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Kieun
12-04-2002, 09:45 AM
Have a question. Have been reading up on Ueshiba a lot (since work has kept me from practice for two weeks!!! ARGH!) and given the amount of training and practice he has done, I find it interesting to find that there is little to nothing about anyone he trained with. I mean his training brothers and sisters, buddies, friends, partners, kohai and sempai, etc. Does anyone have any information about that?

diesel
12-04-2002, 10:04 AM
Have a question. Have been reading up on Ueshiba a lot (since work has kept me from practice for two weeks!!! ARGH!) and given the amount of training and practice he has done, I find it interesting to find that there is little to nothing about anyone he trained with. I mean his training brothers and sisters, buddies, friends, partners, kohai and sempai, etc. Does anyone have any information about that?
His training partners? Uchi desi? Those would all be his kohai. If you have read up on O'Sensei, Takeda would have been a "sempai", I guess. O'Sensei also studied numerous other martial arts; judo, jodo, kendo, jujitsu, and others I am sure.

O'Sensei's book Budo, mentions names of those he studied under.

For those that studied under O'Sensei; Shioda, Chiba, Saito and Saotome sensei's just to name a few. There is quite a list.

Cheers,

Eric

Bud
12-04-2002, 10:23 AM
do you mean O Sensei's actual training partners? The one who he practiced shiho nage on as he studied under Takeda?

Good question. I guess a check of the Daito Ryu records will provide some clue as to the names of O Sensei's classmates.

I can only imagine, with both awe and terror, what it was like to have a young and very physically strong Ueshiba as a training partner. Must have been nasty..

akiy
12-04-2002, 10:35 AM
I can only imagine, with both awe and terror, what it was like to have a young and very physically strong Ueshiba as a training partner. Must have been nasty..
If I remember correctly, Tatsuo Kimira writes in his book "Toumei na Chikara" that according to his teacher Yukiyoshi Sagawa (who trained with Sokaku Takeda at the time), Morihei Ueshiba was seen to cry in the corner of the dojo after receiving some techniques applied to him by Takeda...

-- Jun

BC
12-04-2002, 01:12 PM
If I remember correctly, Tatsuo Kimira writes in his book "Toumei na Chikara" that according to his teacher Yukiyoshi Sagawa (who trained with Sokaku Takeda at the time), Morihei Ueshiba was seen to cry in the corner of the dojo after receiving some techniques applied to him by Takeda...

-- Jun
Based upon my limited knowledge, I think I would have been much more terrified to receive techniques from Sokaku Takeda than Morihei Ueshiba O Sensei.

I think I remember another story about when Sokaku Takeda came to visit O Sensei once, that O Sensei tried to evade or hide from him. Makes one wonder...

akiy
12-04-2002, 01:39 PM
If I remember correctly, Tatsuo Kimira writes in his book "Toumei na Chikara"
That should have been Tatsuo Kimura, not Kimira...

-- Jun

Edward
12-04-2002, 02:45 PM
If I remember correctly, Tatsuo Kimira writes in his book "Toumei na Chikara" that according to his teacher Yukiyoshi Sagawa (who trained with Sokaku Takeda at the time), Morihei Ueshiba was seen to cry in the corner of the dojo after receiving some techniques applied to him by Takeda...

-- Jun
Well, Osensei was indeed a human being, not a god or a machine. I find nothing disturbing in this story except that I would really like to know the author's purpose behind relating this story, and how accurate it is. Did his teacher exagerate, lie, or tell the truth. We also don't know what was Mr. Sagawa's reaction when Takeda Sokaku applied techniques on him. Did he laugh and ask for more?

Edward
12-04-2002, 02:49 PM
Based upon my limited knowledge, I think I would have been much more terrified to receive techniques from Sokaku Takeda than Morihei Ueshiba O Sensei.

I think I remember another story about when Sokaku Takeda came to visit O Sensei once, that O Sensei tried to evade or hide from him. Makes one wonder...
No need to wonder. It seems that Takeda used to spend many months every time at Osensei's home, eat his food, drink his sake, spend his money, and treat him and his wife like servants. It is no wonder if Osensei tried to escape from him. I read somewhere that at one stage, Osensei got so annoyed by Takeda's behaviour that he asked him to leave.

Chris Li
12-04-2002, 04:15 PM
Well, Osensei was indeed a human being, not a god or a machine. I find nothing disturbing in this story except that I would really like to know the author's purpose behind relating this story, and how accurate it is. Did his teacher exagerate, lie, or tell the truth. We also don't know what was Mr. Sagawa's reaction when Takeda Sokaku applied techniques on him. Did he laugh and ask for more?
The impression I got from the book was:

1) Sagawa was opinionated, but straightforward, and probably fairly honest in relating his stories.

2) He was of the "men don't cry" school, so Ueshiba crying was seen with some contempt.

