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jujitsu_guy
12-07-2002, 12:50 AM
Hi, I am not a practitioner of Aikido per se, but of Jujitsu (which of course has some of the same techniques and concepts as Aikido).
I have a question. I am a fan of Steven Seagal. I see him do a clothesline kind of technique on people in his movies. It looks VERY effective and would like to learn how to do it.
I haven't been able to find info on the move on the net, but in my search I found this site, so I thought I'd ask you! Is there a resource to learn it from? Or can someone discribe info on performing it?
I am interested in how to use it while defending a right handed punch (suckerpunch or jab).
Thank you for your time.

Talon
12-07-2002, 01:17 AM
I beleive you are looking for the proper way to exwecute irminage....Well read into the thread that discusses this technique. Steven Segal uses the typical irminage quite often and he also uses a shorter version of it. I hope the mname will help you find more info on it...

Paul

Talon
12-07-2002, 01:19 AM
MAN, I appologize for my poor typing or proofing skills...

Williamross77
12-07-2002, 01:24 AM
Clay the technique you refer to , if i understand you is concidered in most systems an irimi-nage or irimi-kokyunage, Iwama ryu styles might call it something slightly different refering to the triangular stepping of the Irimi.

On occation he changes to a simular technique called tenchi-nage. they are both performed very diffrently than the way they look in the films. it would be advizable to find a group that practices aiki arts with some lineage to takeda sokaku, only if i remember they don't have the techinage variety. Worst thing to do is to try it without learning the principles in volved and it not work and you be discouraged. but i reitterate, it is not like a clothes line at all, done correctly it should barely touch the neck and i applied more downwardly towards the hara. hope this helps.

bob_stra
12-07-2002, 03:10 AM
[QUOTE="Clay Rinnon (jujitsu_guy)"

I haven't been able to find info on the move on the net[/QUOTE]

http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~murray/aikido/mpegs.html

especially...

http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~murray/aikido/gutar1-n.mpg

(my fav aikido mpeg ;-)

http://www.andylim.com/aikido/a-index.html

Mr.Skin
12-07-2002, 08:34 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/videos/detail.html?video_id=31

IwamaRyuCole
12-07-2002, 02:03 PM
Clay, Irimi-nage is an awesome technique when performed right. An important thing to remember is that it is literaly an entering throw. I know that when i first learned irimi-nage it was kinda scary having a punch thrown an inch from your body, but it is a very effective technique (i have friends in karate who were all impressed by how easy i avoided their strike and entered in).

jujitsu_guy
12-08-2002, 12:32 AM
Thanks for all the info ya' all!!!:D There's alot there to study! I knew I came to the right place!

Like I say, I do study a style of jujitsu (Danzan Ryu, which uses alot of aiki principles, and the previous 2 years I studied Brazilian Jiu jitsu) but so far I haven't been taught that technique anywhere. The Danzan Ryu is heavily structured in what you learn and when, so I thought I'd sneak over here to find out about it;)

Well off to check out some of those links!

Bruce Baker
12-08-2002, 09:45 AM
Collar bone strike.

Learn what it is and how to use it, and you will come to the heart of a proper 'clothesline strike.'

PeterR
12-08-2002, 07:18 PM
Sorry Bruce - no. Aigamae-ate/Iriminage techniques manipulate the body. If anything they attack the spine.
Collar bone strike.

Learn what it is and how to use it, and you will come to the heart of a proper 'clothesline strike.'

Paul Smith
12-08-2002, 09:15 PM
I'm not a big fan of "clotheslining." It may look pretty, but in reality I do not think it all that effective. Think of it. Uke is attacking linearly at nage. Nage responds by a straight line response, 180 degrees (or nearly so), against the direction of attack of uke. In other words, stopping a moving train.

For a "direct" iriminage (as opposed to one preceeded by tenkan), why not "fold uke in half," a notion putatively ascribed to O'Sensei - in other words, fold uke's head so that it is in front of one's chest, and then step through for iriminage? This is not clotheslining, this is drawing uke off line to a "third (missing) leg," a weaker position, prior to drilling the throw?

Paul

Bruce Baker
12-08-2002, 10:09 PM
Well Mr. Rehse, I guess you have never been properly intoduced to a proper collar bone strike?

Strike to the neck? Well, that too is possible, but it takes three times the force of a strike to the collar bone which immediately drops the reciever.

