I guess as long as you are somewhat of equal size, close in, the head butt to the nose is the prefered distraction, but there are other considerations also.

Are your feet touching the ground, or are you held by lapels or being choked?

Is your opponent much larger, because if he or she is a refuge from muscle beach, you might not have time to be gentle, or use the knee to the groin because they are so close the knee to your groin is in their favor not yours?

Suppose everything is against you in this situation, what practice in Aikido do we do would apply here?

Think ....

Shake, Rattle, and Roll.

Ok .... some of you get it and most of you don't.

Distraction.

Think small child against a parent. A child has absolutely no size of weight advantage against his/ her parent, but then they still are able to drop to the ground with gyrations, and a variety of back and forth movements, aren't they?

This type of slippery escape allows for opportunity, advantage, and a chance to turn the situation around for the smaller person.

Most of you already do tenkan practice with your feet moving your body, but how about doing it with your body alone? Kind of like a bear scratching his back, you can initiate movement, like a child, like a bear, and take the opportunity away from equal sized opponents or loosen the grasp of larger opponents. With opportunity comes the chance to initiate movement, so use some of your practice and come up with ten variations on this scenario.

There are a lot of really nasty things you can do to escape, but then that would be the book of dirty tricks, not Aikido.

How about some more Aiki ways to escape?

Simulate some escapes with a partner, or bring it up with your teacher, and see how many variations come about. I think it will take two or three steps to get the opportunity to use ikkyo or nikkyo, so don't be surprised if you find practice more complicated than your forum answer.

Fiona D
12-20-2002, 07:51 AM
Depending on how closely you're being held, and whether your feet are still on the ground or not, a nice variation to the headbutt/nikkyo might be to reach over the top of your attacker's arms to take the wrist for nikkyo, thus elbowing him sharply in the face or neck before you latch onto his hand.

MikeE
12-20-2002, 09:31 AM
As with most of the posts above...I think an atemi of some sort would be in order to produe advantageous ma-ai.

Either that or; apologize for whatever he thinks you did and offer to buy him a drink.

;)

erikmenzel
12-20-2002, 09:47 AM
I personaly have good experience (when others are around) with simply saying loudly: "Not now honey, I have a headache".

Steven
12-20-2002, 10:48 AM
The possibilities are endless once you have a good understanding of basic body movement and such. My personal favorite if pulled in close. Lick/Kiss em on the nose. That'll distract them for sure. Then follow the advise given by all others.

:D
Hey!

I was just wondering about an attack. How would you defend against an attack where a guy (or girl???) grabs you shirt with both hands real close. You know like face to face. Maybe they are trying to pick you straight up. Just curious. all the techs I've ever seen from Aikido or any other art the attacker was farther away with arms more outstretched.

Thalib
12-20-2002, 11:18 AM
My sensei discusses quite a bit on these type of attacks, one handed or two handed collar grabs. And not just static, but the uke must pull the nage in - if possible lift the uke.

Technically, one moves one's own center that it would cut the uke's, such as a zengo undo movement but instead it goes facing front to facing side (since front to back is kind of hard in this position). And this where all the kokyu/ikkyo and zengo undo training pays off.

Rotate zengo-undo-like to facing one side. Kokyu is the essential part of zengo-undo. Not turn and then kokyu, but turn and kokyu are one movement. The kokyu will lift the uke's elbow to the uke's sides but to your front and center. This will be an awkward position for the uke. Either the uke will let go, or be in a bridge position where you can do anything you want basically.

It is harder to do it when the uke already got the nage in a close position. It is better done when the uke is pulling the nage in. Do techniques dynamically. Make the connection by the first touch.

It's kind of hard to put these type of things into writing. But as you see, it is a basic aikido movement, nothing special. Again this is technical, there are many aspects and principles behind this.

Learn the principles behind the techniques, not just the form, then one would only begin to understand aikido.

locknthrow
12-20-2002, 11:31 AM
Those are great..How bout when he's pulling you in, stick your arms in between his and wrap aroung both of them. Kind of like boxers clinching. Then give a good twist and try to make him go over your hip or an outstretched leg. How does that sound? All muscle or Aiki?

shihonage
12-20-2002, 02:13 PM
Assume a "protective natural stance" (to shamelessly borrow from Richard Dimitri's Senshido tapes) - position your hands above his while going "hey hey man what do you want ?", while stepping backwards in circles, so that if he lets go with one hand and tries to sucker punch you in the head below your field of vision, you can feel his hand move, and block it/react.

Also due to constant movement he'll have trouble kicking you.

Erik
12-20-2002, 04:21 PM
Knee straight up, move into oshitaoshi (iikyo).
Last night I was doing some soft flowing stuff. You know that tofu California stuff. Anyways, one of the guys kept locking up and shifting to keep his balance. Of course, he could only do it because it was soft and slow.

His partner asked me what to do and I gave him ye olde "knee up". I must say that he got the message.

Thalib
12-20-2002, 06:09 PM
Those are great..How bout when he's pulling you in, stick your arms in between his and wrap aroung both of them. Kind of like boxers clinching. Then give a good twist and try to make him go over your hip or an outstretched leg. How does that sound? All muscle or Aiki?
We've done the technique in that way before. Muscle or aiki, that depends on the person that is executing the technique. The technique could be done in a Ju way or in an Aiki way.

Every technique has their levels. But once you can feel Aiki, no matter what technique it is, even punching or kicking techniques, it could be done in Aiki. But if one can't feel Aiki, even a basic Aikido technique could become a wrestling or Jujutsu technique.

Bronson
12-25-2002, 10:24 PM
Bronson..so the tech you are trying to explain would be a kotegaeshi with one hand and lifting his elbow up with the other hand???? Have I got it right?

Yeah, pretty much...oh and you're doing it to the same hand/arm. I guess it's not really lifting the elbow "up" but more pulling the elbow through. It usually turns uke to the side...as long as you keep the whole thing low. Don't bring the elbow up to the level of the hand but bring the hand down to the level of the elbow :confused:

Bronson

adriangan
12-26-2002, 02:53 AM
use two fingers and push the base of the throat, i learned that from jujitsu :D

mike lee
12-26-2002, 05:20 AM
This is one of the most dangerous attacks there is, for the attacker!

This is truely one of those situations where one could say, "And now you've got me exactly where I want you."

But for an experienced aikidoist, to be grabbed and then lifted off of the ground, I'd say that he already made two mistakes too many and he probably deserves to get punished for it.

Brian H
12-26-2002, 08:53 AM
OK, my first instinct would be real harsh atemi, but there are nicer ways to deal with this.

One easy and effective technique is to pick a side to attack and reach under and grab the opposite side elbow and pull in. At the same time your opposite hand crosses the body and pushs/rolls uke's head outward (nice- or strikes neck- not so nice) Even the smallest of irimis does wonders to help uke crash to the mat.

Bud
12-26-2002, 09:59 AM
Elbow strikes. If you're really up close and he's got two hands on you, the attacker is within elbow striking range and his own hands are occupied. You can also grab his clothes and drive him toward you elbow. Watch out for his knees though. He could drive a groin strike upward and you'd be in serious trouble.

Just make sure you strike more than once and do it quickly without telegraphing the move. Only after you've got his attention do you shift gears and do an aikido technique.

Just my 2 cents..

locknthrow
12-27-2002, 01:44 AM
To Brian H

Are you grabbing HIS elbow or YOURS? Explain how you would do irimi from there...I htink I've got the wrong picture in my head

thanx

Mike