BTW, that wasn't the only negative story related about Morihei Ueshiba. He also relates an encounter after the war in which he grabs M. Ueshiba's wrists (after some convincing - Ueshiba didn't seem to want to do it) in order to test his "Aiki", but M. Ueshiba was unable to move him. Apparently, M. Ueshiba then invited him to teach at hombu, which he initially agreed to, but later changed his (Sagawa's) mind.

Best,

Chris

MikeE
12-04-2002, 09:31 PM
I love a good character beating....Now give me some proof.

Not that we all aren't vulnerable at some point.

Hugs & Kisses,

Edward
12-04-2002, 10:29 PM
It seems that the only man in the world who has seen all this is Mr. Sagawa. One would doubt his motives, and actually I can find some such as dojo rivalry, Osensei being known for being Takeda's best student (according to Takeda's son and Kondo's interviews), jealousy for the fame that Osensei has made to himself...etc. Actually I have heard this guy's name twice in my life, and both times it was related to what he says about Osensei. He doesn't seem to be famous for his martial arts abilities, at least not outside of Japan. I wonder if they were all three alone in the dojo, and how come if there were other people present, they choose to have the decency and the good manners not to talk about it, while Mr. Sagawa chose to brag about it. I am not saying the related story is not true. I just doubt it, but even if it was, there is no shame in having cried out of pain, or not being able to move someone. Osensei's genius was not in being the strongest man in Japan, as some people like to believe. It is of having created modern aikido, in they same league as Kano and Funakoshi, and the international success it has become.

Chris Li
12-04-2002, 11:45 PM
It seems that the only man in the world who has seen all this is Mr. Sagawa. One would doubt his motives, and actually I can find some such as dojo rivalry, Osensei being known for being Takeda's best student (according to Takeda's son and Kondo's interviews), jealousy for the fame that Osensei has made to himself...etc. Actually I have heard this guy's name twice in my life, and both times it was related to what he says about Osensei. He doesn't seem to be famous for his martial arts abilities, at least not outside of Japan. I wonder if they were all three alone in the dojo, and how come if there were other people present, they choose to have the decency and the good manners not to talk about it, while Mr. Sagawa chose to brag about it. I am not saying the related story is not true. I just doubt it, but even if it was, there is no shame in having cried out of pain, or not being able to move someone. Osensei's genius was not in being the strongest man in Japan, as some people like to believe. It is of having created modern aikido, in they same league as Kano and Funakoshi, and the international success it has become.
The crying event in question was on the occasion of M. Ueshiba's introduction to S. Takeda, and so far as I know, they were more or less alone in the dojo (Takeda, Sagawa, and Ueshiba, but Yoshida Kotaro was probably there too) . Sagawa is well known for his martial arts abilities in Japan, but he went well out of the way to avoid fame and publicity - I know of one instance where even Kondo couldn't get in to see him, his dojo was so completely closed. Tokimune actually designated him as the 36th soke of Daito-ryu and Sokaku Takeda's successor in 1954, but he gave the title and position back to Tokimune. IMO, doesn't seem the type to be jealous of someone else's fame.

Were the stories true? Well, there's no proof, of course, but my impression of the text (which is available on Amazon, by the way) was that it had the ring of authenticity. FWIW, I thought that it was refreshing to read something that portrayed M. Ueshiba in a more human (and fallible) light rather than the normal fair, which was mostly written by his (somewhat less than objective) followers.

Best,

Chris

Edward
12-05-2002, 04:17 AM
Chris,

Is the text in question translated in english? I tried to find it on amazon but couldn't, so I presume that the book is in Japanese only.

Cheers,

Edward

Chris Li
12-05-2002, 05:00 AM
Chris,

Is the text in question translated in english? I tried to find it on amazon but couldn't, so I presume that the book is in Japanese only.

Cheers,

Edward
Nope, no English yet.

Best,

Chris

Kieun
12-05-2002, 06:33 AM
Thanks for your replies. I guess what I was looking for was any information about people who had actually trained with Ueshiba when he himself was a student. For example, if you take students of Ueshiba himself, you can say that Shioda, Tomiki, Mochizuki, etc could be considered training brothers becasue they all learned from the same man about the same time (I could be a little off on some of them in terms of dates, but I think you get the idea) and thus they trained with each other - they have shared experiences in their training. You don't really hear about that about Ueshiba (with the exception of Mr.Sagawa). Or is there? Maybe I just haven't found the right source - if you can direct me, then I'd much appreciate it.

ross_l
12-05-2002, 07:44 AM
What about the founder of Hapkido, Grand Master Choi, Yong Sul? If some versions about his training with Takeda are true, then he most certainly would have trained with Ueshiba-sensei. It is also interesting that both men chose the same name for their art. Hapkido translates exactly the same as Aikido in english.