I wouldn't have believed it, but I have trained in other arts, physically recieved this strike, and understand its force verses the old fashion neck clothesline, which takes a heck of a lot more force to cause the same effect.

I definitely have to disagree with your reply.

Recieved it. Given it. It absolutely works.

PeterR
12-08-2002, 10:31 PM
I didn't say strike to the neck, I said manipulate the body. The effectiveness of the aigamae-ate/iriminage techniques of which the typical clothsline is but a variation is in the torque.

Assuming uke isn't running blindly into your outstretched arm.
Well Mr. Rehse, I guess you have never been properly intoduced to a proper collar bone strike?

Strike to the neck? Well, that too is possible, but it takes three times the force of a strike to the collar bone which immediately drops the reciever.

I wouldn't have believed it, but I have trained in other arts, physically recieved this strike, and understand its force verses the old fashion neck clothesline, which takes a heck of a lot more force to cause the same effect.

I definitely have to disagree with your reply.

Recieved it. Given it. It absolutely works.

Williamross77
12-08-2002, 10:35 PM
The way i was taught the irimi nage was more to aim past the upper body and direct enery (force+KI) towards to sacrum(base of the spine) after diflecting and absorbing some forward momentum, as most schools do to perform sayunage, this at more of a 45 degree angle in stead of frontally at 180. Most of the time when exicuted right the uke's hara does the actual nage for me as long as i redirect the upper body. of course i mess it up alot too.

MaylandL
12-11-2002, 09:21 PM
Reading this thread has raised some confusion in my own mind about iriminage and whether it be practiced as more direct entering movement or a entering movement followed by tenkan.

I've always been taught that its not the act of "clothes lining" somebody that makes the technique work but rather entering in, becoming one centre with Uke, controlling uke's centre and energy of the attack.

At the dojos that I train at we keep close to Uke once we have entered and the projection of energy is not across the neck but past the jaw line and down towards the base of the spine if a more direct entry is used without a tenkan movement.

I know there are stylistic differences between dojos here but I've visited other dojos practicing Kokikai, Yoseikan, Yoshinkan and Tomiki and they all have the same principles and emphasise that irimi nage is not about striking but controlling the centre and blending with the energy.

I find that striking at neck just doesnt take Uke's balance especially when Uke is larger than I (which is in most situations since I am knee high to a grasshopper and weigh about as much).

I stand corrected if I have been under a misapprehension about how irimi nage is practiced. Comments welcomed and encouraged.

Happy training :)

shadow
12-11-2002, 11:05 PM
irimi nage in the pre war times in japan apparently used to be a secret technique. it was taught with an amount of discretion and people who saw the technique without being taught were hunted down and killed......

so i have heard.

the basic irimi or entering is incredibly effective i believe and weather a strike or a throw follows, it works.

Williamross77
12-12-2002, 02:14 PM
the tenkan movement added to the irimi makes it moe of a specifice kokyunage instead of a general iriminage, sorta like all squares are rectancles but not vice versa. just a thought...

Bruce Baker
12-12-2002, 08:14 PM
There is a simpler means to prove the manipulation of body over strikes, or clothesline, or even irimi ...

Corkscrew motion of pushing the shoulder back and down as you would in jujitsu.

I know we used to do a takedown simular to irimi by facing the opponent, placeing the inside leg behind your opponents ankle so that you controled their balance at the bottom of the calf muscle, hip to hip, and ever so gently pushed on the opposite shoulder to take away balance.

Of course if you were not firmly rooted you could be the reciever instead of the giver of technique, but the basic corkscrew movement down to the floor took all resistence out of the opponent as they were more interested in not taking an uncontroled breakfall to the ground.

In many ways it is the essence of the clothesline, and brother to irimi, but then in stepping through to accomplish irimi we have increase the technique, haven't we?

I aske my teacher from karate where he got all these techniques, and he showed me a jujitsu book written in the early 1950s with hand drawn pictures that correctly showed the position and execution of techniques. I have since seen many variations upon this book, and I wish I could remember its name. I do know it is out of print, and when I tried to find one the book dealer wanted sixty dollars for one.

Point being, you never know where you can find techniques, and sometimes finding them in many different places done different ways just validates the movements within a structure for using various techniques.

Moving the trajectory a bit this way or that is just the validation that there is not only more than one way to skin a cat, but many more ways to use simular motions that are sometimes called different techniques because of slight variations.

I hate to keep using the same stale phrase, but "Get over it."

