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Bruce Baker
12-06-2002, 09:07 AM
I have brought up a number of similarities of training in other styles of martial arts, and finding uses in many techniques of Aikido, or in understanding the basis for Aikido techniques.

Judo, Jujitsu, Karate, Chin'na, Wing Chung, Tai Chi, Brazilian Ju Jitsu (BJJ), Gymnastics, Baseball, American Football, Soccer (World Football), and who knows how many different life experiences of work, hobbies, and various mistakes of my life ... they all add to the texture of learning, they all have clues to using motion, energy, and getting the best results with certain lessons of form.

So ... how can we classify Aikido as an art that is self contained, when it is merely the form that identifys the art?

Just like music, sounds, or even the viewed form in performance, we can easily identify Aikido, but how much more of it is the subtile lessons of movements learn and applied from other endeavors, or lessons?

Grey areas?

Well, let's explore some of the GREY AREAS to see if some enlightenment comes to some our thicker, less experienced practitioners.

The Voices of Experience thread is pretty cold (and officially I won't qualfy to enlist in this forum until 65 years of age, starting my Martial Arts late in life 5 years in aikido, total 12 in MA.) .... so how about some thoughts here, guys and girls?

MikeE
12-06-2002, 10:43 AM
So ... how can we classify Aikido as an art that is self contained, when it is merely the form that identifys the art?
Who classified Aikido as such?

Thalib
12-06-2002, 10:51 AM
To me...

Aikido is a study of principles. The techniques or forms that we learn as martial art in aikido are basically jujutsu techniques. The big difference between aikido and jujutsu is the principle. If the techniques are done without understanding the principle of aiki, one might as well be doing jujutsu.

It's a process. The following is true wether it is within ourselves, with others, or even nature.

At first we learn form and know nothing of aiki, therefore ended up doing it with physical strength and manipulation of the physical body structure.

Then we start to understand how to harmonize physically such as using timing, balance, and such.

Then we start harmonizing mentally. Such as controlling ourselves and knowing the intentions of others which then we could act, not react, upon.

After all that, starting to speak esoterically now, harmonizing spiritually. This is a bit hard for me to grasp.

So far asking myself why things are done the way they are done in aikido really help me understand aikido more deeply.

I have practiced aikido in daily life. Not the techniques though, the principles. I've become more attuned to other people's feelings and intentions (not in the ESP kind of way). Although, sometimes I try to deny and not believe what I am feeling. Sometimes I could feel someone elses sincerity in what they are doing. This is nothing mystical nor ESP, it is Aiki.

Other practices are the way I control my emotions. I don't suppress my emotions, I feel them but I don't let them take control of me. I'm the boss of my mind and body.

Again, to me... forms or techniques are just the outer shell. We still have to peel them layer by layer to get to the center, which is the principle. That's why as we progress, our techniques evolves, because we reached a deeper understanding of those techniques. The evolution is different to each person.

Sadly, some people I know keep adding another layer of the shell instead of peeling them.

Andy
12-06-2002, 11:01 AM
Who classified Aikido as such?
Mr. Straw Man. Maybe you've met him? He seems to be pretty vocal in Bruce's brain.

Bruce Baker
12-06-2002, 03:53 PM
This type of response from Mr. A. Russo is beyond rude, if it were not so childish.

bob_stra
12-06-2002, 11:17 PM
(newbie alert on)

I *feel* *my* aikido will become the continuation of the other movements I've studied. I think the whole shebang forms a sort of common somatic language. This would explain why certain folks have an easier time in learning aikido / judo / soccer / whatever than others.

There's a little written on this topic - General Motor Programs (GMP), schema theory etc.

It's all good.

Or to put it another way - if a aikido technique turns into a judo technique mid way thru, then into a BJJ technique on the ground DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCE (ie: Maximum Efficiency / Mutual Welfare and Benefit), are you practicing AiJuBra or aiki?

gasman
12-07-2002, 10:50 PM
aiki in applied psychology works for me. i deal with tense situations every weekend. instead of confronting an obnoxious guest i calmly reason with him/her (to the degree that they can be reasoned with, f***ed as they are on spirits and (sometimes) drugs.)

Most leave willingly.

Sometimes there is an argument, often after we have left the bar and passed through the front door.