Much of what we practice with our bokken and jo are merely the immitation of movements we need for empty hand techniques. I don't see the big deal in picking apart a thousand minor variations, when it is the general movements that determine what variations are available within given areas of attack or offense with your practice?

Just like making categorys, or file systems, you need to generally categorize what you are doing then seek out the details.... not the other way round.

No wonder there is so much confusion.

As for shihonage, kokyunage, or even iriminage, they too draw upon general movements that turn into specifics as available motion is encouraged ... or don't you all work upon general themes and include the variations into that theme?

We need another forum, The MOOT COURT.

This is where we discuss for hours upon end details and specific subjects that in the course of things could have been settled in minutes, but we takes hours, days, or weeks to find the same answer only to find it means nothing at all.

I kinda prefer the school of hard knocks advice with a practical discussion myself.

L. Camejo
12-12-2002, 08:37 PM
Personally, I use the push on the shoulder/edge of the collar bone version of aigamae ate/irimi nage to instill the basics of posture breaking etc. for beginners. As soon as the requisite control is gained I let them start using the head/chin/jawline to manipulate uke's balance, making it more effective.

The idea of a clothesline like strike to iriminage (without prerequisite balance breaking)is a risky one in my book. Makes it too easy to counter with things like tenkai kotehineri or gyakugamae ate. The strike option actually sets up tori's hand for a perfect tenkai kotehineri (sankyo ura) as long as uke stays centred and ducks early.

Aigamae ate/irimi nage is a very exact technique. A multitude of variations can develop by simply switching between the forearm against the jawline and the sho tei against the chin. Both positions have slightly different effects, but they work on the same principle, i.e. effecting a throw based on destruction of balance by manipulating the vertical extension of the spine. Where the head goes, the body will follow, not the same thing for the collarbone I think.

Of course if you want to smash uke's collarbone you're main focus is probably not to throw the person anyway. Not saying that this is not an effective technique, jut that I would tend not to call it aigamae ate/iriminage.

Just my 9.99

L.C.:ai::ki:

MaylandL
12-13-2002, 03:34 AM
...The idea of a clothesline like strike to iriminage (without prerequisite balance breaking)is a risky one in my book. Makes it too easy to counter ...

Aigamae ate/irimi nage is a very exact technique. A multitude of variations can develop by simply switching between the forearm against the jawline and the sho tei against the chin. Both positions have slightly different effects, but they work on the same principle, i.e. effecting a throw based on destruction of balance by manipulating the vertical extension of the spine. Where the head goes, the body will follow, not the same thing for the collarbone I think.

Of course if you want to smash uke's collarbone you're main focus is probably not to throw the person anyway. Not saying that this is not an effective technique, jut that I would tend not to call it aigamae ate/iriminage.

...
Thank you Larry, nicely put and I wholeheartedly agree.

Sam
12-13-2002, 04:47 AM
A student once asked his teacher "sensei, what is irimi-nage?".

The teacher gave him a funny look and said "All aikido technique"

PeterR
12-13-2002, 07:45 AM
I aske my teacher from karate where he got all these techniques, and he showed me a jujitsu book written in the early 1950s with hand drawn pictures that correctly showed the position and execution of techniques.
I ask my teacher from Aikido where he got all these techniques and he just well .... showed me.

Larry as far as I know is only one removed and Sam knows exactly what I'm talking about. The connection (excuse the pun) is devastatingly direct. We don't need no book to show us the correct way - we've felt it.

I'm sorry Bruce but time and time again you seem to come up with an idea and proceed to tells us the truth. And time and time again, it is glaringly obvious to me, that your experience in Aikido is limited. The secret isn't coller bone strikes, pressure points, or a few minutes of conversation of John Stevens, it's tossing away preconceptions and using what's left to work for you. If the above few things work for you fine but give us a break.

L. Camejo
12-13-2002, 07:51 AM
I ask my teacher from Aikido where he got all these techniques and he just well .... showed me.

We don't need no book to show us the correct way - we've felt it.

The secret... it's tossing away preconceptions and using what's left to work for you.
Amen Brother :)

I agree totally.

L.C.:ai::ki:

JMCavazos
12-13-2002, 08:34 AM
It is answers like Peter's that make this forum alive and well worth reading.

If you don't like what you see in a thread, just stop reading!!!! Don't put us through having to read a pointless, thoughtless message.

Peter, you are right on target!

Bruce Baker
12-14-2002, 04:37 PM
Well Peter Rehse, I hate to be the old grumbling newcomer talking like Popeye the sailor man, but maybe it's time to show and not tell ... anymore.

Words are so terribly inadequete to the meaning of being shown.

By the way, I do not advocate some of the more violent thoughts that are expressed in responses to my posts, they are the illusions of your own mind,refering to those who think these dark thoughts, brought about by the fears in your own mind.

I bring these subjects to light as they have been brought to light for me by numerous teachers over the many years of my life, either in the school of hard knocks, or in eduaction forum.

How can I put this ...

I would rather teach or be taught within the parameters of knowledge by having the least amount of force applied, at the slowest speed, with a proper explanation, than do practice or be taught in a way that will incur the injurys or hapless practice some of you allude to.

No one believed what O'Sensei could dowhat he dcould do until he either bested them, or showed them what he could do it.

Charlatan, or ignorant newcomer ... I am not interested in any of your little clubs, or taking away students, or even in ever teaching martial arts, but my curiosity gets the better of me, and I speak what I think, right or wrong in an attempt to shorten the journey of some of you, while dispelling some of the improper illusions you have written in forums.

Maybe, Mr. Rehse, the words are over, and it is time for a happy class of show and tell, in where I will either be proved wrong, or be proved right. Like most people who have done Aikido for many years, you have truly become deluded in your practice and teaching that aikido stands alone in its capacity to be practiced, and other martial arts have not affected its evolution. Maybe I am wrong in this assumption, but if someone from another martial art came into your class as a new student and told you there was a better way to do a technique, would you listen, or ignore them?


All I say is from others. From teachers, from shihans, from books other have written after thirty or more years of practice, from many of the same books of masters who hint at techniques and ways to use them ... so don't go telling me I am inventing this stuff, I am merely quoting the words of many others.

The fact that much of what I say does not fit into venacular of todays Aikido teachers, well ... that is a result of the school or hard knocks.

And if your teacher "just showed you" where he got his techniques without knowing the variety of arts that changed and molded them into what they are today, you deserve to be horsewhipped for being wrapped in that blanket of "don't know and don't care."

As a scholar, if you took everything one person said on faith, without checking, and rechecking the facts against a variety of sources, you should be lambasted. I do not expect to be believed in anything I say until you have either experienced what I say, or have sufficiently lived long enough to be like I am. Good, bad, or indifferent , that is the way it is.

I do this with the deepest respect for your knowledge and experience, but please ... this petty opinionizing is quite below your level of expertise.

There is only so much to be learned with a strickly aikido study ... then you must go elsewhere to validate your information, as well to find a manner in which to make it your own.

It will never be your own if you spend your entire life refering to what your teacher showed you, although that is but a starting point, when you should be validating that information in multiple sources and studys.

My apologys for being middle aged, gruff, and cranky, but not being a wide eyed kid who is in his first year of aikido, I tend to draw not only upon all my life experiences, but validating this information in practice also.

Or should I throw people across the room, and break bones with no strength to prove my points? I hope not. It hurts me deeply to have to be that kind of person, and I hope none of you become that kind of person.

Enough of this.

Maybe we should have a contextual email arguement until we meet to iron out the differences we see in Aikido and the use of other martial arts in Aikido training.

Good or bad, if it doesn't interfere with your schedule activitys, please do email me and we should clear up many of either my misconceptions or yours.

Apologys if this offends you or the many who read this, but if my physical condition continues to deteriorate, soon even aikido will not be a viable practice. So, I need to either get this in the open of let the misconceptions of martial arts continue to be twisted as aikido starts to fall behind in its effectiveness to other martial arts.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I do see the more deadly and agressive use of aikido, even with our gentle practice.

Bruce Baker
12-14-2002, 04:50 PM
Sorry for the typing errors in the last post, but fifteen minutes isn't long enough sometimes to do a quick post edit.

norman telford
12-16-2002, 12:59 PM
The technique that you are talking about is direct irmminage. And a very good example of this being performed can be seen on the Steven Segal website in the picture gallery. I think this could well put the problem to rest.

Bruce Baker
12-27-2002, 12:37 PM
Direct Iriminage?

It couldn't be indirect Iriminage?

Of maybe indirect O Sotogeri could it?

Or even forearm slam?

And so on ... and so on ... and so on.

Thalib
12-27-2002, 05:00 PM
For those WWF, WCW, now WWE fans...

Maybe it's The Rock's "Rock Bottom" or Booker T's "Book End"...

It's basically a sutemi waza iriminage :p