Still, keeping calm and recieving and redirecting is the aiki principles that enables me to resolve most sitations.

Of course, sometimes an IRIMI is required, in the cases where a fight has actually occurred and the instigator has been correctly identified. In these cases the IRIMI needs to be so powerful that the offender is overwhelmed and understands the graveness of his actions. Most often they then volunteer to leave.

Only once I have had a customer attack me, but in hindsight I think I could have avoided that one too.

Hope I make sense, I just got back from my duties, I am tired and I had a couple of pints with the girls after closing hours.

Ma'a el salaama,

Gas.

PhilJ
12-08-2002, 12:23 AM
If someone can help me with the Japanese, I'd love it.

OSensei said something to the effect of "My life is my dojo". (??? kore wa dojo ... something?)

What makes aikido so nifty is its constant state of evolution, as Thalib said. It changes with the times and with the people.

Saotome sensei has a great book, but it's greatly advanced, and discusses how aikido echoes nature, the universe, etc etc.

If anything encapsulates aikido, I'd like to know more about it. I can't imagine anything bigger than the universe, I'm just a thick, puny human. What I do know is that we only misperceive aikido -- we put our flavors on it, yet aikido always "is".

I need a drink. :p

*Phil

Williamross77
12-08-2002, 02:00 AM
If I may...

Aikido to me , Stemming from Samurai tradition, is the full progression of the meaning of Samurai (one who serves), transformed from the past bushi who served as retainers into the modern samurai who serve the Universe. IN this manner it is possible that Aikido exhixts everywhere and nowhere, like lighting in a thunderstorm. It becomes when it has to, to keep the natural and harmonious balance. If something does not serve that universal harmony it is possible that it is not Aikido in another art.

We practice (at our dojo) the external Aiki to Polish the internal Kami Ki, this is of course what it seams the fullest Aikido is about... less about movement and more about Agatsu...maybe?

read the Art of Peace for yourself and see if you agree.

Bruce Baker
12-08-2002, 08:38 AM
Not quite the direction I wanted to go ...

In my experience of training in various arts, I have encountered many of the same training principles as found in Aikido.

Learning to intercept movements, working for the good of the community, using the least amount of force to resolve the situation, making yourself better by studying and using martial arts but not for selfish means or for gain .... etc, etc.

What is different in many of the training methods is the attitude to physically dominate while trying to foster good will toward your traing partners.

In Aikido, we dominate as a means of training to understand harmony rather than to bring about harmony by domination.

The difference between Fist Law, and working to better society ... but what I was trying to get at was the actual training, techniques, and the implimentation of said techniques and forms.

Another question of "Catching Punches" or in effect the effort of intercepting offensive movements with blending and using the movements of offense to your advantage was the side bar of the my thoughts upon this subject.

We do use many of the same techniques found in judo and jujitsu, but we use them in a different manner by using movement to accentuate our Aikido rather than physically dominating our opponent or using punches and kicks.

Let the fool's own movements do him/her in ... simple ... yet effective.

But how does this compare to training in other arts and hearing the exact same training as you find in Aikido, or being told to blend in order to effectively use the technique being practice?

I guess, I am being over zealous in my attempt to show that many people do come from other martial arts to learn aikido, and it is very difficult to keep from hurting some of them because they use a lot of force or attempt to thwart practice ... only to hurt themselves.

We have had a couple of people come to practice who are former students of Aikido, plus other arts, and I found that they had to be treated with kidd gloves as not to injure them. When my daughter, who is 21, complained of one person not only doing the technique different from the teacher, but doing it wrong, I rethought my position of letting it go.

So, in the context of learning the right form of blending and the wrong form of blending, how does this apply to correcting our Aikido? Is there some incorrect teaching that leans toward karate, fist law, or is it just me reviewing the comparisons of BJJ, kickboxing, and other striking or grappling arts practiced by some of our forum posters?

happysod
12-09-2002, 02:54 AM
Sorry Bruce, read the thread a couple of times - I think it's because my brain's still on holiday - but I just don't get what you're actually hoping for as a response. Is it a

a) "aikido" as a distinct martial art - discuss

b) how to teach aikido differently from other martial arts

c) how to not hurt other-style martial artists in the aikido dojo.

Not being facetious - just slow.